Did I hear correctly. Did Rudd just insult India and China in his budget reply?

Rudd used as an example, ostensibly to show how poor he believed tertiary education in Australia has become, the fact that both India and China had more PhD students graduate last year than Australia.

Is he saying that we should think Australia has been performing badly when then only example he can use is that countries that have close to 1,000 million people (India) and more (China), as opposd to Australia's 22 million, had more PhD students than Australia? Why does Kevin think we should be ashamed? Is he suggesting we should be ashamed because these countries are examples of backwardness (sic) filled with poor students and masses of poorly educated people?

I hope China and India did not take offense at him suggesting we should be ashamed because they had more PhD students than us. If anything I thought it was a huge pat on the back for Australia's education sector (tertiary in particular)!

I watched the Budget reply hoping for something exciting from Rudd. Nothing much that we haven't heard before. He keeps on saying that the present economic conditions are the result of a mining boom that cannot last, despite many of AUstralia's foremost economists disagreeing with this premise. However, his biggest new announcement was his investment into trade training. He made the comment that anyone who is trying to get renovations done at the moment would realise how scarce tradesmen are. This is true!

Rudd says the mining boom cannot last but he seems to believe that the building boom and the need for more tradesmen will continue to last. Don't you just love entrenched political positions?

Yes, we do need tradesmen right now, but I can remember when the local papers were filled with qualified tradesmen offering their services as 'handyman' and at a pittance just to get by.

I actually think Rudd's trade training ideas are very good but I don't think you can build a nation on them.

I don't know what you were listening to, but if you read the speech:

http://www.smh.com.au/pdf/ruddreply.pdf

I don't see anything in there that insults China or India, or even mentions them in the context of Australia nor our education sector.

I dare say that sinophile Rudd is more obsessed with Asia than Paul Keating was. Don't worry Janus333, Rudd will ensure the complete enmeshment of Australia province with the mainland. Beijing will gladly welcome another nation into the Sinosphere, especially as the "yang guizi" (foreign devils) residing in Australia province are a relatively docile bunch.

What a ridiculous discussion. And people should be delighted Australia is developing closer ties with Asia, as it will insulate Australia from the inevitable American economic recession. Much as you might hate asian people, there is nothing you can do about it without sealing Australia's fate economically.

Steel, no need to presumptuously jump to wildly inaccurate conclusions and engage in puerile ad hominem attacks. My hyperbolic post was aimed at drawing attention to Rudd's Sinophilia. No need to feign indignation.

As for the "foreign devils" reference, perhaps you should learn some Mandarin.

"The Chinese sense of their own self-importance is strongly reflected throughout the text, and in his introductory remarks Sang Ye explains that in nearly all the interviews the interviewees referred to Australians as devils (guizi) or foreign devils (yang guizi) or used the slightly more polite form ‘foreigners’ (laowai or waiguoren). Sang Ye suggests that those interviewed were apparently oblivious to the fact that in Australia they may be the ones considered to be foreigners."

http://www.api-network.com/main/index.php?apply=scholars&webpage=default&flexedit=&flex_password=&menu_label=&menuID=homely&menubox=&scholar=135

Janus333

"China graduated half a million scientists and engineers."
"India graduated more PhDs than we can imagine."

I think you need a hearing aid.

Kevin Rudd has once again insulted Australians with his narrow Asian focus. He wants to put money into Asian languages, not community languages. He is suggesting that all Australian children should learn an Asian language.
It sounds good on the surface but it takes years to acquire an Asian language, even native speakers of Japanese and Chinese spend a disproportionate amount of time learning their own language. We need schools to concentrate on community languages such as Greek, Italian and other European languages. We need Turkish, Arabic and Vietnamese too. We do not need a generation of children who are unable to do more than say "Sayonara" because that is all they will be able to say.
When they have a community languages then the linguistically able among them can learn an Asian language if they want to. There is a world beyond Asia. It is a world we can do business with if we can see further than a region with which can be friendly but of which we can never be part.

Communicat

Did it ever occur to you who Australia's largest trading partners are?

Number one China, Number two Japan. surely it is an advantage if some of us can talk to them.

"Steel, no need to presumptuously jump to wildly inaccurate conclusions and engage in puerile ad hominem attacks."
Pot kettle black. Take a look in the mirror and observe your reaction and casual use of hyperbole.

"My hyperbolic post was aimed at..." Oh? I (insert adjective) guess you (insert adjective) better (insert adjective) shut (insert adjective) up about it.

Actually Janus333 its even nastier than you imagine. I think if you were so politically incorrect as to count the PhDs awarded in Australia by ethnicity or nationality you will find there are more Chinese and Indians completing PhDs in Australia than Australian born.

billie

Do you have a shred of evidence to back your assertion? I doubt it.

The asian languages focus is nothing new though. When I was in primary school 17 years ago (shows my age), Indonesian was compulsory. My younger sister did compulsory Japanese at high school (both public schools btw). Its not really a new concept. Not that I am particularly interested in learning an asian language. As for Chinese and Japanese people spending an inordinate amount of time learning their own language, did you consider that fact that the only compulsory HSC subject is English?? And we're always rabbitting on about the 3 R's, particularly that kids these days arent nearly literate enough. Maybe asian languages arent that hard after all!

ruawake check out the lists of postgraduate students enrolled at any university. You will find all PhD candidates are listed on a web page somewhere within each department or under their supervisors research interests.

ruawake check out the lists of postgraduate students enrolled at any university. You will find all PhD candidates are listed on a web page somewhere within each department or under their supervisors research interests.

see http://www.infocom.cqu.edu.au/Research/Students_and_Staff/Students/

So you can tell by their names that they are not Australian? Great deductive reasoning billie.

How do you know if any or all of them were born in Australia?

Rudd threw some very useful bones to small business. They are

- no increase in administrative red tape any new regulation will mean removal of an existing regulation

- faster Commonweath bill paying = the right to charge interest to the government on bills that are not paid within 30 days

- superannuation clearing house

- A standard disclosure form for financial services products

- turn Australia into a funds management hub for Asia, l halve the withholding tax on distributions from Australian managed funds to non-residents from 30 percent to 15 percent or compete with Luxembourg, Dublin, New York and Singapore

- re-establish an Asian languages and studies strategy for Australian schools.

As well as rolling out high speed broadband as previously announced.

ruawake see http://www.australianaustralia.com/page/Overseas_Students_May_Face_Tougher_Visa_Tests/373

http://www.hothousemedia.com/etm/etmbackissues/mayetm07/mayetm07news.htm or
http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2007/01/28/1169919213448.html

http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/english-skills-row-over-foreign-students/2007/01/28/1169919213448.html

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2005/12/18/1134840742437.html NB upto 30% of students in any course can pay full fees. Until recently Australian citizens couldn't take full fee places.

Janus-: "I actually think Rudds trade training ideas are very good but I dont think you can build a nation on them."

How then are you going to build the nation? All the planes will be grounded through lack of maintenance. The electricity will go off.
No fridges, air conditioning, computers, trams in Melbourne, and every thing else that requires electricity will be operating. Once the trains break down they will be left to rust where they stand with noone to maintain them.
When the toilets in schools and offices start to overflow there will be no plumbers to fix them. Transport trucks will breakdown with noone to fix them. Cars will rust in the streets. Even the mines that produce all those lovely money making things like coal etc., wont be able to operate without machinery.

I personally have known tradesmen who were constantly in demand by their neighbours and family to keep their homes and cars etc running so there is also a lot of voluntary work done by tradesmen at the community level to help the people around them.

It is the tradesmen and women who in a very real sense keep the society around them functioning. Even the army would be stranded without the tradesmen to keep them airborne and mobile.

Incidently if generators are needed to keep hospitals running when the electricity goes out who do you think will be needed to keep the generators running.

"Last night in his Budget reply, Mr Rudd announced that he would re-establish a strategy for Asian languages and studies in Australian schools, with a new program costing $65 million over four years.

But students who are already learning the tonal Asian languages, like Mandarin and Thai, say they're finding it very difficult. And those who do persevere say Australian employers see their skills as a novelty, not a necessity."

http://www.abc.net.au/pm/content/2007/s1920973.htm

Simply having a second language does not equip one with the skills to engage with foreign business. Just because I can speak some Russian doesn't mean I am qualified for a position with Gazprom, Rosneft or Aeroflot.

On a side note, I must say that I am highly amused by that irascible crank Steel and his accusations that I don't like Asians simply because I am weary of Mr. Rudd's Sinophilia. Steel's economic ignorance is somewhat amusing also. As Australia's largest source of foreign investment, the United States is largely the reason why we are able to run such a large current account deficit. That's why if the U.S. sneezes, Australia catches a cold. There's no free lunch from China.

Was this thread started y Joe Hocky?
Or was it ment to be a joke?

Sure China (which is effectively bankrupt) and Japan are our big trading partners. How many people does is it take to communicate with them...not every child in the community. Let's be realistic. Let's get children reading and writing English first, then a community language and then, if they can really handle it another language.
Head of Asian Studies at ANU told me many years ago they would rather have students with no knowledge of the language and teach them from scratch than students from schools who often had to unlearn the little they had been taught.
Rudd's approach is simplistic, ill thought out and impossible to implement. It is a waste of time, money and resources that would be better spent giving students practical skills and teaching them to use their leisure time to do something other than play computer games, watch television and play "team" sports under duress.

brace yourself comcat: anu mandarins are not the wellspring of knowledge you imagine. when learning a language, earlier the better.

further, 'asian' languages are not particularly hard. in the first place, they're not all the same. that may surprise you. mandarin in particular is simple to speak and understand although an early start is advisable to get the tones right. this is true of any language tho'.

Ah easy to learn a little and hard to learn a lot - and that comes from many, many teachers of a variety of Asian languages all over the world at primary, secondary and tertiary level.
Even if what you had to say was true that does not mean we should be teaching Asian languages in preference to the languages which have some cultural relevance in Australia.
We have to look at Asia but we also have to look beyond Asia. We are losing trade opportunities in droves because of the narrow minded focus on Asia.
BTW I am familiar with a number of Asian languages

Why aren't our schools teaching Spanish? South American countries present massive trade opportunities for Australia. There has been some talk of an Australia-Mercosur free trade agreement, but Australia's response has been so far underwhelming. Just another opportunity passing us by.

Do you think George Bush would allow a FTA with Brazil, Argentina, Uruguay, Venezuela, and Paraguay? I think not.

Bush wants Free Trade Area of the Americas (FTAA)to prevail and I am sure we will follow.

I think its a waste of time and money to teach kids how to speak Asian at school

I always did disagree with the labour party trying to portray Australia as part of Asia. One of the Asian leaders to our north assessed it with more common sense when he said Australia is not Asian and will never be Asian until they have a 60% Asian population.

obviously he could see the truth because he wasnt brainwashed by the stupid political correctness that pretends that what is true isnt true so nobody will be offended.

Ruawake, an Americas-wide trade pact with Australia as an associate member would be ideal from our point of view. It would foster and formalize trade links with our traditional friends such as the United States and Canada, but also open up access to the emerging economies of Latin America, in particular Brazil, Argentina and Chile.

As opposed to Asia, Latin America is one of the few potential markets for Australian manufactured exports. Of course, the brain-dead dolts in DFAT don't get it. The longer Australia waits, the greater the risk groupings such as Mercosur will establish preferential trade ties with the EU, effectively locking Australia out of markets within its own hemisphere. As the South American markets continue to grow and require the products and expertise that Australia is capable of supplying, then regional preferences and wider trade agreements with Mercosur will form and Australia will not be able to compete.

Our government talks alot about the benefits of globalisation, but Australia's trade focus remains disturbingly narrow.

If the ALP wins the election (which looks likely) then the focus will be even narrower than before. Rudd has his sights firmly set on China. He almost seems to believe that the world begins and ends in Asia. He has apparently been heard to say privately that "we don't need to do business with the EU".
We have already lost too many opportunities to the narrow Asian focus and noone is ready to believe that China is on the brink of economic collapse (it is already recycling workers' savings to pay the workers). It is likely to be propped up by countries like Australia - in their own economic interest.
It is impossible to get letters into the media about these issues - editors take the line that "it's a good point and an important one but we dare not print that point of view".

"He has apparently been heard to say privately that "we don't need to do business with the EU"."

Do you have a link?

If those comments are legitimate, it demonstrates that Rudd's obsession with Asia is not only irrational, but a threat to our national interests.

Australia has a special historical bond with the nations of Europe and we should be looking for ways to expand upon those ties. The EU collectively constitutes the second largest economy in the world and the largest single trading bloc. In terms of GDP, the EU trumps China. As for the Australia-EU economic relationship, the EU is the largest source of foreign investment in Australia and the second major destination for Australian investments abroad. It is also a vital trade partner for Australia.

In the age of global transport and instantaneous communication, there could be nothing more narrow-minded and anachronistic than ignoring our natural affinity with Europe purely based on the tyranny of geography. Obviously we need to be on good terms with our Asian neighbours, but it is absurd to advocate that Asia should ever be the sole focus of our world-view.

John Howard has apparently been heard to say privately that "we should invade New Zealand".

Rumour? or just plain lies?

"it is absurd to advocate that Asia should ever be the sole focus of our world-view."

no one says it should be the sole focus... but whether you like it or not, it will become a lot more important. You don't seem to understand basic economics.

"You don't seem to understand basic economics."

Obviously nor do you.

From a purely economic perspective, Australia's strategic position couldn't be any worse. Australia simply cannot compete in the so-called "Asia-Pacific" region, beyond serving as China's quarry. Half of our exports are primary products, and roughly two-thirds of imports are manufactured goods. A downturn in commodity prices would force Australia to enhance the value of its service exports, where it faces tough competition from India, or its manufacturing exports, where it faces even tougher competition from China. Such a path would doom us to become the "poor white trash of Asia" after all.

If Australia is to maintain its living standards beyond the present Chinese-driven commodities boom, then it is imperative for Canberra to seek trade opportunities elsewhere. That means becoming a truly global exporter.

Keating believed that economics overruled culture in shaping Australia's place in the world. However, one should not discount the crucial role culture and people-to-people links play in the formation of trade relations. Regional trade blocs are largely built upon cultural commonalities. That's why Australia and New Zealand will remain orphans in the South Pacific.

In the 21st century, globalisation has overcome the tyranny of geography. Yet Australian policymakers seems more captivated by blind geographical determinism than ever before.

To quote international affairs expert Owen Harries:

"To emphasise geography as decisive at the very time when technology is making physical distance and proximity less significant than they have ever been in human history, and when communication with any part of the world is virtually instantaneous, seems perverse. Far from being inescapable, the reality of geography, in a sense of it's human significance, is constantly changing, constantly being circumvented."