With the Abbott government about to slash $4.5 billion over the next 4 years from Australia’s foreign aid budget will Australia be seen as, although an affluent nation, one that has little regard for its much poorer neighbors. At present Australia commits 0.37% of national income to foreign aid, this will fall to 0.33% under Abbott, where as the ideal minimum should be 0.50%.
I have a particular interest in Australia’s aid both government and private to our near neighbors in the Pacific, countries like Fiji, Vanuatu, Tonga and Samoa. About 20% of Australia’s total aid package is directed to these small Pacific nations, where Australia along with New Zealand are the biggest aid providers.
Aid groups say the proposed cuts by Australia will have a profound effect on these small Pacific nations. The government believes slashing the foreign aid budget will improve Australia’s bottom line and I am sure it will, but at what cost to Australia and our poorer neighbors. UNICEF Australia chief executive, Norman Gillespie says news of the foreign aid cuts came as a surprise. "This has come as quite a shock, the size of the cuts, the scale of them and simply the giving up of the principle of a civilized nation helping those who are in extreme poverty and in need," he said. Oxfam Australia Chief Executive Dr Helen Szoke says the cuts are at the expense of the worlds most vulnerable. The previous Labor government had proposed a delay in reaching a target of 0.50% of revenue being spent on aid. Unfortunately these Coalition cuts will have a devastating impact on existing successful Australian aid programs in these poor countries such as children’s vaccination and schooling.
Australia should rethink its proposal to cut foreign aid, particularly to our small Pacific neighbors who depend so much on our assistance

While ever our current financial position forces job cuts and service cuts we should share the pain by cutting this too.
If people could place any trust in giving aid privately , and we can not, it is not going to those we intend, I am sure such donations would bridge the gap.

Paul,

Just another example of this govt's putrid lack of humanity when dealing with anyone who ain't us.

It's come to a pretty pass when a government is elected by its people on the grounds of least compassion.

Especially for a first world industrialised nation with one of the highest standards of living in the world...one which used to accept it's "grown-up" responsibilities to its poorer neighbours as a given.

Makes you wonder where we as a nation are headed.

Papua New Guinea has been given 1.2 million Dollars a day from Australia since so-called independence in 1975. What have they got to show for it ?

We give aid to Indonesia, seeing the size of their armed forces is it justified ?
Do we still give aid to China ?

A cut to zero there would probably cover it all.

When you read the media or listen to media programs etc where people are complaining about the foreign aid budget NOTICE almost always 1 thing it is the bosses of them or the charities that are jumping up and down.

Question 1, what are the salaries and extra benefits of the top 10 people in each of those organizations. Try walking into 1 of them and asking that question, they will quickly show you the door.

These people are just trying to protect there HIGH salaries.

Dear Paul,

Thank You for this discussion. The cuts to foreign
aid is a concern. It's hitting the most vunerable
of our neighbours and for us to do that in the midst
of the comparatively good conditions in our own
country will undermine our country's moral leadership
in the world. We pay out far more in "handouts" to
the nonpoor than the poor. This fact generally
escapes attention because these benefits take the
indirect form of hidden subsidies or tax deductions
rather than cash payments.

We have to decide the kind of society that we want to
live in and hopefully our ultimate choice will be
to try to enhance the life on this planet on which
billions of us share our adventure.

cont'd ...

"We make a living by what we get
But we make a life by what we give."

(Winston Churchill).

Foxy - Quote "We make a living by what we get But we make a life by what we give."

WRONG the bosses of the charities etc make a life of what we give.

A lot of the charities of 100% given the needy are lucky to get 25% the rest goes in administration etc.

Dear Philip S.,

That may well be, however if we didn't give anything -
the poor wouldn't even get that pittance.

Foreign aid should be cut to 0.03, not 0.3, & every cent wasted on that greatest of all rip off organisations the UN, should be cut to zero.

Just how naive are you people?

The pilot of one of our helicopters carrying aid to cut off outlying villages in Indonesia, after their last catastrophe, was told by the head man of the base town, "you go home, we don't want you". "You go home, you send money". Do tell me where that money would have gone, & why the Indonesian military, with many more helicopters than us, was not serving it's own people.

Foreign aid is always stuffed up by the rip off merchants in the receiving country, or by stupid ideological day dreamers. For example, Some of our twits forced PNG to waste quite a bit of our foreign aid in buying out European [Ozzie mostly] plantation owners, & giving the plantations to the local villagers.

This is a typical bleeding heart, lefty idea. It was a loose loose system.

The villagers weren't interested in working hard enough to run a plantation efficiently, & did not need the income anyway. A 30 ton a month plantation would soon be a 3 ton a month plantation, & not worth bothering with for the copra boats. It thus ceased to be a plantation.

PNG was not only wasting much of the aid money, but loosing tax income, & the foreign exchange earned by copra exports. It took almost 10 years to actually stop the stupidity.

Any foreign aid should be restricted to the supply of Oz produced food, shelter or medical supplies.

Dear Hasbeen,

Foreign aid contributes to foreign countries being
stable and better governed and that in turn means
that we are less likely to be adversely affected
by their problems (our military budget can be
decreased).

Also, as one writer stated on the web,

"Actually there seems to be quite an irony that a party
that complains about the burden of refugees to our
country increasing the likelihood of an increase in global
numbers of refugees."

Foxy my sweet, I know you believe that, & it would be a nice feeling to be able to agree with you. Unfortunately with what experience I have, I'm afraid I just can't.

I never saw a single instance of foreign aid doing a single bit of good anywhere. I did see it doing quite a bit of harm, particularly with the Ozzie people involved in it.

Foxy - Quote "Foreign aid contributes to foreign countries being
stable and better governed and that in turn means that we are less likely to be adversely affected by their problems (our military budget can be decreased)."

If you believe that you have my sympathy.

Foreign aid allows Indonesia and some other countries to spend more money on there military while we spend our money on there people.

Indonesia are buying helicopter gunships and missiles, the more aid we give them the more of there own money they can use to buy them.

A lot of countries re-package the food aid to make it seem like it comes from there own government.

Foreign aid is given and withdrawn for POLITICAL reasons, do as I say or we will stop the aid.

Large proportions of foreign aid goes to corrupt officials.

Please wake up to the real world.

Hi Lexi,

Thanks for your efforts in paraphrasing UN puff piece brochure No. c12r for us (below):
<< Foreign aid contributes to foreign countries being
stable and better governed and that in turn means
that we are less likely to be adversely affected
by their problems>>

and for citing this bit simplistic left-think nonsense:
<<"Actually there seems to be quite an irony that a party
that complains about the burden of refugees to our
country increasing the likelihood of an increase in global
numbers of refugees.">>

Unfortunately the reality is Australia's aid could be 100 times what it is/was and it still wouldn't dent the flow of "refugees" to our shores or elsewhere. However, it might be helpful if those who push such lines took their own advice- and read more widely!

Some of the very best millionaires give millions.
Some of the true poor give what they truly can not afford.
But room exists to understand far too much aid is not getting to its intended people.
And in some cases we see the same crisis ten years after we helped fix it.
I am pro giving but anti waste.
We are heading for tough times for some of our own, how can we not see that?
Labor too cut some funding.

Hasbeen, said "never saw a single instance of foreign aid doing a single bit of good anywhere. I did see it doing quite a bit of harm"
Its a pity people like you don't open their eyes and "SEE". You know nothing, talking from blind ignorance.
In Fiji last year Australian aid paid for over 8,000 child vaccinations against measles,diphtheria, tetanus, and Hepatitis B. On a recent visit to that country I seen children being given their shots. But of course you know better sitting in you lounge room, you know it all, you know nothing.
Australia has promised to deliver 110,000 doses of rotavirus and pneumococcal vaccine to Fiji this year alone, hopefully these proposed cuts will not affect this program for people who badly need this vaccine.
If you don't think people can't make a difference then check out this site;

http://www.fijikids.org/

I know how much the people running this organisation get paid and its not enough to buy a cup of coffee. Its totally voluntary but to satisfy the non givers and to justify their thinking, they all get paid a million dollars

If all the struggling economies of Europe
can met their obligations in regard to
foreign aid, then why can't we with an
economy that's currently the envy of the world.
This is hard to understand - especially when
our foreign aid was such a small amount.

However, those who have no room for compassion and
believe in the ideology -
that people should either sink or swim, and if they sink,
we'll that's too bad. This is not a philosophy that I
can take seriously - (no matter what names I'm
called by the gentlemen, and deep-thinkers, of this forum).

Dear Paul,

Thank you for putting things into their proper
perspective - especially as far as children are
concerned - and where the money actually does go.

Ignorance is not bliss - and the more facts that
are publicly circulated on this subject - hopefully
the better informed people will be. We as Australians
have always helped those in need - be it as a result of
war, floods, disease, famine. I simply can't see us
hardening our hearts at this time, especially as far as
children are concerned. We need more people with the
heart of Fred Hollows, and many others, especially in
politics, to continue to show us the way.
Funny, nobody complains about increases to the military
budget - but vaccinating children ? Would we really
rather invest in things that kill people, rather than in
things that save them? I know where my answer lies and
if that makes me a Leftie or a bleeding heart in some
people's eyes, well I guess that's something I shall
wear as a badge of honour.

And how much did it cost, Paul1405 for what should have been one doctor & a couple of nurses, vaccinating a few kids?

Where did the other tens of millions go?

Some here have very short memories.

When floods devastated Queensland, it was a real effort for Julia Whatshername to make a brief appearance, where she gave a speech on self-reliance.

Then she was off again promoting herself as Rudd did by disbursing millions of foreign aid money everywhere and to buy a seat on UN's Security Council.

What upset Queenslanders though is that without being asked, Julia Wahtshername made the grand gesture of many millions of taxpayers' money in aid for floods in Afghanistan, whereas Queenslanders copped the "Chins up" and "Queenslanders can help themselves" from Julia, the queen of international travel.

Things must look different from the lounge of that plush guvvy jet.

However on the ground and while Julia Wahtshername can afford to buy a $2million bungalow from her golden handshake, many Queenslanders are still couch surfing with friends, free camping in Toyota minivans and living in someone else's garage because they lost everything they had. Julia didn't even have a strong word with the insurers who refused to pay out on flood insurance but still jacked up premiums later 'just because'.

Of course foreign aid money needs to be reviewed.

its up to the individual to decide how much they want to give to overseas aid or anything else rather than the Government pretending to be stingy/generous. Oxfam like many other agencies that depend on taxpayers money is more a political animal than anything else. You would think that by the many failures of the left that they would be to shamed in calling others 'heartless'. Does not appear so.

In 2003 Tor Hundloe was the first Australian
recognised by the award of an Order of Australia
for his development and practice of an economics
in line with ecological reality and ethical
imperatives.

He talks about the golden rule and tells us that:

"...The rule is, for all intents and purposes, the
same in all cultures. It simply asks that we put
ourselves in a position of the poorest of the poor,
the weakest of the weak, the sickest of the sick and do
unto others as we would want done unto us."

Where have we heard that before?

What Australia may fail to realise Pacific aid benifits us as well. I was told during my recent visit that if Australia cuts aid then China is ready willing and able to step in and fill the vacuum. In Fiji Chinese aid is being spent funding road works, which are badly needed particularly in the interior where the roads are strictly 4WD only.

Hasbeen you asked "Where did the other tens of millions go?" The Fijians love nothing better than spending Australian aid dollars on fancy holidays in Australia, staying at 5 star hotels, lapping up the sun while being waitered on hand and foot by Australians earning $3/hr and saying "goooooood day mate." In fact Australia is one of the favorite destinations for Fijian wanting a pampered holiday.
The rest of the money they blow on wide screen TV's, new cars and Ipods.

'"...The rule is, for all intents and purposes, the
same in all cultures. It simply asks that we put
ourselves in a position of the poorest of the poor,
the weakest of the weak, the sickest of the sick and do
unto others as we would want done unto us." '

true foxy but why do we need Government to do this. There is nothing stopping u or i or anyone else from doing this. Governments seem to find it very easy to be generous with other people's money.

Currently we are borrowing money to give it away. If you want to help poor people, give them an education and women the power to control their fertility.

Also give poor countries the power to create their own money and tell the World Bank to get stuffed.

Dear runner,

I do give as much as I can.
As I'm sure you do and so do many other people
in this country. However, our donations valuable
as they are, can't be equated with the larger
amount that our government is capable on giving
on our behalf as well. Therefore, if our government
is prepared to increase and spend in other areas,
that perhaps are not as dire,
then they can also continue to spend in an area that
will potentially save human lives - especially those
of children. I'm willing to have my taxes go
towards this end.

We give aid to Indonesia, seeing the size of their armed forces is it justified ?
Bazz,
Australia should do a deal with Indonesia & pay for having their Police stir up the show here.
No pussy-footing easy way out pick on the vulnerable kind of policing. Go in & deal with the mongrels like they do in Indonesia. They don't have crime like we have here simply because they do what their position title says, they police.

Foreign aid should be a good thing but too often it is distributed in an inefficient manner, oft times for political purposes and occasionally falls into the wrong hands and does not end up where it should.
Do we cease providing aid to the many in need because of the light fingered and selfish proclivity of a few is a good question. What price a childs life ? I leave that for wiser heads than mine.
I make an annual donation to Medicins Sans Frontieres and a couple of organisations closer to home. I realise I cannot save the world and I have to take a chance that some good will come out of my donations but if I can do my little bit toward helping others less fortunate I am sure my country can as well.

SD

Shaggy Dog I like3 all of that post and would like to agree with every word.
But I can not, in truth the world has to change before aid is made the best use of every time.
Lets face it in my view Labor gives too much Liberals, not out of spite, take too much.
Every Tom Dick and Harry is asking for money so they can help the true needy.
We threw money at the Music industry's massive aid to the starving in Africa and needed to do just that to a lessor degree ten years on.
Linked to the millions of refugees world wide, never ignore that link, we need to change the way we do things.
It always and under any government, is easy to say cuts are a crime.
But if we look the world its governments at least, have recently cut aid.
The UN seems unable to truly lead in the matter of aid getting to the right people and making life better for millions fleeing to the west in search of a better life.

Belly,

The world is a very imperfect place and the people that inhabit same including ourselves are also less than perfect.
That said we should still strive to be the best we can and that includes helping those in need despite the many failings of aid programs.
No doubt thought should be given to the best and most efficient use of aid.

Take it easy.

SD

Australian Foreign Aid to Indonesia supports their terrorist activities in West Papua, just as it did in East Timor.

The Timorese and West Papuans were tortured and murdered by Indonesian Military Forces and in the case of the latter it is still going on.
See: http://www.smh.com.au/world/west-papuans-tortured-terrorised-20131006-2v2ae.html

Why should our tax money go to support murdering, torturing terrorists?

When you are selfish, and greedy, you need to justify that position to yourself and others, rather than come out and say the unpalatable "I'm a selfish, greedy B and I don't want to share my wealth with anyone, particularly people I don't know and don't particularly like." One needs to create a pseudo version of reality. Since what they are is unpalatable, even to them in most cases, they need to create this "justification", and the best way is to concoct a line that is acceptable to themselves. When it comes to foreign aid for the likes of children, and the thought of not giving to children, no matter who they are, is unpalatable to even the above, one simply substitutes for the child a thieving local official who is stealing the aid, or an incompetent bureaucrat who is wasting the aid, etc. In this way the selfish greedy person has now justified their position and they can sleep soundly at night knowing their position is fully justified by what is the "reality".

For those who are interested here is the AusAID site and where out aid dollars are spent.

http://www.ausaid.gov.au/makediff/Pages/default.aspx

Paul1405 - The link does not say what the salary of the bosses is or what other benefits they get.

Also it fails to say how much goes to the needy as opposed to how much goes in administration etc.

Belly,
Just a follow up to my previous posts.
I am not some innocent viewing things from afar. I knew East Timor pre Indonesia in its Portuguese days. I lived in New Guinea for a time, spent time in the Philippines, work related. Saw how things worked in many other less than desirable locations in various parts of the world but also saw the poverty and hardship endured by many.
You do your best in a less than perfect environment, that is the way of things.
To do anything else is a cop out.

Take it easy.

SD

Phil, so you can sleep easy at night knowing you are doing your bit, just believe what you want, it all goes to the "Mafia" in the countries designated.
Yep. when I was in Fiji, they were not vaccinating children, it was all being handed out to the local warlords. If I was you I would feel totally justified opposing foreign aid on the grounds its going to the wrong people, into the hands of fat cats and warlords.
Phil your not alone, the usual suspects here are lining up as well in opposition. The same folk who will happily support billions being spent on war in one third world country after another, and at the same time oppose the vaccination of children on the grounds the money is being wasted.

Any money that we give to Indonesia frees up their money to be spent on terrorism and in the case of West Papua an attempt at genocide.

Next time you are happy that some child in Indonesia is being vaccinated think that the money saved is probably going to the killing of some unfortunate who doesn't want to be under the rule of the fascists in Jojakata.

Further to the above:

"A member of the West Papuan peace negotiating committee says torture and terror are a daily occurence in Indonesia's attempt to subdue the Melanesian population in the provinces of Papua."

See: http://www.radioaustralia.net.au/international/radio/program/pacific-beat/torture-and-terror-a-daily-occurence-in-west-papua-activist/1201210

Is Mise,

I have no doubt its true.
There is much mineral wealth involved and it not just the Indonesians who do not want to see independence for West Papua.
As an aside I owned a small yacht that was built in Holland and was sold out of West Papua when the Dutch moved on. A tenuous thread to another time of colonialism for West Papua.
There are many wrongs in the world and there is so little one can do about them except hope that time will provide some resolution.
One can only help the best one can under the circumstances.
Take it easy.

SD

We can without effort change the thread to include every wrong in the world.
Nothing is gained by doing just that.
Given a chance Australians would by massive margins, vote for Indonesia to leave all of Timor and too New Guinea.
But if we continue to splatter our thoughts in this case to well known past wrongs we gain nothing.
I too could put a good case for more aid, my heart supports just that.
But I have no need to nit pick to find fault in this government.
They are doing that better than I ever could.
But ignore th4e increasing cuts from most country,s, and the concern at the way aid is spent at the peril of those in need.
Many country,s/people are reluctant to give because it is being abused.

Paul1405 - You have really outdone yourself with your reply.

If you read what I wrote and have been saying a lot of the money goes to executive salaries, perks and administration. Yes in some countries a lot goes in corruption.

Please activate brain before applying fingers to keyboard to save future embarrassment.

Dear Paul,

Thanks for that.

As Professor Tor Hundloe points out,

"There but for the grace of God, or if a non-believer,
go I. We could all be the child who has never been at
school but finds themselves working in a Third World
sweat-shop, six days a week, sending most of their wages
back to their parents and eight siblings who live in
rural poverty, while he/she lives in a slum, breathes
particulate-dense air, is constantly on guard against the
crippling diseases that lurk within their drinking water.

Yet they are the lucky ones because at least they have
life-sustaining meagre rations and a neighbourhood
health-clinic when the inevitable illness occurs. Those
back in the distant village will scratch and scrape for food
and rely on witchcraft when illness arrives."

In the case of Indonesia it is not past wrongs but the ones that are occurring now, today the 8th October 2013, and to people who look to us for help.

Australia has blood on its hypocritical hands.

The mistake viv-a-vis Australia that both the Timor people and the West Papuans made was to support Australia against the Japanese in WW II, had they done the same as the Indonesians then their fate may have been different.

Main mining interest is Freeport-McMoRan, mainly American owned and the caller of the shots. Profit for 2010: $ 4.336 billion.

Why should our tax money go to support murdering, torturing terrorists?
is Mise,
I suppose the Indonesians will respond in kind for as long as it takes for the West papuans to stop shooting up police stations.
If you're asking Jakarta to pull out of West Papua then you must also ask London to pull out of Australia.
ps. I do not support money given as foreign aid. It should be in the form of australian manufactured goods.

Good God, Individual, is it the Sassenach that are doing all that shooting in Western Sydney?

Beggorah! Wonders will never cease.

"Indonesian Human Rights Abuses in West Papua:
Application of the Law of Genocide to the
History of Indonesian Control"

continues at http://www.law.yale.edu/documents/pdf/Intellectual_Life/West_Papua_final_report.pd

Is Mise,
Well, When I was there it wasn't Germans jumping off the back of a truck with shotguns & storming a Police station killing 6 officers.
It's not Germans going apecrap on beetle nut & hacking up people.

Is Mise,
Come to think of it how much do you know of the doings of the Marind, the Kia Kia, the tugeri etc. All your everyday nice caring & politcally correct head hunters only two generations ago. You don't think it would only take a couple of sips of Sopi or Segero for some of them to revert in couple of seconds ?

Having studied anthropology and New Guinea in particular I do know quite a bit about the place, I even know about the menstruating men!
I also know about the Slobbo tribe in Sydney going troppo every weekend and causing mayhem because of the booze.

But that is beside the point, our money is subsidizing Indonesian terrorism and I'm not the least bit amazed that the Papuans hit back at the murderers in their midst.

Philip S, My original post was about Australian aid to our Pacific neighbors. All your posting is nothing more than your "justification" for opposing this aid on the ground of selfishness and greed, your selfishness, your greed. Your not alone, lots of Australians agree with you. If you have any real evidence for what you claim in regards to aid to our Pacific neighbors, please present it. Otherwise take your own advice "Please activate brain before applying fingers to keyboard to save future embarrassment." Your attitude based on your minds eye machinations ts truly pathetic.
"Large proportions of foreign aid (Australian) goes to corrupt officials." evidence please, or is it as I said, your minds eye machinations.
p/s I'm sure I'll wait a long time for the "evidence".

See:
"ADB/OECD Anti-Corruption Initiative for Asia and the Pacific

FIGHTING BRIBERY IN PUBLIC PROCUREMENT IN ASIA AND THE PACIFIC

Proceedings of the 7th Regional Seminar on
making international anti-corruption standards operational

Held in Bali, Indonesia, 5–7 November 2007, and hosted by the
Corruption Eradication Commission (KPK) Indonesia

Asian Development Bank
Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development"

If there were no corruption this seminar might not have been held and one would need to be naive indeed to think that aid monies would not be involved.

Ref.http://www.oecd.org/site/adboecdanti-corruptioninitiative/40838411.pdf

Is Mise,
Come to think of it how far did the freedom flottilla go last month ? Those papuans where quite content with sacrificing those ignorant young people who believed they were supporting a noble cause.

It's all on Google at </www.google.com.au/#q=papua+freedom+flotilla>

Paul1405 - You just do not want to accept the truth about corruption.

Try reading Is Mise from above.

I have been traveling around Asia for years and have seen the houses etc of the so called NGO's that administer the aid, also what they actually do and seen what some actually do.

Japan even had to go to the point of sending there own people to one country to oversee building of a bridge because the money from other projects disappeared.

Re quoting my quote to you in reply is out of context in this instance which further shows you do not on occasions think before posting.

To quote you "If you have any real evidence for what you claim in regards to aid to our Pacific neighbors, please present it. Otherwise take your own advice" I will not waste time rewording it for you but if you think long enough you should be able to see where you went wrong.

Is Mise,
I can't find anything about the flotilla after it left Thursday Island for Merauke. I was told they turned around at Thursday Island. What did actually eventuate with the boats ?

Philip S; I asked you to offer evidence If you have any real evidence for what you claim in regards to aid to our Pacific neighbors, please present it. Otherwise take your own advice "Please activate brain before applying fingers to keyboard to save future embarrassment."

As for the "I(Philip S) have been traveling around Asia for years and have seen the houses etc of the so called NGO's that administer the aid, also what they actually do and seen what some actually do." For your information Asia is not our Pacific neighbors. This is not evidence, how did you know who lived in what house? What does Australian aid in the Pacific have to do with Japanese aid, where ever you are talking about?

Here's one for all the whingers.

If this doesn't make some introspective of their and their new govt's mean-spirited, greedy, insular attitude, then nothing will.

http://www.smh.com.au/business/the-economy/aussies-the-worlds-richest-people-credit-suisse-20131009-2v7qy.html

"Australians remain the richest people in the world, by one measure at least.

The median wealth of adult Australians stands at $US219,505 ($233,504) - the highest level in the world, according to the Credit Suisse 2013 Global Wealth Report, released on Wednesday.

Median wealth is the midpoint between richest and poorest, meaning that 50 per cent of the population has more than $233,504, and 50 per cent less than that.

By the measure of average wealth, Australians fall back to second with $US402,578 per person, ranking behind the Swiss who were the world’s richest on $US513,000

Credit Suisse chief investment strategist, Australia, David McDonald said the nation’s household wealth per adult grew by 2.6 per cent in the past year. That was slower than the global average of 4.6 per cent, but Australia still had the best distribution of wealth among developed nations."

Poirot, that is true, by any measure of material wealth we in Australia are well off indeed. The fact we have a lot of "things" tends to make many of us insecure, we fear others will take from us, and also we need to maintain that material lifestyle, which for many is a burden. Lots of Australians with their busy materialistic lifestyles have lost sight of so many of the real values in life, family, friends, the value of interacting with other human beings, the satisfaction of helping to add to the quality of both their lives and the lives of others.
I don't for a minute advocate that those in the third world who are materially lest fortunate than us, should strive to become like us, I think they would loose so much if that was the case. Its good to see people in the third world trying to take the best from us, education, health, etc and use it to enrich their way of life. We in the developed world are in a position to give a helping hand to those that desperately need it, and so we should, both individually where we can, and collectively through government, foreign aid programs. `

Agreed, but not if that foreign aid is a subsidy for terrorism, genocide and murder.
We should give no aid to terrorists, in fact our law forbids it.

'where as the ideal minimum should be 0.50%.'

huh?

Which public servant picked that figure out of their ass?

'ideal'? Whose ideal?

Why not 10%? Why even give a figure like that? Why not 0.495%? Or 0.57698%? What sort of precision are we able to obtain? What is the standard on targets for agreement in principal, how many decimal places should the target value include?

I look forward to my meal including the ideal minimum .5 carrots, as designated by the global health and carrot institute, aligned with best practice in preparing meals involving carrots. Perhaps at the next global convention in Hawaii there will be a new standard target agreed too, in sensible round figures.

I can picture the hand shakes, after a definitive decision is made to agree on a timetable to decide on a target to be agreed upon in principle at the next meeting of this illustrious initiative at Rio, which will help the local economy.

We will save all the poor countries of the world by bringing our conferences to their doorstep, and employing their hookers while we decide on arbitrary definitions that will be used as political tools in the effort of increased funding them in the form of aid rather than these interminable meetings

Is Mise, I do not advocate supporting terrorism with Australian aid, no more than I advocate social security supporting criminality, although criminals often get social security.
I too support the struggle by West Papua against their Indonesian oppressors. they certainly have a legitimate cause, despite what Abbott had to say.

Houellebecq, your stupid childish post is not even worth replying to. Get your mum to change your nappy, and put you back in your cot with a bot bot and go back off to sleep.
How old are you? 6?

Foreign aid SHOULD NEVER be given by way of CASH.

The other point I would make, similar to Bellys first post, when our people are suffering, charity starts at home.

For too long now, our former government, and their supporters have been in denial about just where we sit.

There is trouble brewing and we need every spare cent we can get.

Finally, as for most poor countries, my best advice would be some serious birth control, otherwise we are simply contributing to a problem that will simply not go away.

rehctub,

".....when our people are suffering, charity starts at home.

For too long now, our former government, and their supporters have been in denial about just where we sit."

Did you happen to miss this earlier link?

http://www.smh.com.au/business/the-economy/aussies-the-worlds-richest-people-credit-suisse-20131009-2v7qy.html

That's: "Aussies the world's richest people: Credit Suisse"

rehctub. I am talking about our Pacific neighbors and Australian aid, I'm not familiar with Australian aid outside of the Pacific region. There is about 16 "countries" in the Pacific to which about 20% of our aid goes. from Fiji and Vanuatu, 2 countries I have visited in the past year, who receive $50m or $60m each the Solomon Islands about $190m the biggest in Australian aid down to Niue and the Cook Islands, I hope to visit there next year, it gets most of its help from New Zealand, who receive around $6m each.
You said;
Foreign aid SHOULD NEVER be given by way of CASH. Its not, our aid to these countries is program based and not in the form of cash handouts, besides the people surprisingly have little need for cash, what would they spend it on? wide screen TV's. What is needed is spending on basic health, education, and such like services, far more important than cash. As for population Fiji has about 900,000 hardly overpopulated with many living in rural villages. A little country like Niue the population is falling.
"There is trouble brewing and we need every spare cent we can get." I don't agree that Australia is that "poor" we need to cut aid in this way.

Oh so funny Paul, my post was infinitely more sophisticated than your reply. You need an injection of lighten the f^ck up man.

Hey Poirot I agree we are living in the best country in the world and we have the most amazing lifestyle, and I've been to around 50 different countries and the only thing we're missing is culcha and any sense we're actually part of a wider world.

I met a French guy the other day and he actually likes that about this place, go figure.

Anyway I think people, y'all, are talkin' at cross purposes. There is two ishoooos. The pick a finger out of your ass figure we 'should' be spending, in cash, and the best mechanism for actually helping these unlucky people.

Actually there's many. There's the give a man a fish or teach him to fish yadda yadda, there's government vs NGOs, effectiveness and control, democracy and the use of tax dollars, there's a whole swathe of unethical business practices, there's tourism, there's protectionism, but no, Paul is obsessed with his .5% cash, decided on by who knows who, perhaps an expert in the human rights industry or some such parasite, trekking around the world and nodding earnestly in conferences in exotic locations.

It's the way of the world, sure, but all I'm rambling about is it's a much more complex issue than .5% man.

To me, it's like people complaining about the price of groceries, and at the same time paying 70 basis points too much on their $500k mortgage.

So, you have to take these 'cuts' in context of the wider policy. I'm not for or against this comparison with an arbitrary figure of .5%, I just find it curious and amusing. Besides as someone said, the game is really about the threat of what aid you can withdraw for political purposes. Aid has always really been a means to an end, like the godfather paying a few gambling debts, he's gonna want something of your soul, and the bleeding hearts god bless them think it's about helping poor people

' we need to maintain that material lifestyle, which for many is a burden. Lots of Australians with their busy materialistic lifestyles have lost sight of so many of the real values in life, family, friends, the value of interacting with other human beings, the satisfaction of helping to add to the quality of both their lives and the lives of others.'

They have 'lost sight' in your opinion, based on your projection of what their values should be. Other people have 'lost sight' of The Lord, some have 'lost sight' of the environment, I reckon lots of people have 'lost sight' of the true nature and essence of sport.

So.... government should take their money away and give it to some people in other countries. It will enrich them! Be good for them! Says Paul.

Look, Paul, glad you're happy with your lifestyle, and glad you're discovered a new god to replace your old materialist god, I get it that you're a reformed smoker, but some people still enjoy a toke. No doubt you have an economic situation that allows you to sacrifice whatever it is you do. A certain buffer not every citizen would have.

What is too much, is you deciding for all people what you believe they should be sacrificing for others, by way of where their tax dollars are used. Just like a greenie living in the inner city bemoaning the bogan who lives in Penrith why he uses his car so much.

Just accept people have different means, and different values. Maybe they mow their neighbors lawn while you're off helping Fijians. Maybe they feel passionate about that.

Poirot if you had even a trace of analytical ability you would have understood the true message of the article you linked.

The message any one with half a brain should get from it is not the spin it is pushing, but what it means.

That is that our housing is greatly overpriced.

That tens of thousands of Ozzies are struggling because of that.

They are not made rich by the price of housing, but made very poor as they struggle with the effort to buy a home, or pay the rent required to service the high price of whatever they are renting.

Slip out into the Pacific & you will find people we are supposed to fund with foreign aid, who can feed themselves with less than a couple of hours effort a day, & clothes themselves for a few minutes effort a week.

The same people can house themselves for a couple of weeks effort a year. If anyone should be receiving aid it should be us from them. I used to wonder how we ever convinced any of them to work in our style.

Forty years of this work earns us the right to retire to sit on a beach, & think about catching a fish or two. Hell this is what they do all their lives for gods sake.

Continued.

Continued

Then we get Paul. He wants us to educate them. What a fool. They have all the education they need to live their superior life style. They know how to;
Build a canoe for nothing;
Catch all the fish they need;
Build a house;
Harvest & open a coconut;
And how to grow some taro.

What the hell does he think he can teach them?
How to work 9 to 5;
How to complain about the "bosses";
How to organize a strike.

There is not a damn thing useful that Paul could teach anyone but a fool lefty undergraduate in one of our almost useless universities, & certainly nothing useful to man or beast.

There is a lot they could teach our Poirot & Paul, if their minds weren't closed like a steel trap.

Time our money was spent trying to rehabilitate some of the poor brainwashed fools, we have already "educated".

Ignorance is the major cause of unpleasant
disconnects between people. In extreme cases,
terrorism aimed at killing fellow human beings exists
and has to be explained. The lack of exposure to
other cultures leads to narrow-mindedness and, worse, to
an "us-them" divide.

Education is the answer.

Hasbeen, your ignorance on this subject knows no bounds. take this bit of rubbish.
"Slip out into the Pacific & you will find people we are supposed to fund with foreign aid, who can feed themselves with less than a couple of hours effort a day, & clothes themselves for a few minutes effort a week."
In the highland village I visited recently which is only accessible by 4WD, the men work 6 days a week in the gardens growing food, both cash crops and home food, to get their crop to market it requires a truck which costs $160 for the day, So much for your "couple of hours work a day" nonsense. Where wages are $2.50 to $4 tops an hour for those in a job, a shirt costs $15 and a good pair of sandals $30 and you need a serviceable pair I can tell you I paid $55. Milk $3.25/Lt only long life, if you are mega rich you can buy a 200g block of Cadburys chocolate for $8. Housing is 1 room with a kitchen annex, no power or running water, not much in the way of furniture, mostly woven floor mats, everyone eats and sleeps on the floor, 12 including kids. I can't be bothered exploring the rest of your rubbish.
As I said Hasbeen, your ignorance knows no bounds. It would be a waste of time explaining to you the value of education, health services etc to these people. It would be more productive talking to a baboon than it is to you.

It would be more productive talking to a baboon than it is to you.
Paul1405,
What ? You're not a Baboon ? I think you are by the way you dismiss Hasbeen's experience.

Dear Individual,

What about Paul's experience?
He merely responded to Hasbeen's post
and spoke of what he (Paul) had experienced that was totally
different from what Hasbeen was citing.

We've seen that people in different walks of life may
interpret the same phenomenon - in very different ways.
In other words, people tend to see the world from a
viewpoint of subjectivity - an interpretation influenced
by one's background, training, education, and prior
experiences as well as personal values.

Inevitably we're all guilty of some measure of bias -
the tendency, often unconscious, to interpret things
according to one's own values. As in you calling
Paul a "baboon." I gather that's
because Paul's views disagree with your values,
whereas Hasbeen's don't - hence the name calling of one
and not the other.

cont'd ...

I forgot to add that yes, I'm guilty of
the same bias as well. Paul's views are
more of a match to my values than those of
Hasbeen. Hence my being more sympathetic
to Paul's views than those of Hasbeen.

Indi, when it comes to the funnies you just can't cut it. I think you could do with 2 years "training" in your very own Gomer Pyle Memorial Boot Camp digging ditches while you swagger about saying "Golly Sargent Carter I don't know s#$t!"

Thank you Paul, you prove my point completely.

If the damn fools interfering busybodies had not "educated" the poor locals in the highlands or the islands they would not want cash crops. They had no need of cash crops, no need for trucks or busybodies in 4WDs interfering in their existence.

What a pity some fool built the 4WD track in there, when a district officer had to walk in, fools like you stayed in Moresby doing little damage.

I'll bet the money from those fool cash crops was being spent on imported bully beef & rice, rather than their own healthy diet.

You get worse don't you. Shorts for god sake. Yes a must have after thousands of years of taupe & grass skirts. And sandals. They have been growing some of the best leather on earth on the soles of their feet for just as long, but some clown talks them into cash crops so they can buy sandals. Did you want them to wear socks with those by any chance?

Still I suppose it was essential they get chocolate, it would be a pity not to destroy the kids teeth while you're there, as if betel nut is not bad enough.

You really do prove that foreign aid is bad news for the recipients, & when fools like you get involved with simple folk, nothing but harm results.

Foxy by defending Paul & his faux experiences you're making yourself just as bad. Paul is most likely one of those 17 year old radical students who still has yet to grow hair in certain places & learn about the differences between the sexes & teachers.

Indi, your too much, up there in the Deep, Deep North spending your days listing to recordings of "The Diatribes of Old Joh" on 78's, watching reruns of "Combat" thinking you are Sergeant "Chip" Saunders and dreaming of the glory days when the first conscripts arrive for training at your Gomer Pyle Memorial Boot Camp, all awhile sucking on another can of XXXX. Indi that stuff will rot your brain, but in your case I think you are perfectly safe.
Hasbeen by name hasbean by nature. I know Great Grandpa Hasbeen stopped the clock on Xmas Day 1887 and all the Hasbeen clan have been locked in a 19th century time warp every since. Sorry Hasbeen. your talking about the wrong island. I see you as a Tarzan figure to the Indigenous people, a modern day Johnny Weissmuller.
If you had your way you would lock the "simple folk" of the Pacific as you like to call them, into your time warp, but all along exploiting them and their land to the hilt for your profit. Contrary to your way of thinking life for many is not all grass skirts and hula dancing. In the Islands there are real issues and real problems with health and education etc. Regardless of your 19th century way of thinking its a modern world and nothing will wind back the clock to pr-colonial days. Like Australia, Fiji and the other nations of the Pacific including New Guinea realise they have to fit into this 21st century world, and rather than rejecting help, people welcome our assistance as equal partners, not as masters.
If as you advocate Australia withdraws aid from the Pacific I can assure you China is ready willing and able to step in and fill the vacuum created.
"What a pity some fool built the 4WD track" maybe it was Grandpa Hasbeen using Coolie labour to get to "his" plantation, I don't know but its there and if Australian money don't improve it one day then Chinese money will.

Paul1405,
You're exposing yourself as an even bigger git thatn we first thought you were. As for your remark on Hasbeen well, as he said it before here, better a hasbeen than a never was. You're exposing yourself as a never was & you're only a teenager.

As forChina is ready willing and able to step in and fill the vacuum created. China is merely exploiting the vacuum that is in our experts from the left. I have seen what do-gooder mentality has done to villagers in remote country, it destroyed them & people like you who have never once stood up & offered a solution can't do better than childish ridicule. I'm sure once you hit your late 20's you'll suddenly realise the silliness of your indoctrinated do-gooder mentality. I think it may be too late for the Marylins & Suseonlines' but you could still have a chance.

Wow Paul, you sure must have spent a lot of time watching bad television.

Still better than the result you get meditating on your navel, & becoming a legend in your own lunchtime.

Do tell me one thing, what colour sucks do you wear with your designer sandals?

Gentlemen,

Can't we stop with the personal insults and have
a serious discussion - even if we may disagree?
Everyone's experience is surely worth hearing -
even though it may be different to ours.

There are valid arguments that all over the world,
and especially in the less developed societies,
the pressure of the human population and its
technologies are devastating natural ecosystems.
This pressure takes many forms - urbanisation and
highway construction, transformation of virgin land into
farmland, chemical pollution of fresh water, dredging and
landfill in coastal areas, uncontrolled hunting and
poaching, especially of African wildlife, deliberate
accidental poisoning of wildlife with pestides,
disruption of natural predator-prey relationships,
strangulation of millions of birds and fish with
discarded styrofoam pellets, plastic bags and other
synthetic flotsam, dam construction and irrigation, and
massive deforestation.

There are many practical reasons why human society should
protect other life forms - and education is part and parcel
of this process. The two go hand-in-hand. Today, the most
advanced industrialised societies having caused the
greatest destruction of planetary ecosystems in the past
are beginning to try and protect the threatened and
endangered species - of course there continues to be
economic interests that claim federal governments are
"locking up" land needed for oil exploration, logging,
mining, or housing and recreation facilities.
It's a constant battle. We're told that there are so many
Australian native species that are threatened with
extinction

Foxy, I couldn't agree more. Once more you have stated the truth far better than I every could. Today we live in a complex and interdependent world, no person or people are isolated from the 21st century. Regardless of what some of use regard as ideal, progress in a modern world is inevitable. As for the indigenous of the Pacific my partner who is Maori puts it this way; The important thing is our culture, language, traditions and protocols, respect for the past and the people. However she is very much aware of past history but is most forgiving for wrongs perpetrated against her personally, and her people, she has absolutely no animosity towards the Pakeha (white man) what so ever, some of those people were very well intentioned, she will say. These days she is on a quest to understand the history of the people of the Pacific, and she finds visiting the people and places we do most rewarding. One thing my partner is most proud of is that some of her young whanau (family)are embracing the modern world with study at university, good jobs etc, but still maintaining, and being proud of their Maori heritage. She sees this applying to all the people of the Pacific.

Dear Paul,

Thank You for your kind words and for sharing the
information about your partner. She sounds like
a wonderful lady. If only more people thought that
way the world would be a better place. My husband
and I are hoping to get to Sydney this Summer for
Yoko Ono's Art Exhibition at the Museum of Contemporary
Art (The Rocks), "War is Over! (If You Want it)."

Ono's Art covers the personal to the political including
themes such as loss, conflict, humanity, and of course
the desire for world peace. It's part of the Sydney
International Art Series.

I'm looking forward to it very much. It might be of
interest to quite a few posters - especially those
who live in Sydney. It's on from 15th November 2013
to 23 February 2014.

Can't we stop with the personal insults and have a serious discussion - even if we may disagree?
Foxy,
i couldn't agree more. Can you please ask the do-gooders to stop insulting those of us who know ? It'd be a good start to stop the insults. You see they're insulting us at every post with dismissing our actual experiences & knowledge.
The ball's in their court. Get out of that comfort zone that is idealism & spend time awakening in real life.

Dear Individual,

I'm not interested in deliberately creating
divisions. There's already too much effort
employed in partisan politics which could
be much better utilised in positive pursuits.

As for idealism?

There's no greater folly than the fear of idealism.

"Can you please ask the do-gooders to stop insulting those of us who know?" etc etc. Well thank you "God". What a conceited, pompous attitude if there ever was one. Indi, I recall many of your inane postings and you want us to bow down to your superior knowledge. FAT CHANCE!
"Paul is most likely one of those 17 year old radical students" etc etc. Methuselah, you wise old owl, how did you know I was 17? Does that mean in 2 years time I'll be conscripted to do national service in your Gomer Pyle Memorial Boot Camp, up there in Cape York, will you be my Drill Sargent? I can't wait.

Foxy, Yoko Ono's Art Exhibition at the Museum of Contemporary
Art (The Rocks), "War is Over! (If You Want it)." 5th November 2013
to 23 February 2014. We will certainly get in to see it. I consider Yoko Ono and John Lennon 2 of the outstanding human beings of the 20th Century.
We will be in Aotearoa over Xmas for a number of "Maori Unveilings" about 5 I think, and whanau reunion. But will have plenty of time after that for the exhibition.

".....Can you please ask the do-gooders to stop insulting those of us who know ?..."

Lol!

Some interesting and informative posts on this thread.
I thought I knew a bit about New Guinea but I have to bow to the knowledge evident in many of the posts.
My stay there goes back a bit and I recall it as a pleasant and interesting time, I enjoyed the country and its people.
Take it easy.

SD

Dear Paul
You wrote of your Maori partner "However she is very much aware of past history but is most forgiving for wrongs perpetrated against her personally, and her people, she has absolutely no animosity towards the Pakeha (white man) what so ever"

I wonder does she know if the Moriori people are also so forgiving. Does she know them. Please ask her. I think she will remember. They are the ones that her ancestors invaded their land, without permission and began to brutally kill nearly every single one of them " like sheep" if I remember correctly. Your partners people, the Maori, tried their best to just exterminate a race of people who believed in harmony and peace. I wonder if they are so forgiving.

I would be interested to hear her response. Has she and her people apologised to them.

Ozzie, what I know of T's tribe the Ngatihine from Northland they represent about 1/3 of all Maori and the ancestors were not too friendly. In fact they sided with the British during the Maori Wars.
What about King Kamehameha I of Hawaii, he didn't muck about, had 700-800 people pushed off a cliff. In Fiji the chief would have you bumped off for stepping on his shadow. Interesting.

Paul, I see your point. However the last time I was in NZ just a few months ago ( beautiful Country) I could see that the Maori seemed to have a lot of special privileges as the white man was made to feel sorrow for what they had done. I was asking you in my last post, what kind of apology or similar, your partner and her people had made to the Moriori for their brutal and racist treatment of them. Please ask your partner. thanks.

Ozzie, "T" does not know a great deal about the Moriori people and the ancestors, she is not certain they were in Aotearoa but there were other Maori there when her ancestors the Ngatihine arrived. The Nagatihine were war like and forced others off the lands in the north.

Here is a link to the Origins of the Moriori people from the encyclopedia of NZ. http://www.teara.govt.nz/en/moriori/page-1

"Maori seemed to have a lot of special privileges as the white man was made to feel sorrow for what they had done."
My partner is not aware of any "special privileges" she ever received growing up. If you call being belted at school in the 1950's for speaking her native language and being given a European name to replace your birth name amongst other things "special privileges". If you call having your family disposed of their land by trickery and then seeing your home burnt down by the Pakeha as "special privilege". To this day European farmers still hold "T" family land and they have as yet been unable to get it back through the Maori land court. Put simply her father was illiterate and was conned into signing over the land, thinking he was leasing it, for about $500 worth of store credit. then the homestead along with many others were burnt down so the people couldn't return. The present day owner has offered about 10 acres as a gift, as he doesn't feel he should pay for the past.

The occupation of Aotearoa by the European is unique by the fact the Maori were never defeated by the British and the occupation today is based on the Treaty of Waitangi

Hi Paul,

Not foreign aid related, but here's a further example if the LNP's miserable parsimony.

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/hit-and-run-on-crime-prevention-likely-20131012-2vf25.html

"...Father Riley hit out at the Coalition's decision, pointing out that national crime prevention grants were funded through the proceeds of crime rather than general revenue and were not election promises.

''I don't understand this, the proceeds of crime is not taxpayer money,'' Father Riley said.

Justice Minister Michael Keenan said: ''The government is currently working through the arrangements required to implement our election commitments.

"In the meantime, we are in the process of advising organisations who were promised funding under the national crime prevention fund not to make any financial commitments on the basis of commitments made by the former government.''

So much for Abbott being the charity guy...

No photo ops in marginal seats - no charity.

Paul,

I did not ask if you partner knew alot about the Moriori, I sure she does not, probably because thanks to her Maori people they were all exterminated. Indeed a few years after her Maori people invaded the Islands where the Moriori lived harmoniously there was less than 5% of the populations still alive. That's right less than 5% left alive. By the early 1930s the last full blood Moriori died. Your partners Maori people banned the Moriori at the time from marrying each other or from having children.
And I hear you say you partner was punished for speaking her language. Sounds the same as what her people did to the Moriori, yes they also banned them altogether from speaking Moriori.
You say her family was cheated out of there farm and the farm burnt down. One of the survivors of the Maori invasion described how men, women and children ran away and tried to hide down holes, but were discovered and KILLED ( not just their land taken away and homes burnt down, but KILLED) and in many cases eaten, yes eaten by your partners people. Paul, which fate would you choose.
And what was the excuse of the Maori, they claim it was their custom to invade, take the land of others and KILL them. Yes that right, read that last line again, that's how your partners people tried to justify invading an island and killing just about everyone, it was their custom.
Like I said Paul I did not ask if you partner new alot about the Moriori, I asked if she and her people had apologised for their brutal racist behaviour which resulted in the extermination of a group of peace loving people.

Paul, here is a documented account taken from one of the rare survivors of your partners people's invasion, from one of award winning author Jared Diamonds books

[The Maori] commenced to kill us like sheep.... [We] were terrified, fled to the bush, concealed ourselves in holes underground, and in any place to escape our enemies. It was of no avail; we were discovered and killed - men, women and children indiscriminately." A Maori conqueror explained, "We took possession... in accordance with our customs and we caught all the people. Not one escaped....." The invaders ritually killed some 10% of the population, a ritual that included staking out women and children on the beach and leaving them to die in great pain over several days. The Maori invaders forbade the speaking of the Moriori language. They forced Moriori to desecrate their sacred sites by urinating and defecating on them. Moiriori wished they had been colonized by the English and had the protection of the Treaty of Waitangi.

Really incredible to see how brutal and racist the Maori were. Paul, does your partner and her people intend to give back the land they stole?

Ozzie, you seem to put a lot of stock in the writings of one, the American Jared Diamond. In fact you take what Mr Diamond has written as Gospel, and it may well be so. Then again it may be unsubstantiated fiction. Do you have any corroborating evidence?
Why the anger? Based on the assertion of an American writer, I'm sure Mr Diamond's books make the most interesting of reading. However, as for the facts as presented by him, they may or may not be true. I don't know, nor do you!
"Really incredible to see how brutal and racist the Maori were." They most likely were, as I said a very war like people.
Paul, does your partner and her people intend to give back the land they stole? ASK THEM!
"Moiriori wished they had been colonized by the English and had the protection of the Treaty of Waitangi." Is that your own observation, or is it fact?

Thanks for that Poirot, part of the conservatives mantra "Lock em' up and throw away the key." Tough on crime, but at what cost to our young people. Sure makes me sick, plenty of money for other things but nothing for what really matters.