Where are we now ? and...how did we get here ?

As Churchill once said.. "Never in the history of human conflict, have so many owed so much, to so few".. so it is in our present historical position.

We owe so much also, to the determined and military genious of Charles Martel, which saved the Franks from Muslim domination, and paved the way for his grandson 'Charlemagne' to shape the warring tribes of Saxons, Angles, Lombards, Avars and gave birth to 'proto- Europe'

BATTLE OF TOURS in 732 won by Charles "the Hammer" Martel, though massively outnumbered by the Pagan infidel Muslims, set the stage for the great reformer and nation builder, his grandson ....

CHARLEMAGNE.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlemagne for a full treatment of this towering ruler and refomer.

Look at his political, educational, financial and organizational reforms. He might even be called "Father of the Renaissance".

His battles with the Moors of Spain were but a small paragraph in a small chapter in his large book of greatness. Europe (and we) owe so much to this great man, -he deserves far more than this short mention today.

"The Moorish rulers offered their homage to the great king of the Franks in return for military support. Seeing an opportunity to extend Christendom and his own power and believing the Saxons to be a fully conquered nation, he agreed to go to Spain."

Strange twist you make on this Charlemagne who spent most of his life at war with one group or another

Dear Carsten, glad you took the trouble to read the link, well done.

But your singling out the fact of his military exploits at the expense of his many reforms is a little bit needless and pointless.
EVeryone was at war in those days, tribe against tribe all over.
Life was a succession of war and peace as each tribe took it upon itself to unite all the others under 'their' dominion.

Can I recommend a re-evaluation of Charlemagne ? yes.. he had his down side, divorcing some wives for no apparent reason, and the merciless slaughter of 4500 Saxons. A Saint he was not, nor a messiah, but a king, and a worldly one at that. He gave us no 'revelation', but he based a lot of what he did 'on' the revelation of Christ, and the only verse in the new Testament which supports his actions is Romans 13:1-5 -Paul delcares that "All authority is from God" It was Charlemagne who saw it as his calling I presume to establish an authority for the greater good of mankind.

While it is not for me or you to be his judge in the eternal sense, we can still reflect on his historical contribution to the unity and cultural growth of mankind in the European area. Without him the renaissance and enlightenment could not have occurred.

Just as it can be said that Modern Arabia and the spread of Islam could not have occurred without the unifying efforts of Mohammad, the same can be said of Charles Martel and particularly Charlemagne.

Unfortunately, the historical imperitives and goals of these 2 branches of civilization are at odds. Hence is it most important for us, to know from whence we came. and that is the point of my thread.
cheers.

When it comes to twaddle you take the cake boaz.
All this christian nonsense, the world would be a better place without the rot you blather and all your religous cohorts.
OPEN your eyes USA the most religous western country also the most warlike, the most murders, tne most social injustice, the most crime need I go on .
India most relgious eastern country and they don't give a crap about each other.
The middle east more relgious bigots per square inch than you would find anywhere, Jew and Muslim alike.( Knew you would love that)
England ,Spain, Italy are all better places since they gave piety away likewise the rest of Europe.
Have a look at yourself bigoted , narrow minded, aggressive.
If it had of been up to the church there would be no Renaissance, no Enlightment they kept the peasants ignorant so they could have power over them.
Why do you think the Salvos go to pubs? because the pagan drunks are more generous than the miserable "christians".
You are forever bagging muslims, read a bit more history (take your blinkers off)and you will see that they have given the world a lot, don't you realize that Christianity, Islam and Judaisam are all branches of the same rotten tree, you are like little kids fighting among yourselves.
I could write a big book about ungood stuff you freaks have got up to over the centuries, and nonsense in the bible written by people with absolutely no scientific knoweldge. trying to make sense of the events and the world around them, if they were alive today they would say "now that makes sense" and you try to hold this up as wisdom, what a joke, don't you realize how stupid you look.
BAH you make me sick bluddy hypocites.

Alanpoi, I dont feel quite as strongly as you, but you make several good points.

Most of our knowledge about the ancient world would be lost were it not for muslim scholars who had preserved much of the knowledge and several texts. Christian leaders at various times throughout history have ordered the destruction of anything that doesnt fit with their thinking of the way the world should be (including people).

I have no doubt that radical muslims are a threat, but so are radical christians. Both will find some justification within their holy books for their own actions - its all a matter of interpretation anyway.

CG and ALAN... I have to take issue with the view that the 'Church' kept the peasants ignorant.

Thats part of why Charlemagne was so important. The only place serious knowledge resided during the 'dark' ages WAS the monsteries. The Monks didn't run the show, and Charlemagne observed that unless education was made more widespread, the population would degenerate into barbarians. Look at what he actually did. He expanded education and made good use of the resources kept alive by the monks and monasteries. Had they not kept these things alive, the candle would have been snuffed out.

C.G. I disagree that we owe so much to Muslim scholars preserving this and that except that they may have preserved 'others' intellectual property for their own benefit. They, like all branches of mankind surely made original contributions, but I don't see their efforts as more outstanding than those of scholars under Charlemagnes rule. I don't even see the point of mentioning the 'Muslim' bit, pure historical coinidence right? A more appropriate term would be 'Arabic' scholars, rather than 'Muslim' Scholars because the knowledge was not connected to "Islam" but to the particular historical/geographical circumstances of a particular race..the Arabs.

Alan... while I see your passion about being anti religious, and ur welcome to your view (and to stand outside the next Catch the Fire prayer meeting at Festival hall giving out 'The God Delusion' by Dawkins :).... My thread here was not primarily about religion, but history and our historical debt to Charlemagne and his grandfather Charles Martel.

It is the Charlemagne primarily that the enligtenment and renaissance came because of his unparralelled social and educational reforms, not to mention the widespread peace and unity he enforced.(yes..I use the word 'enforced' because all 'peace' is based on the same truth) But his peace was not an 'oppressive and greed based' type..he appears to have felt a genuine and ambitious desire of the well being of the people at heart. After all, with the power he had, he 'could' have become like the pre-revolutionary French aristocracy.