O sung, I have trained several apprentices, most of which have not completed their time with me, as they felt I was too hard on them. And I was.

But, I have always believed that if you want to be a good tradesman, you first need a good teacher and you also have to be a good student, amd unfortunately, it is not a trade that you succeed without putting in an extreme effort.

Of the ones I have fully trained, they completed their apprenticeship in as little as 2/12 years, to 3 years. They were then paid full wages, and two of them were under 21.

One has become a millionaire in his own shop, another a second in charge at Woolworths, and another a manager in a small goods factory.

All three are in my view excellent butchers, and I would offer them a job any day.

'evening to you HASBEEN,INDIVIDUAL & REHCTUB...

All of you gentleman more or less agree, if the young person is well trained, very well trained AND, had the right attitude with respect to their willingness to continue to learn, albeit they've been formally qualified at the Technical College. And to accommodate your requirements and proviso HASBEEN, they've gained sufficient 'on the job' supervised experience, without the need to be continually monitored, then and only then, they've earned adult remuneration because they 'work' as an adult.

The question would be for you REHCTUB, if you took a 'sickie', would you be comfortable enough to allow your young employee to totally run your butchery (unsupervised) for the day, in your absence ?

INDIVIDUAL and HASBEEN I'm not sure what enterprise you're both in, however I seem to recall you HASBEEN are a pastoralist in the bush ?
Sorry INDIVIDUAL I'm not sure what your business is ? I think you're the principal in the business, whatever it may be ?

However, would either of you accept the model I've articulated above for REHCTUB'S Butcher Shop ? Or would either of you still demand more empirical evidence the young person is actually 'earning' an adult wage, in a very verifiable, demonstrable way ?

Correct me if I'm wrong HASBEEN, in WW11 there were young pilots of just 19, 20, or 21 years of age 'in command' of high performance fighter aircraft. Some were not even Commissioned ? Merely Flt Sgts. etc. I'd be horrified to think they weren't in receipt of the full pay and entitlements as an adult pilot of similar skills ?

O sung, it was even worse than that, some of those kids could not even drive a car. Some of them had as few as 15 hours on Spits or Hurricanes, & I think it is true to say, they were not just making up the numbers, but were accidentally used as decoys, allowing the more experienced pilots to make kills of enemy distracted with shooting down those kids. Unfortunately most of them were not drawing wages for long.

When I was racing I had an automotive reconditioning factory, doing mostly hydraulic stuff, brakes steering, shock absorbers etc. In that I employed a number of mature age fitters, competent people, on full wages, employed as apprentices so they could become qualified.

Later when I was running tourist boats in the Whitsundays I had a number of skippers who had started with me as deck hands. In this industry it doesn't matter how good a boat handler you may be, you must have the necessary ticket, & that requires time served in various positions to acquire. It is very similar to an apprenticeship, served on the water.

The rate of pay depends on the power & size of the boat, & it is qualifications not age that the employee must have for different size boats.

Unfortunately boat drivers are born not made, although even the best need training to achieve it. Some may have the bit of paper, but you would never let them loose with your boat. However no matter how good they may be, without the bit of paper, you can't legally have them running a passenger boat.

O sung, I have done just that, left younger ones in charge and gone away for the week between Christmas and new year. They were both still apprentices at the time, but I was already paying them as butchers in events like that.

My analogy for the definition between an espiring manager and just an employee is quite simple.

An employee is one who says, I only have two hours to go, where as a committed wannabe manager says, I only have two hours left.

I developed what I consider was the best training incentive for apprentices.

Each Monday morning I paid my two first years their $20 bonus, by way of four five dollar notes, placed on a clipboard, beside their name.

When they made a silly mistake (basic housekeeping) I took one five dollar note back.

After about three weeks, they both kept their $20 bonus and it cost me $40 for peace of mind.

Year two was three ten dollar notes and included basic to moderate butchery skills, same deal.

Year three was two twenties and year four (not that they took that long) was one fifty.

Now I can tell you that any boss would pay a few bucks per week to have a mistake free workplace and, given it was my money that was at risk, not theirs, they couldn't say I was robbig them.

It worked a charm.

o sung wu,
I'm not in business. I get very upset at times when I get home from work & TV news show people losing their jobs not through non-performance but due to some cowardly bureaucrats stalling at decision making.
As I watch the news about these poor people getting sacked my mind goes to my organisation where we have more work than we can poke a stick at yet workers don't turn up or when they do nothing gets done yet the fortnightly pay is for 76 hours. People have reported this to managers but absolutely nothing is being said & done about it by those who's job it is.
Speaking up can result in dismissal.

I had exactly the opposite rehctub.

I had an old bloke, probably only 10 years younger than I am today, working for me in the reconditioning factory. He could never produce 20 hours worth of work a week, but I used to leave him in charge when I was off racing.

He had ethics, & looked at everything from a customers point of view. If something was not up to the standard he would expect as a customer, it didn't go out.

I always reckoned one faulty item cost you the profit on about 10 to repair, & that was before the result of loss of reputation. This bloke could not earn his keep as a fitter, but probably saved me a fortune by ensuring nothing but the best went out the door.