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The Forum > General Discussion > Tobacco tax

Tobacco tax

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I see the proposed levy on tobacco is tipped to raise some 5.8 billion dollars.

So, assuming this is correct, big assumption, one has to wonder just how reliant our govermentS are on the revenue raised through tobacco taxes, especially given so much can be earned by such a small increase in taxes.

In other words, am i right in assumimg that without smoking taxes, we are screwed.
Posted by rehctub, Friday, 2 August 2013 1:16:32 PM
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It's an interesting problem, isn't it?

On the one hand, our government must be seen to discourage people from smoking - and making tobacco products ridiculously expensive can help to achieve that. But on the other hand, the more money they gain from the sale of tobacco, the more they rely on it.

If their intention is to discourage smoking, they need to ensure that the money is not spent on essentials. Maybe it forms the core of our aid budget; maybe to frivolous stimulus packages. If it went towards our health system, they would need to ensure that the savings in health expenditure when people quit smoking amounted to the same as the loss of revenue from people quitting.

That's the problem, I guess, with using tax as a disincentive: if the disincentive works, income decreases.
Posted by Otokonoko, Sunday, 4 August 2013 2:49:45 PM
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Yes O, it's because we no longer have any spare income.

We sell our resources cheap to overseas buyers, not to provide for our future when the resource is depleted, but just to turn the wheels.

Personally, I can't see a way out.
Posted by rehctub, Sunday, 4 August 2013 2:57:49 PM
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It is revenue raising. Alcohol is more difficult to ramp taxes up on because of the effect on the wine industry.

It will encourage more criminal gangs to move into the profitable areas of illegal recreational drugs and illegal tobacco (and mixes). That means more turf wars by bikies and others. More illegal importation of guns by gangs.

The police are already stretched. It would be smarter to put a limit on the federal tax on legal tobacco products so as not to make more previously law-abiding citizens into criminals and have them bankrolling criminal gangs through buying their products.

The federal government could reduce spending by concentrating on the fundamentals it is there to provide. It could limit its tax on tobacco. It could make the possession of 30 grams and 6 plants of marijuana legal. It is just as important to starve criminal gangs of funds. Of course the federal government does not want to kill its cash cow by allowing marijuana smoking, even if that means less smoking and reduced risk of health problems.

What the federal government is doing is picking off different sectors of society for taxes, but over time all cop higher taxes.

I don't smoke, use recreational drugs and rarely drink (like it but it does interfere with any use of vehicles). I do believe that government has long ago moved well beyond discouraging smokers and into vilifying them and trampling over their rights. Some smokers cannot stop and they should not be forced into forgoing food and other necessities to maintain their habit.
Posted by onthebeach, Sunday, 4 August 2013 4:00:41 PM
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That should be, "I don't smoke or use recreational drugs and rarely drink alcohol"....
Posted by onthebeach, Sunday, 4 August 2013 4:03:21 PM
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Yes O I agree, as to simply increase the price/tax often results in the smoker cutting back on something else, whereby the real victims are often kids.

As for legalizing drugs, I'm with you there, however I would suggest six plants is a bit over the top.

I hve smoked and used recreational drugs when I was young, however, I gave up, not because of cost, but because I chose to partially because I wanted to start a family and thought I should at least set an example.
Posted by rehctub, Sunday, 4 August 2013 4:36:34 PM
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Smoking is dead, and costs billions in smoking related diseases. They can be 50$ / pack as far as i care. The sooner it is illegal the better.
At least here we are an island and got a fair hit at illegal smoking products coming in.
Growing the stuff is just as bad, if it wasn't for people smoking the stuff you would have clothing more durable than denim.
Posted by doog, Sunday, 4 August 2013 5:03:20 PM
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How about a stupidity tax, it'd cover Rudd's black hole in no time.
Just listening to the Green necks leader waffling on about the asylum seekers & how they deserve all our help. It is nothing short of interesting to note that not once did her concerns go to our pensioners or the homeless or the economy as a whole. It was all about the asylum seekers. I must say I do prefer an australian politician be it a Red neck or a Blue neck who wants to put an end to this invasion & gives at least some thought to their own instead of giving preference to those who don't even want to be identified.
Rudd's a dudd & Abbott ? Well, he is the one whom we haven't afforded the benefit of doubt yet. Big Clive has gone quiet so I don't know what he is up to.
Posted by individual, Sunday, 4 August 2013 5:14:10 PM
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I smoke, drink and use recreational drugs, if I can’t buy them I make them. This makes me acceptable in society because I admit to it; it helps me sleep at night and defends me from reality.

It also stops those who use these but don’t admit to it, from pontificating at me from the high moral ramparts.

My strategy also acts as a bulltish filter. I can still read treasury estimates that the health cost to the nation is a net benefit. The government earns in tobacco excise, fifteen times the cost of treating smoking related disorders.

rehctub, you are spot on. As for the rest of the anti-everything lobby, mind your own bee’s wax, stay out of other peoples lives and get a freekin’ life of your own.

Ah! I feel so much better now.
Posted by spindoc, Sunday, 4 August 2013 5:49:22 PM
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onthrbeach>> It is revenue raising. Alcohol is more difficult to ramp taxes up on because of the effect on the wine industry<<

Otb, have you forgotten the Alcopop tax that Kev introduced in 2008 a year after gaining power and when he first began to run out of money. Labor bullsheisers sold it as a way of curbing teen drinking.

Latest figures reveal that it did not put a dent in the teen drinking stats, which any one with half a brain could have predicted given we are talking teens....but it has raised an extra $5 BILLION in taxes for Labor to piddle against the wall. For a "party for the battlers" Labor is worse than the Libs.

Every chance Labor gets they tax us. The “working family” and the “battler" is now paying additional taxes on power, food, fuel, alcohol and cigarettes. Labor now want to steal our super and tax our savings each time we deposit or transfer funds.

If Labor could work out a way to tax us while we slept they would.
Posted by sonofgloin, Sunday, 4 August 2013 6:39:59 PM
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Onya Spindoc...
Posted by sonofgloin, Sunday, 4 August 2013 6:42:24 PM
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sonofgloin,

It might have looked that way but I am not in favour of the high tax already on alcohol.
Posted by onthebeach, Sunday, 4 August 2013 7:24:21 PM
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Why Rechtub has Australia got a AAA credit rating.
How much is nursing smokers costing us.
Do you think smoking is a healthy practice.
Can such negativity win an election.
Posted by Belly, Monday, 5 August 2013 5:51:16 AM
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belly..australia has aaa FEDERALLY
..cause the fed keeps cutting..as gst falls
so putting up new taXES..[has put the burden onto..the then lab states..to borrow..as well as force individuals onto credit card/,minimum repayment..of course./.as the rich suiperfund stream seeks long term return

at minimum payment..it takes 25 years to repay 4000
by which time your super funds..have hopefully recieved a few cents of the 17,000 REPAID*..the fools /mug unionmists..are BORROWEINg their own super..BACK at 14-21%

but credit..they feel must be fine
ona minumum payment..that will in time steal;..twice the COMPULSORRY SUPER stolen from them..in the first place

in short it serves the banking cartel/elites..as a cashed up slushfund
and stuff the low wage slaves..

even..'super'...was only introduced..in lue of a much needed wage increase..waybbaCK WHEN POWER/energy WAS PENNIES,,[as much as giving the wealthy..another tax loophole...to tax avoid.,

the costs of smoking..RELATED*..hospitalizations is 800million!

not 30 billion..as explained many times..
that 'social/cost'..is the sum total..of the taxes we pay..cost of purchase ..even the cost of cigarette butt collecting..and burns on clothing

we have been betrayed big time..even if big-toobacco's silence
in the main be-cause the telstra based public servants super slush funding trust..

which holds many voting shares..
to nullify..big toobacco's response

much like how the bosses..took over the unions
the public service fund itself [only..lol for pub-licking servants funds]
sipping their wine tax free..
on the free lunch trough..and intime they will stop lump sum withdrawals..

but not before the big boys
get their big payoff..for betraying the mug workers

cant wait till tony kicks some public servants on-top their early retirement..[onto paid board positions.. no doubt in one of the many new* slush funds..*juliar et'al..has set up..
Posted by one under god, Monday, 5 August 2013 7:45:03 AM
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Belly,

"How much is nursing smokers costing us."

Here's an interesting article.....

http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=15313
Posted by Poirot, Monday, 5 August 2013 8:47:54 AM
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Luv ya Belly,

AAA rating eh?

Would this be the same AAA rating that Lehmann Bros, Italy, Spain, France and Ireland had just before the GFC?

The next time you try the ALP spin you have adopted, perhaps you might consider “engaging the brain before operating the keyboard”. It’s just basic OH&S Belly, you would know all about that.

It might not prevent workplace injuries but it will sure as hell stop you making such an idiot of yourself
Posted by spindoc, Monday, 5 August 2013 9:01:49 AM
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I believe Australia does have a AAA rating and is known to be one of the most economically sound countries in the world at present Spindoc, so why call Belly an idiot?
It just makes you seem more like an idiot really!

Anyone who smokes is an idiot, and the more taxes and other disincentives that can be thrown at smokers, the better.

The Government wouldn't be making so much money on tobacco taxes if they all gave up, so isn't that a good reason to give up?
Tobacco smokers cost the nation far more in health dollars than they ever raise in taxes, so make it illegal and be done with it.

And please don't go off topic and start ranting about alcohol or fast food, because I think it's a good idea to start on smokers, then move on to the rest.
We have to start somewhere...
Posted by Suseonline, Monday, 5 August 2013 9:46:01 AM
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The tax increase is revenue raising. Divide and conquer, where all get a turn sooner rather than later for a tax increase for some excuse or other.

There is no need to convince smokers of the health effects. They already know and all of those who could make the break have done so. Effort should be directed into deterring kiddy take-up. The ground that can be taken is already won and some years ago. Grants to government funded anti-smoking groups should be stopped to allow the Heath Department to take it from here.

Returning to the smokers who continue, I am satisfied that many are migrants, where the government can exercise choice if it wishes since it says that smoking costs are high, and the remainder of confirmed smokers need to be assisted in ways other than have been tried already. Many suffer stress and their sources of unresolved tension in their lives can only be addressed by voluntary, private, attendance with a trained professional for example a psychologist and under the case management of their GP. Where the government says it is concerned about eventual health costs of smoking continuation, it should be glad to pick up the psychologist fees.

It is counterproductive to ban smoking. That would immediately enlarge the drugs blackmarket and deliver thousands of ordinary law-abiding into the hands of criminals.
Posted by onthebeach, Monday, 5 August 2013 10:19:49 AM
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Hi Suseonline,

You say << I believe Australia does have a AAA rating and is known to be one of the most economically sound countries in the world at present >>

If you know something we don’t about the value of the AAA rating to Australians we would love to hear it, (I’ll give you a clue, “borrowings”), otherwise you too have the opportunity to answer the question I put to Belly.

“Would this be the same AAA rating that Lehmann Bros, Italy, Spain, France and Ireland had just before the GFC?”

In response to your comment that Australia is “known to be one of the most economically sound countries in the world at present”.

Really? Would these “other countries” to which you refer be previous owners of the much vaunted AAA rating and are now broke?

Here’s a little story for you.

Once upon a time Suseonline 1, had $94 on her credit card, she not only paid off her credit card debts but she also spent less than she earned for 10 of the 11 years (surpluses). She was so good at managing her finances she managed to save $70 for her future and saved $22 in her deposit account.

Suseonline 2 however, has spent the $22 she had in her deposit account and in just six years, dipped into her saving for her future and has put $350 on her credit card. She has never spent less than she earned and will continue this tradition for at least another four years and is forecast to run her credit card debit to at least $400. Her domestic income is shrinking, the house if full of useless “investments” that generate no income, these are a now a financial liability and now she wants to blame Suseonline 1 for her problems.

Which Suseonline would you prefer to be?
Posted by spindoc, Monday, 5 August 2013 10:40:03 AM
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Thanks Poirot.
Not going to hang around this thread much, not much logic to be seen here.
Yet no post amused me more this year than my mate spindoc,s.
Now I am no angle, that will supprise SD he thought I was.
NOTHING made me both smile and understand the bloke more than his informing us he uses drugs.
Yes him being given his true name here and place of work Menzies house, even his some times post style is clearly answered.
Please spindoc do not get the lantana mixed up with the other stuff.
Posted by Belly, Monday, 5 August 2013 6:18:28 PM
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Well, Belly....I'm not going to judge spindoc too harshly, having been known to have the odd puff (cigarette) myself in my time. Don't drink much, except maybe a wine or two on the weekend when the family gets together. I've never smoked "recreational drugs" except for twice in the seventies.

Actually, I find it fairly amusing that we have whole societies undertaking sedentary lifestyles, sitting for the most part, eating junk food (maybe they should invent a special tax for cream buns and hamburgers), and a bottleshop on every second corner (strange how we don't have pictures of liver cirrhosis and alcohol-related violence on every bottle) - and so many pontificate and look down their noses at smokers.

The strange thing is that I now a lot of people, and many of them are continually at the doctors for this or that, some are chronically afflicted with various ailments....and none of them smoke.

Weird times.
Posted by Poirot, Monday, 5 August 2013 6:44:01 PM
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If this Government had only the slightest clue how to manage than there wouldn't be a need to rip people off would there ?
Listening to this Cameron fellow last night rambling on about the GFC & the AAA ratings etc. & how the Rudd Government lead us through all that. He totally failed to mention that it was the Coalition-filled coffers that made it possible for his Government to get some of these questionable figures & now instead of full coffers we now have a huge empty hole, courtesy ALP government. The Tobacco tax is yet another immoral tactic to dig that hole deeper. The way they're going they'll need to use explosives soon to get deeper.
Posted by individual, Tuesday, 6 August 2013 6:27:50 AM
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Hi Belly,

You’re getting to be more and more like the “fun police”. Cheer up old mate, when you can’t handle a bit of fun it’s not a good look.

Attribute Number 23. Members exhibit a dramatic loss of spontaneity and sense of humor. :)
Posted by spindoc, Tuesday, 6 August 2013 11:12:58 AM
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The federal government is the major beneficiary from drug dealing in tobacco (alcohol too). One can take its mealy-mouthed concern for health as just a blind for a tax increase.

I am not suggesting that taxes should not be applied, but there should be limits to taxation and the hypocrisy of Australia's greatest drug dealer, the federal government, is contemptible.

The hypocrisy is also evident in its drug war against marijuana. One could easily imagine that its motivation is more to protect its other drug businesses, alcohol and tobacco, and to support 'Big Pharma'.

Most mornings I do home visits from a list supplied by local churches, to elderly singles in my neighborhood to give them some company over a shared cup of tea and help them get a little sunlight while watching me knock over any garden maintenance. Many suffer the most wretched pain and immobility from rheumatoid arthritis and other conditions, and loss of sleep.

While there are prescription drugs available, there are costs both financial and health, eg damage to the kidneys from the prescription drugs. I would like to see them have the option of growing and using their own marijuana. It makes so much sense, except to a government that profits from other drugs and the drug companies of course.

Government should be serving the people, not the reverse.
Posted by onthebeach, Tuesday, 6 August 2013 11:33:58 AM
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Why not introduce an asylum supporters tax ? They could pay $10/week to support their ideal.
I would pay $10/week for supporting a non-military national service. Then, after two years we can see which has more merit for the future of this country.
The Tobacco Tax is nothing more than get money to buy cigarettes for the asylum seekers in the detention centres.
Posted by individual, Wednesday, 7 August 2013 7:44:50 AM
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individual,

The government is handing out free cigarettes to asylum seekers.

Any apparent conflict with positions on tobacco taken by the federal government would be answered with, "Never you mind".

"Nek minit, compo claims from asylum seekers for tobacco linked disorders" LOL
Posted by onthebeach, Wednesday, 7 August 2013 3:57:32 PM
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OTB,
Isn't it amazing how just a little sentence based on fact silences the ALP crowd.
Posted by individual, Saturday, 10 August 2013 10:45:59 AM
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It is that scary accountability they run from.
Posted by onthebeach, Saturday, 10 August 2013 12:44:42 PM
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Accountability ?
OTB,
Why would they run from something they have no concept of ?
Posted by individual, Saturday, 10 August 2013 6:11:59 PM
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of all the vices know to man (and woman), smoking is the least harmful

a. gambling
b. hard drugs
c. adultery
d. alcohol
e. smoking

gambling can completely wreck families
hard drugs not only destroy youths...they kill eventually
adultery break up families
drunkards are too drunk to work...and abuse partners and children

smoking?
smelly...some get health problems...some die

having said all that, yes, we should continue to increase duty on tobacco

for once i think our tasmanian mates got it right
smoking ban for all children born after 1 Jan 2000.
what a brave and brilliant move.
Posted by platypus1900, Tuesday, 13 August 2013 12:32:34 PM
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