Where do these disgusting predators come from, and what imbecile let them in?

From: The Daily Telegraph
August 01, 2013 1:02PM
“THE managers of a mosque where a muslim prayer leader was charged with allegedly touching the breasts of two teenagers and a grandmother say they are "shocked" by the allegations. The man was making guest appearances as a prayer leader for the special night meetings around Ramadan and had denied the allegations against him.”

This predator allegedly assaulted three females on three separate occasions. What type of mindset allows this swine to look upon our females as sexual prey, a “dark ages” muslims.

From: The Daily Telegraph
SYDNEY, Aug 1 AAP –
“A Bangladeshi refugee who is accused of groping a blind woman's breasts on a Sydney train may have assaulted others, a court has heard. Magistrate Les Brennan, who refused bail, said it was an unusual assault.”

This predator allegedly followed and followed, then sexually assaulted a blind girl, and he got off the boat 1 MONTH AGO and was living in the community at Merrylands. What type of mindset allows this swine to look upon our females as sexual prey, a “dark ages” muslims.

Lets have your defence then....

sonofgloin, you did say the Bangladeshi man was an asylum seeker who arrived by boat. No one will deny that refugees are not capable of committing crime. Like society in general the majority of refugees are law abiding, but unfortunate a small percentage will be criminals. So these 2 incidents you post, is that justification to stop people from migrating to Australia?
If you are quoting the Murdock fish wrapper correctly, a bit of gutter journalism there, firstly referring to the accused as "This predator" that is tempered with the word "allegedly" does that imply some predators don't actually prey on anyone. Then the editorial comment at the end "What type of mindset allows this swine to look upon our females as sexual prey, a “dark ages” muslims." you forgot to add the over rider "allegedly"

Not only people that come by boat do those things, it can happen anywhere at any time by anyone.

Doog, absolutely, but there is an element in society with an axe to grind when it comes to asylum seekers. Obviously these 2 “dark ages” Muslims are guilty " allegedly". Do you honestly believe we need courts of law, when we have The Daily Telegraph" to determine guilt, don't worry about innocence if you are named in a Murdock fish wrapper, your guilty!

Of couse Paul and doog The fact that the Daily Telegraph allegedly reported on Court hearings totally discredit their truthfulness in reporting. Lets have a look at the actual court reports and we might get some truth.

Josephus,
"Police said a 16-year-old girl was approached by a man and allegedly indecently assaulted as she walked through a reserve in Dee Why on Monday." "Then yesterday, a 57-year-old woman and another 16-year-old girl were both allegedly indecently assaulted by a man on Dee Why Beach." There is no mention of the reserve or the beach, the post gives the impression that the alleged assaults took place at a mosque and that the arrest was also made at the mosque,
When others are arrested by police does Murdock's fish wrapper check to see if they are a member of say the RSL and then imply the crime took place at the RSL or approach the RSL for comment about the perpetrator, No I think not. If a person commits indecent assault does the same fish wrapper approach the persons employer for comment, I think not. In these cases the motive to "link" this behavior to Islam, at least by the poster is obvious

Paul, doog,

While it is all very PC to air brush over the crimes of a few of the illegal immigrants, it is not in dispute that a large portion of these people are young adult males from cultures where the attitudes to women are extremely backward, and they have little to no knowledge of English, nor of Australian laws and consequences.

Recently when a women was raped in Dubai and she reported it, she was convicted of having intercourse outside of marriage. In most Islamic states, rape or abuse of women is frequent and without consequence, and for the greens to pretend it does not matter is a joke.

Dear SOG,

In this beautiful country of ours, you're innocent
until proven guilty. I've read the news item in
the Daily Telegraph and there does seem to be a
bit of confusion. Incidents happened in a Reserve,
on a beach, and then in a mosque? This "alleged"
perpetrator was sent here on a tourist visa with a
group from Egypt, so he's not here permanently.
Would he really risk criminal charges and deportation
to grope women in a mosque where he's been assigned as
a prayer leader? Perhaps he would. However, perhaps
it's also best to wait a week or so and see how this
case develops before making sweeping statements and
judgements.

I wonder if "Media Watch" is looking into the reporting
of this particular story. They should be. It's accuracy
does seem a bit askew.

Have you noticed that all the media put "Allegedly" before what happened nowadays? That's because they get sued if they don't. Even if they have Vision of some kid eating an Ice Cream, they say the kid was allegedly eating an Ice Cream. It really means nothing.

Wow! I notice the all the Alleged Islamist Apologists are defending a sexual predator because he happens to be Muslim. I wonder if they would do that if the alleged Rapist was a White Anglo Saxon Male. Nah! They want him hanged even if he was proven innocent. Like I was told once by one of those rabid Feminists, “If any male is accused of Rape & he’s found innocent he should do time anyway to make up for the ones that did do it & got away with it.” End of quote.

But SM is right about backward cultures. These people come from a backwards Medieval Society & don’t know how to behave in a modern World. They want us to adapt to their Culture & Society which they say is superior to Australian, because we have a non-Theocratic Society. Fat chance.

You know SOG I am no fan of the Muslim faith.
And that I dislike the line that the *Cronulla Riot* was an act of Australian racism.
Ignoring the events stretching out years, of Racial taunting and threats against Australians on that beach.
Have you gone off too early here?
Some are saying it was a cultural miss under standing.
It may be just that, one thing for sure, no one has been convicted of any thing yet.
We should be on guard for false claims.
Like the still going around lie.
That a shop in Queensland owned by a Muslim refused to stock some thing or other named Anzac, a proven lie.
Not forgetting my being caught hook line and sinker by that photo of *brides maids with grooms*, being touted as 7 year old brides.
If we forget truth we are as bad as those we target.

I did it!
Went off too early.
Haeing read the first part about a story I was following, missed the second one.
Glad they got him, sorry he will get off with not much at all.
SOG your second point I share I have the gravest doubt we should take anyone from that part of the world in.

I comes as no surprise that when viewing or reading the crime news these days, one often requires an interpreter to understand the names of the criminals.

Anynperson, man woman or child that was not born here should be deported if convicted of any harsh crime.

If it's a minor, the parents are more than welcome to join them in my opinion.

Enough is enough as I, in my fifty plus years have gone from being able to leave my pushy at the park overnight, without fear of it being stolen, to not being sure I can venture out at night without fear of being assaulted.

It's about time the punishment fitted the crime.

Gawd you guys are hilarious,

This thread gets the cherry-pick of the year award (Bravo!)

I'm looking forward to a comprehensive run down of the cultural backgrounds of "all" the people currently before the courts.

Gonna take you a while......

Hop to it!

Lexi, I read no ambiguity in the tabloid story. The muslim prayer leader assaulted 3 females at different times in and around Dee Why. The only reference to the mosque was the spokesman from the same giving their two cents worth, like the Catholic Church has done so often re sexual predator priests.

Lexi>> However, perhaps
it's also best to wait a week or so and see how this
case develops before making sweeping statements and
judgements.<<

The rebuttal to your “sweeping statement” cloaked defense would be that 3 females, unknown to each other, lied and went to the police and identified an Arab that has been in the country for two minutes in a premeditated conspiracy. Give me a break my belle. He will get a trial….

Re the 1 MONTH AUSSIE who assaulted a blind girl. He is on CCTV footage ….that is how he was caught. He even followed her on the train from Ashfield to Sutherland and allegedly carried out another assault.

Paul1405>> Like society in general the majority of refugees are law abiding, but unfortunate a small percentage will be criminals. So these 2 incidents you post, is that justification to stop people from migrating to Australia?<<

Paul I am not a rabid racial or religion based bigot. I am a common sense bigot.
In a country of immigrants that illegally entered in convict hulks, I deny no nationality the right to emigrate here, or to take sanctioned refugees from any nation. But I expect the right to ckeck on the morality and cultural suitability of refugees for the purpose of integration.

This disgusting predator followed a blind girl. Can you imagine the moral cowardice required to take advantage of a blind girl. We do not know if the name he gave immigration is his as he threw away his documents.

Re the two incidents minimization line you proffered:
Four months ago a muslim illegal assaulted a girl at Macquarie uni.
Three months ago two illegal muslims assaulted three women at Parramatta.

One incident is too much from these fare paying, passport throwing muslims.

That’s right P, this thread is a vendetta against all but Anglo Saxons…..

If it a vendetta against anyone it is the imbeciles who believe in open boarders for fare paying, passport throwing opportunists and criminals.

Another boat today…40 odd under 30 Iranian males….poor refo’s they are not, who the hell knows who they are….that is the issue for me P.
So I will thank you for your input and output it immediately as flavour of the month trendy rhetoric …..no offense…

SOG: Another boat today…40 odd under 30 Iranian males….poor refo’s they are not, who the hell knows who they are….that is the issue for me P.

I don't know if it was this boat or another one recently but did you see the build on those guys. They looked like they were all on steroids. Bound for Bikie Gangs eventually, I think. Drug trade enforcers maybe? Maybe they were allegedly Army deserters. Who knows, with no papers. Maybe they were all allegedly Gay? Hmmm, I don't think so.

Poirot, "I'm looking forward to a comprehensive run down of the cultural backgrounds of 'all' the people currently before the courts"

What you are not saying is that in many countries it is simply not possible to prove what police know to be true because governments are wary of keeping numbers, lest it be considered 'racist'. You yourself would oppose the gathering of the data that could prove your ideological beliefs wrong.

In Ausralia, political correctness is so strong and prevalent thay police are criticised for using ethnic descriptions to apprehend violent rapists.

Notwithstanding that, there are independent authenticated government reports from various countries that do cause concern where migrants/refugees from some countries are concerned.

Just a couple of examples:

- Finland, where 21% of rapes have been committed by foreigners (aka migrants), who comprise just 2.2% of the total population; and

- Sweden. where Immigrants are four times more likely to be investigated for lethal violence and robbery than persons born in Sweden to Swedish parents.

http://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/15948/is-the-immigrant-crime-correlation-simply-explained-by-lower-wealth

One might imagine that such statistics might be of sufficient concern to the Australian government to provoke review its policies in order to protect its own citizens. Hell no! It is all "Never you mind" from the feds and lets go for a "Big Australia". There are profits in it for some and a nice warm moist feeling for the "Progressives".

otb,

".....You yourself would oppose the gathering of the data that could prove your ideological beliefs wrong."

You must try and resist the habit of imposing your assumptions regarding other people's opinions on the discussion at hand.

How does the term "immigrant" pertain to in Sweden?...which immigrants - some immigrants - all immigrants?

And does "Swedish parent" have any equivalent in Australia, where "Australian parents" represent many diverse cultural backgrounds.

We're a country of immigrants, don't you know.

Or am I supposed to assume that when you write "immigrants" in the context you did, that you actually mean "immigrants of a certain cultural and religious origin"?

Poirot - I would like to remind you of a statement you made "I take official statements on process as evidence."

Therefore if the information provided by onthebeach came from Official sources they must be EVIDENCE and therefor YOU must believe them as true according to your statement.

Shadow Minister - That Dubai situation is worse because to prove she was raped she would, by there law need 4 adult male witnesses. Talk about scales of justice.

Philip,

I wasn't questioning the veracity of his figures.

I was asking whether Australia had an equivalent measurement of what constitutes a "Swedish parent"?....and what he meant by "immigrant" (which, as you would imagine covers a wide range of possibilities)

to prove she was raped she would, by there law need 4 adult male witnesses.
Philip S,
My Pilot mates who work in Dubai tell me that if an Saudi runs into your parked car then it is your fault because if you had not been in their country he could not have driven into your car.
Not a bad Law to adopt here in Australia for our Arab invaders.

SM I am not an Islamist, in fact I am an atheist who believes all religions are bad, but support a pluralistic society. Your comment;
"large portion of these people are young adult males from cultures where the attitudes to women are extremely backward"
Something similar could be applied to say hillbilly Americans or European peasants. Attitudes have a lot to do with education and less to do with culture. Having met many well educated Muslims their attitudes are very much the same as other well educated members of society.
Jayb, we are not short on criminals in society do the names Ivan Milat,Martin Bryant and more recently, Adrian Ernest Bayley ring any alarm bells for you? I could easily make up a list of 100 such names what does it prove?
"Islamist Apologists are defending a sexual predator because he happens to be Muslim." The difference is my 3 have been convicted in a court of law, where as the "Muslim" you have found guilty has been convicted of nothing, other than by the likes of you.
"I am a common sense bigot" so said sonofgloin.
"check on the morality and cultural suitability" Naturally people must comply with the moral and cultural standards of the common sense bigot. When in power these common senses bigots soon apply their standards to the rest of society as well, weeding out the undesirable.

ring any alarm bells for you?
Paul,
1405,
Nobody here is saying that our society is not guilty of having the said criminals. What many say is that they're individuals acting on their individual instincts. The imported variety however does not have individualism as a general rule (of course they have intelligent exceptions) which is bound by a culture of religious fanaticism & not individualism.
I rather have to deal with a few isolated criminals than a whole horde of hate indoctrinated. That is the crucial difference.

Poirot,

You try to deny facts. I have read that Swedish report which comes from the Swedish Criminology institute. Everyone in Sweden has a personal identification number. Thus when a crime is committed it is easy to determine what percentage of crime is due to foreigners.
For the purposes of the report people were classified as either Swedish or non-Swedish. For the criminal to be determined as Swedish they had to be born to two parents who were each born in Sweden. All other were designated as non-Swedish. The results of the report clearly demonstrated much higher rates of crime, especially for violent crime ( in some cases more than 400% higher) than was to be expected. Also it is important to take not that the Swedish institute also corrected the statistics for demographics (such as the fact that asylum seekers tend to be younger on average) and socio-economic status yet the study clearly still demonstrated much higher rates of crime for non-Swedish people. The report also pointed out some nationalities which had still even higher rates of crime. Australia, unfortunately, due to the PC lobby, such as yourself will not collect or publish such numbers.

Since I was very young indeed I have observed that a strong indicator of bigotry is when ALL the members of a particular demographic are tarred with the same brush when one or some of their number transgress, where if the transgression is by a member (or members) of the bigot's own group, it's just 'that guy...'

It may amaze you all to know that sexism, misogyny, rape, sexual harassment, domestic violence etc etc are all alive and well in every ethnic demographic in this country, including your own.

It would do us all a lot of good to look at the way our society in general treats and marginalises women, so we can educate our young to respect women rather than remember about the existence of sexual predation only when it suits a bigoted agenda.

ozzie,

"You try to deny facts....."

Where did I deny facts?

I asked for definition of "Swedish parent" (which you have just furnished) which apparently means a parent (of any race) who was born in Sweden.

(If you bother replying, don't forget to include the passage where "I denied the facts")

jcro,

Well said.

(I'm sorry to say that if you wish to experience a goodly dose of consisitent Oz-flavoured bigotry, you've come to the right place:(

You are right of course jcro. Poirot is a good example of one. If you are not all for importing as many Muslims into Australia then she dislikes you immensely.

I’m a special breed. I’m Simple Minded Bigot. Poirot told me so. Have a closer look at what Indy said. I agree with him.

Indy: The imported variety however does not have individualism as a general rule (of course they have intelligent exceptions) which is bound by a culture of religious fanaticism & not individualism. I rather have to deal with a few isolated criminals than a whole horde of hate indoctrinated. That is the crucial difference.

Jayb likes to refer to himself as a "simple-minded bigot (who am I to argue:)

Far from actually calling Jayb a "simple-minded bigot", I do recall referring to simple-minded bigotries...and it seems Jayb recognised himself in that description.

Who'd have known?.......

Dear SOG,

We should wait until the man's court-case is heard
on Monday, 5th August 2013 before pre-judging him.
There appears to be more to the case then was
originally reported in the Daily Telegraph.
The man went around shaking hands with people and
trying to greet them - on the beaches of Dee Why.
It could well be that perhaps a misunderstanding
took place. I'm not trying to excuse the man's
behaviour, don't get me wrong. All I'm doing is
saying - let's wait until all the facts are in.
According to the man's son - his father is a good man,
and totally denies that he did anything wrong.
Lets wait and see what the court decides. He's only here
on a tourist visa and plans on returning to Egypt.

The following link provides a bit more information:

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/prayer-leader-charged-with-indecent-assault-police-20130801-2r0n3.html

poirot: Jayb likes to refer to himself as a "simple-minded bigot (who am I to argue:)

poirot, you were quite explicit. YOU called me a Simple Minded Bigot.(name calling) How convenient of you to forget.

I, merely wish to remind you of that fact when I post, after you have avoided, deflected or deliberately misconstrued someone's post, as is your habit every time.

Jayb,

Please post a link to where I explicitly "called" you a "simple-minded bigot"

As opposed to generalising about simple-minded bigots.....and you taking on the description as a personal aside.

(I'm happy to acknowledge my error if you can produce it:)

Bigotry is when ALL the members of a particular demographic are painted the same way.

Personally, I object to my comments being used to support bigotry.

It IS true that women are turned into secondary citizens by men. Men from every group; not all men from any one group. Many men don't do this.

You are not defending women by making claims like that; you are only expressing bigotry. And bigotry, like sexism, is very bad for society and certainly does require a certain simple mindedness. e.g. Them is all bad; Us is all good.

No country or community ever advanced with views like that.

Further, this country's legal system is predicated on the notion of innocence until proven guilty. We DON'T convict someone because we WANT them to be guilty; we DON't convict a whole demographic because of the actions of one individual.

Lexi, are you implying the Murdock fish wrapper, The Daily Telegraph, could be guilty of sensationalism, misleading reporting and be bias in some way? Next thing we know you will be saying Allan Jones and Piers Akerman are bias commentators who favor the conservatives. LOL"
I am a common sense bigot" so said sonofgloin. But if you want to claim the same title Jayb, feel free. Indi are you putting your hand up as well?
Poirot, here is a thought provoking and shocking statistic for you; Do you know that 127% of males under the age of 95, with a Lapplandic ancestor on their paternal grandmothers side, living in the town of Bourke are six and a half times more likely to rape a goanna under the age of six, on a Sunday afternoon than are 72 year old males with the surname Smith living in the town of Oodnadatta, its been put down to a cultural thing, very common amongst Lapplanders, no respect for goannas . I thought you would be shocked by that stat, you can check it all out at the crap-a-lot web site, if you don't have access to the internet then you can read all about it in The Daily Telegraph. LOL

jcro, "And bigotry, like sexism, is very bad for society and certainly does require a certain simple mindedness. e.g. Them is all bad; Us is all good.
No country or community ever advanced with views like that"

So you would be up in arms against the White Ribbon Campaign that labels men and boys as potential threats to women and girls and denies the truths that men are the most common victims of violence and that women also also violent and often it is their menfolk who are the victims?

Why don't women sign pledges not to harm men? But you would likely see no reason for that.

It is freedom of speech that protects, not the censorship of political correctness which is the creature of those with a secondary agenda to serve.

While most would agree that the accused should not be denied the presumption of innocence, it is censorship and the prospect of defamation suits that protect the wrongdoers against scrutiny.

jcro: we DON't convict a whole demographic because of the actions of one individual.

No we don't, but we do with the entire Middle East & anywhere there are Muslims. For that is their Custom, Tradition & they are bound to it by their Sharia Law. Are you a nice piece of filthy meat, dear?

poirot: Please post a link to where I explicitly "called" you a "simple-minded bigot"

Well I do have to admit it wasn't me personally or specifically. It was anyone who disagreed with your view on just how wonderful Muslims are & what a benefit they will be for Australia when they have Sharia Law in Australia. It was about 3 discussions ago. You did say that we were all (those that disagreed with your view)Simple Minded Bigots. I took that as you were including me as usual. That's when I started to add the Tag line. Sweetie. ;-) Just to remind you of your thing about "Name Calling." XXXOOXXXOO

Remember what Iftikhar said. Quote, "Iftikhar: We would like to confirm again that we practising Muslim believers will never ever adopt or integrate into all these "destructive and immoral values":

Like respecting Women.

I must apologise I have found out that it is OK to treat a woman like dirt. The Koran says It's a good thing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tHwATEWqslw

So whatever this guy did It's OK, they should leave him alone.

Lexi>> The man went around shaking hands with people and
trying to greet them - on the beaches of Dee Why<<

Lexi, if the man is innocent and it was simply some "cultural" mis understanding, then why this from your link.

>>Police will allege that, in two separate incidents on Wednesday afternoon, he approached a 16-year-old girl and a 57-year-old grandmother, who was pushing her grandson in a pram, and indecently assaulted them by touching their breasts along Dee Why Beach.<<

Breasts and hands are miles apart my belle.

Jayb>> They looked like they were all on steroids.<<

Yes tiger, I saw that footage....they don't look like refugees to me either.

Poirot, do you advocate the abolition of passports and identification documents for all persons on incoming international flights at all Australian Airports?

If not why not.

Immigrants that break the Law should be deported full stop. One strike and your out. It shouldn't matter which country you came from, how much money you have, or if the rest of your family is here. You break the Law you go home... if your home is too unsafe or economically inferior to your liking, have a nice life on Manus Island.

Paul you are parted from facts and reality.

Like Poirot you sit in your first world country and make judgements on Islam from your interactions with "westernized" muslims who have not yet hit critical mass. At which point a fair percentage radicalize, and the rest follow because of the repercussions of not.

I have two career nurse sisters who between them have spent 30 years working in Middle Eastern countries and they tell me that to many Middle Eastern muslims western women are "dog meat."

A phrase that I was to hear from our own Sheik Halelhi here at the Lakemba mosque years later.

As I said Paul, you are parted from reality.

Dear SOG,

Those are the charges being levied against the man.

However, the link I cited also tells us that -
the man's Sydney-based son said the incident was the
result of a misunderstanding and his father who does
not speak English is so embarrassed and distressed
by his subesequent arrest that he's almost suffered
a nervous breakdown.

It appears that the incidents arose when people on the
beach asked to have their photos taken with his father,
who was wearing exotic Egyptian Islamic dress.

The reason the elderly man also came in contact with one of the
women was because her dog started barking and gnarling at
him. It appears that the elderly man was simply trying to
who some compassion but had misunderstood the cultural
differences between Australia and Egypt.

Why are you not prepared to give the elderly man the benefit of
the doubt - and wait and see what develops in court on
Monday? Even a jury must listen to ALL the evidence being
presented before making a final judgement. Yet you're not
prepared to do that - why?

The man has not been found to have broken any law, yet.
His case will be heard in court on Monday. We should all
wait until then before making assumptions or calling for
deportations et cetera.

sbr108: Immigrants that break the Law should be deported full stop. You break the Law you go home.

Dead right mate. If they have been Naturalized then that should be taken off them as well.

Lexi: It appears that the elderly man was simply trying to who some compassion but had misunderstood the cultural differences between Australia and Egypt.

So if I grab you by the ti.. er (breast) can I claim it "OK" because it's a Cultural thing, being a Queenslander 'n all. It's how we say "Hello" in Queensland. I'll look forward for the Verdict.

Lexi: calling for deportations et cetera.

& THEN send him home to Egypt, with Headlines. I can see it now, "Egyptian man sent home, victimised for playing with raw meat."

Dear Jayb,

Great try.

Daily Telegraph>> He said the incidents arose when people on the beach asked to have their photos taken with his father, who was wearing exotic Egyptian Islamic dress.

Mr Alkahly also came into contact with one of the women because her dog started barking and gnarling at him, he said.<<

Lexi I could not imagine a more ludicrous suggestion as is before us now. Why would a senior cleric do an internationally understood taboo, such as titty groping?

Alternately I do not believe that people were lining up at Dee Why to take happy snaps of a Middle Eastern guy in back home Islamic garb. We may be at the bottom of the globe, but I don't believe an Arab in Arab garb is uncommon, unless he was dressed like a pharaoh.

Lexi it makes no sense that he would do it, but it makes no sense that two individuals could on separate occasions mistake a misplaced hand during a photo shoot for a grope, or how a dogs barking leads to an accusation of sexual assault.

Lexi If the cops charged him in this enlightened to minorities age, I reckon they have a case.

jcro, many men stopped respecting women when they pushed the equality thing down our necks.

Now while I'm the first to agree we are all equal, what many fail to accept is that we (men and women) are different.

I can remember about ten years ago holding the elivator door open for a lady, and I was quite shocked when she said to me, I was quite capable to doing that for myself.

All I can say is women are lucky that don't allow one person like that to change my way of life, as I still respect women, but many do not any longer.

It has now become a case of criminals importing criminals at our expense.

Dear SOG,

I'm glad that you see there are many discrepancies
in the case against the man. We'll have to wait and
see what develops after the court case on Monday.
BTW - Police are obliged to proceed with charges
once they have been made formally. I'm also wondering
the about these women - and their backgrounds and
what their motives may be in this case.

Anyway, lets wait and see what develops further.

Lexi,

Your comment included this excuse: " but had misunderstood the cultural
differences between Australia and Egypt."

I know no country where groping of breasts is a means of communication. Perhaps you could enlighten us as to which part of the Egyptian culture includes this?

I have no intention of discriminating against Muslims, but this use of " cultural difference" as an excuse for indecent behavior is pure bollocks and any Lexi, you should be ashamed to accept this.

The bandwagon is accumulating extra cars.

SM,

I was merely quoting what the elderly gentleman's son
was describing had happened. Apparently the elderly
gentleman was shaking hands with people as well as
apparently demonstrating "compassion" by apparently
hugging the woman with the dog. She interpreted
his actions differently. In seems that in his country
it was quite a common thing for people to hug each other
and show affection - this I take it is what the son
meant by cultural differences between our countries.
Apparently we don't go around hugging people - especially
strangers. I was not attempting to excuse this elderly
gentleman's behaviour. However, if he did anything wrong -
that has yet to be proven in the courts, and as I stated
earlier - in this country of ours you are presumed innocent
until proven guilty. That is something you Sir, should
remember - and the shame is entirely on your shoulders.
All I'm asking for is that we wait until ALL the facts are
in. That I think is a reasonable request.

If you wish to whip all of this up into a hysteria and
demonise people - that is your perogative. It does not
mean that I have to do likewise.

Cheers.

Lexi,
I agree with that, many westerners black/white/green/yellow & brindle have lost so much sense of belonging & what it is to be a person that they have become so stand-offish that any display of sincere affection is instantly interpreted as assault & hopefully getting mileage out of it. It really is a very sad indictment on the money/money/me/me generation.

Dear Indy,

Bless you for that.

individual, "..they have become so stand-offish that any display of sincere affection is instantly interpreted as assault & hopefully getting mileage out of it.. "

Also unintended negative consequences of the women's movement and the diversity-we-had-to-have.

It is much simpler in countries like Japan, which does not have the diversity-we-had-to-have, to have consensus on such matters because its culture is not under attack.

On the case being discussed it is hard to imagine the police acting if it was a simple matter of misunderstanding. Of course where advocates and defence barristers are concerned, misunderstanding can provide a lot of leeway.

However if the women on OLO would prefer more intimate closeness with strangers in the street so be it.

Although it is fair to assume from previous threads that invitation would not include sportsmen such as footballers wanting a hug or a little pat as well. Shucks no, such stranger intimacy is only acceptable within the narrow confines of multicultural understanding.

It is all about mind reading of intent by the PC empathic anointed ones.

You've convinced me Lexi. This broadening of multiculturalism may have something in it after all. These Egyptians seem to have one I could certainly adopt. Gotta try again love. ;-)

OTB: Of course where advocates and defence barristers are concerned, misunderstanding can provide a lot of leeway.

And money, don’t forget the money.

Actually this incident didn’t even get reported up here, so I really have no idea on it at all. Well all just have to wait until tomorrow.

Hi Jayb,

Remember the "Free Hugs Campaign?"

The following link may help:

http://www.freehugscampaign.org/

As the link tell us, "Free hugs is a real life
controversial story of Juan Mann. A man whose
sole mission was to reach out and hug a stranger
to brighten up their lives."

"In this age of social disconnectivity and lack of
human contact, the effect of the Free Hugs Campaign
became phenomenal."

Amongst my many ibrary duties I also run a Book-Club for
elderly citizens. I can tell you that giving someone a
hug - is always well received. As is listening,
smiling, and just general human contact and kindness.
Not everyone has a family and a smile and a kind word
always goes a long way. And it doesn't cost anything.
But what you get back is priceless. :-)

Lexi you do know that Juan Mann is an international pick pocket.

Lexi - Like the link but I notice when hugging both hands are on the others back not there tits.

Lexi,

I'm surprised that you are unable to form an opinion without a judicial verdict, and until then are prepared to swallow the son's excuse hook line and sinker.

I suppose the woman concerned is a racist simply trying to persecute this man, and she is guilty until the courts prove her innocent?

It is with alarm and trepidation I read the article Catholic Priest beheaded in Syria. Watching all the screaming crowd getting photos and close ups with their mobile phones was sickening. Alarming, because of the viscouness of the butchering of three men, Trepidation because these poor syrians will be crying out for asylum here.Check out www.liveleak.com/viewi=ead_1372329728 These people are out to harm us so what are you all doing about it? nothing, just whineing about Abbott. Well you should be whineing about the pinko leftys that are letting these barbarians in.
Cliffy

SM,

Again you're making the wrong assumptions.
I am not buying the son's story hook, line,
and sinker. What I am doing is presenting
his version of events and his explanations.
It's an occuptational habit,
to present full information so that people can
make informed decisions. All I am actually doing
is asking for us to wait until all the facts are
in before making any judgements. That to me seems
like the proper procedure that intelligent people
follow. Nobody should decide on issues until
they know all the facts of the case.

As Poirot stated earlier people should try and
resist the habit of imposing their assumptions
regarding other people's opinions on the discussion
at hand.

Re-read my posts as to what I was actually saying
and keep your prejudices and assumptions to yourself
because they are wrong.

Lexi: As Poirot stated earlier people should try and resist the habit of imposing their assumptions regarding other people's opinions on the discussion at hand.

Are you sure poirot doesn't do this. poirot dismisses everyone's facts as assumptions, then she throws in her own assumptions as fact.

Jayb,

Often your so-called "facts" turn out to be anything but.

Mustn't forget that minor detail.

: )

Hi Jayb,

I admire your patience and self-control.

I don't whether I could stay as focused and composed in the face of such hillarious comments -- like the following-- from Lexi:

<<As Poirot stated earlier people should try and
resist the habit of imposing their assumptions
regarding other people's opinions on the discussion
at hand>>

<<Re-read my posts as to what I was actually saying
and keep your prejudices and assumptions to yourself
because they are wrong>>

ROFLMAO

Lexi,

You are being disingenuous. What has "free hugs" got to do with this? You are not trying to put all the facts on the table as every comment you have made has been to find excuses for this man's behavior.

Firstly the guy "offering" free hugs gave them only to anyone that wanted. He did not hug random strangers, or that would be assault.

Secondly, the Muslim culture is far more strict than western culture with regards contact between men and women, so the "cultural" excuse is pure baloney.

My concern with all these young men coming from countries where the most anti woman versions of Islam is practiced (and where assault against women goes unpunished), and released without orientation into the community.

SM,

Free hugs were given as a response to Jayb's comments
on the disconnects between people in our society.
With which Individual also agreed. It wasn't an
excuse for that elderly gentleman's behaviour.
I can't excuse his behaviour or condemn it. The man
has not had his day in court and not all the facts
are known. Again - wrong assumptions on your part.

As for Islam, Muslims, and what their cultural practices
are - again - there are many different cultures within
the Islamic world, with many different laws, many different
languages and so on - Which particular ones are you referring
to exactly? Those practised in Indonesia, India, China,
Russia, or the various black African countries? And no,
I am not making "excuses." I am actually stating facts.
Do your research on the subject. Prof. A. Saeed has written
many books on the subject that will set the record straight
for you.

Your concern for the women in this country is admirable.
However, it would be even more admirable if it wasn't so
selective.

Dear SPQR,

Feel free to actually add something to the discussion at
hand. This thread is not about me - flattering as your
attention is.

Lerxi>> The manv has not had his day in court and not all the facts
are known.<<

He had his day this morning my Baltic belle. He pleaded guilty to all charges and a further report is that the cops have other charges pending.

Lexi>> Dear SPQR,
- flattering as your
attention is.<<

Lexi, it is your sense of humour and personality that attracts me, so why should not SPQR be so smitten?

Lexi,

While I apologize for taking your comment out of context, I find you equally guilty with regards about my "selective" concern for women. Perhaps you find assaulting women acceptable?

As for the diversity of Islamic culture you put up as a smoke screen, while there are shades of diversity, a man hugging unknown and unwilling woman goes so far against the core teachings of modesty, that the chances of this being acceptable is unbelievable

Cliffy>> It is with alarm and trepidation I read the article Catholic Priest beheaded in Syria. Watching all the screaming crowd getting photos and close ups with their mobile phones was sickening<<

Gday Cliffy....In real terms on this forum the non muslim, Islam defending Caucasians, do not have a clue about the mindset of tribal muslims. I have been to but not resided in the Middle East, but as I mentioned recently, I have two sisters, who are nursing sisters, that lived there for decades. I received a social bibliography from them, and we don’t want numbers of them here.

For whatever reason there is a social engineering protocol being carried out in the first world, I would surmise it is a divide and conquer thing. They want to destroy the homogeneity of the first world.

poirot: Often your so-called "facts" turn out to be anything but.

What a load of old Codswallop poirot. The only fact you have pulled me up on was a report on Climate Change done about 100 years ago & it turned out that we both misinterpreted it. Mine was a genuine mistake of not having the whole report at the time but yours was deliberate.

Any other facts I present you refuse to acknowledge because you know I'm right when I present you with those fact. We all know when we are right because you refuse to acknowledge them & go into a tirade of deflection..

Sonofgloin: He had his day this morning my Baltic belle. He pleaded guilty to all charges and a further report is that the cops have other charges pending.

Well there you have it. I haven’t seen the actual results as yet, but I’ll take SOG word for it at this point. Do we have any staunch defenders of this poor misunderstood Muslim person; Lexi, poirot, csteel, anyone?

Oh yeah, Jayb, you're always making statements and then having to backtrack.

Happens quite regularly.

Why only the other day you vehemently and assuredly accused me of "explicitly" calling "you" a "simple-minded bigot"...and when I asked you to produce the evidence, you had to admit that my reference to simple-minded bigots was a generalisation - one which you took on board and personalised to your own satisfaction.

Phooey!

I think that this basically nails it.

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/prayer-leader-pleads-guilty-to-groping-girls-grandmother-in-dee-why-20130805-2r92g.html

Person from Sexually oppressed society (what we are getting boat loads of except very sexually oppressed) let loose in a none oppressed society = potential trouble.

Just give it time other countries have experienced this and want the clock turned back.

Lexi

Since you have so kindly invite me to comment, I will.

And my comment is particularly relevant to two core issues here:
1) Abuse by religious authorities/prayer leaders(also known as sheiks)
2) And selective concern for women

While we have been hearing 24/7 about abuse by Christian religious authorities in the West (and rightly so). A bigger badder abuse has been going on in the Middle East and has received little to no comment. And, that is the abuse of Asian & African domestic workers --*across*-- the Middle East.

Exhibit 1
"A HORRIFYING claim that the bodies of around 40 Sri Lankan housemaids are returned each month from Saudi Arabia after they died of unnatural causes is contained in a report in the Sri Lankan Guardian."
http://freethinker.co.uk/2013/03/20/sri-lankan-report-claims-that-around-40-young-housemaids-die-each-month-in-saudi-arabia/

Exhibit 2
" TV celebrity and Arab Sheikh, Fayhan al-Ghamdi in Saudi Arabia...tortured his own 5-year old daughter to death with rods, cables and raping her so hard her rectum split open? She spent months in coma until she died in October 2012.He was not sentenced for her death but was merely ordered to pay bloodlibel.

But what happens if you are a foreign maid, often subject to physical and sexual assault, entrapped as a human slave working in a Saudi household? You of course meet the full extent of Sharia law. Furthermore, the child was more likely killed by her own father with the blame put on the maid. Although media tend to always distort a case to lean towards sympathy for the Saudi, even this article admits that a Sri Lankan maid who was executed in January 2013 claimed she had to confess under duress (torture). Too late now to give her justice."
http://themuslimissue.wordpress.com/2013/02/20/while-saudi-cleric-child-torturer-walks-free-saudis-demand-death-penalty-for-foreign-maid/

Lexi (cont)
But *most people* in the West have not heard of this. And I can excuse *most* news sources for not covering it because they have been soooo browbeaten, sooo often, about about "Islamophobia" that they dare not comment on such things.

However, it is very hard to excuse, you Lexi. You OLO's alternate news & views source, who has made a name for herself on OLO by seeking out the little covered news and views --you told us nothing about this!

And, it is also hard to excuse that fearless crusader for female emancipation Germaine Greer who when presented with the opportunity to speak-out about the plight of women in the Middle East on Q&A shied away and was silent.

Selectivity indeed --shame, shame, shame.

Poirot>> phooey <<

P,I really enjoy your exclamations, I can hear it coming out of your mouth as you take in the verbiage.....phooey....lol

Dear SPQR,

Actually I have covered many of the various problems
encountered by women throughout the globe. Much of it
being hard to comprehend that these things could
happen in our own times.
I've drawn attention to relevant reading material at the
time, ranging from -
the internationally renowed author Ayaan Hirsi Ali
of her astonishing life story
"The Caged Virgin: A Muslim Woman's Cry for Reason,"
and also the famous - "Infidel." Then there was the
international bestseller, "La Prisonniere: twenty years
in a desert goal," by Malika Oufkir and Michele Fitoussi,
the heart-rendering account of resilience in the face of
extreme deprivation with which one family faced their
tormented fate. That's just to name a few references
that I thought were worth telling people about.

I don't see my job as telling people what to think. But
when I can, I do try to pass on relevant information -
and then it's up to them.

Dear Shadow Minister,

Aren't you pleased now that the facts have come out in
court? You should be. And all you had to do was wait
and not be judge and jury.

Lexi: Aren't you pleased now that the facts have come out in court?

yes we are & I'm sure we all now feel vindicated our assessment. Now poirot & others of her ilk will now claim that this is an isolated incident committed by one person. My question is. How many of these isolated incidences does it take for some people to wake up. This is a Middle Eastern Custom that Australia can do without in it's quest for Multiculturalism. Or is it one we should embrace. Personally I think we could do without this one & the people who bring this culture with them.

poirot: Oh yeah, Jayb, you're always making statements and then having to backtrack. Happens quite regularly.

It only happened once & we both had too. Every time you are proved wrong you divert, that's how we know you have admitted you were wrong.

Happens with irritating regularity, eh.

Lets add another one to the list, Mr Houssam Khaled El-Ali, 43yo operated a shop west of Sydney when he allegedly molested five girls aged from 12 to their mid teens from 2004 and 2008.

http://au.news.yahoo.com/latest/a/-/latest/18369521/tobacconist-gave-cigs-to-girls-for-sex/

This isn't a newly imported one, not sure how long he has been in Australia, but deportation would be a good thing if convicted after a good jail sentence.

Some people from some cultures just do not fit in BUT regrettably by the time we find out the damage has already been done.

Philip S,

The most amazing thing is that people of European heritage are physically and psychologically incapable of committing crimes...strange, but true.

So aside from a few dodgy Muslim imports, it's all peaches and cream in OZ.

...........

Jayb,

Who could forget this.

"A mate just sent this to me.

IN MT WARREN PARK SHOPPING CENTRE, (QLD) NO ANZAC BADGES WERE ALLOWED TO BE SOLD, BECAUSE THE OWNER OF THE COMPLEX IS FROM THE MIDDLE EAST, AND REFUSED PERMISSION , COLES (BI Lo ) PUT UP A BIG FIGHT BUT HE OWNS THE LAND AND THE BUILDINGS AND HAD COMPLETE CONTROL OVER THE BUSINESS PEOPLE RENTING FROM HIM.

Is this what you Islamist supporters want for Australia?

Posted by Jayb, Tuesday, 9 October 2012 7:25:49 PM"

(Totally false, of course:)

Regarding my so-called "diversions". You guys must think I'm stupid if you think I'm going to dance with the strawmen you so laboriously construct.

Because I have the brains and dexterity not to get sucked into your game plan, you all get huffy and frustrated.

Oh well......

Poirot - To quote you "So aside from a few dodgy Muslim imports"

A few equals two or three, lets analyze one incident the Nauru riots that caused $60 million dollars damage number of refugees on the Island 550 number of refugees not involved 10 number of refugees in police custody 129, personally I call that pretty bad percentage of degenerates.

As you imply there are good and bad in every society, but all I see coming are mostly the lowest of the low.

It would not surprise me one bit If Iran are doing what Cuba did years ago they emptied the jails and mental asylums and put them on boats to America.

Lexi,

Yes I am glad that the Muslim cleric, like I, realized that the evidence was overwhelming. I am also glad that I have a brain, and can make my own rational decisions, I guess that you can too, but only use it selectively.

Perhaps in Egypt it is culturally OK to molest women. The huge No of rapes in Egypt show that maybe this is a sport in Islamic countries, and how morally strong the religion is.

poirot: IN MT WARREN PARK SHOPPING CENTRE, (QLD) NO ANZAC BADGES WERE ALLOWED TO BE SOLD, BECAUSE THE OWNER OF THE COMPLEX IS FROM THE MIDDLE EAST, AND REFUSED PERMISSION , COLES (BI Lo ) PUT UP A BIG FIGHT BUT HE OWNS THE LAND AND THE BUILDINGS AND HAD COMPLETE CONTROL OVER THE BUSINESS PEOPLE RENTING FROM HIM.

Yes poirot, I personally went to the Mt Warren Shopping Centre & spoke to Management about this email. Then I reported back here that the story was false. Mt Warren is about 20 minutes drive from where I live. I pass it when I go to Brisbane sometimes.

poirot: Regarding my so-called "diversions". You guys must think I'm stupid if you think I'm going to dance with the straw men you so laboriously construct.

We don't construct anything. Just feed you true facts.

poirot: Because I have the brains and dexterity not to get sucked into your game plan, you all get huffy and frustrated.

If brains were electricity you wouldn't turn on a LED (.6V) you don't answer because you know our fact are correct & you have no answer. Dexterity, code for Divert, avoid, duck & weave. Have a nice day; try not ta get ya knickers in a twist. :-)

This Egyptian guy has more charges to face yet. I don't think hell be getting a plane back to Egypt anytime soon. I guess he'll now be an over stayer, in jail for a few years.

Jayb,

You don't feed me true facts.

For the most part you feed me opinion with a few "cherry-picked" facts to support it.

Using the above as a case in point. I do recall you searched out the truth about the MT Warren shopping centre....only after doubt was thrown on the veracity of that oft repeated load of old cobblers you first posted.

You acted after I posted this:

"I've just googled the appropriate words and noticed that all the pages listed came up written exactly like yours - shouting in upper case - about the issue...as if trying to whip up a bit of hysteria"

Perhaps you should have contacted the centre before you posted it in the first place.

So when you say: "....you don't answer because you know our fact are correct...."

That doesn't appear to be the case from the example above.

jay,
You have high expectations.

I don't think the penalties will be very high. With all the bare breasts around beaches these days, breasts would not be considered very sexual.

Don't forget the magistrate will give much weight to 'cultural considerations'.

poirot: For the most part you feed me opinion with a few "cherry-picked" facts to support it.

Of course poirot. I give you an opinion based on those facts which you now admit are correct. I believe, going by the above sentence. Thank you.

Poirot: You acted after I posted this:

I did check it out when I had the first opportunity. I'm retired so I don't go to Brisbane very often.

Poirot: That doesn't appear to be the case from the example above.

Well no one is perfect. One or two hiccups which get corrected as soon as possible. That doesn't over ride the fact that most of the evidence I present to you are from the so called "peaceful people" themselves. As you say "Cherry-picked Facts," which you now admit are true facts. People like Chaudory, Abu Imam & Iftikhar. Champions of Moderate Islam.

Jayb,

I was actually quite impressed that you did seek out the truth of the Mt Warren story.

As I said, if you'd had any doubts as to its veracity, perhaps you should have held off posting that bit from your mate.

I tend to respond in kind.

So when you say things like

"If brains were electricity you wouldn't turn on a LED (.6V)...."

Well......

(Cherry-picking "facts" is practiced to skew actualities not to present a true picture)

SM,

To you the evidence was overwhelming.
I believe you when you tell me that.
To me it wasn't, because none of it made
any logical sense and I preferred to wait until
we knew all of the facts. You didn't. As I stated
earlier, that is your perogative.

As for selectivity in our judgements?

You
have consistently displayed selectivity on
this forum. Your track records has been there
for all to see.

Inevitably all of us will be guilty of
some measure of bias - the tendency, often
unconscious, to interpret facts according to one's
own values. This problem is quite common -
but it becomes particularly acute in issues whose
subject matter involves issues of deep human and
moral concern.

How can this problem be resolved?

The first step is to recognise that subjectivity and
objectivity are not two neat and separate categories,
they are really matters of degree. By exercising
scrupulous caution we can attempt to be as objective
as possible. This caution involves a deliberate effort
to be conscious of one's own biases so that they can be
kept out of the process of interpretation.

That is precisely why I have tried to suggest that we
all wait until all the evidence is presented in court.
We should all try to be intellectually honest - and
attempt to be aware of our own values and not allow these
values to distort things. We need to hunt down all the
relevant facts and not ignore those that are inconvenient
for our pet theories. The suppression or the misuse
of knowledge as you well know is extremely common - especially
in the political arena.

Cheers.

poirot: (Cherry-picking "facts" is practiced to skew actualities not to present a true picture)

Well I don't actually have to cherry pick. The facts are given as presented by the very people themselves. The Facts are over whelming in favour of keeping Muslims out of Australia for the safety of future Australians. This is a terrible Medieval Religion that does not belong in any modern society let alone Australia.

You refuse to even look at any evidence presented to you. You say so yourself. So you cannot, in all honesty, give a balanced reply. You can only divert, avoid, duck & weave or anything in order to not answer any of the facts as presented. That's what you call debate?

I think you are right Banjo. They'll just give this guy a nice talking to & send him home to avoid any diplomatic fallout. It's not right, but, we'll see.

Yada, yada, yada, Jayb.

You guys can't suck me in with your fascinating cherry-picks so you come out with (what is becoming "hackneyed") line that I divert.

When you start listing the absolute "myriad" crimes occasioned by non-Muslims, then you'll have a case worth responding to.

When you balance your natty list of Muslim crimes with individual stories of Muslims enhancing their communities, then you'll find that I listen.

These threads are full to the brim of biased cherry-picks, designed to fuel the hysteria abounding around here.

Not surprising.......at all.

Lexi,

To function as a human being, you make decisions based on the information available. Criminal cases require proof beyond reasonable doubt, Civil courts require reasonable evidence, and day to day decisions "sufficient" evidence. Waiting to get ALL the facts before making a decision generally means never making a decision. Given some of the bold assertions you have made on the flimsiest evidence, your logic is definitely subjective. While I never claimed to be completely unbiased, I at least require sufficient information before I make an assertion.

The reality is that this pervert cleric, had three separate claims of similar indecent acts against him by 3 unrelated women, and the chances of all three fabricating this were close to zero. If logically you could not join the dots, I pity you.

P,

That all ethnic groups commit crimes is not an excuse to whitewash one particular group that is particularly prone. That school teachers have abused children, does not give priests a get out of jail card.

SM,

Nor does it give credence to categorising all teachers or all priests as abusers.

Which is what this thread was set up for, to associate the crimes of a few with a whole culture.

SM,

That was the entire problem in this case.
There wasn't enough information made available.
And as we all know, the tabloid - Daily Telegraph's
reputation is based on distortion.

As for "connecting the dots?" I like this quote given
by Steve Jobs, Chief Executive Officer and Co-Founder
of Apple Computer and Pixar in his speech to the
graduates of Stanford University in 2005:

"You can't connect the dots looking forwards;
You can only connect them looking backwards.
So you have to trust that the dots will somehow connect
in your future. You have to trust in something ...
Your gut, destiny, life, karma, whatever. This approach
has never let me down and it has made all the difference
in my life."

You connect the dots your way.
I'll connect the dots my way.

Cheers.

Poirot>> Which is what this thread was set up for, to associate the crimes of a few with a whole culture.<<

Poppycock…… P.

I wrote the thread fuelled by the indignation of finding a blind girl had been sexually molested by an illegal arrival with less than a month’s tenure here, and we do not even know his real name or date of birth. How ludicrous is that?

The premise there is what imbeciles let them into the community. Further to that the chardonnay quaffing Labor acolytes and the Hemp dress wearing Greens have semen on their hands over this act, but do they acknowledge it as an issue……no, they defend the rights of the perpetrator. Wipe your hands P they are dripping.

If it were a Caucasian predator I would have written a thread demanding that the gutless predator should receive the maximum penalty given the cowardice involved in the crime and gone on to bag the week kneed judiciary.

As to the muslim holy man, he examples further that our women are looked upon as less than human, the Germans called it “untermensch” .
You can be touched, handled, and sexually assaulted because muslims deem themselves morally superior because of their religion.

The premise being that whether an interloper or a holy muslim on a tourist visa you chicks are dog meat to them. They are not here to assimilate they are here to take advantage of the “haven’t got the foggiest “ first world social crusaders.

Poiriot , the problem is the religion. The bible has proverbs such as:
If your eye offends you, pluck it out.
An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth.

Christians and Jews reconsidered the appropriateness of many proverbs as technology changed the way we live.
But there is a huge slice of Islam that believe and follow such absurdities to the letter regardless of how technologically advanced they are.

Somewhere in the Middle East or Pakistan last week a woman was stoned to death and the gathered crowds went back to watch their satellite TV’s after the event.......

Lexi,

As for connecting the dots, I was not asking for you to predict future trends, only make a decision based on past events. And we don't know that the telegraph is based on distortion. While you might not like the opinion pieces, the facts reported are independently checked unlike the left whinge blogs you rely on to confirm your prejudices.

As for being sufficient information, it was enough for the police to arrest him, and for me to once again to make accurate commentary. I wonder how you even manage to get dressed in the morning without enough information to chose your clothes.

SM: I wonder how you even manage to get dressed in the morning without enough information to choose your clothes.

That's not just Lexi. My wife (65) has to get up an hour earlier than me just to figure out what to wear that day & she not even going out, then it's all wrong anyway. ;-)

Poirot: associate the crimes of a few with a whole culture.

The problem isn't the individual. The individual, or most people as individuals, are fine. It'sthe Islamic Mass that is the problem. They have the Group mentality of Lemmings. (See anywhere in the Middle East) Moving to any Western Country will not improve their lot because they drag their ancient Belief System with them wherever they go. (See Europe) That ancient Belief System is a danger to everybody, even themselves.

Does Australia want or need this dangerous & cruel Belief System. NO!

SM,

We've had the MSM discussion many times in the past
and I fully understand your preference for the tabloid
press. It supports your political leanings. Unless news
has not gone down the colon of the MSM - you simply
will not accept it. We get that. However, I wonder
whether once
Rupert Murdoch decides to stop supporting Mr Abbott -
which he may well do as he has done in the past with
other politicians - it will be interesting to see
whether your opinions will change.

You must resist the habit of trying to place your spin
onto other people's opinions. I shall again try to make
things clear for you - that a democracy requires its
citizens to make informed choices and if the citizens
are denied access to the information they need to make
these choices, or if they are given false or misleading
information, the democratice process becomes a sham.
In this case not enough information was given by the
Daily Telegraph and all I suggested was that we wait
until the case was heard in court. You seem to take
this as some sort of weakness on my part. Even
unsulting me personally. That is no way for an intelligent
adult to behave.

Hi Jayb,

I imagine your wife is one great lady.
I suspect she's got great taste. Quality was the obsesson
of my father. His belief in dressing up both the mind and
the body is something I wholeheartedly share. I love
dressing up, even as a child. I used to dream of unashamed
extravagance - Dior couture, a Valentino ballgown;
a witty velvet slipper, designer fragrance, a slip of silk,
small exquisite pieces that are the lynch pins of style
and can change your mood. It's all fantasy - and it was great.
Today, I'm more casual, and a jeans girl. But the fantasy
still lingers and does come out at appropriate times. Dressing
up is still something I do enjoy. There you go.

Lexi: I imagine your wife is one great lady. I suspect she's got great taste.

Yeah? She picked me, didn't she? She has all the good luck & I have all the bad luck. As I say, she won me & I won her. ;-) She is. :-)

Actually I was talking about her yard clothes, going out is another matter & she's always out. She has never worn makeup either, so she still looks very good for her age. I've got a sister that's dresses to the nines, false boobs & clogs her face with Quilpie Doll makeup. (Latte Set) She looks terrible & she's 10 years younger than me.

Lexi: if the citizens are denied access to the information they need to make these choices, or if they are given false or misleading
Information, the democratic process becomes a sham.

That exactly why it is a Sham. That's why we need people like Asange & Snowden. Politicians on all side continually feed the people with crap that suits their own agenda. I understand you're still young & if you are still naive enough to believe everything they say or even half what they say I can't help you. Papers are like Lawyers, they are in the business of making money. They'll do anything to create a headline that'll sell papers. The world goes around because of all the Spin.

Someone said, "Stop the World. I want to get off." Well I did. I don't believe any off them any more.

Old saying, Believe none of what you read & only half of what you see. Check it out yourself from independent sources.

Dear Jayb,

Thanks for that - and I'm glad that you don't
disapprove of Independent media sources.
Eventually, the truth does come out.

Lexi,

With the disappearance of broadsheet papers, everything is now in the "tabloid" format, including the SMH, the age etc, so the use of the term Tabloid is a redundancy.

The biggest differences between the mainstream media and the fringe blogs are:

The MSM report the news and do investigations. The Blogs almost exclusively produce what can be loosely described as fact free opinion pieces. That is no way for an intelligent adult to behave.

The MSM employ independent fact checkers for every article, and require more than one source for information before publishing. While because of the short time, the very occasional error slips through, The Blogs have no checking process, and are hugely error prone.

The MSM has codes of conduct to which they are held, again the Blogs have none.

All the MSM papers have articles from a broad spectrum of political views, the Blogs such as NM and IA are of one very narrow political stripe.

I do read the blogs, and do find the odd nugget of interest, I prefer not to take the word of say a retired social science teacher on nuclear energy, or any other of the no bodies that frequent these blogs. Obviously you don't value your integrity so highly.

lexi - Here is a link regarding Rupert Murdoch and his control, he is loosing million on them on his newspapers but the power it gives him is enormous.

http://theconversation.com/murdoch-and-his-influence-on-australian-political-life-16752

SM: The MSM report the news and do investigations.

While I do agree with you on this point they really do spin a story towards a certain Bias that will sell papers, or have a story to negate it on the same page. E.g. They will have a good story about a lone father bringing up 4 young girls as a headline. Then two stories on the same page will be about men mistreating their children & another about a rapist in a park. Another will be in Large bold type, ""1% of aged drivers are a menace on the road" Call for all aged drivers to be tested." What about the 99% of good aged drivers?

So you see the media does manipulate (spin) facts to sell papers & create false impressions.

SM,

New Matilda actually has contributing authors who
are experts in their fields and who always cite
their references and do their research. People
along the likes of Barrister Julian Burnside,
Middle-East expert and well-known author,
Antony Loewenstein,
to name just two from a long list. And comments from
a wide variety of readers are both encouraged and
published. However, as I stated to you in the past -
we have covered this ground many times.
Each of us will continue to connect our dots in
our own way.

Dear Philip S.,

Thanks for the link.
It's much appreciated.

Dear Jayb,

Thank You.

Many of the authors that I read in alternative media -
have all been (and many still are)
contributors to this Forum. I'm sure that Graham Young
would not lend his support to anyone he considered
unreputable. As I've stated in the past - the MSM
in this country is notoriously narrow, expressing the
same (often strident) predictable views.
We need to have a variety of
sources - in order to make informed choices.

Lexi - I don't want your appreciation but thanks, I want to know did you learn something from it or did it change your perceptions on media a bit?

Dear Philip,

The link merely confirmed my views.
That's why my appreciation.
Rupert is certainly a force to be
reckoned with.

Jayb,

The Australian is made up from authors of all political stripes, and all write stories as they see them. The conflicting messages are from journalists looking at different life stories from different angles.

A recent survey on political views held by journalists within Newscorp found that roughly 40% were coalition supporters, 20% greens and 40% labor, which is a pretty representative spread. The ABC was only about 15% coalition, and the hackneyed blogs like NM and IA have no conservative journalists whatsoever.

So whenever the question of balanced reporting is raised, Newscorp is by far superior to any other rag, even when Rupert gets involved.

Burnside and Loewenstein that Lexi cites as experts, are self confessed activists, and while better versed than most, are not experts. The rest are ex teachers etc.

Singing the praises of The Australian is commendable.
Though it's not to everyone's taste.
However attempting to downgrade independent media
sources like New Matilda, is not.

New Matilda publishes around 20 articles per week covering
Australian politics, business, consumerism, civil society,
international affiars, media and culture. It includes
political cartoons by well known cartoonists like Fiona
Katauskas, Lindsay Foyle, and has articles by international
and Australian writers. It's regular contributors have
established reputations in their fields of expertise.

Still, if the world consisted simply of some self-evident
reality that everyone perceived in exactl the same way,
there might be no disagreement among observers.

The truth of the matter is that how we perceive things is
not determined by what exists "out there." It is shaped
by what our past experience has prepared us to see and by
what we consciously or unconsciously want to see.
Knowledge and belief do not exist in a vacuum; they are
social products whose content depends on the context in
which they are produced. A fundamentalist preacher will
tend to view pornography in one way; the owner of a
stri-club in another way. Each will be inclined to
perceive facts selectively and to interpret them
accordingly.

Now, now, Lexi......

One must question Murdoch's little stable of bipartisan media outlets.

After all, Fox News in the US actually has the motto "Fair and Balanced".

A bit like East Germany was officially titled "The German Democratic Republic".

I notice the complete lack of any left whinger complaining in 2007 when Rupert Murdoch was actively campaigning for Rudd. At this point he felt that Labor could do a good job.

6 years of disastrous policy stuff ups, incompetence and debt has obviously changed his mind, and suddenly he is the bogey man. Then Lexi and Poirot feel the need to retreat apologist blogs like NM or IA that keep putting out the party line, that debt isn't bad, the pacific solution didn;t stop the boats, and that the 100 000% increase is just a huge co incidence, that Thomson is innocent, and there is just a huge conspiracy against him, etc, etc.

Re: << New Matilda>>

Would anyone who thinks that New Matilda is “independent”, as in not one-eyed, please link us to any article it has run which argued that the "asylum seekers" who land on our shares mighn't be anything other than innocent little lambs?

Re: <<the Murdoch press>>

Anyone who believes the Murdoch press universally favours the conservative side needs to nave a look its MX the free newspaper handed to commuters in the larger cities. It is in what it chooses to cover, who it chooses to write its guest columns (I think there all New Matilda appointees), and in its letters very left-leaning.

SM,

You must resist the habit of telling lies.
New Matilda did nothing of the sort that
you attribute to them. They actually
did present quite balanced view-points -
however that's not something you would be
familiar with so naturally you wouldn't
recognise it. Besides, you don't read it
so how would you even know.

SPQR,

The right to read MSM is trumped by the right
to get access to genuine information without
a political agenda - thus access to independent media
is a must.

Dear Poirot,

I like your reference to East Germany.
It reminds me of all the underground newspapers that
kept the people informed during those difficult
times both there and in the Soviet Union.
While the so-called - MSM there kept on dishing out its
usual propaganda.

Lexi,

Comparing Australian newspapers with the 'MSM' in the Soviet Union and East Germany would doubtless win you a prize for stacking bulls[bleep] to a new record height.

Inevitable where the diversions from the OP have piled up thick and fast.

BTT

Lexi,

I'm sure onthebeach "meant" to include Shadow Minister in his BTT call.

(it's kinda intersting that BTT and accusations of diversion are employed selectively by a few around here to chide some posters - and not others - who have been engaging in similar off topic conversation)

Lexi,

I have never told lies, unlike the blogs to which you cling so desperately. I suggest you read the letter of what I said, not what you think I said.

It is interesting that as soon as Labor is in power, and the press starts uncovering their stuff ups, suddenly labor claims that they are telling lies, but somehow are never able to pinpoint any.

The NM and IA are certainly not the place to get "access to genuine information without a political agenda" What you will get is a political agenda very sketchy on facts.

SM,

We will never agree on this.
Reading the articles of people like Antony Loewenstein,
Julian Burnside, Ian Macauley, Margot Kingston,
have showed me the possibilities of corageous and
campaigning journalism. If only more journalists shared
their belief. Still we all realise that there is a price to
pay for speaking uncomfortable truths. So I shall repeat -
you connect your dots your way, and I shall do it my way.

Cheers.

Uncomfortable truths eh?
Has anyone ever wondered if the lack of sympathy shown by both men and women toward the current wave of colonists from Sri Lanka and Afghanistan stems from the fact that these colonists are almost all Men?
Australians still see men as disposable and of no intrinsic value to society, a man in distress is seen as weak and is treated with contempt by both Australian men and women.
All this hand wringing over women and children getting onto boats is being used as a distraction to cover up the real picture of the passengers on the colonial transports. I don't know what percentage of the colonists are Men, can anyone here give us some facts and figures?
I bet if the true demographic breakdown of the colonial transportees were to be made public any support they might have now would evaporate immediately.
I put forward the suggestion that the only thing keeping this issue alive is the misrepresentation of the gender of the transportees by the MSM and refugee advocates.

Lexi,

There we have it, you just admitted that the authors of NM write "campaigning journalism" which makes a complete lie of your claim that this is a source of information free from a political agenda

SM,

Talking about campaigning journalism...

Have you seen the front-page headlines recently of the
Daily Telegraph - "This Mob has got to do?" or words to that effect.
In big block letters. Pot, kettle...

cont'd ...

SM,

The Daily Telegraph front page headline (I've just looked it up)
actually stated, "KICK THIS MOB OUT."
Mr Murdoch isn't campaigning or biased - No.
That's MSM in its element!
At least New Matilda does maintain a balance with articles
like:

"Why Andrew Bolt is not an imbecile." ;-)

Here's an interesting and related story.

A Swiss town sought to implement apartheid-like restrictions on the movements of asylum-seekers within its precincts. It has since pulled back on that, saying it will now "ask" asylum seekers to keep out of certain areas instead of forcing them to.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2002/dec/19/andrewosborn

We live in interesting times.

Poirot has trawled the Net to find a 2002 article from the Guardian with an emotive word from a group supporting illegal immigrants.

What Poirot isn't commenting on is why the Swiss people are afraid of the illegal immigrants moving freely amongst them. After all, the Swiss are very welcoming to tourists.

Given well-documented government reports from of European countries concerning the rise in crimes and load on welfare from immigrants it would not be surprising if the Swiss had also noted an increase in crime. Poirot knows that very well from evidence put to her/him previously.

Here is another recent report which reminds of the ethnic bikie drug gangs in Australia and their violent tuft wars and shootings,

"Inter-gang turf wars, in particular between various immigrant gangs and biker groups, have been going on in Denmark since 2008"
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/denmark-biker-gangs-raided-murder-police-160830465.html#q0svQkH

What Poirot also doesn't say is that advocates for illegals blackmailed the Swiss into change because the courts would have been overloaded with appeals paid for by the Swiss taxpayer and the authorities did not want to risk a precedent being set. To be blunt they would have played the discrimination card. Nice to use those provisions to the detriment of the safety and to over-turn the democratic decisions of law-abiding citizens.

Actually, otb, I must apologise for the 2002 article (I didn't check the date)

Far from trawling the net, I happened upon this article linked to on twitter:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/swiss-introduce-apartheidlike-restrictions-local-authorities-ban-asylum-seekers-from-public-places-8750765.html

...and I thought the other article must be a follow on.

The above article is dated 7 Aug 2013

(Silly me - I was endeavouring to find more on the story and to confirm it wasn't a beat-up.....perhaps I should have stuck with original linked article to start with....live and learn)

@Lexi,

<<The Daily Telegraph (is bias) yada yada yada >>

It is highly amusing to hear someone who has just (in a Big type confessional) told us her main sources were:<< Antony Loewenstein,Julian Burnside, Ian Macauley, Margot Kingston>> whine about someones else's bias --but I guess we get all types here.

The Telegraph for all its headlines is a lot less bias than the ABC who are at it, ever hour of the day. I even heard one reporter on RN yesterday morning get so carried away he was calling Abbot's economic policy a "magic puddling", repeating verbatim Govt slogans. Another a while back, was going on about: "the hysteria around the carbon tax "not as a quote mind you, but her own description.

But I guess anyone who confined their readings to << Antony Loewenstein,Julian Burnside, Ian Macauley, Margot Kingston>> and like "thinkers" would find nothing untoward in that!

Dear SPQR,

Great try!

JOM,
I don't agree with your opinion of why Aussies have little sympathy for illegal boat people.

It is simply because we do not like being taken for fools. We know they fly most of the way and bribe corrupt officials and have false papers and so on. We are well aware that they pay far more than the commercial fare to enter Aus via the back fence and call our emergency services if they have problems. On top of that they then dispose of their identity papers and lie to our officials.

In short that is no way to curry favour and we do not like to be conned. Aussies have every right to believe the illegals are shonks

Banjo,

That is a fair summation.

I would add that taxpayers don't like to be taken for a ride for hundreds of $$millions annually by the shonks in professions who make a tidy living out of representing them either.

The boat arrivals problem starts in Australia:

- the Ruddy mistake that was made overturning the Howard arrangements; and,

- an appeals system that has created a lucrative (victim) industry for some professionals.

The decisions of the Department of Immigration (and advised by the Dept of Foreign Affairs) should be final, as in Denmark. No appeals.

In Indonesia according to the Government a lot of Iranians are getting there money back from the smugglers and going back home to Iran, Now if they were real refugees they would be going to another safe country but NO they go back to Iran THAT EQUALS they were Economic Invaders not refugees.

Any one want to bet most that were accessed as refugees were exactly the same ECONOMIC INVADERS the whole assessment process is a joke.

Government should have only issued TEMPORARY Protection visas only so we could have got rid of them.

CORRECTION

Any one want to bet most that were assessed as refugees were exactly the same ECONOMIC INVADERS the whole assessment process is a joke.

Philips,

And here's the second part of that joke.

So now we are seeing that Iranians in Indonesia when faced with the prospect of settling in PNG are opting to return home.

However, we already have --here in Oz-- thousands of failed Irian "asylum seekers".(even under the processes/procedures Bob Carr identified as full of holes,they were shown to be pretenders-- so one can image how glaring their scam was!)

But up till now our immigration minister has been wringing his hands whining about how we couldn't send them back as the Irian govt wouldn't co-operate.

Had no one ever thought to say to these pretenders:"Hey guys, you got here without your govts approval, make your way back the say way!"

Was it beyond the ken our highly paid ministers and administrators to come up with such a tact?

As long as we are feeding and sheltering them --and refugee advocates as conspiring behind the scenes to find a ruling, a technicality that makes it illegal for us to hold them in detention even though they are clearly not refugees ---they will not have any motivation to go home.

If Rudd is serious about his PNG solution he will apply it not just to those ARRIVING NOW, but those ALREADY HERE, like the failed Irian "asylum seekers"