csteele,

I can’t find your source for this. Curious because it contradicts other information as shown below, can you provide the source?

“The intention was to close to an 'ideal' firing position on the side of the BELGRANO away from the escorting destroyers. A salvo of MK 8 Mod 4's were considered better than a Mk 24 Mod 1, because of the BELGRANO's thick armour plating and anti torpedo bulges.”

“Mod 2 passed sea trials in 1978 and was issued the following year. When HMS Conqueror sank the ARA General Belgrano during the 1982 Falklands war she used the "point and shoot" 21" Mark VIII torpedoes rather than her Tigerfish”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_24_Tigerfish (Mod 2)

As a former employee of one of the Marconi subcontractors I can confirm this. But I cannot explain your reference. Please supply and I’ll follow it up.

Dear Spindoc,

I wrote,

“What I have taken exception to was your pomposity and your denigration of other with words like 'sick puppy' and 'gutless cretins'.”

That elevated you to 'special project' status my friend.

However it was not all that difficult to find you were talking through your hat.

You wrote;

“What you really want is for me to provide some sort of link to classified archives in order to substantiate my assertions; you know full well that is not possible of course, there isn’t one.”

Well actually there is and it wasn't that hard to find. Declassified last year the Report of Proceedings of HMS Conqueror in Operation Corporate can be found here.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/hms-conqueror-op-corporate-report-of-proceedings

Go to Part 2, page 148 and read the Commanding Officers End of Event Summary and you will see the words I quoted. Further reading will show there was no intent to target one of the escorts as you have asserted. It was just that the 'first weapon missed astern'.

You also asserted that;

“Immediately on the exit of the General Belgrano from port with a three destroyer escorts, Conqueror launched a remote wire operated torpedo, nicknamed the Umbilical Torpedo; otherwise know by its then code name, the “Tiger fish”. The Tiger Fish was held on station under the Belgrano until just before she was sunk some days later.”

All complete rot.

Page 135 shows the HMS Conqueror did not make contact with the group proper until the afternoon of the day before the attack.

Now my dear friend you have a choice. Pull your pants up, apologise for calling people here gutless cretins and sick puppies, and retreat. If you do so I promise not to raise this matter on any other thread. If not it is probably worth finding another nickname because you will never hear the end of it.

A bit harsh? Probably, but I feel I'm channelling the Baroness. A very small tribute in the scheme of things I know, but one does what one can.

Dear Spindoc,

Belay that.

Maggie has now left me and on reflection bellicose threats should go with her.

How about this, you are who you are but I think it would be a good idea if in the future you attempt to temper your denigration of others and check your facts a little more thoroughly.

csteele,

There were a few other mistakes I made that I can fez up to. The Courageous was a Churchill class sub and not a Trafalgar class, the conventional torpedoes were MK 8 and not Type 34 and it was not Courageous that shadowed the Belgrano TG until contact on May 1. So I’ll keep my pants at half mast with just a bit of the plumbers crack showing.

You stated, <<My understanding is the decision to use conventional torpedoes instead of the Tiger fish was because of doubt about its reliability>>

I challenged that by showing that Courageous was equipped with certified and not unreliable systems, upgraded 1979. (Mark 24-Mod-2 for ASW and ASV use. The Marconi upgrade).

Then from your link you asserted; <<This was a purely operational decision>>. Correct but I’ve added all the considerations of conventions and ROE that cover operational decisions, they are huge and constantly changing.

From the transcript you provided, my assertions are confirmed by the constant ROE changes and the readiness of weapons choices.

The weapons choice was not because of unreliability and the operational issues did embrace all the ROE factors I outlined and many more.

<< I have ROE to attack. Aim now is to close TG 79.3 and then work into firing position.

Preferred weapon is MK 8 Mod 4. If a good attacking position cannot be achieved because of the escorts, then I shall use a Mk 24.

“Thursday April 22

1412 Received COR 093 (3 and 4 tubes preferred Mk 24)
C/D 425 Starting torpedo shuffle to put Mk 24’s up 3 and 4 tubes

April 23

My ROE now changed. Only Argentinean submarines may be attacked. In theory I should withdraw my MK 8 torpedoes – in practice I won’t

May 1 2359 – Ready to conduct Tigerfish attack should TG 79.3 head north into TEZ>>

Some are lazy and vindictive to hide behind CT links without facts and launch them to make salacious and unsubstantiated claims, I’ll check my facts, they can provide some.

Since you’ve offered an olive branch, I accept. Aye!

It looks like this thread has now run its course.
I would like to Thank everyone who has contributed
to it. Margaret Thatcher remains controversial in
death as she was in life.

"Eternal rest grant to them, O Lord
And let perpetual light shine on them
May they rest in peace
Amen."

She must have had something going because Blair continued her policies.

One thing that irritated in all of the crude sensationalism and melodrama was the Left's, and notably some of the big swinging knobs of the feminist commentariat's, insulting negative stereotyping of Thatcher as an iron maiden, a witch and worse. The Left and feminists are sexists. No problems employing the nasty stereotypes against women where it suits their purpose.

Thatcher was a truly remarkable person and more so because she was a women. It is typical of the Left and feminists that they would choke to death before they recognise that. For instance, Thatcher challenged the class system. That was for all of the right (as in positive) reasons and didn't throw any babies out with the bath water. It was achieved gradually, largely through her own example and without the abuse and spite of the Left.

Honestly, most of the criticism of Thatcher is ill-founded and by people who were not even alive at the time and haven't bothered to research. Still, the print and electronic media tabloids managed the (serially) incensed mob to increase their audience for a few days, and the midgets who bite at the ankles of giants had their day in the sun as well.

There seem to be so many people who need an adrenalin boost through angry outbursts (at students or footballers next?), or is that just because of their own jealousy? As Thatcher might have said, you can all do it too if you are prepared to work for it and don't always expect a free handout. Blair was right to agree with that.

Forget the 'love her or loathe her' sensationalist, trivial bunk of the media, Thatcher was a great leader. If feminists and the Left were genuine they would build a statue to her.