Unlike the now imfamous carbon tax lie, I think we can all relax with Tony Abbotts promise not to alter the GST.

He has even said openly that he won't touch the GST IN THIS TERM OF GOVERNMENT, so, reading between the lines would suggest it may well be on the agenda come election time, as unlike labor, or more so Julia Gillard, he will have the decency to take to the electorate, much like John Howard did.

On the subject of GST, if it is to be altered, then this most needy should be allowed to claim back some of their tax through the likes of Medicare, a move that could be means tested.

But I still say a transaction tax would be a worthwhile option to explore.

The simple fact is that increasing the rate of GST would be the most obvious and painless means to lift the overall taxation rate, if that needs to happen. Since it already exempts food, it will have minimal impact on the poorer members of our community.

And if it does, there are already many dozens of avenues for relief to be exploited, so there's no need to have a specific "GST rebate", as offered by rehctub.

It was obviously good politics, but poor financial foresight, for Mr Abbott to rule out a GST adjustment. The alternatives, if he really feels the need to pull back on the public debt, will involve mass asset sales, Medibank and Australia Post being first cabs off the rank.

What the government must realize, as many have before and many will again, is that there are limits to the amount of short-term savings that can be made by cutting into the public service. Without an adequate plan to have the employment slack taken up by private enterprise, all you are doing is transferring their costs from Government Departments to the dole. Slimming down - which is of course absolutely essential, we are so heavily weighted towards taxpayer-funded jobs-for-the-boys - will take an entire generation of consistent pruning and trimming.

So it is a great pity that Mr Abbott has hamstrung himself with this "promise".

What remains to be seen, of course, is whether it is actually a "core" or a "non-core" promise.

Rehctub while I agree with you totally, that Abbott is going to play the game fairly, telling us what he wants/has to do, & why, I can't see much reason for a change in tax mix.

It doesn't matter a damn whether the tax is taken as a GST, income tax, or a transaction tax, it is still going to cost heaps to administer & distribute, & all that is going to filter through to an increase in prices.

I reckon it is time for a drastic cut in welfare & government spending. It is crazy to pay some bureaucrat to take money off me, [income tax or charges], then pay another to pay my bills for me. Considering the rate at which we all know public servants work I can't imagine a more expensive way to pay my bills.

For god sake, leave us with our money, let us pay our own expenses, then help just a little if necessary those who are too dumb to organize things for themselves.

The welfare state must collapse sooner or later, under the weight of entitlement. It would be much less damaging for almost everyone if we dismantle it ourselves, rather than have it fall on top of us as with Greece.

Unfortunately I doubt Tony has the guts to be kind & tough enough to do it. So folks, stick your hand out for everything you can grasp, convert it to gold, & bury it carefully as insurance for the coming crunch.

Or just piss it up down the club, & have some fun memories when it gets tough. What ever you find best is fine, just don't fool yourself that your grand kids will have it anywhere near as good as we have, with you spending their future now.

Unless we stop trying to give everyone the standard of living they desire without asking them to pay a bit for it themselves, watch out grandkids.

Pericles, come on mate, just think of it. Transferring a hundred thousand public servants to the dole, would reduce our handout to these useless mouths quite dramatically. Something like 50/60 thousand a head should help the budget no end, & think of the peak hour congestion saved.

Reducing the number of in boxes in government departments by a hundred thousand or so, would increase business efficiency so greatly, any of those eliminated from our payroll worth employing would soon be absorbed in industry so boosted.

You can't trust Tony Abbott on anything.

("Stop the Boats", for instance - has just become "Hide the boats")

By my count, since the election, the LNP has continued borrowing in 3 lots of $800 million + 1 lot of $200 million.

Here's one of 'em:

http://www.businessinsider.com.au/australia-borrows-800m-whatever-2013-9#share

I thought they were going to stop that malarkey?

Sorry rechtub but I think you are wrong.
And as I have said in past thread and a dormant one here two days ago.
It is in my view in all our interests to raise it.
Most in formed folk will know it was the ALP who first mentioned it not John Howard.
And in all truth it offers us all a great deal, including the ability to drop, forever many small and hard to administer taxs.
Too the chance to introduce a form of *protectionism*
On line shoppers mostly do not pay and taxing at the same rate,*if a way to do so can be found * we protect Australian jobs.
Every one should understand we need a level of taxation to fund our asked for levels of so very much including health education and too many to list.
Abbott Rechtub has not hidden his intention to include this review of GST in his tax review.
We should not however trust any one to do our bidding.
I wish both sides would stop using this tax as a weapon and use it to deliver services we are now cutting.

Of cause the GST will be reviewed when all taxes are reviewed, simply because if TA decides to take any changes to the next election, which I think he will, he must first try to fimd the flaws and potential alterations needed, if any.

Too right Rrehctub, sure we can, just like we can trust the fox in the hen house, Abbott and his cronies will have the GST at 15% before you know it. At the moment billions of dollars in GST goes straight into the pockets of small business with their tax rip offs. Does anyone honestly believe that business does not rip billions out of the tax system. The pressure is on Abbott to hike the GST so business can get their snouts deeper into the trough.
The trouble with the CARBON TAX was business couldn't rip it off like the do to the GST and other taxes. Here we have the conservatives all singing from the same song sheet, more tax, more tax. Abbott is finding out that you can't run government with glib on liners, the way he run policy when in opposition, its now a different ball game. This government will soon prove itself the worse government since the Howard government. Watch out folks a new version of WORK CHOICES will soon be coming your way.

We don't need any more taxes.Get our RBA to create just our inflationary money of 3% GDP = $30 billion pa + interest.

Our banks here will benefit since they will not have to borrow from OS central banks. More money will stay here so our fractional reserve system will work better for us.

We really should make it compulsory for our Pollies to read the OLO Forum twice daily as all the answers to Australias problems can be found therein.
Free too !

SD

<< The simple fact is that increasing the rate of GST would be the most obvious and painless means to lift the overall taxation rate, if that needs to happen. >>

Yes!

I’m amazed to find myself in agreement with you, Pericles!

We certainly should have a bigger tax-to-earnings ratio.

<< …there are limits to the amount of short-term savings that can be made by cutting into the public service. >>

YES!

Hells bells, I agree with you again Peri !!

Basically the public service might need to be made a tad more efficient, but otherwise should be left alone!

But the really big factor that just always gets left out of this sort of discussion is the ever-rapidly-increasing demand for everything!

We need ever-more government revenue to provide services and infrastructure in order to just provide the same standard of living for ever-more people, with scant little effort actually going into, or resulting in, significant improvements for the existing population.

Basically the our taxes are very strongly going into duplicating everything that is needed for ever-more people to have the Australia way of life, and nowhere near enough into improving things for the existing population!

** Reduce immigration to net zero! Head directly towards a stable population! **

THIS is what we need to do in conjunction with an increased tax ratio and a more efficient public service, amongst other things.

But of course, this is COMPLETELY absent from Abbott’s mindset!!

Rechtub what is this of cause stuff?
Pre election Abbott said no he would not raise the GST.
But refused to tell why he was bothering to review it?
Both sides need head butting, both want it know it is an answer, but use it to flog the other side.
Is it understood some from both sides, count me in, want it raised.
And do we understand along with less waste raising tax is the first step to keeping service levels we want and ask for.
And returning the budget to the black.

As a first choice I would suggest that the ATO set about collecting all the available GST. By there own admission they only collect around %38 of the total pool because the neither have the resources nor the staff to do so.
The problem is that the cash economy has grown enormously with the introduction of GST registration and BAS activity based on personal honesty.
I ask any of you to take note of just how many small businesses and tradies taking unreceipted cash. Most take away businesses don't have efpos and only accept cash.
It has been estimated that if all the GST was collected the income tax liability on the ordinary worker would not cut in until $60,000.
Now how do we collect it?
Very simple we supply a cash register system, similar to the system in use by the Queensland Treasury to monitor every poker machine in the state 24/7.
We use the existing infrastructure of Medicare (which is a bank really)to collect the GST information and if businesses are caught not using the till the owners are imprisoned for a minimum of 12 months.
A temporary increase in the GST could be used to fund the technology needed. The NBN is already out there as the carrier.
Problem solved.

Just an update:

In addition to the $2 billion dollars which has already been borrowed since the Abbott government came to power....

(according to Stephen Koukoulas)

"Govt borrowings in the week ahead: $800 mil for three years; $500 mil for 3 months; $500 mil or six months; $800 mil for 11 years; Total $2.6 bil by Friday"

"Australia's gross debt now $276.6 billion. It was $273.2 billion on 6 Sept 2013"

Come on Poirot, stop making a fool of yourself.

The election of a new & better government DOES NOT stop the requirement to pay the interest on the debt accumulated by a previous disastrous government.

In fact I do seem to recall sensible people trying to tell you & others on here that our grandkids would be still paying off that debt, long after the fools who committed us to it are dead & buried. Strangely you had no problem with that debt at the time. Do be careful, at the rate you are spinning, you will soon have a bored a hole you could never climb out of. Oh of course, you already have, & are now merely sniping at passers by from the bottom.

Hey chrisgaff1000, you lot really do like parting a worker from their money don't you. If you want to stick anyone in prison, may I suggest you make it the criminals who were running the last government, who committed us to the debt with which we are now burdened.

In a society, where bleeding heart magistrates give armed robbers suspended sentences, I am inclined to think 12 months for missing the till with a few bob is a little extreme.

Pray tell, just how long would you give the employee who pockets similar amounts of money, a couple of years perhaps? After all they have robbed their boss, but they have also pocketed the same amount of GST as well, so two crimes at once. What do you reckon, or is prison only for business folk, not employees?

Hasbeen,

Yes dear...I realise that.

But considering one (of the many) three-word slogans sprinkled liberally upon the electorate during the recent campaign was...

"From Day One..."

Stop the boats....buy the boats....fix the economy....etc.

"From day one"

(noting they didn't waste any time dispensing with the things they could..."From Day One")

Baloney.....

Poirot,

You big fibber!

Tony DID NOT say he would stop the boats "From Day One..."

Oowah! I am going to tell Miss Julia on you and you will be in big trouble.

I think all the left whingers are trying judge the coalition by Labor standards.

Guys, Just because Juliar and Dudd lied and broke just about every promise, does not mean that the coalition will.

Abbott promised no change to the GST in this parliament. He will sponser a review of the tax system in its entirety and will implement the recommendations that are appropriate.

Just remember that the Henry tax review in Dudd's time recommended about 200 changes, of which Dudd cherry picked, and gave us the mining tax.

SPQR,

Fair enough,...although he did say ""We'll make a difference from day one".

Scott Morrison repeated the line: "We'll make a difference from day one when it comes to illegal boat arrivals to Australia,"

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-06-06/abbott-vows-to-stop-asylum-boats-in-first-term/4736294

The LNP election hasn't made any difference at all...."From day one".

And now they're attempting to pull a swifty by limiting the coverage of which Morrison was so fond of in his almost daily light musical for the press.

Hasbeen,
Go into a Chinese or Asian take away, even in the malls, and try to pay by efpos. (which is as good as cash). See how many knock backs you get.
I, probably like you, paid taxes all the working life, because we had to under threat of imprisonment for tax evasion and we expected that at the end of our working life we would get the old age pension. But then they brought in superannuation and that was going to fix everything.
Now we are told that most won't have enough super to live,an equivalent lifestyle, on. There will be no lump sum payments and it seems there will be death penalties as well. You will get a weekly payment from your super fund managers.
I personally object to any business that takes product for their personal use and does not pay fringe benefits tax, that takes cash and does not either declare it or pay GST on it or pays their lifestyle expenses like the kids preschool fees out of the till.
Yes staff do rob the owner, I have locked a few of them up but for the most owners won't make a official complaint because the evidence trail leads back to their own raids on the till for cash.
The double entry system of bookkeeping went out the door years ago with the separate entity of the business from the owner.
If you can't collect all the GST the increase it to 20%

I can not agree with Chris Gaff on super.
I took mine twice as the law alowed.
At age 55 I pulled out of my government job, and thought I was to be self employed.
Then for just over ten years worked as a union official, best job of my life.
My supper is helping keep me, and every one should consider it as a true investment.
Not without help a self funded or little known investment firm, be careful.
GST is worth a thought 25% increase to 12.5% is going to help our mounting needs for infrastructure.

As with the other thread, I conclude I am living in a different Australia.

I live in a small country town (1200 people). I even pay my lawn-mower man via direct debit at the bank, on invoice, GST included. In fact it's actually hard to get people to take cash, or a cheque - the local electricity office has closed - now I pay on line (though I could pay EFTPOS at the PO). I also pay the telephone bill on line, since they started charging extra for EFTPOS at the PO.

Last year I travelled through western NSW: Bourke, Brewarrina, Barringun, Cobar, Wilcannia, Broken Hill. Everyone has EFTPOS everywhere.

Cossomby
I talking about the Asian and ethnic businesses. They just don't believe in tax let alone GST
Belly'
I was lucky too. I had to sacrifice over 12 months time off in lieu to get my super out in cash.
Three other superintendents I worked left it for another three month before pulling the plug and they left with a pension way below their weekly wage.
Fortunately because of my specialty I get a lot of consultant work on $75.00 ph min otherwise no fishing or 4x4 drives.

All that assessment in just one week Paul1405.

Never mind, you will get your chance to reinstaight your beloved labor in three years at the most.

Problem is, I doubt Tony can make as many stuff ups as labor did, so good luck with that.

As for work choices, I'm assuming you are one those who think wages should only ever go up.

Belly, if TA decides to change the GST he will take it to the electorate.

In order to make any changes, he must first review the tax, i suspect this is why it's on the agenda for review.

Make sense to me.

Personally, as you know I would prefer to see a transaction tax put on the table for serious discussion.

http://www.smh.com.au/comment/either-we-pay-the-tax-or-we-lose-the-service-20130923-2u9zb.html
Rechtub you are an extraordinary bloke!
Read first the link, understand it is not Labor propaganda but follows closely my reasons both sides must consider reviewing then raising the GST.
Then know I support Tony Abbott breaking his promise and doing just that, increase the GST.
We Australians, need desperately, to stop using things that are good for the country to flog each other.
We must review the whole tax system, including a rise in the GST.

Now too, do you think we elected a saint? Abbott already has implemented slippery near lies as policy,s, boat people crushing the climate change and much more.
Think what you want of me, after Labor picks its new leader Abbott,s polling will fall further than Gillards did.

Belly,

While I agree with you on the need for tax reform in order to cater for an aging population, there is more chance of hell freezing over before Abbott raises the GST before 2017 for the following reasons:

a) The result of Juliar and Bligh breaking fundamental promises leaves no doubt that doing this is a guaranteed ticket to losing office.

b) Raising the GST is all political pain for the federal government with all the gain going to the states.

c) Any raising of the GST is going to need to be sold strongly to the voters which will require an independent tax review that strongly recommends it, and ALL the states strongly supporting it.

d) A sweetener such as lowering stamp duty, or removing other taxes.

This is not going to happen before 2017, and maybe not before 2020.

Belly, an extract from your link....

....''I think the pressure that will come on Tony Abbott as Prime Minister is that all the states will say the GST is not growing sufficiently to fund basic services like health and education.

Do Australians really mind that much if the GST was 10 per cent or 12.5 per cent, if it means maintaining high-quality health and education, disability services and the like?

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I suspect the Australian people are mature enough to say: 'We'll cop that'.''

Of cause the other thing people would say is, 'what a shame labor wasted so much of our money, as we could have had better health, education reform and our elderly would have been better off'.

Labor 2007-13 sure have a lot to answer for.

The fact is tha the states can moan and bitch as much as they like, the GST WILL NOT change unless Tony Abbott takes it to an election.

As for the boats, TA has already upset the Indonesians, so he must be on the right track, as they care as much about the boats leaving, as we do wanting to stop them, corruption is a terrible thing.

Rechtub let me pat you on the head we agree on NRL and nothing else.
We never will, but if you look harder you will find in my comments in this thread and about 100 posts in others.
I regard it as no sin, but indeed a good act to use the GST to better harvest taxation.
We can all benefit by true reform, tax and yes as you will say waste.
While forever on different sides, [liked your low blow about Labors waste]we both want services from government.
AGAIN let me remind you it was a Labor government Minister Keiting who first bought it up here, it inhabits many parts of the world.
And you need not dig far to see I am *forever* against both sides both wanting it and using it to flog each other, I blame us, for letting both sides pull the wool over our eyes.
Labor in three years time will be a whole new and inventive party.
I hope we have the guts to not change any rises to GST back to its current unfair levels giving some states too little and others too much.

It seems to me that including the GST when reviewing tax is quite
reasonable. You just cannot do other than take into account the effect
of the GST on state revenues and those other revenues.

That does not mean you are looking at changes in the GST.
If you cannot see that then I am sorry for you.

Folks
Take it from me there will be a GST rise. It will be 5% and include certain food and it will be 10% on luxury items. That will put an end to the government having no money in the bank.

Chris, this is Tony Abbott and the libs, not Julia Gilard and labor.

I think it will be fair game next election though, but they must find ways to protect the poor from any increases.

I agree with you Chris totally.
But look no way around this I am stunned that Rechtub has forgeten Abbott is a politician, there fore not to be trusted.
In this matter if he acts to raise the tax this term he is a true national leader.

Just an update.

According to Stephen Koukoulas:

The government borrowed another $800 million today - Tenure, 3 years Yield 2.76%

(the Abbott govt has borrowed over $3 billion since election)

chrisgaff1000,

Take it from you there will be a GST rise? When Labor returns to power in a decade or two maybe.

Parrot,

Yup the interest on the Labor debt keeps racking up. It is Labor's present to our grandchildren.

Hi folks, did anybody catch Today Tonight last night 24/9/13. Single mother would get $1738.42 a fortnight if she stopped working. It seems she has 2 kids at home.
http://au.news.yahoo.com/today-tonight/lifestyle/article/-/19089188/work-versus-welfare/
No wonder the clubs are full of poker machine players and the kids are roaming the streets.
Top cop in Cairns said today 24/9/13 in the Cairns Post 85% if crime is committed by indigenous people. He calls for child benefits to be cut to parents that don't send their kids to school.
What happened to the truancy laws?
I reme4mber being arrested at age 9, put before the children's court, sentenced to 9 years incarceration as a ward of the state and see my family disintegrate, my mother die of depression and my father become a chronic drunk because they wouldn't tell them were we kids were being held.
Now apparently truancy is not an offense.

Chris,

Forgive me if I've got the wrong end of the sick.

But you say:

"I reme4mber being arrested at age 9, put before the children's court, sentenced to 9 years incarceration as a ward of the state and see my family disintegrate, my mother die of depression and my father become a chronic drunk because they wouldn't tell them were we kids were being held."

That happened to you?

And yet you appear to be lamenting that it's not instituted these days.

Odd?

Poirot,
I got an education, whether I liked it or not, got my Matriculation, joined the military, became a 'gentleman' went off to numerous skirmishes, confrontations and wars (including an aborted assassination attempt on Sukarno) came home with a baked brain after Vietnam. Lasted three weeks on the streets of Sydney with no uniform, no discipline, no gun and nobody to tell me what to do.
A girl picked me up out of the gutter, cleaned me up and pointed me in the direction of the law. I joined up and with my military background found myself at home. I married the girl and spent the next 30 years as a hard nosed detective in the Sydney squads.
Many of my peers ended up in the prisons of Australia or dead at the hands of police. I might well have been one of them.
Institution for the right reasons under the right conditions has its place. I include National Service in the list of institutions.

Rather than hitting the ground running as promised, the new Abbott government has stumbled out of the blocks on a number of issues. Much of the early incompetence might possible be put done to inexperience, naivety and a distorted sense of political ideology or in the case of Bishop and Pyne all three.
On the question of a hike in GST, such would make the carbon tax look like small beer. I envisage that in 3 years time the Abbott government, assuming Abbott is still at the helm, given the mans incompetence that is highly unlikely. Going to an election as the most unpopular government the world has ever seen, and that includes the Papa Doc government of Haiti, it would be absolute political suicide for Abbott to go to the voters promising a massive hike in the GST. Then again like Papa Doc, Tony may resort to personally counting the votes back at Lodge.
Just an observation, has anyone else noticed the extraordinary similarity in apperence between Tony and Papa Doc, they could be taken for identical twins, agree,.. no.

Paul,

Talk of incompetence, Christine Milne's staff are abandoning ship due to her incompetence as reflected in the drop in votes by 30$.

As for TA, what do expect? complete set of new legislation in 10 days?

It took Labor 6 years to do all this damage, fixing it is not going to happen overnight.

Where's Tony?

....the Abbott govt has borrowed over $3 billion since election

So what did they borrow it for Poirot, pay labor interest perhaps!

Paul, nice rant mate, about six years too late I would suggest, as you have pretty much summed up the labor government.

Nice work!

Poirot that is a state secrete.

According to Stephen Koukoulas...

The govt will borrow a further $2.3 billion next week.

Since 9 September, the government has borrowed $7.1 billion.

Answer the question Poirot, what are they borrowing the money for?

It's a very simple question Poirot.