Simply throwing money at a problem like education is only one part of the solution, as student participation is also of most importance, and good luck with that.

While emerging nations are pouring money into education, I would suggest it's fair to say that their students, on the whole, are better disciplined and far more committed than a large portion of our students.

Perhaps it's time we segregated our public schools, into the students that show determination and 100% commitment and those who really don't care and treat school more as a social event, rather than an education source, evidence being in the constant attachment they have to the likes of face book.

So, before we go throwing money away, perhaps we need to address the social problems which are much of the cause of our drop in our education standards, as pouring money into anything, without plugging the holes really represents poor value for the tax payers dollars.

If we think the likes of India and China are going to take our future jobs, we are right, but it's also about attitudes, as much as it's about funding, as students today know their rights, and teachers are all but powerless to make them do anything they don't want to do.

Gosh, rehctub, your middle-class puritanism knows no bounds.

What a great idea!

It'll be just like back in the good 'ol 1800's.

We could have one section for the "Jumped-up Petite Bourgeois" and another for the "Ragamuffins".

So your idea of addressing "social problems" is to ignore the basis of the problem and penalise the children by segregating one bunch into no-hopers and the other into "kids worth bothering about"?

What a good recipe for social cohesion and advancement.

Amazing!

Well, maybe it is 'middle class puritanism' Poirot. But I have to say that the Aussie attitude to education is surely a big part of the problem, and one rarely discussed. I'd be interested in seeing what teachers actually think about that, especially in high schools.

My own experience after raising four kids and actually knowing several teachers is that the attitude to learning is a major issue. Hells Bells, it was like that when I was at school too.

When parents raise their children with a desire to learn and to do well in life, and schools back that up, you will often see children who strive to achieve. But it seems to me this is increasingly not the case.

And when you add in the counter productive influence of social media, television (the great mediocrotiser) and social attitudes, well, I am afraid all the money in the world won't make it better. As well the crazy notions in schools now that everyone is meant to 'feel good' regardless of how crap they are and well...

lefties always need more and more money because its usually their failed dogmas that create the problems such as in education. Everyone knows its dysfunctional homes that leads to disadvantage and yet the lefties have been trying to destroy functional homes for decades. Look at the millions wasted on fixing the aboriginal communities. Not a thing to show for it except the mantra that more money is needed.

Poirot, a lovely, but fool sentiment. It is that thinking that did away with streaming, so no one got a decent education. Every kid equally stuffed. Surely better to give those who want it, the best we can do, & the rest what ever they can handle or actually want.

Aren't you involved in home schooling? The ultimate form of streaming, & growing rapidly. It does seam a negative to me, as how can a home schooled kid access university, with no school results to assess.

Regardless, it is the kids, or their parents, who select themselves out, not any one else. It is of no use to try to force these kids to learn, it just will not happen.

I told you of the system of keeping them out of interfering with others learning at our local school, & gaining something themselves, & you appeared to agree. Whatever, school is not the place to address social problems.

That requires the hand out mentality eliminated, not some half baked bit of social engineering in schools. The many "B" graders we have teaching schools are often struggling to do the teaching job, let alone doing social work as well.

Paying the same teachers more won't help anything, except perhaps have a few better dressed. Sacking 30% of them, then spreading the kids & the pay saved between those worth paying would work, but only after selecting those kids worth bothering with by exam results.

Well, yeah, guys...silly me....I can now see the merits in rehctub's idea of "segregation".

I'd be interested to know, however, how it might be implemented.

Given that a goodly portion of "schooling" is given over to the covert objective of teaching humans to line up or sit in serried rows, to react to bells and whistles, and judge their value by the number of stickers and merit certificates they collect, I suppose the segregated no-hopers can just be taught to toe the line and bugger the rest of it.

Hasbeen,

There are nay number of ways to approach university, if a young person feels that is their calling. our young man happens to be quite adept at thinking for himself, having endured years of liberty in self-motivated independent learning (poor little guy:)...although he doesn't have a huge collection of stickers and merit certificates (It's a wonder he has such a good opinion of his own abilities, in that case!)

Thank God that are only 22 million, imagine the chaos if there were more.

Hasbeen

I usually agree with most of what you say however

'Aren't you involved in home schooling? The ultimate form of streaming, & growing rapidly. It does seam a negative to me, as how can a home schooled kid access university, with no school results to assess. '

My 3 kids received quite a bit of homeschooling. One has just finished a science degree and is expecting to start medicine next year, another has 2 degrees with 1st class honours and is sitting in Parliament house at the moment while another is doing a sparky trade. This from a father who was challenged getting through high school. If you realised how stuffed the state system is (caused largely by secular dogma) you might have a slightly different view of concerned parents who see great advantage in homeschoolong.

if a young person feels that is their calling.
Poirot,
What if my calling was to just go bushwalking & cruising would you be only too happy for the taxpayer to support me ?

Poirot: "Given that a goodly portion of "schooling" is given over to the covert objective of teaching humans to line up or sit in serried rows, to react to bells and whistles, and judge their value by the number of stickers and merit certificates they collect, I suppose the segregated no-hopers can just be taught to toe the line and bugger the rest of it."

Poirot, this seems to me to be an example of the utopian but fundamentally flawed leftist view. It's always about the individual being able to express themselves and being given the freedome to escape the yoke of the oppressive classes, and all we need to do is throw more money at the problem. It seems to be rooted in the notion that successful or rich people are so because, well, they have the money and exploit everyone else. So if we all had lots of money, we'd all be OK.

Sadly real life is never like that. Throwing more money at intractable problems is unlikely to suddenly make them tractable. With education, we are constrained by societal attitudes, by parental involvement, by cultural biases, and by the fundamental problem of affording the best of everything for all.

So pragmatically, what solution gives us the best bang for the buck? Teaching people to fall into line and work for reward and recognition is unfortunately the macrocosm in microcosm. It's what we all have to deal with our whole adult life. And it is the best way to go with what we have.

Where we let the horse bolt was when we started down the slippery slope of encouraging mediocrity for all.

Poirot, Runner, how do these kids get into Uni without all the OP scores & such, or are they self funded.

I have no illusions that government schools are superior. Neither of my two would have achieved the OPs necessary to get the courses they wanted, if they had depended on the public school system. Home & outside coaching was required to get even the basics in some areas

It is the practicalities I am interested in.

I would much prefer a return to the old one big external exam at the end of school, open to everyone, home schooled & self taught as well. With that system you knew if students had actually retained anything, & could handle mild pressure. You could rate them on an equal genuine footing.

If they have retained not much, & can't handle pressure, that should be a fail, & no further public money should be wasted on them.

My son was mucking up a bit, until I pointed out to him he only got one chance. It was those who took the education system by the neck, & shook everything they wanted out of it who were the winners, not the ones who got away with things. Fortunately he got the idea.

Hasbeen

In the case of my kids they needed to be put back in the zoo for yrs 11 and 12 to obtain tertiary ranking. I do believe however that most unis now offer entrance exams for disadvantaged kids (whose parents homeschooled etc). My daughter hated her schooling experience and learn't far more at home. She was bullied and her class was literally chaos with kids making the life of teachersand students misery. Useless laws along with no discipline led to our decision to withdraw her early on. She had 5 years of homeschooling after been withdrawn. The naysayers criticised the decision however it turned out to be one of the best we could ever have made as a parents. It would of been child abuse to leave her in that situation.

Graeme,

I agree that chucking money at education is not a panacea, and never has been.

I also agree that there are many variables which dictate how well a child imbibes an education - not the least being parental influence.

Whether you call it mediocrity or one-size-fits-all, some parents vote with their feet and march away from institutions.

Poirot, whether you like it or not, many at schools today are not there to learn.

The first step would be to have a complete ban on mobiles/tablets at schools, as well as a very strict Internet content rule, if not already in.

Then, once the sudents that actually wish to learn are identified, and they need not be brain surgeons, it would make more sense to provide tutoring for small groups, ratherbthan just throw more money in to the missing bowl.

Education in my view is as much the responsibility of the parents, as it is of the schools, as schools simply provide the scope, albeit with their hands tied behind their backs.

Unfortunately, these days, many parents see schools as a free day care facility, so it's little wonder our standards are slipping, when many parents either don't care about their kids education, or won't make time for homework etc.

You know there's a problem when parents can opt out of homework for their kids.

Now while I acknowledge that there are many great sudents and parents out there,most in fact, it's the dead beats that the likes of this type of funding will be wasted on, and waste is what's got us in the mess we are now.

If Gonski had more insight into reality he would have suggested a national service as the final stage of education.
Ah and, push for a flat tax as a sign of his commitment to bettering our sad, derelict morale & mentality.

Working in the education sector I can tell you two things.

1. Parents have the most influence over a student's success. We often say as soon as you meet the parents you understand why. This doesn't always mean they are alcoholics or illiterate or worse. It usually means they are unwilling to set boundaries at home that make education number one. They don't put any limitations around tv, computer, phone, iPods, iPads etc. all the studies would tell you kids should not have any technology in their rooms. They did a study of the top 100 hsc students a few years ago and 99 had one thing in common. No social media for year 12.
They also need to publically support the school in front of their kids. It's fine to disagree with school and teachers in a private meeting, but never in front of kids at school or at home. And parents need to spend lots of time working with students on their education.

2. Students have been getting lazier and less motivated as a rule. There is a view is that young people are given everything and live such a great lifestyle, even many kids from lower income families have expensive mobile phones, laptops, computers in rooms, TVs in rooms. They are also used to being entertained 24/7, at times unwilling to knuckle down and focus.

So the premise of gonski good or bad. With a doubt the concept of giving extra funding to schools with disadvantage is a good one. Because schools are making up for the shortcomings students face in their outside school environment. This could be for a wide range of issues. Kids who come from homes with good or great parenting, with no learning disadvantages , and middle class or above need very little assistance. They will generally achieve success.

Northernoutlook, I fully agree your views, however, don't you think it would be wise to invest extra resources into the kids that want to learn, (tutoring as an example) rather than throw money in the pit, hoping some of it reaches these kids.

Now your statement about I'll disciplined kids is also a major problem in the workforce.

When I get a kid wanting to start an apprenticeship, 8 out of 10 are from a broken home, and of those 99.9% live with their mum.

Now that's fine, until they reach about 17, then they start to rule the roost at home and they bring that attitude into the workplace.

As I say, education is the job of parents, backed up by schools and teachers.

As I say, education is the job of parents, backed up by schools and teachers.
rehctub,
I'd agree with that, the only problem being that parents aren't ALLOWED to instil discipline by order of our Governments.

Well Indi, our kids got a smack when naughty and a belting when they did something really bad.

Nobody has the right to tell us how to bring up our kids.

BTW, they are both now young adults, and hard workers, great people and have adopted our message of respect your elders.

I said to my wife just recently, you know you've done a good job with your kids, when they both love you and still enjoy spending time with us.