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The Forum > General Discussion > The moderate muslim

The moderate muslim

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Gert Wilders said:

"There is only one Islam and that is the Islam from the Koran, the holy book. That is the Islam from Mohammed. There are no two sorts of Islam.

However, there are moderate and non-moderate Muslims, I acknowledge that. As a matter of fact the majority of the Muslims living in our society are moderate people. But don’t make the mistake that even though there are moderate and radical Muslims that there is a moderate or a radical Islam."

Is Wilders right; can you be moderate in an immoderate religion
Posted by cohenite, Monday, 12 August 2013 7:38:26 PM
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We never stop talking about this subject.
Our longest thread in the sites history came after the Sydney riot.
And yes not all Muslims are radical.
Show me please how to tell the difference.
Show me a good reason for that riot.
And the actions and signs seen there.
Tell me again of the shameful Aussies.
Who bought about the Conulla riot.
But too hide duck and weave around the years of insults and verbal threats to users of that beach, from the nice Muslim men, who both claimed the beach was theirs and bought about the whole thing.
Do not talk of the RSL flag being stolen or innocents bashed and stabbed that night.
Do not look at the Sydney school home page that both burns our flag and tells us we are skippys.
It is easier to call us bigots and sideline us that to confront the truth.
You can not mix water and oil.
If we must then name Australians include the millions who had parents from the country,s our wishes do not matter and remind us the others constant wish to not live with us but impose another culture?
Just remind me who are the bigots.
Posted by Belly, Tuesday, 13 August 2013 7:19:24 AM
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In a recent article on Islam and whether violence committed by Muslims was properly recognised by the West as the acts of genuine Muslims Jed Lea-Henry says:

Of course, the majority of Muslims are peaceful individuals.

This is true; not all Muslims living within the West or in Islamic nations are active Jihadists either participating in wars or committing acts of violence. But this inaction does not mean the majority of Muslims are ‘moderate’.

What is a ‘moderate’ Muslim? To answer that question one first has to look at how Muslims regard their faith. In 2008 professor Riaz Hassan published his research on being a Muslim in his book, Inside Muslim Minds. Riaz interviewed 6400 Muslims from 7 Muslim countries and found that nearly all of them agreed strongly with the proposition that Muslim societies must be based on the Koran and sharia law.

Sharia law means there is no separation between church and state. Sharia law means the Koran is the ultimate source of legal authority not the secular parliaments of the Western nations where growing populations of Muslims are living.

What does the Koran offer and do Muslims support the laws prescribed by the Koran? There has been considerable research on this topic. In 2011 the British research company, Ipsos MORI interviewed Muslims in a number of countries and compared their response with the answers from members of other religions. They found Muslims were much more likely to think their faith important and to not want their faith separated from the legal and political system

The results found by Ipsos MORI were confirmed by Pew Research. Pew also found that large majorities of Muslims endorsed the harsh edicts of the Koran such as stoning for adultery, death for apostasy and amputations. Turkey and Lebanon and to a lesser extent Indonesia were the only Muslim nations which had a majority of citizens against these laws.

The plain conclusion from these enquiries is that Muslims endorse their faith, their faith includes harsh laws and that they think their faith should dominate secular legal and political systems.
Posted by cohenite, Tuesday, 13 August 2013 9:30:34 AM
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To quote Abu Imam in Belgium, (well,sort off) "There ain't no such animal as a Moderate Muslim & never will be."

Belly: And yes not all Muslims are radical.
cohenite: Of course, the majority of Muslims are peaceful individuals.

Unfortunately it's whenever there are, "three or more together, gathered in his name" they become a mob. That when they become radical.

No Muslim will EVER accept Secular Laws over Sharia Law, EVER.
Posted by Jayb, Tuesday, 13 August 2013 10:02:12 AM
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show me one moderate muslim, and i will show you how he will change overnight when others defame or profane on issues relating to Allah or Mohammed

i have seen this personally and far too many times

i am wary of them, like Japan

do you folks know for a fact that Japan is the only nation that has a non-muslim migration policy?
Posted by platypus1900, Tuesday, 13 August 2013 10:15:31 AM
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cohenite, surely all the religions think the same way? Our system is derived from Canon Law, for example. The Indian model incorporates some of that, as well as some Hindu tenets. Pakistan does the same, but with Islamic principles instead of Hindu.

Sharia derives from the same basic religious Canon, it just emphasises different things through the local lens that was applied by Mohammed. Some of the later divisions (Sunni/Shia/Wahabi/Alawite) are essentially doctrinal schisms based on earlier power dynamics not unlike those within the Christian Church (Orthodox/Catholic/Protestant - Lutheran/Calvinist/Methodist/Anglican, etc).

Are Muslims, on the whole, as happy, happier, or less happy than Christians? Surely that has to be the real test of a cultural model?

One possible measure is crime rates. How do they compare in countries that have a Judaeo-Christian system of laws compared to an Islamic one that are otherwise economically comparable?

Another one might be suicide or depression rates. Another might be family breakdown. Another might be the way that society deals with the very poorest members, not just materially, but in the way they are perceived by the rest.

Any thoughts?

Jayb, you don't sound too moderate yourself, with all due respect.
Posted by Antiseptic, Tuesday, 13 August 2013 10:29:23 AM
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If you base the question on taking (literally) passages from the Koran, you must apply the same logic to the Christian Bible or any other religious text.

There are many different types of Christians, Buddhists etc - why is it not obvious in the case of Muslims.

Those Christian groups, seemingly predominant in the USA, who hold extremist views and picket soldier's funerals and call for death of homosexuals are not moderate.

Extremism is the concern and potentially it can be fostered in any belief system or set of values. Violent activity that stems from extreme religious fervour is often fuelled by other factors such as a perception/reality of injustice or persecution.

There are many moderate Muslims living all around the world.
Posted by pelican, Tuesday, 13 August 2013 10:31:18 AM
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@pelican

You lived in a country where muslims form >15% of the population?

Welcome to the real world of Islam.
Posted by platypus1900, Tuesday, 13 August 2013 10:41:11 AM
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@antiseptic

with due respects, Jayb is entitled to his views

dont be like the gays
they want to change the norms to our lifestyle BUT we cannot push back

they can say what they want
do what they want

but when the silent majority pushes back
they cry foul.... discrimination....homophobic...

i dont like such double standards
Posted by platypus1900, Tuesday, 13 August 2013 10:46:51 AM
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platypus
Many discontented Muslims have fled countries to experience freedom elsewhere. That is why they leave so they can practice their religion without dogmatic and extreme interpretation of the Koran.

They are in effect moderate Muslims which was the question asked of the creator of this topic.
Posted by pelican, Tuesday, 13 August 2013 10:47:17 AM
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"cohenite, surely all the religions think the same way?"

Of course. But the point from the studies done on Islam compared with other religions is that Muslims are far more devout and opposed to secular law; and incidentally the only religion using violence in a systemic way as a form of proselytizing.

This inability or unwillingness to separate church and state which defines Islam more than any other religion places ‘peaceful’ Muslims in an invidious position. On the one hand they believe their faith is right and that secular Western society is inferior. A recent CNN report based on the Ipsos MORI research found that Muslims thought Western society was in moral decline. Given the choice between violent acts of the minority within Islam and the condemnation and resistance from the West to that violence Muslims who believe in their faith, and that is the vast majority, will give tacit approval to the aims if not methods of the violent minority. To do otherwise would contradict their faith and their conclusions about the West being immoral. It would also mean that resistance to the inferior moral values of the West and replacement of those values with sharia is bad.

In this respect Lea-Henry is correct when he notes the schizophrenic reaction of Western leaders who distinguish between violent Muslims who declaim they are doing what they do for Islam and ‘moderate’ Muslims on the basis the violent Muslims are not really Muslims.

The violent Muslims are real Muslims; just as the non-violent, ostensible ‘moderate’ Muslims are real Muslims. Where Lea-Henry falls into the same diagnostic error that the politicians do is to assume the non-violent Muslims are ‘moderate’. That somehow they don’t want the same things as the violent Muslims. The evidence says otherwise. Both the violent and the ‘moderate’ Muslims want sharia to replace decadent Western values. The difference is one of method.
Posted by cohenite, Tuesday, 13 August 2013 10:52:57 AM
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Platypus, who said Jayb wasn't entitled to his views? I simply pointed out they're immoderate. What do you find confronting about that?

cohenite, I'm not sure what your point is. There are violent people who profess every religious tradition, from Buddhism to Christianity and everything in between, as well as violent atheists. Some people are violent. some people are anti-social in all sorts of ways. some people believe in weird and wonderful things. Some people are really thoughtful of the needs of others. Some people are devoted to doing their best to make society a better place. Some people like to think about abstract notions of good and bad.

They're still all people, whatever culture they belong to.

This thread is an attempt to particularise Islam as violent, when the Hebrew Torah is every bit as violent if not more so. The wrathful God of Revelations is pretty violent 'n'all.

Did you have a think about my question with respect to which religio-cultural tradition produces the happiest populations? Any ideas?
Posted by Antiseptic, Tuesday, 13 August 2013 12:16:30 PM
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It is a shame we didn’t draw a line as Japan has. Islam will always remain incompatible with western values. It is as much political system as a religion and in any crisis or showdown Muslim allegiance will always be to their God or fellow Muslims and not to any national or political boundary.
If Islam is such a great system why do so many want to get out of those places that follow Islamic laws and custom
Posted by SILLER, Tuesday, 13 August 2013 12:44:41 PM
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"There are violent people who profess every religious tradition, from Buddhism to Christianity and everything in between, as well as violent atheists."

Correct but you miss the point which is within Islam there is a systemic desire to replace secular structures with sharia. The only distinction between the violent Muslims and the peaceful ones is method. This is different from other religions as the surveys above show.

Because the difference is one of method not principle all Muslims must carry responsibility for violence done in the name of Islam. Lea-Henry uses the example of Chomsky to show that all US citizens are responsible for the actions of the US government. This is exactly the wrong example. The US is a democracy where people have a say in the government and its policies; and most importantly where they can and do protest against those policies. There is no such choice in Islam. A better example is the Catholic Church where every member of the church must carry some of the responsibility for the criminal actions and obfuscation of the Catholic clergy.

Lea-Henry says that change must be from within Islam; that renunciation of violence by Islam must be organic and that forced change would be imperialistic. That is nonsense for several reasons.

Firstly there is no sign anywhere from within Islam that Islam’s imperialistic drive towards sharia is abating. In fact that drive to implement sharia is increasing. Many European countries now have no-go areas within their borders where Islam has effectively supplanted secular law. This tendency is already happening within Australia as 60 Minutes’ fact-finding tour in Western Sydney recently revealed. Australia’s proportion of Muslims is 2.2%. This is less than half the proportion in the European countries currently experiencing Islamic violence and aggressive implementation of sharia. Given that of the 18 convictions for terrorism in Australia post 9/11 17 were Muslims there is no reason to suppose the Muslims in Australia are any different from those in Europe and that Australia too will experience an intensification of Muslim demand for sharia as the number of Muslims in Australia increases.
Posted by cohenite, Tuesday, 13 August 2013 1:39:25 PM
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cohenite, that's all irrelevant if you don't answer the simple questions I put in my first post. In all the discussions on this topic, including in the one directly attached to Lea-Henry's article, nobody has tried to answer them, preferring to simply reiterate a bigoted anti-Islamic POV that assumes secularity is inherently better without addressing why. I've been accused of all sorts of calumnies for simply asking that question.

Are people in Islamic countries, on the whole, happier or less happy than those in secular ones with comparable economic conditions? Is social justice better or worse? Are the poor more excluded from social participation or less?

If you can't answer those questions in the negative, then I'm afraid your constant diatribes about Islam are simple bigotry.

Care to have a go, or are you just going to give us another polemic?
Posted by Antiseptic, Tuesday, 13 August 2013 2:21:22 PM
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@antiseptic

ok point taken as long as he is entitled to make his view

tell me
have you lived in a society/country where muslims >15% of the population?
have you worked overseas in such environment?
if not, can i say you are a fine academic?

there was a study made some time back, i need to dig it up.
on how muslims as a group changes their behaviour as their numbers increases
and finally how they take over the society
do you know this is taught in the koran?
to take over the infidel neighbours if they do not submit to the ways of allah and the teachings of the prophet?

muslims are a perculiar lot
they are very law abiding (not their shariah law) in the place they stay if they are few of them
as their numbers grow, you start to see their true side

a. they demand for rights to pray 5 times a day... at work at public places etc
if you do to give them their prayer rooms...you are a bigot
you are persecuting them

b. they start to demand for their halal laws at public eating places

c. they start to pray in public streets even though it is against the law (see...when they are small in numbers...they are obedient)
go see some scary youtubes on the situation in london and paris
you see what happened in sydney?

d. they start to insist that their women folks cover their faces
i think this is a security problem and i hate going to public places with all the women(not sure if men or women) hood up their face

my point is simple
there should be religious freedom
BUT practise that in your home
in the religious building that are approved under the law of the land

moderate muslims... i am afraid islam is a theocracy as it is more than a faith
it is a political ideology aimed at world dominance.
Posted by platypus1900, Tuesday, 13 August 2013 3:00:20 PM
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Belly,
You said, "And yes not all Muslims are radical.
Show me please how to tell the difference".

The answer to that is easy.

The moderate muslim does not have access to explosives-- YET.
Posted by Banjo, Tuesday, 13 August 2013 3:19:11 PM
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platypus 1900,

It's interesting that you should critique prayer and halal preferences.

Aren't you the guy who, regarding your children in another thread, proudly proclaims:

"All of them were caned when they were young.
I discipline them when they are from 2-12 years old
After that, the canes are thrown away.
They are then old enough to reason with."

Yeah, great stuff.
Posted by Poirot, Tuesday, 13 August 2013 3:32:41 PM
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@poirot

what is wrong with my comments?
i have nothing against halal preferences or prayers
that is what they choose and i am ok with that

my point is do not impose your lifestyle on others
have your prayers at home and not blare it over the neighbourhood
pray at home and in the religious buildings not on the streets

eat what you want or dont eat what you want
just do not demand i must set aside 2 tables in my restaurant to cater to non pork eaters

you got a problem with that?
Posted by platypus1900, Tuesday, 13 August 2013 4:06:39 PM
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The real point of discussion should be that the Koran cannot be reinterperated.
IT CANNOT BE REVIEWED.

The Bible was reinterperated and "updated" in the new testament.
"let he who is without sin cast the first stone" !

Can a tolerant society tolerate intolerance ?
Why is it that in "western" countries, gangs of moslem youths and men
only ever gangrape non moslem women ?
Because the Koran considers them to be prostitutes.

It is the rigidity of the Koran that is the source of the problems everywhere the moslems arrive.
Is there even ONE country that is not having problems with moslem
immigrants ?

Yes, OK Japan.
Posted by Bazz, Tuesday, 13 August 2013 4:32:31 PM
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Platypus, still just polemic, no answer to my simple questions.

Dear me, some might suggest you're simply not up to the task of thinking for yourself. Not me, of course, I'm sure you are and that you know you don't like the answers so you're trying to ignore the questions.

How sad.
Posted by Antiseptic, Tuesday, 13 August 2013 4:33:37 PM
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Banjo, there are several versions of the Quran and then there are the mystic and revelatory texts of the Sufis and others.

I'm afraid you're speaking through your trousers.
Posted by Antiseptic, Tuesday, 13 August 2013 4:35:27 PM
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Banjo: Show me please how to tell the difference".

Easy, 0ne individual Muslim, Moderate.
Three Muslims together, Radical.

Poirot: Aren't you the guy who, regarding your children in another thread, proudly proclaims:

Deflection. Nothing to do with the discussion. At it again poirot, that was quick.

Platapus1900: I am afraid Islam is a theocracy as it is more than a faith it is a political ideology aimed at world dominance.

Right on the money. Is he or is he not correct poirot?

Antiseptic: Are people in Islamic countries, on the whole, happier or less happy than those in secular ones with comparable economic conditions?

I will answer in the negative here. Primarily because these people flee to the West for a better Economic outcome for themselves. There is a big discrepancy between the haves & the have nots in the Middle East.

Anti: Is social justice better or worse? I will answer in the negative here. Their Laws & the excecution of those Laws are Medievil in practise.

Anti: Are the poor more excluded from social participation or less?

I will answer in the negative here because of the great discrepancy in wealth. This would tend to create a lack of opportunity for someone who is poor or female. Lack of academic education (other than the Koran) for the poor & females would also lead to a lack of Social participation.

There you have it.

Anti: Platypus, who said Jayb wasn't entitled to his views? I simply pointed out they're immoderate.

Possibly, slightly immoderate but nowhere near radical. I'm not threatening to blow anyone up because they don't like my views.

I would like to discuss my views with various people but some of them do anything rather than have a REAL discussion of the pros & cons of the Secular verses the Therocratic.

Cohanite: Australia too will experience an intensification of Muslim demand for sharia as the number of Muslims in Australia increases.

I'm afraid you are on the money here.
Posted by Jayb, Tuesday, 13 August 2013 4:41:05 PM
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Antiseptic you say:

"nobody has tried to answer them, preferring to simply reiterate a bigoted anti-Islamic POV that assumes secularity is inherently better without addressing why."

You reveal your prejudices there; but let me answer that question of why a secular society is best. A secular society is best because it prescribes NO ONE RELIGION; as a result all religious beliefs are permissible.

At this stage we have Islam trying to usurp that framework and prescribe its beliefs.

I don't know why that is so hard to understand.

Getting back to my examples of why Lea-Henry is wrong in assuming change must be organic, from within Islam.

Secondly the only example of a nation with a majority Muslim population which did not operate under sharia has been Turkey. Ataturk established a vigorous secular republic where that separation of religion and state was enforced by a strong, independent military. In other words Islam was held at bay by the imperialistic methodology of an independent armed force. In recent times we have seen the bulwark of the military eroded by the Islamist president Erdogan who seeks to once again conflate religion and state under sharia.

Thirdly when prominent Muslims like Ayaan Hirsi Ali and Salman Rushdie criticise their religion they are immediately threatened with death. If formidable people like Rushdie and Ali are persecuted how can the average Muslim stand up and exercise a ‘moderate’ voice from within Islam?

Fourthly, Islam is not a ‘moderate’ or even a peaceful religion. The Koran is full of invocations for Muslims to kill non-believers. The Koran says The unbelievers are your inveterate enemies [4:95-101]. Arguments which point to similar texts in the Old Testament and which make historical comparisons are simply irrelevant. Other religions do not want to introduce their equivalent of sharia law or have violence committed on their behalf.

I'll conclude in a final post.
Posted by cohenite, Tuesday, 13 August 2013 4:54:57 PM
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Given the reasons in my posts above it is hard to see organic change coming from within Islam. The immensity of the change required is defined by Robert Spencer’s definition of a ‘moderate Muslim:

"Is it [a moderate Muslim] one who will never engage in terrorist acts? That would make moderates an overwhelming majority of Muslims worldwide. Or is a moderate one who sincerely disapproves of those terrorist acts? That would reduce the number of moderates. Or is a moderate Muslim one who actively speaks out and works against the jihadists? That would lower the number yet again. Or finally, is a moderate Muslim one who actively engages the jihadists in a theological battle, trying to convince Muslims that jihad terrorism is wrong on Islamic grounds? That would leave us a tiny handful."

A tiny handful. One is reminded of Yeats:

"The best lack all conviction, while the worst
are full of passionate intensity."

Unfortunately that appears to sum up Islam.

I think people are confused and defend Islam for a variety of spurious reasons which all have their origin in the secular structure which gives people the right to defend such things as Islam.

The irony is by defending Islam such people are helping to destroy that secular structure.
Posted by cohenite, Tuesday, 13 August 2013 5:26:16 PM
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Still dodging, cohenite.

They were simple questions, no prejudice implied. I have to say that your own user name does tend to imply a prejudicial viewpoint, however.

Are secularists happier than Muslims, on the whole? What about Jews, happier or less so than Muslims? Christians - happier or less so? Are the poor in Muslim countries more able to participate or less able to compared to those in countries which follow any of those other religious/ideological dogmas?

I'll give it one last go before I leave you to your polemic. Care to have a shot at those simple questions or are you simply going to continue to rant and rave?
Posted by Antiseptic, Tuesday, 13 August 2013 5:28:17 PM
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cohanite: The Koran is full of invocations for Muslims to kill non-believers. The Koran says The unbelievers are your inveterate enemies [4:95-101].

You are right here. As I was told once by an Imam, "No Allah, Animal!, can kill, no problem."

cohanite: Arguments which point to similar texts in the Old Testament and which make historical comparisons are simply irrelevant.

There are some text in the old Bible but they have been negated by the coming of enlightenment in the West & the introduction of Secular Laws over some hundreds of years. Besides no-one but the nutcases in America take any notice of them. Something that the Middle Eastern countries have yet to come to grips with.

Unfortunately they never will because of their deep seated commitment to the Koran & other Koranic Texts. The coming of the Mahdi's & the consequences that followed their radical interpretation of the Koran have seen to that.
Posted by Jayb, Tuesday, 13 August 2013 5:31:27 PM
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Jayb, I wasn't talking about wealth distribution, but about social participation, however wealth distribution is also an indicator. Given that in the West around 80% of the wealth is controlled by around 1% of the population and that the effort to maintain the fiction of relative wealth equality has sent several Western secular consumerist states to the wall, I'm not sure that it's a terribly favourable measure for the west. I'm not interested in trying to make Muslim women into Western ones, feminism is a failed dogma that creates more harm than good.

Here in Australia we redistribute more money to middle-class people with jobs (especially women) than we do to poor people without them (especially men). Is that a good or exemplary model? Does it accord with the Bible or the Quran?

We have people (mostly men) killing themselves at the rate of thousands a year. How does that compare with Islamic countries of similar wealth per capita? What about murder rate? Violent crime generally? Robbery and burglary? Interactions with neighbours?

You're focussing on scare-mongering, rather than trying to work out a way to come to a melding of views. I think that's destructive and I like to try to be constructive.
Posted by Antiseptic, Tuesday, 13 August 2013 5:45:00 PM
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Antiseptic are you blind; I answered your 'question' when I said a secular society allows ALL religions to be free; if, as you appear to be suggesting, Muslims are only happy when everyone else has no choice but to be Muslim who cares if they are happy or not.

How about you answer these questions: would you be happy under sharia? Do you think everyone having to live under sharia is what the great mass of Muslims, both peaceful and violent, want?

Answer those questions and we'll proceed from there.
Posted by cohenite, Tuesday, 13 August 2013 5:55:23 PM
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"who cares if they are happy or not"

Too funny. Sums you up in a nutshell.
Posted by Antiseptic, Tuesday, 13 August 2013 5:58:59 PM
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Great contribution Antiseptic. You float around these Tinker-bell concepts about relative happiness and merit of the Islam world compared with the secular West and when the grotesque nature of this sort of relativism is pointed out to you, you then try to be clever and sarcastic.

Islam is an oppressive, totalitarian cult, eschatological in its advocacy and destructive in its form. It treats women as chattels and basically tries to make them invisible through the wearing of a sack.

I note the latest modus operandi of the violent sharia seekers which is to butcher school children, particularly girls:

http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/index.php/heraldsun/comments/islamists_murder_children_for_going_to_school/

Now tell me how feeling repelled by that sums me up in a "nutshell"? Maybe you support it? Do you think it is justified? Where do you stand on Islamic violence Antiseptic?
Posted by cohenite, Tuesday, 13 August 2013 6:30:09 PM
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Anti,
The reference to moderate muslims and explosives was intended to lighten things a bit with some humour, but Islamists don't have humour.

the fact is that muslims come to western countries with the intention of dominating, Just as the former president of Algeria said about conquering Europe. Muslims see themselves as pioneers for Islam, who will not compromise in any way to integrate.

Their ideology does not gel with any other society. We need to stop importing muslims if we care for our future generations and a cohesive society.
Posted by Banjo, Tuesday, 13 August 2013 8:34:20 PM
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someone sent this youtube link to me

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-3X5hIFXYU

scary

the fertility rate for australia is 1.8
something needs to be done
but please do not have the wrong kind of migrants !
Posted by platypus1900, Tuesday, 13 August 2013 9:41:35 PM
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Thank you Platypus; the people who defend Islam have no idea; unless of course they are Muslims. Or "useful idiots", the default position of the left.

This population explosion of Islam is why Islam does not need many violent acolytes.

While this happens the West fiddles and there is not even a meaningful discussion about it; we can't even agree about the terminology of what is a moderate Muslim.
Posted by cohenite, Tuesday, 13 August 2013 10:41:48 PM
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I've just been watching "Insight" on the topic
of same-sex marriage. It was interesting to note
that among the religious leaders in the audience
and as guests - there were quite
a variety of opinions. The leaders ranged from
priests, rabbis, emams and so on. Each had his own
take on the topic.

Therefore I find that the idea that Muslims are just
one lot of 1.6 billion people effectively functioning
exactly the same - as somewhat bizarre.
Posted by Lexi, Tuesday, 13 August 2013 10:53:36 PM
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Even the title of this thread is an oxymoron, with absolutely no foundation in fact.

They kill each other like crazy, just because they follow a different branch of the same religion. Anyone who actually believes they have anything to contribute to Oz or any western country is, as the lady said in the anti drink driving add, "A BLOODY IDIOT".
Posted by Hasbeen, Wednesday, 14 August 2013 12:06:29 AM
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Hasbeen, anyone who believes that only Muslims have ever
killed "...each other like crazy, just because they follow a different branch of the same religion."
(Think- Catholics and Protestants in Northern Ireland and England);

or anyone who actually believes that Muslims haven't already contributed
"...to Oz or any western country is, as the lady said in the anti drink driving add, "A BLOODY IDIOT"."
Posted by Suseonline, Wednesday, 14 August 2013 1:20:38 AM
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Susonline: or anyone who actually believes that Muslims haven't already contributed.

Lakemba riots, gang bangs, car recycling, drugs, general unrest for Australian people. Not much else though. You're right Suze, they have contributed a lot.

SOL: Think- Catholics and Protestants in Northern Ireland and England);

Yes, well the Irish! Still, it's confined to one or two towns in one little corner of the World about half the size of Tasmania. They confine their tiff to themselves. It's not spreading terror all over the World like the Muslims do. Is it?
Posted by Jayb, Wednesday, 14 August 2013 8:04:36 AM
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To get back to basics;
Is there a country that has had significant moslem immigration that has
not had problems with arrogant demands for the host country to comply
with Islamic rules ?

Is there a country that has had significant moslem immigration that has
not had problems with terrorism activity at one level or another ?

For some reason the women on this thread ALL seem to adopt the attitude
that all is loverly with the Islamic trend in this country.
Is it that they secretly long for a men orintated society and would love
to live as moslem women live ?
Posted by Bazz, Wednesday, 14 August 2013 9:05:49 AM
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Susie,
There were heaps of Irish immigrants that came here and they never continued the violence here.

Lexi,
Yep, muslims blow each other up because of small differences in religion. The Kurds cop it from both Sunnis and Shia. Notice the violence in Lakembla between Sunnis and Shia, over the Syrian civil war. We can expect much more of that as the immigration numbers increase. The hatreds are refreshed with the new arrivals.
Posted by Banjo, Wednesday, 14 August 2013 9:39:36 AM
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"Therefore I find that the idea that Muslims are just
one lot of 1.6 billion people effectively functioning
exactly the same - as somewhat bizarre."

It is bizarre that you are unwilling to accept what survey and study after study has found about Islam which is Muslims want sharia law regardless of which sect they belong to.

The apologists for Islam use this lie often which is not all Muslims are the same. It's wrong because all Muslims want sharia.

That is not in dispute.

The psychology of non-Muslims who support Islam is however an area of dispute; do they support Islam because they are anti-West and since Islam is also anti-west it is a case of the enemy of my enemy is my friend.

Maybe the apologists for Islam have such high opinions of themselves and their moral sensibilities that once they have decided Muslims, perhaps as boat-people, need their moral support they are incapable of changing their minds.

Maybe the defenders of Islam are really Muslims pretending not to be.

Regardless one of the most bizarre manifestations of the illogic and ultimately self-destruction the human mind is capable of is so-called progressive women supporting Islam which regards women as no more than baby-factories and chattels.

Now that is truly bizarre.
Posted by cohenite, Wednesday, 14 August 2013 9:46:15 AM
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To say that the women on this discussion are apologists
for Islam is simply wrong. That's like saying that the
men on this discussion are narrow-minded bigots.

I don't think that any one would advocate or approve of
violence no matter what religious fundamentalists
would advocate it.
Be it American conservatives who bomb abortion clinics
and want to murder doctors who perform abortions or whether
it is political fanaticism exemplified in aircraft
hijackings and terrorist bombings.

The point that is being made however is that religious
fundamentalist revivals, in whatever religion usually
take place in times when social changes have led to
turmoil, uncertainty, and the erosion of familiar values.
In other words conditions that exist in the middle east are
specific social and cultural conditions and they influence
the subsequent course of social change within those countries.

As far as Asutralia is concerned we religious laws have
no legal status here and we are all obliged to obey the
laws of this country - no matter what religion we happen to
be.

However, to talk about Islam as if everyone follows the
religion in exactly the same way - and interprets the Koran
in exactly the same way - is simply silly. When we know that
the reality is that very often religious leaders of the same
faith often disagree on so many things within their own teachings.

But if you think you know it all - well how can anyone
argue with someone who knows it all?
Posted by Lexi, Wednesday, 14 August 2013 10:33:46 AM
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Lexi, let's look at your main points:

Your first point is to equate US anti-abortion idiots with Muslims wanting sharia law through violence or peaceful means. There is no equivalence. The anti-abortionists are violent nutters, few in number with no inherent plan to replace the secular structure which allows abortions with a religious state.

Your second point is that militant Islam seeking sharia law is a product of tumultuous times. This is wrong. There is no civil war in Australia, no turmoil so why do Muslims in Australia want sharia. They also want sharia in England, France, Germany and in every Western nation in Europe; where is the turmoil in those nations to justify your claim?

Your point about Australia having no religious laws is exactly the issue; Islam wants to change that; Muslims in Australia are agitating for the introduction of sharia. Do you really believe those demands for sharia will not increase as the numbers of Muslims increase?

Your final point about all Muslims not being the same is irrelevant; as the surveys I have referred to show, all Muslims from all countries want sharia. What evidence do you have to contradict that?
Posted by cohenite, Wednesday, 14 August 2013 11:07:08 AM
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I asked some Muslim friends of mine a little while ago if they want sharia.

They don't.

You lot are such scared little children. Your head must be a terrible place to live in, you poor things.

Jayb, car drivers are really dangerous people to have around. Have you seen the number of people killed by people driving cars!? People who ride motorcycles are much more desirable immigrants, I think you'll agree and people who walk everywhere are approaching sanctity!

We must immediately redraft our immigration policy to stop those people who have a history of using cars from entering. Send 'em all to some outpost of civilisation where they're wanted, like the US or perhaps Korea... We can't be too careful, the next thing they'll be wanting us to make special laws that we all have to follow. Noone will be able to just walk onto a road whenever they feel like it! As a committed motorcyclist I shouldn't have to put up with car drivers unreasonable demands. It's an assault on my freedom of transport!
Posted by Antiseptic, Wednesday, 14 August 2013 11:41:41 AM
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Anti,

"You lot are such scared little children. Your head must be a terrible place to live in, you poor things."

But is it our right to deny them their weekly Muslim hysteria thread and consequent outpourings?

I ask you....?

: )
Posted by Poirot, Wednesday, 14 August 2013 11:56:18 AM
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No one has suggested a country with moslem immigration that has not
had problems.

I would suggest that there are none, except Japan that I gather does not allow them in.
Do n ot bother to say that all countries with immigrants have problems.
Yes of course they do but this is a matter of scale and wanting to
fundermentaly change the host to their laws & religion.
Posted by Bazz, Wednesday, 14 August 2013 12:01:20 PM
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"...as the surveys I have referred to show, all Muslims from all countries want sharia. What evidence do you have to contradict that?"

Yours, I would have thought, cohenite...

"Turkey and Lebanon and to a lesser extent Indonesia were the only Muslim nations which had a majority of citizens against these laws."
Posted by WmTrevor, Wednesday, 14 August 2013 12:16:42 PM
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@Lexi

you are all over the place
same sex marriage?
this is not the correct thread
but since you are at it

1. you want to discuss morals?
2. you need to believe in an Almighty God
3. then you need to see what God's commandments are

show me a faith that believes in a God and that it approves gay marriage and homosexual practice.

one favourite excuse gays like to put forward..if God created me gay, why should i be punished?
NO...God created us perfect but man choose to rebel against God
we are a fallen race now
we all have sinful tendencies like lust...lying..covetousness..pride etc
that does not mean we should celebrate sin

back to "moderate muslim"
i said before, i worked and lived amongst them for a long long time
and i know them well
what about you?
and i tell you i am scared like hel
Posted by platypus1900, Wednesday, 14 August 2013 12:44:23 PM
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WMT: "Turkey and Lebanon and to a lesser extent Indonesia were the only Muslim nations which had a majority of citizens against these laws."

Turkey now has an Islamic friendly Government that is trying to install Sharia Law by stealth. One Law at a time. That's why the people are revolting at the moment.

No Lebanon doesn't have Sharia Law enshrined, but does the Government control the people. No. All the Muslim Sects control the Laws within their own areas & the Government can't control them or even want to in case they get accidentally blown up or shot, which seems to happen with regularity.

Indonesia? Take Ache. Ache has Sharia Law & it’s strictly enforced. New rules just last week forbidding women to work in an office where men work. There are a couple of other provinces where Sharia is strictly enforced as well but Ache is the worst. Oh & a decree lately. Women are not to cut up carrots, zucchinis, cucumbers or eat bananas because they look like penises & that might give them bad ideas.

Cohenite: The anti-abortionists are violent nutters, few in number with no inherent plan to replace the secular structure.

Unlike Muslims of any description who do. Even your friend Anti. Ask them in front of their local Imam some time, and then see what sort of answer you get. Different, I bet. Then he won’t be your friend any more for embarrassing him.

Anti: People who ride motorcycles are much more desirable immigrants,

Yes I just had one this morning. Wrong side of the road, doing about 130kph, weaving all over the place. We get them all the time out this way. Always going somewhere to die. The going rate is about one a month, dead. Unfortunately they take other people with them.
Posted by Jayb, Wednesday, 14 August 2013 1:08:38 PM
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Lexi: To say that the women on this discussion are apologists for Islam is simply wrong. That's like saying that the men on this discussion are narrow-minded bigots.

Most of the women in these discussions are all for defending Muslims. I would say Cohenite is just about spot on. As for being Narrow Minded Bigots. According to poirot, us men are, & if she says so then that must be right.
Posted by Jayb, Wednesday, 14 August 2013 1:09:19 PM
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see this

http://downloads.cbn.com/cbnnewsplayer/cbnplayer.swf?aid=17933

the trojan horse is in paris
too late

for those who are not afraid
for those who are open minded
for those who think we are afraid

may this not happen to our cities
Posted by platypus1900, Wednesday, 14 August 2013 3:43:05 PM
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So whats new Platapus ?
They do that in Lakemba in Sydney now !
Every FRiday they block off the street the Mosque is in.
It is not legal, but so what, they tell the police that they cannot
interfere with their praying.
Posted by Bazz, Wednesday, 14 August 2013 4:05:51 PM
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Dear Platypus,

I do not want to discuss same -sex marriange.
The only reasons that I brought it up was the
fact that I was watching the program on television
and in the audience there were religious leaders
from various faiths who could not agree amongst
themselves on this subject. They all had different
points of view on the topic. There were for example four
rabbis - who interpreted the teachings of their Holy Book
differently. Each of them having a different perspective.
And that was the point that I was trying to make.
Each religious Holy Book - is interpreted differently
by different teachers. Therefore your claim of trying to
convince us that all Muslims practice their faith in
exactly the same way is as I stated earlier - just plain
silly.

And sweeping generalisations add no credibility to the
argument. Give us some evidence to support your outlandish
claims. Just who exactly wants to convert this country of
ours to the Islam faith. And, where does the Islamic
Council stand on Shariah law? Do you even know what
Shariah Law is - and what it means? It's all very well
to blab on - but do you really know what you're talking
about? BTW - this is Australia, not the middle-east -
the conditions here are totally different.
Posted by Lexi, Wednesday, 14 August 2013 4:09:14 PM
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@Lexi

tell me what is your response to the post before yours?

illegal praying on the streets of Sydney
australia is different from paris?
different from london?

once their numbers increases, my dear Lexi, dont come crying about generalisations

one more time...have you lived in a country where muslims are >15% of the population
if not, you are just a writer, quite an elegant writer.
on the other hand, i have been to all these places and worked and lived in most of them (care to share if you have been out of cushy oz?)

scared?
sure like hell i am scared
Posted by platypus1900, Wednesday, 14 August 2013 4:18:57 PM
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@Bazz

i didnt know as i do not live in sydney
tell me why i am not surprised?
typical of this faith

they are very very touchy
i know of no faith that demands their believers to protect the good name of their prophet and their god
as if the prophet and their god needs protecting

buddhists do not kill you for insulting buddha
jews do not blow you up for insulting moses or yahweh
christians do not issue fatwahs when jesus christ superstar was screened
the hindus do not mob you when you say ganesh looks weird with an elephant nose

and we have the likes of some members here wondering why make a mountain out of an anthill
Posted by platypus1900, Wednesday, 14 August 2013 4:27:46 PM
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"and we have the likes of some members here wondering why make a mountain out of an anthill"

Molehills aside, that sums it up fairly well.

: )
Posted by Poirot, Wednesday, 14 August 2013 4:31:11 PM
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W Trevor says that the fact that 3 Islamic countries do not support specific and particular harsh aspects of sharia means those nations do not support sharia. Read the survey again W Trevor. In all Islamic nations the vast majority of Muslims support sharia. The fact that a few prefer sharia lite to the full thing is neither here nor there.

lexi says "BTW - this is Australia, not the middle-east -
the conditions here are totally different."

So Australian Muslims are different from the Muslims in every other Western nation pressing for sharia? Listen to what "our" Muslims say about the public beheading of the English soldier and sharia in the West to Hayes in her wander down Lakemba:

http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/index.php/heraldsun/comments/sydney_muslims_tell_60_minutes_the_near_beheaded_lee_rigby_was_a_dog/

There are many examples in Australia of Muslims wanting sharia such as Hizb ut-Tahrir:

http://blogs.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/timblair/index.php/dailytelegraph/comments/waah_waah/

We see how sharia is being introduced into schools:

http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/index.php/heraldsun/comments/teaching_children_that_fear_of_terrorism_is_racist/

And this one will especially please you Lexi, along with the other womenistas on this thread; at a Muslim school in SA non-Muslim female teachers have been sacked because they wouldn't wear the hijab:

http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/south-australia/islamic-college-of-south-australia-head-dress-code-dispute-escalates/story-fni6uo1m-1226693159790

Anyone who says Islam is not spreading sharia in Australia is delusional.
Posted by cohenite, Wednesday, 14 August 2013 4:31:56 PM
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Dear Platypus,

We've lived and worked in the United States for
ten years, travelled all over Mexico, Canada,
and the US. I have friends and colleagues who
are Muslims. And I have attended lectures given
by Prof. A. Saeed. I have read the works of
Antony Loewenstein, Prof. A. Saeed, Ayaan Hirsi Ali,
Malika Oufkir and Michele Fitoussi, to name just a
few.

A fascinating read was the book, "Russia's Islamic
Threat," by Gordon M Hahn. Dr Hahn is one of the leading
experts in the world not only on the so called Islamist
threat as such, but on the entire field of Russia's
Muslim-majority regions, their internal politics and
relations between them and the federal centre in Moscow.
His book is superbly researched and full of insights and
intelligent analysis.
Posted by Lexi, Wednesday, 14 August 2013 4:34:40 PM
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Lexi: And sweeping generalisations add no credibility to the argument. Give us some evidence to support your outlandish claims. Just who exactly wants to convert this country of ours to the Islam faith. And, where does the Islamic Council stand on Shariah law?

Well have a look at these Lexi.

http://www.smh.com.au/national/muslims-obligated-to-resist-democracy-say-radicals-20110703-1gxfw.html

http://www.hizb-australia.org/multimedia/videos/item/428-khilafah-conference-2012-videos

http://www.hizb-australia.org/events/item/372-khilafah-conference-2012

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GAFbH5Zkrxo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ZUZiz1wVvE

Why we give AID to Islamic countries.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGRTDt5w-dM

You never look at these Lexi because I sent similar before & you have refused.

Lexi: this is Australia, not the middle-east the conditions here are totally different.

WTF. You’re spending too much time down the bottom of the garden with the fairies, dear. Either that or get up wind from where they’re burning off the funny weed.

Lexi: And I have attended lectures given by Prof. A. Saeed. I have read the works of Antony Loewenstein, Prof. A. Saeed, Ayaan Hirsi Ali,
Malika Oufkir and Michele Fitoussi, to name just a few. A fascinating read was the book, "Russia's Islamic Threat," by Gordon M Hahn.

For someone who doesn't support Islam (you have stated that previously you spend a lot of time with Muslims & reading their literature. Strange that.
Posted by Jayb, Wednesday, 14 August 2013 5:44:24 PM
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@Lexi

i re-read your posts

i think i know where you are coming from i.e. not all muslims are militant extremists
that i can agree

BUT my interactions with them for 50 years tell me this

a. when push comes to shove, they are all muslim brothers
b. when given a choice, they want all infidels to submit to their shariah law ( they will say it applies to them only...dont you believe them)
c. you want to marry in..fine...go get circumcised
d. you want to leave them....HELL NO...that is apostasy and any respectable muslim father will rather kill his own son then to let him defect
e. dying for islam (allah and mohd) is a good thing
f. lying for islam is not bad...it is a temporary evil...so, you never know if your neighbour is lying or not

you watched all the youtubes and videos i posted?
they are real and should not to be taken lightly

i was asking a Secretary of State of a ME country where i had biz there on why they insist their women must cover their face
his answer is alarming

"do you want another man to have the image of your wife in his head when he masturbates"

wow..that is mindblowing... and he is just next in line to the Minister in seniority

anyway, i am very wary of them...very!
Posted by platypus1900, Wednesday, 14 August 2013 6:40:30 PM
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platy: lying for Islam is not bad.

It is considered praise worthy thing to do to infidels. Sanctioned by Allah himself. It even a special name "Taqiyya," or Lying for Islam. A great religion, eh.

It's something that many of the apologists here are extremely good at, apart for deflecting, etc.
Posted by Jayb, Wednesday, 14 August 2013 7:47:11 PM
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@jayb

my personal creed is "all lies are bad"

white or black
intentional or unintentional
good intentions or bad intentions

ALL lies are bad.... period

the Father of all lies is the devil himself
i dont want to be his children

as i said..this is one faith i am most wary of
Posted by platypus1900, Wednesday, 14 August 2013 8:04:41 PM
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Lexi my belle, there is a basic motivator to everything in “nature” called critical mass.

As example we all have bacteria living quite happy in us for all of our lives, and we only suffer a negative effect when they hit critical mass.

Lexi just on the bacteria scenario have a look at Bonnie Bassler on TED. I love the chick. What her team has discovered will change the way we medicate for all bacterial infections.
http://www.ted.com/talks/bonnie_bassler_on_how_bacteria_communicate.html

The same is true for muslims. They are dormant until they hit critical mass, then they want Sharia and the customs from the 7th century as the social hallmark of the society that have hijacked. But you do not want to acknowledge that so I am just backing up the realists on this thread.

Regarding the painting of all muslims with one brush. If there was a moderate Islam, it is modern Turkey. The Arabs are zealots and the sub continent muslims are stone age. Muslims, whether they are computer programmers or academics, regardless of modernity they will revert if they hit critical mass.
Posted by sonofgloin, Wednesday, 14 August 2013 8:17:54 PM
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PS Lexi,
Here is something you will understand about critical mass and how easily the good neighbour can become part of a larger beast….Very few Germans resisted the Nazi…..
Posted by sonofgloin, Wednesday, 14 August 2013 8:20:58 PM
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perhaps this article will convince those who still hold the view that all is well
the contents appeared in an email which i misplaced

http://heavenawaits.wordpress.com/muslim-behavior-with-population-increase/

i attest to what is in the article

i work and live and visited the following countries

1. philippine
2. malaysia
3. russia
4. usa
5. most of the european countries including uk of course
6. china
7. nz
8, japan
9. singapore
10. thailand
11. turkey
12. oman
13. UAE
14. bahrain
15. india
16. korea
17. vietnam

i live with the muslims
i know them well

and i am wary of them
on this issue, i agree with sonofgloin
in small numbers...muslims can be quite amicable
Posted by platypus1900, Wednesday, 14 August 2013 8:35:32 PM
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"Slavery, Terrorism and Islam: The Historical Roots and Contemporary Threat"
authour: Dr. Peter Hammond

http://www.examiner.com/article/as-muslim-population-grows-what-can-happen-to-a-society
Posted by platypus1900, Wednesday, 14 August 2013 10:56:39 PM
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You know what guys?

The fright and hatred that positively drips from the posts of anti-Muslim bigots is very unattractive.

In fact, it reminds me of some of the very people you rant and rave about...the fundamentalist terrorist Muslims or their Imams, or the mad fundamentalist Christians as well.

Lexi and poirot, I admire your considerable restraint amongst this sea of angst!
Posted by Suseonline, Wednesday, 14 August 2013 11:59:10 PM
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Suseonline defaults to the arrogant, patronising manner of the elite [by their own standards].

Considerable evidence has been provided to support the true nature of Islam and the myth of moderation in Islam. All of this is ignored by the likes of suse.

The motivation of and from within Islam is relatively transparent, although the ontology of the religious impulse and its part of the psychology of humans has not been discussed.

What is interesting and unresolved is the psychology of people like suse; presumably a female, a progressive female concerned with her rights and advocating vague, inchoate communal rights while at the same time being unable or unwilling to accept the inherent oppressiveness of Islam, especially towards women.

The psychological contradiction, even cognitive dissonance, of members of an oppressed group being at the lead of that oppression is well documented. Summer's treatise, "God's Police and Damned Whores" is a case in point where Summers describes how women are divided up into the promoters of oppressive religious based ideology and those moral deviants who are the target of the God's police of that ideology.

Summers directed her ire towards conservatism, especially Christian oppression of women.

There has been no equivalent treatise coming from the women's liberation movement towards Islam which offers a far more comprehensive and intense God's policing of women.

One reason I suspect for that, apart from the vanity of moral elites from the left in the West, is the cowardice of the left, particularly feminism. Islam bites back, beheads women, mutilates their genitals and does not brook any movement away from feminine subservience.

That observation is not a product of fear or paranoia but a reasonable, measured analysis of Islam and feminism and progressivism generally.

In that context suse's comment is specious and ironic.
Posted by cohenite, Thursday, 15 August 2013 3:27:16 AM
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Gawd, you're all so scared of your own shadows I wonder how you manage to get out of bed in the morning!

Chicken Little had nothing on you lot.
Posted by Antiseptic, Thursday, 15 August 2013 7:24:52 AM
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"W Trevor says that the fact that 3 Islamic countries do not support specific and particular harsh aspects of sharia means those nations do not support sharia."

Since I only wrote six words, "Yours, I would have thought, cohenite..." it must have been you saying it.

Why am I being verballed when you claimed "all muslims from all countries" despite having presented evidence to the contrary?

It's not like I accused you of contradicting yourself, hyperbole or lying.
Posted by WmTrevor, Thursday, 15 August 2013 7:59:32 AM
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W Trevor. I can only repeat; the surveys show almost universal support within Islam for sharia; there are significant regional differences about whether particularly severe aspects of sharia should be followed.

The point I would make is if you have sharia the harsh laws are on the books and in place and can be invoked.

Within Islam because the peaceful mass share the same goal of sharia as the violent Muslims invariably 2 things happen.

Firstly there is no effective opposition from the peaceful majority to violence as I explained above.

Secondly when sharia does come in it is controlled by the violent majority.

At the end of the day Islam has the runs on the board. Where-ever it takes over there is oppression, violence and Western secular democracy is out the window.

The defenders of Islam seem to be wishful in their thinking and ignoring the evidence and immediate history of Islam in Western society.

Antiseptic goes further down the nuisance path and compares those who are sceptical of Islam with "chicken-little". The sceptics of Islam aren't "chicken-littles"; the modern "chicken-littles" are the AGW alarmists; they're the ones who think the sky is going to fall. How ironic!
Posted by cohenite, Thursday, 15 August 2013 9:00:01 AM
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cohenite,

Strange how the guy who's running up and down threads warning us a about Muslims and the danger to our Enlightenment thinking is the same person who rejects scientific consensus on global warming.

Laugh a minute around here : )
Posted by Poirot, Thursday, 15 August 2013 9:07:47 AM
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poirot: Strange how the guy who's running up and down threads warning us a about Muslims and the danger to our Enlightenment thinking

I guess the difference is that we are realists. We can see the problems caused by Islam throughout history & the same problems happening throughout the World now. The West is enlightened & we don't want to go back to the Dark Ages.

Poirot: the same person who rejects scientific consensus on global warming.

The same reasoning as above & we don't want to go back to the Dark Ages. Global Warming has come & gone, as has Global Cooling. It's a natural Earth Cycle. That natural Cycle has always been of some benefit to life on Earth in some way.

I suggest that if you are so amoured by Islam & being as Green as you can be then you should find yourself a place as far away from modernity as you can & live there & praise which ever Islamic Sect & Allah all you like. Don't take your; phone, electricity, medical supplies, car or bike, etc, that way you will be saving the planet & won't be a hypocrite by using those things as you do now. ;-)

Laugh a minute around here : )

Yes, I must admit we do get a good laugh from you & your ilk. Somewhat nervously though.
Posted by Jayb, Thursday, 15 August 2013 11:03:11 AM
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SOL: The fright and hatred that positively drips from the posts of anti-Muslim bigots is very unattractive.

How very PC Suse. I guess we find what Muslims do as very unattractive. I suppose what they do is OK with you though.

Anti: Gawd, you're all so scared of your own shadows I wonder how you manage to get out of bed in the morning!

No, just scared of what the Muslims have in store for you & me mate, that's all.

Platy: I'm glad to see someone else has had some experience with Muslims. I've had three years overseas, two of those in Malacca, Malaysia where I mixed with & got to understand the locals a lot. It was in Kelantan where I got told that anyone that didn't have Allah was an animal & could be shot, no problem. We'd run into some of the Orang Alsi & the local Imam was shoftieing them along.
Posted by Jayb, Thursday, 15 August 2013 11:03:33 AM
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What a great future lies ahead for Australia and the world; living in the dark due to AGW renewable energy policies and preying 5 times a day when the religion of peace takes over.
Posted by cohenite, Thursday, 15 August 2013 12:52:36 PM
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no comments on the article i attached from the book by Dr Hammond?

again i would say, try not to give your compassionate and accomodative views from behind the computer screen
tell me you have been there
tell me you have lived with them
tell me you have worked with them
tell me you have seen how they react when their allah and prophet are maligned

i have lived with very docile, law abiding muslims who turn scarily vicious when their muslim brothers are bullied
it is fine to have 'righteous anger'
but it is another thing to threaten with jihad and suicide bombings
Posted by platypus1900, Thursday, 15 August 2013 12:57:42 PM
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Hell's Bells, look like we have a fresh religious nutter on the forum, one platypus1900.

On his first post we have “do you folks know for a fact that Japan is the only nation that has a non-muslim migration policy?”.

Dear platypus1900, no I didn't know that was a fact because it isn't, it is tripe. Japan does not have a non-muslim immigration policy and spouting that lie amongst others just goes to show how morally corrupt your side is on this issue.

Perhaps a retraction might be in order.
Posted by csteele, Thursday, 15 August 2013 2:03:55 PM
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Poiror>> Strange how the guy who's running up and down threads warning us a about Muslims and the danger to our Enlightenment thinking is the same person who rejects scientific consensus on global warming.<<

P for all your "scientific consensus" about sea level rises the last ten years in Sydney harbour have been BELOW the 200 odd years of records taken at Fort Dennison…..why?
I have a load of friends in Fiji, no change there either.

Re the highs and lows in global temperatures, how do you make value judgments on records that go back hundreds of years when the cycles may take thousands….we have a 10% record of a 1000 year cycle and the fanatics claim that our weather patterns are precedents….give me a break

Do you know how many BILLIONS have gone to your propagators of “scientific consensus,” more than enough Billions to lie and misrepresent the facts. Have you forgotten about the famous J curve lie?....They did it for the money P
Posted by sonofgloin, Thursday, 15 August 2013 2:38:19 PM
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Actually Japan does not ban Muslim immigration but it makes life very tough for Muslims in Japan:

http://themuslimissue.wordpress.com/2013/05/22/japan-the-land-without-muslims/

One, if one cared, would wonder what side of the "issue" csteele is on; no doubt the morally superior and condescending one.
Posted by cohenite, Thursday, 15 August 2013 2:42:07 PM
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cohenite: One, if one cared, would wonder what side of the "issue" csteele is on; no doubt the morally superior and condescending one.

Oh! that's easy. csteel roots loudly for the terrorists in every way. I wondered where he was. He's usually on here deflecting every thing that is said. Such is the way of their ilk. It's called "Taqiyya" Lying for Islam, isn't it Ccteel.
Posted by Jayb, Thursday, 15 August 2013 3:02:31 PM
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You have the examples of Mohammed (Islams founder and prophet) or Secularist like Stalin ( no wonder abortion is championed) or the Lord Jesus Christ.
Posted by runner, Thursday, 15 August 2013 3:34:32 PM
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Runner,

It's not the "examples" - it's always been the followers.

Some are violent fanatics, some are not.
Some lead decent lives, others sexually molest children.
Some are tolerant, some are not.
Posted by wobbles, Thursday, 15 August 2013 8:02:06 PM
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@csteele

50-80 years ago, you ask any australian migration officials if they subscribe to the "white australia" policy, the will deny that to their grave

they just gave 'simple' english language tests to poor colored which australian whites cannot even pass

retract?
no.
Posted by platypus1900, Thursday, 15 August 2013 11:26:31 PM
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@cohenite

my cousin married a japanese and has been living in tokyo for the last 20 years
we discussed such matters often

please see my last post on the 'white australia' policy

such 'sensitive' policies are never in b&w !

cheers
Posted by platypus1900, Friday, 16 August 2013 11:25:17 AM
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Hi Platypus; I'm not a fan of Japanese culture and its monolithic nature, but in the case of Islam they have got it right.

I am sick to death of the luvvies, chatterers and egotistical fools who take the high moral road to stupidity by supporting Islam.

I am for a large Australian population and support immigration of people of any type, shape, colour, culture etc; with ONE condition.

That condition is they honour and preference the secular, democratic, individual rights based Western social and political and legal structure.

Muslims do not do this. How plainer can it be. Muslim immigrants are not the same as previous waves and generations of immigrants. They are different because they want to introduce sharia and change the secular basis of our society. The evidence for this both within and outside Australia is overwhelming yet we still get these fools defending Islamic rights to have their sharia laws respected and permitted.
Posted by cohenite, Friday, 16 August 2013 11:57:06 AM
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@cohenite

i agree with your views but perhaps dont call them names?
i know they call you names but as my late mum always say, you wrestle with pigs, you end up muddy..hh

there are certain jap national traits which i admire
see how polite and orderly they were during the earthquake and tsunami
compare them with the americans...looting and plundering
shameless americans

some i dont
like following the emperor blindly to war
and not acknowledging their war crimes

i agree with you whoever choose to make this beautiful country their home, should embrace our govt and legal structure here

but i would also like to add that many of our australian values need plenty of re-thinking

we have the following tendencies

1. ape the west and the americans
2. have an underdog mentality (links to our criminal past?)... we end up sympathising with gays...greens...poor helpless migrants from ME
3. tall poppy loppers - can we learn to celebrate success?
4. be lean "left"... i learnt this in the other thread... we need to have sensible Greens and not blind Greens... we need to have more discipline in bringing up our children...not ape the Dr Spocks
5. worry too much what the world thinks of us, esp our policy on the boat people...we cannot let people smugglers dictate our national policies. Only traitors like KRudd will use foreign politicians to arm wrestle his fellow country politicians.

cheers
Posted by platypus1900, Friday, 16 August 2013 12:19:56 PM
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Platy: but i would also like to add that many of our australian values need plenty of re-thinking. we have the following tendencies

1. ape the west and the americans.

Well we are essentially Western, but you are right about some of the younger people apeing Americans. (Can we say Ape now.)

2. have an underdog mentality (links to our criminal past?)... we end up sympathising with gays...greens...poor helpless migrants from ME.

Do we have an underdog mentality. Some might but I don't think most people have.
3. tall poppy loppers - can we learn to celebrate success?

Well I do agree with you here but some Tall Poppies need to be cut down. I especially have an affinity for the ones that think their $#!T doesn't stink.

4. be lean "left"... i learnt this in the other thread... we need to have sensible Greens and not blind Greens... we need to have more discipline in bringing up our children...not ape the Dr Spocks.

Sensible Green? Where are you going to find one of those. OK, yes I have met some. They get just as annoyed with the Loonies as the rest of us.
cont.
Posted by Jayb, Friday, 16 August 2013 1:05:42 PM
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cont.
5. worry too much what the world thinks of us, esp our policy on the boat people...we cannot let people smugglers dictate our national policies.

The world really doesn't think, or know much about us or our policies at all. When One Nation was at it's peak I travelled back to Singapore, Malaysia, France & the UK. Everywhere I went I asked them what they knew about Pauline Hanson. Only one cab driver in Singapore had any Idea & he agreed with her & one guy in Dublin had an idea that she was some sort of politician, but he didn't know what she stood for or anything about her. So much for her ruining Australia's reputation in the World. Yanks can't even find us on a map (see utube for the videos.) The Europeans think we are great & a long way away but that's about it. Oh Kangaroos & Koalas.

I think the World doesn't give a stuff about what we do with the Refugees. It's only the Loony tunes that are making the noise here. I really don't know why we even give a dam about what they say. It's better just to ignore them. The Media sells papers out of them & the Law profession makes money out of the controversy the Greenies create.
Posted by Jayb, Friday, 16 August 2013 1:06:22 PM
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I see one of Australia's moderate Muslims, Waleed Aly, is siding with the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt; the hypocrisy and irony of this along with the vacuous support Aly gets from the rest of the Channel 10 The Project is well described by Bolt who I suspect is coming around to support the myth of the Moderate Muslim:

http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/index.php/heraldsun/comments/behind_egypts_bloodshed_an_election_does_not_make_extremists_safer/

I well remember the vile comments Aly made about Ayaan Hirsi Ali who remains under threat of death by Aly's fellow Muslims; underneath the fashionable stubble and measured tones Aly is the personification of why Islam is never moderate.
Posted by cohenite, Saturday, 17 August 2013 10:03:01 AM
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cohenite,

While I'm not enamoured of fundamentalist anything, can you enlighten me as to who has carried out the recent slaughter on Egypt's streets.

(I'm supposing it's not the Muslim Brotherhood)

You mean others act like bloodthirsty barbarians, not just Islamists?
Posted by Poirot, Saturday, 17 August 2013 10:17:16 AM
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That's a fair point Poirot, at face value. Without going into the pros and cons of whether Morsoi should have been removed, and I personally think he should because like Turkey Egypt was having its constitution rewritten to remove the democratic rights for others which the Muslim brotherhood enjoyed to win the election, the fact is the Brotherhood deliberately engaged the army at their prearranged demonstrations and were plainly well armed.

Protesting peacefully is one thing and using your demonstrations to shoot at police is another.

Let me ask you, do you think the Muslim Brotherhood were going to go peacefully? Consider what their leader and founder Hassan al-Banna says:

God is our goal.

The Prophet is our leader.

The Koran is our constitution.

Jihad is our way.

Death in the service of God is the loftiest of our wishes.

God is great, God is great.

To me your concern is predicated on the possibility of a reasonable discourse and compromise with Islamist groups with the resolution being that they will be happy to live within a secular democracy.

Tell me if that is not your assumption, but if it is it is plainly wrong. As I have argued there is no evidence within Islam that is the case.

Inevitably therefore conflict with Islam is the only resolution. With that in mind I do not think the next 10 years in Australia is going to be very pleasant as our Muslim population grows.

But tell me by all means where you see examples and evidence of moderation coming from within Islam.
Posted by cohenite, Saturday, 17 August 2013 11:16:18 AM
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'Runner,

It's not the "examples" - it's always been the followers. '

hardly the right term 'follower ' if you ain't following. That means a good muslim is one that does not folllow Mohammed.
Posted by runner, Saturday, 17 August 2013 11:24:16 AM
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Cohenite: But tell me by all means where you see examples and evidence of moderation coming from within Islam.

I'll have a bet with you C. You won't get a direct answer from poirot. You will get deflection & avoidance, but not a direct answer. If you do, you will be unique amoungt the posters here.
Posted by Jayb, Saturday, 17 August 2013 11:29:01 AM
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@poirot

i try not to critique what is happening in egypt now
too complex
that faith condones lying
how in the world you try to find out the truth
many of them have DID to allah
how to verify that?

i will comment on how they behave in countries i worked and lived in
and that i do believe i know from first hand experience

armchair critique is all so academic

cheers
Posted by platypus1900, Saturday, 17 August 2013 11:29:08 AM
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platy: that faith condones lying. how in the world you try to find out the truth.

I guess you don't. I take it that it's only condoned to "Taqiyya" (lie) to Infidels, not Muslims. Am I correct in that; csteel, poirot, Lexi, etc? You lot profess to know more about Islam than I do.
Posted by Jayb, Saturday, 17 August 2013 11:35:33 AM
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cohenite,

Well, it's all about "power" and power vacuums.

What started all this in the first place?

Humans are vicious when the conditions are ripe.
Posted by Poirot, Saturday, 17 August 2013 11:40:44 AM
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I dispute that Poirot. Most people are quite content to get on with their own business and expect reciprocation from other citizens. Some don't sure, but that's why we have criminal laws.

Islam is another kettle of fish; there is no power vacuum in the West and that is it's greatness; the Western model relies on its citizens electing proxies every few years or so. You cannot elect or have any say with religious authority. That's a fact; edicts are handed down usually by self-appointed authorities on God's word.

In principle that is how all religions work but not all religions are doing what Islam does which is actively, even ferociously and implacably work towards replacing people power with God's power.

You really are not thinking about this clearly Poirot unless you understand that basic point.
Posted by cohenite, Saturday, 17 August 2013 11:47:18 AM
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So Mubarak and his corrupt government and his corrupt cronies were the steadying force?

The general population became poorer, while the elite pocketed the gains from privatisation (Egypt was one of the World Bank's consistently top reformers last decade)

When the food riots started, the situation became untenable.

It's not just the religion, it's the systems employed to govern which lead to unrest.

You make it sound so simple.

We now have a power vacuum and it's not surprising that competing ideologies clash.
Posted by Poirot, Saturday, 17 August 2013 11:53:18 AM
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I'm not saying Muburak was perfect but I do not subscript to the blowback theory which Pilger promotes; namely the rise of communism and tyrants like Pol Pot were a direct consequence of the Yanks. And now the Yanks are responsible for the rise of Islam in Egypt and elsewhere.

Anyway you are being slippery because at the end of your logic lies the argument that the West has made Islam the way it is due to Western aggression. I'm not sure that's what you're leading to so perhaps you can confirm or deny that is your position.

The West has not made Islam what it is today; what the West has done is give Islam the wherewithal to implement its hegemonistic ambitions. It's probably more accurate that Western oil companies in collusion with some short thinking has given Islam that financial backing but the point is made; once Islam had the cash it was going to spread itself.

So really it is pointless going down the anti-USA path because we have to deal with Islam as it is today.

So how do we deal in Australia with the threat of sharia law?
Posted by cohenite, Saturday, 17 August 2013 12:15:37 PM
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Dear Cohenite,

Political experts have stated that the principal foreign
enemy of the fundamentalists is the "Great Satan,"
the United States. The fundamentalists
find it politically helpful to have an alien enemy.
The solidarity of any community is enhanced if it perceives
a common outside threat. The United States provides crucial
support for Israel, whose presence in an otherwise Islamic
area is seen as a continuing wound to all Muslims.
However despite these two reasons the main cause of the
fundamentalists' hostility to the United States, however,
is that they fear the impact of American culture and
political interference in their societies.

Muslims, we are told, look with horror at American's
sexual permissiveness, at the relative assertiveness and
immodesty of American women, at the high rates of illegitimacy,
abortion, and divorce, at the pre-occupation with pleasure,
drugs, alcohol, pornography, and material possessions,
and the search for individual self-fulfillment at the
expense of obligations to kin and community.

The fundamentalists according to Prof. A. Saeed regard
Americans essentially as barbarians whose economic,
technological, and military influence threatens the integrity
of Muslim societies and traditions.

Their own governments, they claim, are often used as mere
pawns in America's geo-political strategies, strategies in
which the interests of ordinary Muslims count for nothing.

Despite their antipathy to the US, the fundamentalists are
concerned mainly with conditions in their own countries.
Muslims are desperately poor, for their nations' oil
wealth as we know has been unequally shared, creating
a new elite whose extravagant lifestyles arouse deep
resentment in the populace.

Therefore Islamic fundamentalism arises out of specific
social and cultural conditions and influences
the subsequent course of social change in those countries.
Posted by Lexi, Saturday, 17 August 2013 12:40:16 PM
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lovely to see the troubles being brought to Australia as the muslim brotherhood infiltrate (I suspect largely through illegal migration).

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/muslim-brotherhood-active-in-sydney-20130816-2s29s.html

congratulations Labour and Greens and gutless Libs on pushing this rubbish on to Australia.
Posted by runner, Saturday, 17 August 2013 1:08:45 PM
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Dear runner,

What an odd thing to say in your last post -
"...pushing this rubbish through,"
onto our nation. Rubbish?

You as a self-proclaimed practising Christian
are supposed to love your neighbour as yourself and
love them for who they are, not for who you want them
to be.

Romans 12: "Bless those who persecute you; bless and
do not curse them."

Matthew 5:44: "Love your enemies and pray for those
who persecute you."

It sounds like you need some prayers yourself.
"Father forgive them for they know not what they do."
Posted by Lexi, Saturday, 17 August 2013 2:26:55 PM
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Lexi: Romans 12: "Bless those who persecute you; bless and
do not curse them."

Matthew 5:44: "Love your enemies and pray for those
who persecute you."

You Islamists Must love passages like that, eh. Ah! We can kill the Infidel & they have to love us for it.

Lexi: "Father forgive them for they know not what they do."

Oh the Islanists know what they do alright & do they take advantage of it.

I notice none of the Islamists have responded to Cohenite: But tell me by all means where you see examples and evidence of moderation coming from within Islam?

I notice none of the Islamists have responded to platy: that faith condones lying. how in the world you try to find out the truth?

I notice none of the Islamists have responded to Jayb: I take it that it's only condoned to "Taqiayya" (lie) to Infidels, not Muslims. Am I correct in that; csteel, poirot, Lexi, etc?

You Islamist supporters have chosen to ignore questions, again.

Has anybody seen the photos of the young 20 year old Christian girl, bound to a bed, raped & a large wooden Crucifix shoved down her throat? Very Graphic.

SHE WAS ATTACKED - RAPED BY ABOUT 20 MUSLIMS AND AFTERWARDS MURDERED IN SYRIA. WHAT WAS HER CRIME? "SHE WAS A CHRISTIAN"

What sort of religion is this? Is this is the real face of: "SHARIA LAW". Yep! you becha.
Posted by Jayb, Saturday, 17 August 2013 3:36:44 PM
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You can always rely on Jayb to inject a modicum of hysteria into the thread.......
Posted by Poirot, Saturday, 17 August 2013 3:39:23 PM
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Lexi,
You are very naive to the reality our grandchildren will have to deal with. Muslims are brainwashed with Koranic hatred, it is taught and chanted in their schools. Yes love your enemy as by Christ, but a deceitful person cannot be trusted, and deceit is part of the Muslim way in dealing with kafir. I have christian friends that taught in early Islamic schools in Western Sydney while they were accredited but all left when the superior role of Koranic lessons took away core childhood development subjects.

You will not find hatred of western culture and people taught in State or Christian schools or even the hatred of Islam taught. In fact the education department even promotes acceptance of Islam as a subject over any other religion with its Harmony course. No other religion has been Government funding to teach acceptance by Australian children. Living in Harmony is a Commonwealth Government funded program to accept Muslims in Australia adopted by schools in which Muslims are found.
Posted by Josephus, Saturday, 17 August 2013 3:39:51 PM
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Since when was the cultural cringe of the Left understood as tolerance or being a 'do gooder'?

So often the 'tolerance' of the Left is just a vehicle and cover for their hatred of our cultural inheritance, traditions and way of life. One often wonders what motivates them in their hatred.
Posted by onthebeach, Saturday, 17 August 2013 3:46:59 PM
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Lexi there is so much that is wrong with what you wrote that it is hard to begin.

Firstly it is plain you agree with the Muslim view that the US, as the symbol of the West, is decadent and self-indulgent and, as you put it, more interested in "the search for individual self-fulfilment at the expense of obligations to kin and community."

This is really a statement of the inherent tribalism of Islam which apart from being one reason for its antipathy towards the West also explains the horrendous sectarian violence within Islam. That of course is inevitable with fundamentalist religions; individuality is expressed through different interpretations of the religious source and since there is no restraining secular social structure there is perpetual war.

You then say that Muslims regard themselves as "mere pawns in America's geo-political strategies, strategies in which the interests of ordinary Muslims count for nothing."

I think this is incorrect for a number of reasons. Firstly what "geo-political strategies" are you talking about? Energy security? The US has more oil than all the Middle Eastern nations combined.

Secondly, it assumes that people like living in a despotic oppressive society where especially if they are women their lives would be controlled from birth to death. The problem for the Yanks is when they go into countries like Iraq and Afghanistan and they get rid of the monster Saddam or the monsters, the Taliban, they don't also muzzle Islam so the problems re-emerge.

More generally you seem to be saying that Muslim people are happy to be living in societies which are oppressive. How can they be true when the immigration is away from Islam and not towards it. People are voting with their feet and boats. The problem for the West is that the immigrating Muslims bring their religion with them.

You simply avoid the basic issue which is Islam only offers an oppressive society and your only answer is that it is the West's fault.
Posted by cohenite, Saturday, 17 August 2013 4:07:54 PM
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poirot: You can always rely on Jayb to inject a modicum of hysteria into the thread.

So you agree with what they did because she was an Infidel? I guess you do.

You were asked some questions poirot. Why have you chosen to do the usual ignore? You could at least "Taqiayya"

OTB: One often wonders what motivates them in their hatred.

I don't wonder. I know. We're Infidels, therefore we are animals, therefore they can kill us. It's not a sin to kill an Infidel, it's will get you closer to heaven. Won't it poirot?
Posted by Jayb, Saturday, 17 August 2013 4:14:19 PM
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i am still waiting for the sympathizers to comment on the "behaviour of muslims in the country they adopt" by hammond
silence?

i have been to most of all the countries and i attest to what is written in the book to be true

i was the ceo of a US$1.5Bn company in india
no followers of any religious faith asked for a prayer room but the muslims... they insisted
my respond was simple
the co was a secular company...no prayer rooms for the hindoos...not for the christians...not for the buddhists and also NO to the muslims
NO...simple .. short and sweet

but you will see them pushing the boundaries
let them breed to 5%....10%...15%....than it is too late

may the Trojan horse not come into our beautiful country
and may the sympathisers not be the one to open the gates
Posted by platypus1900, Saturday, 17 August 2013 4:58:51 PM
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Platypus,
Algerian president Houari Boumedienne "One day millions of men will leave Arabia to go to Europe. And they will not go there as friends. They will go there to conquer it. And they will conquer it with their sons. The wombs of our women will give us victory."

former President H B 1932--1978

Received info from Sweden which states that by 2015, 50% of the population will be Muslem. Not far away!

Already, by government decree, there is no such person as a Swede, these former Swedes are now known as 'persons of Swedish background'

So, officially, Swedish people have ceased to exist.

So this blokes prediction is coming true, one only has to look at UK and Europe. Australia is heading the same way.

The Islamist supporters simply refuse to acknowledge the evidence before them.
Posted by Banjo, Saturday, 17 August 2013 5:46:07 PM
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@banjo

the thing i cannot understand

why our fellow country men cannot see the green trojan horse

the other is the rainbow trojan horse

very sad

the thing about trojan horses, when it is in athens, all will be lost
no ifs and buts

sad
Posted by platypus1900, Saturday, 17 August 2013 6:29:06 PM
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The image flashed across our TV screens of that fat bearded Muslim wearing sandals and white pyjamas holding a placard that read “behead those who insult Islam” should convince us that there is no place for Muslims here. They were protesting about the film that was perceived to have insulted their faith. If their faith is so fragile it should have no future in today’s world. If we allow them to intimidate us they will overcome us quicker than we can imagine. They have set the stage to overcome us in numbers and hopefully our leaders have seen the threat and will act on it. We can start by banning the burqa as the French have done and closing Islamic schools.
Posted by SILLER, Sunday, 18 August 2013 4:07:52 PM
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SILLER, there is a partial ban, or restriction on the burqa in NSW:

http://travel.cnn.com/sydney/life/law-speaks-take-burqa-333128

Apologists for Islam usually justify the burqa as being a woman's right. This is a spurious argument superseded by 2 superior rights.

The first is the right of women is Islamic countries not to wear the burqa; this does not exist so the hypocrisy of Islamists demanding the right to wear the burqa here is complete.

The second right is more fundamental; that right, in an open and free society, is to deal with people at face value and to be able to form social interactions at all levels, with other people. You cannot do that with a burqa; the burqa therefore, is a fundamental assault on the open and free society we have.
Posted by cohenite, Sunday, 18 August 2013 5:38:26 PM
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Dear cohenite,

If women continue to gain more weight in this country,
the burqa may seem like a good idea after all. ;-)
Posted by Lexi, Sunday, 18 August 2013 10:43:55 PM
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Yes Lexi, I supposed there is that; even so for those connoisseurs of the female form whose preference is for the more Rabelaisian female style that too will be a loss.
Posted by cohenite, Monday, 19 August 2013 8:43:01 AM
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We could always insist on Muslim men wearing a male type Burka. Seeing men's faces & hair would encourage women to rape men & that would force women to Xin. We would then have to start executing the men who were raped. I really think that's a good idea. Don't you? ;-)
Posted by Jayb, Monday, 19 August 2013 10:14:11 AM
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Dear Cohenite,

All the more reason for these goddesses to be covered up.
(To prevent these men from having those
"should-seek-medical-help" erections for days). :-)
Posted by Lexi, Monday, 19 August 2013 11:27:02 AM
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As far as I have been able to understand, the burqua is there so that
other men cannot see their wives.
Are Arab men so metally unbalanced that they are unable to control
themselves if they see an attractive woman they want to rape her ?

Is that why we see so many cases of Moslem gang rape and trafficing of
western women by moslems in western countries ?

Another thing is the head scarf. It appears that there is no probelm
with seeing some moslem women but you cannot see their hair.
Is it hair that drives Arab men off their brain ?
Weird !
It must be something to do with their inbreeding.
Thats the sort of thing that occurs with inbreeding.
I think we need a law against marrying cousins.

Perhaps also, we should have a blanket ban of moslem men coming here.
Posted by Bazz, Monday, 19 August 2013 1:51:51 PM
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Yeah, Bazz - it makes you wonder.

Take a hot summer's day at the beach, blokes strutting around without their shirts - and the poor women have to keep their shirts on.

Why can't women walk around without a shirt in the hot weather?

Because that's not what we do in our society.

Does it mean Western men are "unbalanced" because women have to keep their breasts covered.

Were Western men at the turn of last century less balanced when long dresses, hats and gloves abounded - when a woman dare not show her ankles?

I don't think so.

Strange, these cultural mores.
Posted by Poirot, Monday, 19 August 2013 2:14:26 PM
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poirot: and the poor women have to keep their shirts on. Does it mean Western men are "unbalanced" because women have to keep their breasts covered.

They don't have to. Most beaches I've ever been to in the last 30 years there have always been some bare breasts & usually down one end of the beach nude. No one gives a second glance.

poirot: Does it mean Western men are "unbalanced" because women have to keep their breasts covered. Were Western men at the turn of last century less balanced when long dresses, hats and gloves abounded - when a woman dare not show her ankles?

Of course not. No one gives a second glance any more. Western men & women have come a long way from the Edwardian era when the old Methodist fire & brimstone Preachers controlled peoples morals. Thank goodness.

poirot: I don't think so.

Neither do I poirot. It is only Muslim men that are unbalanced nowadays because they are still living in the 6th Century & haven't evolved.

I think Muslim men should have to wear a Men's burka & cover their hair & faces so women won't be forced to rape them. Don't you think they should? I mean if it's right for women it must be right for Men too.
Posted by Jayb, Monday, 19 August 2013 2:38:53 PM
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Oh gawd, talk about projections.

The idea of the covering is threefold: firstly, it shows that the woman has reserved herself for her husband. It's a public display of commitment. Second, it makes all women equally attractive in a culture in which arranged marriage is often the norm, thereby preventing women who might be less pretty from being left on the shelf, as happens all too often in the West, especially in our shallow, trivial consumer age. Third, it preserves the allure of the female form as something that is to be coveted, thereby enhancing the sexual experience of both parties when it is not. The same thing is what makes a stripshow work, at least it used to. Anticipation heightens arousal.

Of course, if you prefer to wander around with your scrawny sacks swinging in the breeze and the missus's sagging dugs dangling down around her knees for public display then go for it. Don't be surprised if people point and laugh though...or perhaps throw up.
Posted by Antiseptic, Monday, 19 August 2013 3:08:25 PM
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Anti: Don't be surprised if people point and laugh though...or perhaps throw up.

I suppose they would if you walked throw the local shopping mall, but on the appropriate beach? I don't think so. Although a few people, like yourself, apparently, Anti, are so two centuries ago, still. Some people do judge others by their appearance at the beach, but not many. It just shows their lack of respect for their fellow man & their lack of confidence in their own body image, doesn't it?

Have you crossed over & converted to Islam? You seem to be supporting the terrorists lately.
Posted by Jayb, Monday, 19 August 2013 4:20:49 PM
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Jayb,

It only been in the blink of an eye, history-wise, that Westerners have covered up.

You carry on as if we've been letting it all hang out for eons.

When your parents were children ,it would have been almost unthinkable to leave the house without a hat. My mum was made to wear a hat, gloves and stockings when she left the house, once out of childhood. Her grandmother would have been getting around in long skirts and petticoats - legs hidden well away.

And don't hold up nudey beaches as the norm in Australia. On most "regular" beaches, you won't see a nipple.
Posted by Poirot, Monday, 19 August 2013 4:30:23 PM
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"It only been in the blink of an eye, history-wise, that Westerners have covered up."

Should be "shed the coverings".
Posted by Poirot, Monday, 19 August 2013 4:32:52 PM
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poirot: And don't hold up nudey beaches as the norm in Australia. On most "regular" beaches, you won't see a nipple.

I don't hold up nudist beaches as normal. They are not. On regular beaches you won't see a nipple normally, granted, but occasionally you will & nobody really cares or takes any notice.

Poirot: My mum was made to wear a hat, gloves and stockings when she left the house, once out of childhood. Her grandmother would have been getting around in long skirts and petticoats - legs hidden well away.

Yes, you are right. Well, up until the 60's, by the 70's that stuff had gone out the window. Isn't it great that that type of thinking has gone the way of the horse & cart. Unless you pine for the good old days.

As you suggesting that Muslims women in Australia will be going to the Northern end of Bondi in a Bikini in a few years. Yair right!
Posted by Jayb, Monday, 19 August 2013 4:57:43 PM
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Jayb, all I'm doing is providing some balance.

As I said in an earlier post, some of the nicest, most welcoming, generous, friendly, happy people I know are Muslim. They have a strong sense of justice and fairness and obligation to others, even a person like me of a different race and background. I've never been asked by any Muslim what my religion is, they just don't care as long as I am a good person. Part of being a good person is accepting that others who don't look the same or act the same or speak the same are also good people if they act like good people.

This thread has been all about bigotry and vilification of an "out-group" by an "in-group". It's a kind of display behaviour, not unlike the hackle-raising and stiff-legged strutting of a dog confronted with a stranger intruding on its territory. Just like the dog, it's meant to show how big and scary the locals are, so the intruders won't even try to establish dominance. Also just like the dog, the whole pack runs to add to the display and gang up to drive the intruder away or force it to submit.

A genuinely human response would be to welcome the strangers into the group and make it stronger through incorporating the knowledge, energy, goods and genetic diversity that they bring. Even a temporary visit can impart valuable skills or needful things. The dog is only worried about having to share its food and its access to the bitches.

Would you prefer to be a dog or a human?
Posted by Antiseptic, Monday, 19 August 2013 8:11:29 PM
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Antiseptic.
I have two Doctors who are Muslim and the nicest people you would not find. However look at the behaviour of the Muslim brotherhood in Egypt, yes they believe in democracy until they gain power then they change the constitution to Shari'ah law, which makes the underdog the animal to be subjected to the law of Allah against their will. Australians are able to accept defeat and the victor care for the underdog. Muslim faith is absolute power to the major tribe.
Posted by Josephus, Tuesday, 20 August 2013 7:35:39 AM
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Josephus, I know you are sincere, so are all the others here who are posturing, so is the pack of dogs I discussed on the previous page. The thing is that none of you are actually thinking about what you're saying, you're just growling at the stranger out of reflex.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_Brotherhood

"Founded in Egypt in 1928 as a Pan-Islamic, religious, political, and social movement by the Islamic scholar and schoolteacher Hassan al-Banna by the end of World War II the Muslim Brotherhood had an estimated two million members."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haganah

"The predecessor of Haganah was Hashomer established in 1909, itself a successor of Bar-Giora, founded in 1907. The Bar-Giora consisted of a small group of Jewish immigrants who guarded settlements for an annual fee."

So one started as a social justice movement, the other as a protection racket.

The difference today is that Haganah has become the IDF and that means it has official status as an arm of the Jewish state, which you might be surprised to learn incorporates Sharia as part of its legal system as well as the law of the Muslim Ottoman Empire.

"Foreign and historical influences on modern-day Israeli law are varied and include the Mecelle (the civil code of the Ottoman Empire) and German civil law, religious law (Jewish Halakha and Muslim Sharia; mostly pertaining in the area of family law), and British common law."

As for Egypt

"The Egyptian judicial system is based on European and primarily French legal concepts and methods.

The legal code is derived largely from the Napoleonic Code. Marriage and personal status are primarily based on the religious law of the individual concerned. Thus, there are three forms of family law in Egypt: Islamic, Christian, and secular (based on the French family laws)."

While the Muslim Brotherhood has become ever more radicalised (just like Haganah did) as the antionalists desperately cling to power and the stream of US dollars sent their way through Israel to keep the region destabilised and fragmented.

It won't work forever. Then Israel will have to hope that the Muslims forgive.
Posted by Antiseptic, Tuesday, 20 August 2013 8:34:45 AM
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Antiseptic,
So obviously you treat those in the West that object to an Islamic State as no more than dogs. That identifies you as a Islamic and Koranic believer who treats others who do not believe in your cause as mere animals - unclean dogs. The vilest of all creatures, Koran 98: 7.

When the political arm of Islam can treat all people as honorable and equal citizens and accept all people as equal before God than they might have a grasp of what democracy means.
Posted by Josephus, Tuesday, 20 August 2013 10:20:43 AM
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Josephus,

"Antiseptic,
So obviously you treat those in the West that object to an Islamic State as no more than dogs. That identifies you as a Islamic and Koranic believer who treats others who do not believe in your cause as mere animals - unclean dogs. The vilest of all creatures, Koran 98: 7. "

What a load of vacuous bilge.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/analogy
Posted by Poirot, Tuesday, 20 August 2013 10:35:53 AM
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If it walks like a duck
If it talks like a duck
If it looks like a duck
Then it is a duck !
Posted by Bazz, Tuesday, 20 August 2013 12:00:16 PM
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Anti says:

"The idea of the covering is threefold: firstly, it shows that the woman has reserved herself for her husband. It's a public display of commitment. Second, it makes all women equally attractive in a culture in which arranged marriage is often the norm, thereby preventing women who might be less pretty from being left on the shelf, as happens all too often in the West, especially in our shallow, trivial consumer age. Third, it preserves the allure of the female form as something that is to be coveted, thereby enhancing the sexual experience of both parties when it is not. The same thing is what makes a stripshow work, at least it used to. Anticipation heightens arousal."

That is weird.

Firstly the burqa is not a sign of commitment, it is a sign of oppression; women who are forced to do something are not committed in any meaningful way.

2ndly the burqa doesn't make all women equally attractive, it makes all women equally oppressed and invisible.

3rdly, heightens sexual arousal; what are you, 13?!

Seriously, that is the weirdest, most sexist comment I've read in a while
Posted by cohenite, Tuesday, 20 August 2013 12:41:22 PM
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Dear Bazz,

If it walks like a duck
If it talks like a duck
If it looks like a duck
Then it must be a duck?

Not necessarily. I could be that you need
stronger meds or new glasses. ;-)
Posted by Lexi, Tuesday, 20 August 2013 1:56:19 PM
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QUACK QUACK QUACK
Posted by Bazz, Tuesday, 20 August 2013 4:33:39 PM
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Lexi: Not necessarily.

Smells like a duck.
Tastes like a duck.
Yep. It's a duck alright.
Posted by Jayb, Tuesday, 20 August 2013 4:38:23 PM
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cohenite,
Some men in the Iraqi armed forces find men more sexually attractive than women in burkas, as they say sex with women are for babies, sex with men is for pleasure. So women in burkas are not sexually attractive to some Muslim men.
Posted by Josephus, Tuesday, 20 August 2013 5:37:03 PM
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Dear Bazz,

Therein lies your problem.

You need to go to a real doctor,
not a "QUACK, QUACK, QUACK."
:-)
Posted by Lexi, Tuesday, 20 August 2013 6:37:06 PM
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Dear Jayb,

If you're happy and you know it -
share your meds.

And change your diet.
Posted by Lexi, Tuesday, 20 August 2013 6:41:57 PM
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cohenite, it's just as well Muslims have you around to tell them just what they believe, eh?

Since you've been so busy learning about other cultures, you may not have had time for you own, so this handy guide might help. I can't vouch for its accuracy though. I mean, who ever heard of using gefilte fish to lure gerbils? Completely impractical. Current pest practice involves a vacuum cleaner, although any sucker will do.

The kippa is widely understood as both a practical tool and cautionary reminder of the importance of personal hygiene in a desert culture where water is scarce and toilet paper unobtainable. It's carried on the head to proclaim the regularity of the wearer's bowels by inference from the colour of the kippa. In more devout communities direct inspection using the traditional art of cohenoscopy is common (popularly known as "having a butchers") which is performed in the "boning room".

Next lesson we'll consider the proper use of matzoh in contraception, part of our new series on making the most of your dough. A special bonus: chat-up lines guaranteed to work on Palestinian prisoners. You'll be irresistible!

All part of the comparative religion hour on Radio YHWH. All the hits you never saw coming.
Posted by Antiseptic, Wednesday, 21 August 2013 3:50:30 AM
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Sign of a beaten debater resort to ridicule and an attempt to belittle the opponent.
Posted by Josephus, Wednesday, 21 August 2013 8:55:37 AM
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Anti's post was too academic for me I'm afraid. I didn't understand a word. Must have been whatever was in that Hooka,I think.
Posted by Jayb, Wednesday, 21 August 2013 9:51:53 AM
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Josephus,

Sign of a beaten debater when he posts his own warped opinion as substance.

Like this, for instance:

"Some men in the Iraqi armed forces find men more sexually attractive than women in burkas, as they say sex with women are for babies, sex with men is for pleasure. So women in burkas are not sexually attractive to some Muslim men."
Posted by Poirot, Wednesday, 21 August 2013 10:03:13 AM
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"Sign of a beaten debater..."

Welts, I would have thought.

Does Sharia Law mandate this? With a cane?

Some of the illogic in this debate, Josephus, would be analogous to judging and characterising all Christians by the standards of the Westboro Baptist Church...

Which I don't, by the way... the truth and the light.
Posted by WmTrevor, Wednesday, 21 August 2013 10:35:53 AM
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Anti; yeah I'm not sure what you're getting at either.

I had a yarn with a woman today who noted the only possible reason for wearing a burqa was to resist the elements when living the desert.

There is no such reason for wearing one in a modern Western society.

The conversation is meandering so in an effort to refocus it can we have some opinion as whether the burqa should be banned in public and reasons for or against that proposition?
Posted by cohenite, Wednesday, 21 August 2013 4:59:38 PM
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Jayb, a simple demonstration of the use of an amplified and phase-reversed signal to damp intrusive signals in the rhetorical space, creating a noise-free and sematically-empty environment for discourse and reducing information lost as mechanically generated heat.

Or in other words, the art of dealing with fools who won't shut up their catcalling and making rude comments about other people in the audience who are too polite or too shy to speak for themselves by showing them how it should be done.

Isn't it nice and quiet in here now? Who knows, we might even be able to hear ourselves think?
Posted by Antiseptic, Wednesday, 21 August 2013 5:11:58 PM
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Cohenite, are you aware of any examples of women wearing burqas committing serious crimes in Australia or evidence that inappropriate use of burqas by men as a disguise is more problematic than the use of balaclavas or bike helmets or the bikie's bandanna?

If not, then we're back to silly racist scaremongering and fingerpointing and that's just a waste of time and effort.
Posted by Antiseptic, Wednesday, 21 August 2013 5:51:31 PM
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I take it by your comment Anti that you approve of the burqa.

It is a misguided viewpoint for reasons I have already mentioned, which are:

1 It ignores the lack of right of Muslim women in Muslim countries NOT to wear the burqa.

2 More importantly it compromises the very nature of a free and open society where citizens are entitled to interact with other people with as much information about those people as possible. You cannot interact with people who are covered from head to foot.

3 Equally importantly the burqa is not an expression of freedom but enslavement. No-one in their right mind would think that the burqa liberates women. It traduces their freedom and reduces them to chattels.

4 Symbolically the burqa represents the move within Islam for ascendency over the secular Western structure. Symbols are important and behaviour, attitudes and legal prescriptions often follow. We see this already happening with segregation occurring in many public spaces to accommodate the burqa.

I agree with you about a waste of time but it is you who is wasting it; your persistent defaults to the hackneyed slogans of racism is both wrong and tedious.
Posted by cohenite, Wednesday, 21 August 2013 6:53:23 PM
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cohenite,

"I had a yarn with a woman today who noted the only possible reason for wearing a burqa was to resist the elements when living the desert.

There is no such reason for wearing one in a modern Western society."

Why do men wear ties with Western dress?

There is apparently no reason that I can see for the wearing of a tie.

Just curious?
Posted by Poirot, Wednesday, 21 August 2013 7:49:14 PM
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Poirot, say something sensible.

Can you still interact with a man wearing a tie? Does the tie symbolise an oppressive cult which not only represses women but non-Muslims and a host of other minorities? Do men with ties actively seek to replace secular Western society with a fanatical religion?

Why pick on ties? What have ever done to you? What about what Muslim men wear?

Are you one of these feminists who so despises the Western patriarch that they cannot see the infinitely worse patriarch waiting to replace the now essentially emasculated Western male.

Maybe that's what you really want; a strong father figure to control your life. Too bad if you don't because largely due to the political correctness fostered on the West by the progressives including a dominant MIA performance by Western feminists in not having the guts to take on Islam, that is what you are going to get.
Posted by cohenite, Wednesday, 21 August 2013 7:59:22 PM
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My point, cohenite, was that you were trumpeting that "there's no reason for women to wear a burqa, etc, etc....not living in the desert and all that....

The same can be said for wearing a tie - no particular use.

It's a cultural ornament.
Posted by Poirot, Wednesday, 21 August 2013 8:03:21 PM
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"It's a cultural ornament."

Of no consequence, none, innocuous, of no meaningful effect like the burqa.

You cannot bring yourself to criticise Islam can you Poirot? Astounding. The absence of any complaint from you and people like you about Islam is one of the main reasons Islam is unchecked in its progress through the world.

Instead of prevaricating answer the question about the burqa. You can't can you? By default you are a supporter of Islam.
Posted by cohenite, Wednesday, 21 August 2013 8:30:30 PM
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Then again, the tie can be seen as more than a cultural ornament.

What I meant was that it's of no inherent value as clothing.

Psychologically, I suspect it denotes power.
Posted by Poirot, Wednesday, 21 August 2013 9:14:28 PM
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Here's a link that may help:

http://www.thepunch.com.au/articles/the-truth-behind-the-burqa/
Posted by Lexi, Wednesday, 21 August 2013 10:10:08 PM
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Lexi says on the punch article which is very good:

"I’m not suggesting you have called for a ban, like Sarkozy, only making an observation that more pressure on these women is likely to result in them being prevented from participating in society. If young women today can be educated and work, so long as they wear the hijab, perhaps that’s one step towards their daughters having a genuine choice whether or not to wear it."

What do you mean by more pressure and from whom?

What I garner from the article is that fundamentalists have subverted even further a fundamentalist religion by exacerbating the already existing gender inequality in Islam.

I also think the leaders of Islam do have hegemonic ambitions; whether consciously or not, their tactics are brilliant; a combination of terrorism, passive aggressive and insistent demands for accommodation of ostensible sharia features designed to vitiate the dominance of the secular legal structure and the use of women in burqas to unsettle existing and up to the encroachment of Islam, social structures which had seen the evolution of female equality.

The point is, if wearing a burqa is a prominent symbol of a repressive religion why should there be anything but zero tolerance of it?
Posted by cohenite, Wednesday, 21 August 2013 10:31:52 PM
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Dear cohenite,

You do realise that not all Muslim women wear the burqa -
the link I provided gave a few examples or did you miss
those? What about the peculiar dress that some other religions
take part in? You've made no mention of any of them.
Do Sikh's have to wear those turbans and their hair long?
Do all Jewish men have to wear their head coverings?
And so on ...

Why pick only on the burqa?
Posted by Lexi, Thursday, 22 August 2013 4:51:48 PM
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Lexi: Why pick only on the burqa?

Because the Burka covers the entire woman in a man made & enforced prison. Yes I know women say they wear it to show their faith. Though, if they refused to wear it their husbands would kill them for bringing shame on the family. It has been stated before, by many noted Imams, that the Burka, etc, is a tribal tradition & not really part of Islamic Culture.

As for other Religions & their sometime strange to us, dogma. Yes they do wear some cultural religious garments, but, if you notice it's only the men. E.g., Turban for the Sikhs.

Some Catholic Monks wear a particular Habit but that is falling by the wayside nowadays. They wear them on specific occasions not all the time. Buddhist Monks wear their Yellow/red/orange Habit but if you look around where they are from that type of dress is normal wear, although with the Wests influence there are changes happening with the local peoples. The Buddhists Monks don't insist on everybody wearing the Habit.

If it is now so important for Muslims to wear the Burks to preserve a women's Modesty then I suggest that the men, also, must wear it as well to protect a Muslim mans modesty. In the name of equality. Don't you think?.
Posted by Jayb, Thursday, 22 August 2013 5:28:30 PM
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The burka takes away any social identity of the person, other forms of religious dress do not hide the person socially. There is no individuality and personality expressed in the burka except a state of oppression. Muslim men living in the desert do not dress in heavy black garb covering their face. The use of the burka in Australia is antisocial and offensive, the same as having a conversation with any garb that completely covers the face no matter the gender.
Posted by Josephus, Thursday, 22 August 2013 5:36:27 PM
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Cohenite
"It ignores the lack of right of Muslim women in Muslim countries NOT to wear the burqa."

You mean like the right NOT to wear a stupid yellow shirt or vest on the job if you have to actually work for a living rather than shuffling paper between coffee breaks? Oh, of course, outside is full of sweaty, dull-witted, violent men who have to be given a special warning device so they don't kill each other out of sheer stupidity. How could I have missed something so obvious? It's only down to sheer good luck that the human species didn't die out before the Book of OH&S was revealed to herald the Way to Salvation and toolbox meetings...

"You cannot interact with people who are covered from head to foot."

Why?

"No-one in their right mind would think that the burqa liberates women"

No one in their right mind would think that feminism liberates women. All it liberates is play money to spend on buying stuff that women who wear burqas don't need, like cosmetics, lots of expensive clothes and anti-depressants to cope with the constant stress.

"Symbolically the burqa represents the move within Islam for ascendency over the secular Western structure."

"Externally, Orthodox Jews can often be identified by their manner of dress and family lifestyle. Orthodox women will traditionally dress modestly by keeping most of their skin covered. Additionally, most married women will cover their hair, most commonly in the form of a scarf, also in the form of hats, bandannas, or, sometimes, wigs."

Help, help they're being oppressed...
Posted by Antiseptic, Thursday, 22 August 2013 6:24:17 PM
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http://www.youtube.com/embed/HjFSi1AZTq8

scary faith
and foolish americans
Posted by platypus1900, Sunday, 25 August 2013 1:34:08 AM
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Excellent clip platypus1900. This is the true face of Islam, not the pretense of those that accommodate them.
Posted by Josephus, Sunday, 25 August 2013 8:34:27 AM
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Democratic States in history have not lasted because of their freedoms but fallen to affluence, indifference then dependency on the State and then to strong leaders as dictators. Western society is in decline waiting for strong leaders to arise. Islam will fill that unless the West wake up to the Islamic fervor. The big melting pot of nations allows fervent believers in a cause to arise and dominate.
Posted by Josephus, Sunday, 25 August 2013 5:14:51 PM
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