The current Holden problem has Tony Abbott stuck in a very bad situation that I doubt he can find a way out of without some heavy damage.

If he sticks to his current line
- Holden will close and with it the long held dream of an "aussie" car.
- the bogans and revheads will be incandescent with rage. Especially when they realise it means the end of icons like Bathurst.
- there will be a steep rise in unemployment payments especially in South Australia.
- he will be vilified as "un-Australian", uncaring and anti-business.

If he submits to Holdens demands and hands over more cash he will be
- seen to be backflipping once again. Never a good look.
- flayed alive by the neocrazies for what they are already calling "socialism".
- Have every other business that is a big employer or important to a particular region, lining up with their blackmail notes in hand. Think bluescope steel, Qantas, the few remaining food manufacturers, hell even Mcdonalds could threaten to walk if they dont get their cut. And Abbott will have to pay up every time.

Cant say I have much sympathy for him. More a case of you get what you deserve. LOL

As for Holden I dont know where I stand.
I dont like subsidies or cars or putting people out of work.
I think the whole Ford/Holden great Aussie car thing was all just a huge con.
I think it is important to keep the skills and tools etc we have built up over many years and not just throw away all that experience and people just because the money is wrong.

What do you all think?

It is a difficult situation no matter who the Prime Minister may be.
The way we are headed tourism, mining and farming are going to be our lot as it appears little can be manufactured in Australia on a competitive basis.
I feel we are headed toward a big shake up as to life style. It is not just the fault of governments, we the people have had our heads in the sand for quite some time.
I think a reality check for us all is not too far in the future.
SD

Dear Mikk,

Holden is an Australian icon. We can't keep losing our
manufacturing industries to overseas interests.
With a loss of manufacturing, unemployment in this country
will increase, and the government will have the responsibility
of supporting the unemployed. So they may as well put that
financial support into supporting the manufacturing industry
and maintaining employment. One way or another it's going
to cost.

Foxy,
Holden is an overseas interest as is Ford and Toyota.
Icons belong in churches and are for those that rely on faith not facts.
Holdens now cost too much to build in Oz, that's a fact and they also need to sell a lot more.
If we all bought Holdens we could save the situation maybe, but that is never going to happen.
SD

Or he could grow some ball and reverse the years of state control that have decimated this countries ability to produce. He could tell the unions to go screw themselves and put the workers back on regular pays, plenty of people looking for full time work! Then he could tell management they'll get no more tax payer money and that they need to compete like everyone else. Then they might actually make cars again that Aussies want to own!

None of this will happen of course, so bye, bye Holden, it was nice knowing you. And I'm a die hard Holden fan!

The fact that all this is happening is a grave concern for all in this current climate. It shows just how far down the shithole Australia is!

There is one very good possibility from this.

We could now close South Australia down. We could stop building lousy ships, [subs] there & inflicting them on our long suffering navy. We could in fact correct the ancient mistake of ever settling in South Oz at all.

All that water they demand for their artificial fresh water sky lake could be returned to the states where the rain fell, & it can be put to a more useful & productive purpose.

Our Commodores & Falcons are some of the best cars built anywhere in the world, sold at prices the Germans would love to be able to match, but when governments, national state & local stopped buying them, & turned to cheaper imports the writing was on the wall.

They are dinosaurs in a world that wants lap dogs, RM Williams boots in a sea of cheap sneakers.

So RIP Holden, you are now part of history, & no longer wanted.

Hell even I, a qualified rev head, wouldn't buy one. As a bloke who drove for the original Holden Dealers Team at Bathurst in 1968, that is saying something.

One has to admit, our welfare & union crippled country can no longer produce a car at a competitive price. Like an old clockwork toy, we are winding down to oblivion. The Oz that was once the best place on earth, is like Holden of the 60s, no more, & will not return. Us oldies should give thanks that we were so lucky to live it, our kids are not going to be.

Give them the 500 mill that labor had in mind. Or lose up to 50,000 jobs Holden is a victim of cheap imports and a govt; that does not bye local.
So does Abbott let them walk away or does he fix the problem. If he has the ability.

Heck, it's only money! Why can't our Fed just do some quantitative easing by printing a few hundred billions of 'new' money - not by buying debt, just cut out the middleman and print it.
This would simultaneously reduce the value of the $A, which is something the Fed has been wanting to happen anyway, and enable Tony and Joe to prop-up Holden, Qantas, and Rio's northern alumina smelting operation.
Why not go for it? What's the down-side?

So our superannuation funds will be worth less in the global market, and retirement savings take a hit, but surely our stock market will rally to new highs, and thus offset the temporary down-sides?

Of course, it would help enormously if our labour market was more competitive anyway, so there would have to be a wages/salaries freeze to stave-off any moves to scrape back the resultant reduction in 'real' wages - afterall, why should any reduction in buying power be limited to retirees and super funds? One in, all in.
Honestly, can't we all tighten the belt a notch or two, put the new plasma or plastic surgery on hold for the sake of good ol' Oz?

A new paradigm for Oz? Why not?

By world standards Holden has always been a lousy car and from its inception has been foreign owned; it was only marginally better than the bomb from which much of its early design came, the horrendous Chev.

Buyers of imported cars subsidized GMH in the past, it's time to write Holden off as a lapse of historical note.

Any manufacturer that makes large V8s in this day has lost the plot and working on Holdens is a nightmare although most modern cars are just as bad in this respect.

Having said that I must admit to owning a Statesman which is very economical for a 3.8 litre machine.

"""
Heck, it's only money! Why can't our Fed just do some quantitative easing by printing a few hundred billions of 'new' money - not by buying debt, just cut out the middleman and print it.
"""

I think they refer to it as a currency war. It's well underway. I wonder why we aren't playing in this one, or are we?

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-11-15/unspoken-toxic-secret-heart-shadow-banking-self-securitization-central-banks

"""
Any manufacturer that makes large V8s in this day has lost the plot
"""

V8's still sell all over the world, I own a couple myself, wouldn't have it any other way!

Dear Shaggy Dog,

The reference to Holden as an Australian "Icon?"
in my earlier post was not intended in the way
you used it. I was not referring to sacred images
in this instance merely to the symbol that the Holden
used to be and still is for many people. There are
more meanings to the term "Icon" than the narrow one
you infer. You should look them up.

Dear Is Mise,

We also own a Statesman, and love it!
Ah well!

yep no doubt partly as a result of the unions/Labour resisting workchoices and Abbott being so weak as to be me too. And people are dumb enough to ask why. So selfish that future generations miss out on work as we continue to feed ABC and the Thompsons of this world.

For years we had the tradition of running Falcons as the shopping trolley.

Eventually we had to change because Ford senior management would never listen to their own dealers to make simple changes to very obvious and annoying design faults, largely ergonomic. Examples could be:

- the over-large blind spot for the driver from the stupid pillar supporting a too long swept windscreen. Ford had been trying for years to 'educate' Aussies towards the Taurus, an exceptionally ugly car sold in Europe which they wanted to import instead of building Falcons;

- stupidly heavy front doors that wrenched arms when the car was on a slope. Again, Ford was trying to import the Taurus design etc;

- the poorly padded seats above the large hump that made the 5th and middle seat in the rear a 'numb-bum' hazard, and also required that passenger to sit with legs uncomfortably parted; and

- needless bulky shell that added weight and made parking difficult, while offering no more room inside.

The sad fact is that Ford and GMH made what they wanted to make, were very grudging in accepting and often refused reasonable warranty requests and their dealers themselves made dough out of pre-delivery, the so-called first complimentary 'service' (where they did SFA) and out of skimming from general services.

While I might have some feeling for (say) a 1964 Holden, it is more nostalgia for lost youth. I am damned sure I would never want to own one again. What can I say about car companies that only introduced disc brakes and airconditioning, or even a half-decent radio, when sales were affected by Japanese imports, and preferred to lobby government for socialist protection instead?

Mr y'abbott is in a no win situation. He dug himself a nice hole and now he is scrambling around trying to get out.
Gives holder the money he saves holden, no money an he is the Prime Minister who shot Bambi, forever. No amount of re programing of websites and deleting speeches or telling Rupert not to ask difficult questions.
Ford is on the way out and by the looks of things so will holden. y'abbott doesn't care he is on a crusade to leave his mark on this country good or bad.
We loose so much to overseas be it cars or farmland. manufacturing, call centre jobs, ICT jobs. When will it all stop, under this govt not anytime soon! But we have a PM who is adamant he always right and never wrong....ever!

Raw mustard, that's common sense and common sense just doesn't fit with the union power brokers.

Perhaps once we do loose the likes of Holden, Ford and Qantas, they may wake up to themselves.

These clowns have to come to terms with the reality that while wages may increase in good times, they must be allowed to decrease in bad times, such as we are experiencing now.
Fat chance of it happening though, evidence being in the fact that Bill Shorten and co honestly think they did a great job over the past six years and, that we are in great shape, the envy of the world they say.

I fear we will have to wait until unemployment is out of control and the people revolt in mass.

Unfortunately though, it will be too late by that stage.

Abbott will be the mastermind that created all this unemployment butch is talking about. The noalition is in govt; not labor or anyone else.
Holden have not made any decision, it's only what you read in the paper and Abbott has taken that as gospel, instead of checking it out himself.
Another case of shooting from the hip, then putting his foot in his mouth. The figure was supposed to be 500 million, not the 250 that Abbott is offering. It is all in Abbott's hands if he is good enough.
Ask yourself why does Hockey want to lift the debt level by 200 billion $. After what they were sprucing, before the election of course.

ode..to gm

BY LAW..a trademan..OWN..his tools
dont allow the TOOLS..to go overseas
[give them./.a tax credit..an/iou..if anything]

importantly..for historic completeness..all the holden molds etc
must be archived..in situ..much..like a crime scene..that then evolves..into a huge car museum..acers and acres of holdens..with all the spar-parts..to keep them rebuilt

think..like cuba..lots of jobs jobs jobs in revealing THE FULL story
[in working condition]..BUT THE LINE STAYS HERE*..wee at least own..the tools.[and their 'storage'/boxes]..a COMPLETE story.

thousands of books..lots of car nuts..with BIG money*

Tony Abbott has, as Labor did with the GFC , struck an early patch of job loss and events he did not see.

But few of us who did not vote for him should be surprised that he remains the man he always was and is.
Right now he would be quite mad to even think about a Double Dissolution election.

Based on these comment's Holden and indeed any manufacturing is unable to compete with the $2.50 an hour wage rate. So by implication then we become a service industry.

A series of big holes owned and mined by overseas venture capitalists, productive farmland owned by overseas interests and we Aussies can serve coffee and burgers. The remaining intelligent types go off shore and Australia as we know implodes.

Wide open to foreign takeovers and a complicit government ruled by a media baron who wants to appoint who he sees fit and proper to laughingly rule/govern another part of his empire!

Wonderful, this is a recipe for disaster. All the blue tie set put up your hands in shame. You have condemned your country to servitude and reliance on overseas interests dictating what and how we do anything.

Belly, "Right now he [Tony Abbott] would be quite mad to even think about a Double Dissolution election"

Heh, heh, so you believe the reverse as usual. I agree, a double dissolution would be a winner for Tony Abbott.

Labor has chosen electoral un-winnable policies. Bill Shorten is a boy sent to a man's job. Oops, make that a womyn's job - because his deputy Tanya Plibersek and the Grrls of Emily's List are honing the gelding shears to the usual blunt edge.

'Snicker-snack' go the gelding shears, look out Little Bill, you will soon be Shortened in the crown jewels department.

very curious,

Frankly, I'd reserve the brick bats for the over-paid CEOs and company boards, and for the intransigent unions.

If you go back to my earlier post of 7 December 2013 7:30:58 PM, my own and my extended family always bought Falcons, largely for their engine and drive train. It was Ford's intransigence in refusing to listen to customers, the workers' crass stupidity in not doing quality work and the dealers who were always too greedy, who convinced us over a long period to buy other makes instead.

Ford did a hell of a lot and deliberately, to lose sales and customers of generations.

Make no mistake about it, if Australian made is quality and what the customer wants, it will sell. For example, Toyota Landcruiser are expensive vehicles, especially with the restrictive taxes, but they have high build quality and durability, and they do the job they were designed to do.

On the other hand, Ford couldn't even get the doors right on a passenger car (Falcon), the same make re-introduced a large blind spot for the driver.l Looking down from above, a falcon has a metal roof smaller than a tiny four-banger sedan. It presented very large areas of glass (and the passengers) to the sun, in Australia! How stupid was that?

Ford lost customers because its senior management were not interested in what the customer wanted, ever. Ask the dealers. But those senior managers are paid millions and doubtless had the best conditions and bonuses going.

There are no winners in this situation.
General Motors is a company in profit and a small part of its profit
would enable GMH to continue.
They are looking for the Aus taxpayer to make that contribution but not
giving the Aus govt any interest in the company for its financial input.
The contribution will have to go on forever.
It just seems to be impossible, something has to change.

What we are seeing is the universal wind down that is happening everywhere.
The problem with QANTAS is the same for all airlines and I heard a
report that there only a couple of investment grade airlines;
United(?) and Lufthansa. All other airlines are junk investments.
Ultimately the whole airline industry is doomed.
Hard to believe I know, and I won't blame any of you for thinking I am
stupid and in need of care. There have been studies by physiologists
into the "Denial" attitude when the evidence is there.
That is an interesting discussion on its own,

There are a couple of books that I recommend that you all read as
they will help you understand what is going on.

Your World is About to Get a Whole Lot Smaller by Jeff Rubin and
The End of Growth by Richard Heinberg.

bazz..said something..re airlines being DOOMED
what rubbish..the planes are there..the staff is trained
airports are built..and the aircraft..have resale values

lower buy-in..means less debt servicing
means cheaper travel..which means fullplanes

think..lik a toll way
its built..who owns the debt..is irrelivant..
unless they spent too much..[and they have]

..in fact every real asset..is so over..indebted
we simply need capitalism..sort it out..once they exceed our ability to pay..[the debtors go away]..and the asset remain's..

and..now can pay..its way

as for gm..they got huge bebt..by buying machines
those machines WERE TAX DEDUCTED..WE OWN THEM[or rather the tax office does]

or else its REVEALED fraud
[trouble being..they borrowed..our cash..stol from us
stole from..our CoMPULSORY SUPER*..and banked.'savings'[bail-in]next year..thats why 65 billion has gone[was withdrawn]..from banks again..this year..

the ones inthe know know
and have taken..it from/the bank..but money printing
takeover mania to find a safe store of value..sees an ever bigger bubble

one day..the bubble bursts..and you get shares..in a bank
who mortgaged your other shares to the fed[owned by the same banks

but who..used the shares..to..do,..share trading..via the house of settlements..who borrowed..the cash..to buy [and mortgauge]..the same shares..so we cvan trade./.THE PROMISE..of a share..held who knows where

its all self companies..so thieves can drain them dry
put them safely into a tax free family trust

all trusts should be taxed double the highest 'personal tax'..just fot the fraud..it helped set up..any money moving into OR OUT-of..a tax free zone ditto..

bankers stole the tools of govt
govt should control..money creation
[the only LAWFUL.tender is coin..not credit/nor paper/nor shares[they are..promise notes..but coin=the value].

Hi Mikk,

If you and your fellow travelers are going to continue to link everything you fear in your lives with a demonized target, in your case Tony Abbott, you will need to find some new material or start the process of critical thinking.

As fellow travelers you promote that you are “the thinkers” of our society and pontificate your “objective truths”, which are founded on a socialized (moral and value laden) fabric. Whilst these can be of certain value to issues, they are relevant only after critical analysis and not as a substitute.

Your greatest fear is the thinking capacity and rationality of the Plebs because it is you who are strangled within your own rhetoric, your adopted perspectives.

Some of the hallmarks of your analytical dysfunction include:-

A polarized us-versus-them mentality, which causes conflict with the wider society.

Crisis Creation, tactics designed to create or deepen confusion, fear, guilt or doubt.

Creating a false sense of righteousness by pointing to the shortcomings of the outside world.

Opposer Warnings, you believe that your selected target, Tony Abbott, is a "Satan" that will cause catastrophic problems if he cannot solve all the problems you have listed for him, but actually your greatest fear that he might solve them. (Otherwise known as “reflective angst”)

You exhibit extreme obsessiveness regarding your orthodoxy, resulting in the exclusion of almost every practical consideration.

Whenever you and your fellow travelers are criticized or questioned it is characterized as "persecution".

You and your friends demonstrate a propensity for rhetoric, platitudes, loaded language, thought-terminating clichés, rejection of rational analysis, absence of critical thinking, aversion to constructive criticism, denial of rationalization or justification and your embrace of wishful thinking.

You do this because you know your thinking process was bypassed and replaced with moral and value based criteria, therefore any conclusions you draw are impossible to defend and must be reinforced with rhetoric delivered with angst, venom and belligerence.

Turn your rhetoric engine off and start thinking.

on the beach

Gladly give them all a spray, no discrimination with this topic. We have family in the US who worked for Ford in their property maintenance teams, in other words painting the buildings, lawns gardens etc. (amongst other family in other employment)

They told us 12 yrs ago Ford had dropped the ball and were building cars folks didn't like. This we have all witnessed as Ford well and truly dropped the ball in the last 10yrs.

Irrespective of the facts of the past, we find jobs aka industries being vacuumed out of this country and far away. We will be a land of consumers not producers.

Comments on this thread allude to greedy unions etc etc. Plain truth here lot of govt interference too. Lot of small minded greedy Federal Governments with an eye on cheap media grabs.

Am not one for consumerism, For example: if it gets to the stage where I buy my milk from an US or German or UK supermarket chain, trucked by an overseas transport company, grown (for want of better phrase) on Australian soil by overseas owned cows on overseas owned land. We have a serious problem....Don't laugh part of this 'equation' we are already doing!

Am all for industry, am not for a poverty line wage for people doing the leg work whilst management and owners swan around in luxury. Its frankly a regressive move in Australia. IF you can live on $2.50 an hour, working 4 nightshifts a week do so. As I said we have family in the US and they are struggling. Men and women in their 40's who should be at the top of their game, but pushed out their chosen career path.

Tony abbott the man who killed bambi, coming to a Murdoch media outlet soon. Kids! look out for the overseas made silcon toy with your meal deals

Hi very curious (but not curious enough),

The USA has been steadily repatriating much of its overseas industry and commerce over the last couple of years. It is shifting back to the USA those industries that were shifted to “low labour cost” markets previously, they are now shifting back to “low energy cost” markets which is playing to their own competitive advantage. Gas prices alone are 60% less in the USA than in the EU. Even VW’s new plant will be in the USA!

We should also recognize that if Australian customers of Ford/Holden are not buying them in sufficient quantities to keep them viable we can hardly lay the blame on their foreign owners.

I do however think that both manufacturers locally stuffed up on marketing. They made the classic and I suspect fatal error, of not knowing who their competitors were. Whilst Holden and Ford we so busy fighting each other over a dwindling market, they let their real competitors grow the new markets.

We can all pick our favorite villain to blame however, this has been a collective effort by every player and who are all equally to blame.

No worries OUG, I understand your shock as it is a shocking conclusion.
Never the less that is where it is all heading.
As the number of passengers starts declining due to the increasing
cost of fares the number of bankruptures, mergers and co sharing will increase.
Ultimately the airlines will only cater for 1st class business travelers, and politicians.
There are a couple of areas where declining traffic is already noticeable
but I think that was because of rail competition.
There are only two investment grade airlines, the rest including
QANTAS are junk investments.
I saw the writing on the wall and sold my QANTAS shares when they were over $5 !
At the time QANTAS was considered a good investment.
Know anyone who recommends buying airline shares ?

You know, it was inconceivable to Romans that Rome would collapse.

The reality is we have spent the past twenty odd years ruining the joint, and we are now starting to see the mess unfold.

One the one hand we automate the car plants, then, we turn around and pay operators $100K to do less than they used to.

At the end of the day we simply have to accept that manufacturing here in Oz is finished.

I heard somewhere that if Qantas cut wages by just 3%, the company would be saved.

The unions just won't allow flexabillity and accept that while wages may go up in good times, they must be allowed to fall in tough times.

Curious I'm sure your family of gardeners in the US know all about the auto industry, just as you do, & their thinking is just as superficial as yours.

You are right, these manufacturers have crippled themselves by giving wages & conditions they can no longer afford, to their staff in the good times. This is a mistake our miners made, & are now recognizing.

Our auto industry is in a high cost country, & the US industry developed it's own high cost environment with the magnificent retirement benefits they gave to their employees. Here ours compete against imports, in the us, they compete against recently established foreign owned manufacturers with much lower wages, & no hangover of retirement benefits, the real killer in the US.

Cars are really all the same. 4 wheels, 4 lots of suspension, brakes etc. for each, 4 windows, 4 motors to work those windows, the same steering, air conditioning & on it goes.

The difference in cost for a larger car, with a bit more tin, & a small car is not that great, but the sale price is. These high cost manufacturers can't compete on low cost cars, they can only survive with the high price & profit larger cars. That this strategy no longer works apart from SUVs in the states, is simply forecasting the end of an era.

rehutub, "One the one hand we automate the car plants, then, we turn around and pay operators $100K to do less than they used to"

The federal public service does it with style. They got rid of regional and low level (work production) positions and reclassified the management jobs every time they had 'savings' from losing low level clerical jobs. They did the same where functions were out-sourced, where the managers who couldn't manage before were reclassified upwards to 'manage' the private contractors. Now it is almost impossible to find a job that isn't 'management'. But management of what?

Over the years the Department of Veterans Affairs for example lost its large hospitals, rehabilitation and clients (eventual death), but still managed to reclassify its executive staff, while losing lower level employees. It would be interesting to compare the numbers and levels of 'management' staff (management/employee ratios) with (say) 1960 or 1970.

But then the federal pollies don't do so bad either, with a proliferation of ministers, assistant ministers and other categories that demand higher pay. That is on top of their elevations in pay, which really ought be shown in a chart form over years. Again, compare then and now and explain the difference.

Some ones loss will be some ones gain. Get rid of Joyce first. He pulled Jetstar down to nothing.
Maybe they need to bye back shares, to decrease the amount of parasites in the food chain.
Doesn't British Airways own half of Qantas.
You will find only domestic airlines have au cabin staff not international. So i don't see how wages are going to help you. Joyce blames long-haul for the decrease in profits.

If a business needs public subsidies to survive ( and pay dividends to shareholders) it shouldn't be in business.
Holden and QANTAS have priced themselves out of the market and that is due to union demands for excessive wage levels.
The only ones losing their jobs here are union members and its about time.
If they all took a 25-30 percent pay cut the businesses would survive but then that would mean no fuel for the family boat or the wife's car or the new patio or what ever else they feel they should have above normal expectations.
Unionists put themselves in the position that exists today let them suffer.

Unions can demand what they like, doesn't mean they will get any of it. It's up to management whether they get anything at all.
When was the last strike at Holden or Qantas. Domestic pilots do national and foreign do international. The same plane to England can have several different pilots.

There are very few companies in the world that last more than 100 years. They either fade away, become irrelevant or get taken over. That's the way of the world. Even large manufacturing companies don't last because we are always changing and developing. I wonder whether Apple will still be here in 2113. I doubt it.

It's a shame if we lose Holden or Qantas, but we can't be sentimental. Other companies inevitably rise and take their place in other areas and we certainly shouldn't subsidise them with public money.

....Unions can demand what they like, doesn't mean they will get any of it. It's up to management whether they get anything at all.

Sorry 579, but that's a load of rubbish.

Unions are the ones who continue to push and push and even push harder, knowing full well they are pushing businesses over the edge.

Rather than be content with a small wage rise, unions usually push for double what they actually get and have no regard for the needs of the business while making their often unaffordable demands.

That is a load of rubbish because you want it to be butch. There's no bigger load of rubbish than the lot that are in power now. Unemployment will treble in no time with Abbott he is really struggling to come to terms with the job. He would rather be on his bike.
We don't have a debt ceiling now that should worry you, and every body else.

Spin Doc
Am very curious, no problems on that score. Have been an investigator with several organisations and have a sister who is a lawyer.

I like you had heard that the USA was slowly doing as you say, from the chinese and other countries that were manufacturing essentials and consumer goods, its a very good idea. In light of the 'cheaper knock-offs' that inevitably flow back into the USA and Australia too.

More power to them, get as mush as they can back. Abbott will no doubt get his Treasurer Lil Hoss Hockey to fumble his way around into saying its not a Government priority!

Has been "Curious I'm sure your family of gardeners in the US know all about the auto industry, just as you do, & their thinking is just as superficial as yours."

Maybe you deserve a little education on that score. My uncle was maintenance supervisor for several plants. this included gardens and his award winning roses. As for the comment he made, it was widely held on the shop floor and across the company that Ford has misjudged their plans for newer vehicles.

Except those with the actual power to make decisions, who gradually over paid themselves. The company and their employees suffered for their stupidity.

My knowledge of the automobile industry clearly isn't broad as yours. But had I known this was a pi55ing contest I'd brought an umbrella. Be a smart alec hasbeen, but end of the day you are the one looking silly.

Yes rehctub 579 is wrong, actually he's realistic. You are in the wrong.
Union bashing next to sport marginally closer than politics is a right wing sport for people who are always right and never wrong.

Can't see the other side and more often than not there are good points made, that they ignored is a major problem. The other side is not your enemy, provocation won't get your points across. I have negotiated and found that its not that hard unless the other side is completely unreasonable, blinkered and unlikely to change short of a cardiac arrest! So,go to court and who is that hurting, everyone and why cos someone always wants to be right and never wrong, until a judge says so and even then... blood pressure goes up and as has often occurred the owner sells up as they haven't got their own way.

So I won't change, neither will 579, neither will many others. Doubtful you will either.

VC, the present mess at Holden, brought about by unions, should be a lesson for all.

The unions won't budge from their position and the workers are most likely wishing for them to close because they will receive up to a half a million redundancy payout, thanks to the unions.

The unions win, the workers win, but Australia looses.

Wages should increase when profits/sales are up, but they should also decrease when times are tough.

They don't.

You have rocks in your head if you think that would ever work butch.
Abbott's ideas are working taking back the wage rise from the lowest paid workers we have. Now the users of child care will pay for their wage rise. Abbott has been judged as junk by newspoll. When the DD happens we can sort this mess out. Hockey Pine and Abbott a bunch of amaters with no direction and no policy.

Ok 579, so do you think the Abbott gov should continue to unconditionally continue to support the car industry?

As for the low paid you mention, a production worker on up to $100K per year is hardly what I would class as a low paid worker, because after all, the Holden workers are the ones I'm talking about, not child care workers.

As a coumtry, we are in melt down amd still you hide your head in the sand.

The signs have been there for several years, you just need the ability to read between the lines, something you appear not to have.

maybe Mr Abbott might be able to privatise the ABC in order to create a little balance. The obscene tax payer funded wages for the socialist could then be used to subsidise people doing real work.

Holden gone,QANTAS going, Rio up north going the card house is starting to crumble and its all down to the unions and their belief that their members are worth more than the creators of wealth.
Some of these union bosses should read Ayn Rand {Atlas Shrugged] and get some idea of what happens when you push the boss too far.
No place for overpowered utes here in Australia anyway. Now we have a trade agreement with South Korea just watch the cheap, well made small cars flood in to Aus.

I am upset that Holden appears to be gone.
I was hoping that Mr Abbott could have done
something to save this from happening.
I'm still keeping my fingers crossed for a miracle.

I watched Bill Shorten's tirade in "Question Time,"
and couldn't help but note that after years of
blaming everything on the previous government Mr
Abbott and his Cabinet can't be surprised when
this new development with Holden is now blamed on them.

Because we all know that Mr Abbott and his senior
colleagues would have
reacted in exactly the same way to the news - had it happened
while they were in Opposition. There would have been
hell to pay for Labor - for the disappearance of
an Australian Icon on their watch. Mr Abbott and his team
would have rolled out the soundbites about the
disastrous impact of the carbon tax and the economic
incompetence of the previous government. Nothing would
have been allowed to detract from an effective attack.

Ah, politics, what fun it is.(not!).

Hey Butch,
You know you are right. You've opened my eyes. The unions.

A miracle "Ping"

Instant diagnosis Butch; Always right and never wrong.

Sorry Butch it's incurable

A few more thoughts on saving holden:

1) There have been businesses in Australia that
were shutting down until the workers took over
and bought shares and a few companies were able to
continue with manufacturing and keeping afloat.

2) The government can take over Holden, buy shares,
sell shares to the workers and the public. Parts
manufacturers can band together and take over the
production and make it an all round local success.

3) Holden can continue as a wholly Australian
product - not a General Motors branch of Detroit.

4) The reality is that General Motors is shutting shop
at many of its plants in the US and the Pacific region.

5) Why give money to General Motors when it ends up
in Detroit? Keep it in Australia.

Foxy my sweet, I'm afraid it just doesn't work that way any more. The days of welding up a chassis, bunging some axles, wheels a motor a few other bits & a body together, & calling it a car are long gone, unfortunately.

Today even many of the major manufacturers can not afford to develop a new car. It costs hundreds of millions. They often share the development of a new platform between 2 or even three competing manufacturers to be able to afford it. hence the Ford Fiesta & the Mazda 2 share the same basic structure, with styling & accessories making the difference between them.

To start with, one of the reasons Holden became unviable was the cost of developing the new Commodore. As the only GM mid range rear drive large car left in the world, they had to do it all here. The sales just did not pay for that development cost.

The stupidity was in giving the company hundreds of millions, rather than buy their cars. Once government preferred buying imported cars, Ford & Holden were dead men walking.

Today a privatized Telstra does three times as much work, with one third the staff that it did while a government department/enterprise. The reason for selling it off was to get some efficiency, not to get the money. Give GMH to government bureaucrats to run, & not only would you be likely to get a car with all wheels at one end, & none at the other, but bureaucrats would require 5 times the labor force, & six times the number of managers, & would still get it wrong.

Sorry, but government won't work.

I'll bet GM would prefer to give the Oz branch to the workers in lieu of redundancy payments, but do you think that would be acceptable.

The union controlled industrial relations what ever it's called these days just ruled that Toyota can not talk to it's workers about schemes to help them stay open. Sounds like the Poms, when their unions destroyed their own jobs.

A wry grin remembering the Ruddy fool and Julia Whatshername sitting up feeling important in their chauffeur driven fuel-guzzling limos while disbursing millions of taxpayers $$ to car manufacturers (Gee thanks,lady) to make more of the same.

When Julia Whatshername and the Ruddy fool should have been in a sustainable Toyota Prius instead and encouraging the General, Ford and others to build green cars for Oz and export.

Australia could have developed the niche hybrid and electric cars.

Still, Julia Whatshername and the Ruddy fool had their 'tickets to ride' so to speak. Which took the form of their exclusive luxury VIP jets, where they looked through glossy brochures to up-date the VIP fleet.

http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/2012/12/09/vip-fleet-choice-more-about-size-of-pms-entourage-than-make-of-jet/

It was always a question of priorities. For Julia Whatshername, Rudd, Carr and their mates it was self interest that always came first (and last, from their travel-fest at the end of their reign). For the long-suffering workers and taxpayers it was always spin and 'Never you mind'.

Dear Hassie,

Thanks for the explanation. It's unfortunate that Australia's
political parties don't have the nouse to see a broader
picture in the interests of the nation's manufacturing and
industrial growth.

Very curious, sorry fir the delay, I only just caught you post.....

Hey Butch,
You know you are right. You've opened my eyes. The unions.

A miracle "Ping"

Instant diagnosis Butch; Always right and never wrong.

Sorry Butch it's incurable

So what's inaccurate?

The base rate fir these Holden workers is $60K + all the add ons. They earn around $80 to $200K.

They have one union delegate to every six staff, the norm is one to 25.

These union delegates get ten day off each year (full pay) for training how to implement the union rules.

Their drug policy, and this is a doozy, if a worker gets tested posetive for drugs, rather than being sacked, they get four weeks off (full pay) for council-ing.

And of cause, if they do get put off, as it looks likely they will, they will receive between $300 and $500 K each in redundancy.

A union induced scandal.

If Tony Abbott were to inject funds, the unions would have to bring the work place back to the real world first, and of cause that's never going to happen is it VC.

he..wont be able to bear the cost

un limited 'growth'
simply..isnt sustainable....
[recall china is monetary easing 4 fold usa]..

A paper currency system contains the seeds of its own destruction. The temptation for the monopolist money producer to increase the money supply is almost irresistible. In such a system with a constantly increasing money supply and, as a consequence, constantly increasing prices, it does not make much sense to save in cash to purchase assets later. A better strategy, given this senario, is to go into debt to purchase assets and pay back the debts later with a devalued currency.

THAT MEANS HYPER INFLATION..
which means screwing more personal debt upon the unborn
http://www.infowars.com/how-the-paper-money-experiment-will-end/

"That this House considers that the continued issue of all the means of exchange - be they coin, bank-notes or credit, largely passed on by cheques - by private firms as an interest-bearing debt against the public should cease forthwith; that the Sovereign power and duty of issuing money in all forms should be returned to the Crown, then to be put into circulation free of all debt and interest obligations..." -- Captain Henry Kerby MP, in an Early Day Motion tabled in 1964.

task..them should bankers..or govt run the money system
[when..that dont wake them..up..i would ask them..re EASY credit
yet exorbitant credit card intrest rates

[ie..usa debt..is/now so huge..there cant EVER..be issued enough..of it to even repay..the intrest..let alone the principle

[lest we forget..ALL money..is only *created..
by SOMEONE..going into..debt..i would ask/them..how much.more personal debt..can you afford..to minimum payment..on..[and who will pay..it..after your dead.

i would remind/them..their children..will/NEED to repay..their debts
plus their education/costs..[hex/debt]on-top of parental debt..and at what stage..do they see their kids being born..into a pre birth debt
hockies 9 billion..gift..to the fed..

but..only dropped..our dollar 2 cents..but increased our real/debt..by,..20..billion

can..one owe..anything..for what..one didnt gain/the benefit of?
is it right..the dead suck..the life blood[credit]..from..the unborn?

http://www.infowars.com/stefan-molyneux-discusses-our-current-place-in-human-history/

lest..we forget..the thousands of ;edward..snowdens
using the spying info..to insider trade..ya dont..think..any of the watchers..are insider trading..onthe info?
http://www.activistpost.com/2013/12/bankers-arrested-civil-war-averted.ht

Who needs Holden anyway. The fools on the highway in the v8 monsters, poor man's Maserati?, The hoons in the suburban back streets, The engine howlers at the street lights waiting to burn off some poor old lady, your mother or my mother?
Any money poured into Holden will go into the redundancy pay packets not into production.
Goodbye Holden and thank you Unions.

The early Holdens and Falcons displaced a load of old technology that was inappropriate for Australia.

In their turn they became what they displaced. It took 20 years or so of making expensive, inappropriate cars while being subsidised by government. All of the time the unions feathered their own nest, taking advantage of the company, the government(taxpayers) and the paying customers.

Twenty plus years of not giving a rat's expletive about what the customer wants is a very long time and only made possible by governments and the unions, who similarly showed 'two to the Valley' to the long-suffering public.

Can't agree with you about the technology OTB, in fact I think much of the new technology is wrong for the average car.

A friend, a master technician, in the UK has just done a 3 week course on rebuilding just one of BMWs new engines. The company he works for will have to spend some hundreds of thousands on special equipment to be one of only 5 BMW dealers in the UK able to rebuild them.

They expect to charge at least 5000 pounds each in labour alone.

Compare this to Holdens V6 or V8 that old Joe can rebuild in the farm shed, between planting the wheat & harvesting it, with no special tools. I know which technology I'd rather own.

Then again, today, if not for some hundreds of fool green regulations, Holden could build an FJ, & sell it retail for less than $8,000.

With todays oils & fuels it would do 300,000Km no trouble, giving 7/8L/100Km fuel economy. With todays tyres, & lowered a little, it would do everything our Korean & Thailand imports can do, using about 250 Kg less resources to do so, & be nicer to drive.

Nah technology is a 2 edged sword, & we are getting the sharp end, rather than the handle I'm afraid.

Hasbeen,

There is technology and technology.

Can't say I am impressed with 'innovations' such as a dwell angle sensor that will improve fuel burn and reduce pollution by a margin that is immeasurably small, but would strand the vehicle in some remote place if it fails.

Replacing a Landy that leaks oil like the Exxon Valdez (you can rely on the oil trail and don't need a GPS or map to return to base), has electrics made by Lucas, the Prince of Darkness, leaks water even in a dew and where driver ergonomics are unknown (and a short drive results in loose teeth and bleeding kidneys), by a modern auto TD Landcruiser would make anyone praise improved technology.

I loved working on cars and like all farmers we had to do it anyhow. Sure it was easy to work on them, but a horse and buggy were even simpler.

With BMWs, Jaguars and the like you pay for complex technology and of course you always need two.

OTB,
100% correct. The cars Holden were/are building are totally inappropriate for Australia today especially with fuel so high and labor costs through the roof.
South Korea will fill the vacuum very quickly with small runabouts that you will be able to get three of four for the price of 1 Holden.
As far as the workers are concerned they have a few years to get their act together and with what they have been earning most of them could retire. There must not be any govt/taxpayer monies made available to them.

....There must not be any govt/taxpayer monies made available to them.

They're going to walk away with $300 to $500K EACH.

I doubt any other agreement is in such a mess.

While there are those who blame Abbott for Holdens exit, the blame lies squarely on the unions, lock stock and barrel, as they have demanded and acquired an unworkable situation.

Shame on them I say.

One of the endearing features of modern Holdens, as found in my Statesman, is the beautifully designed boot lid hlnges, they do not protrude outside the vehicle as on older and lesser cars so as to break the exterior lines by 1/2 an inch.
Instead they intrude into the usable boot space by 8 inches each side, woe to the unwary who put expensive luggage high enough to be mangled by these devices.
Fortunately we only have soft luggage and only the first time was I caught by not being able to close the lid, I'm now Holden trained and it's no longer a problem.

Then there are the plastic 'bumpers'.....

i..told john..tony
just so you cant say..you wernt told

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=15786&page=0#274098

@ Is Mise, Monday, 16 December 2013 6:20:50 PM

Heh, heh, thanks. Tears of laughter.

i dont..know about tony
but he gave an address..that reveals..he gets it
[or gave a..solid impression..so let..him..know a summery..of this recording..[edit out the adverts.

they are trying to..get us angry
http://rss.infowars.com/20131124_Sun_Alex.mp3
the beginning..explains the war..between the baddies/the baddies
the middle explains how federal..police are corrupting local police...and how they..assaulted alex..by hurting a child
[they will do much the same..to govt[recall..goerge/blair/john..REALLY believed satans spin

and note..please..the big ending..is important too
perhaps more..try to focus..on what is said

thats what ilike about files..you can rewind..to make sure
thats all tony needs do..check/confirm..dont act fast..not furious
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=15820&page=0

back yourself tony..first law..service to other
not disservice

disservice to any..is dis-service to all
[especially yourself][dont let us down tony*]

what would jesus DO?
peace/love/*\war\death?

DO NOT ACT..in..haste..think ask question/talk discuss
regardless..its in process..SERVE-life/living over death\murder.