So here we go, sitting here, powerless, while the incompitent government, assisted by those who couldnt see their shortcomings, go about stuffing up yet another major project, in the way of the NBN.

With the number now being suggested to be around 90 billion,(about double) and the roll out at a snails pace, I wonder if the labor die hards will finally get the message that they are assisting these fools on their quest to ruin the futures of ordinary decent people.

Wake up to yourselves and smell the roses.

I bet the clown running the circus on $500,000 plus and his 'Board' down the scale to $200,00 couldn't give a crap about the cost. No one is going to abandon it now. Watch their super grow though like manure in the garden.

By all means let's all attack the government once again.
We've heard it all before ... the carbon tax will wipe
out whole towns, whole industries will go belly-up,
lamb roasts will rise to over $100 and so on.

Anyone who's worked in large project management realises
that and as Mr Abbott has told us in the past -
"shite happens." Things don't always go to plan.
Sometimes it takes a bit longer, and does cost more, -
due to unforseen circumstances. But it's often worth the
effort in the final result.

BTW - the NBN Co maintains that it is only 3 months behind
and is confident it will pass 341,000 premises by Sept. 30th.

According to The Age newspaper, a spokesperson for the
NBN Co stated, "We're not asking people to trust us.
We're asking them to track us."

And why did the Gillard Government refuse to undertake a financial cost benefit when the Opposition demanded it ?

......
Sometimes it takes a bit longer, and does cost more, -

So what's your opinion of 'COSTS MORE' Lexi, or, will we blame it on the GFC again.

Given this is tipped to be up to 100% over budget, does that mean it's only a problem if it's say, 150%, 200%, over budget,where is the trigger Lexi?

As for roll out, well, we can just add this one to the FAILED TROPHY case, along with almost every other thing this mob have touched.

This is yet ANOTHER case of total incompetence from a government that's truly below par when it comes to making financial commitments.

September just can't come quick enough, for most of us, anyway.

Technically the biggest white elephant currently on the books is the F35 Lightning procurement and that's the offspring of a coalition government.
The Lib/Nats NBN plan is looking just like the Super Hornet "stop gap" procurement for the ADF, proven technology yes,it'll work well for a while because the airframes are relatively new but the program provides no significant gain in capability. To use the aircraft comparison again if the coalition had gone with the Dassault Rafale fighter in the first place we'd already have a full compliment of an advanced, battle tested, reliable aircraft by now at a fraction of the cost of the F35. So it is with internet, if Labor had gone with a mix of proven off the shelf technologies from the get go the job would be well underway by now.
Will they ever learn?

rechtub,
The roll out to my suburb,Darebin which is about 10k from the CBD is projected to completed between 2016-2017, at the rate they're going it'll be more like 2020, what is the internet even going to look like in seven years?

Jay. wow. 2017, that probably means I will be dead before it reaches here.

Anyway all the huffing and puffing on the NBN is pointless unless the
sites to which we connect massively upgrade their computers.
I have a 10 megabit connection but have never seen that download speed.
So when you NBN fanatics get your 25 Mbit or 100 Mbit connections you
will not see the slightest difference.
You will get very fast packets, but the time between packets will be
100 times longer !
Come in suckers !

Jay Of Melbourne - The planes are definitely a waste of taxpayer money but at least you have something tangible for your money (I say some people got kickbacks).

To me the biggest white elephant are the economic invaders in the last 2 days more than 340 have arrived. What tangible value do we get from a lot being elderly or disabled or 85% still on welfare after being here over 5 years.

We even have to give them rewards to take classes to learn English, you would think they would be glad to take classes.

WE?
You have uttered those words before.
The truth is, way out there in the lost land of the Tea Party right.
Understanding is absent!

Dear snake,

You don't want to believe what you read in some of
the tabloid press or what the Coalition tells you.
The government released the 2012-2015 NBNCo's Corporate
Plan - provided by the NBN Co Board on the 8th August.
The plan stated the capital cost will be $37.4 billion.

Dear rehctub,

Just to clarify a few things for you.
Here are some facts:

The NBN Co's current Corporate plan states that:

"NBN will require some 37.4 billion in capital expenditure
over the next decade to construct its network infrastructure.
It will also spend some 23.1 billion in operating expenditure
over that period although that figure is expected to be made up
mainly from 26.4 billion in revenues over that period.
Ultimately over the long term... NBN Co is projecting that it
will make a return of 7.1 percent on the government's
investment in the infrastructure - meaning that it is
currently projected that the construction of the NBN will
actually make the government money on its investment."

"Additionally, not all of its funding is expected to come
from the government. NBN Co is currently projecting that
it will require about 30 billion worth of government investment
over its life - with another 14 billion to be funded through
debt arrangements."

The difference between the government's plan and the Coalition's
is - the Coalition's will be antiquated
fibre to the node technology, as opposed to the NBN's best
(and thus more expensive but longer lasting)
fibre to the home rollout. And the government's is based on
actual contracts which have been signed and actual customer
take-up. Whereas who knows what the Coalition's real life
actuality will be and what the costs will be when things
have to be upgraded. More expensive in the long term - and
less efficient.

Lexi, it is not as simple as you are stating.
First the takeup is pretty poor at the present, it may improve.
That cuts a hole in the revenues expected so that money difference has
to be paid by the government.

Fibre to the premises is the best technique if you can afford it and
FTTN is an alternative, which is cheaper and you will never see the
speed difference.
Wireless, ie radio systems should not be used unless necessary.

Sen Combe keeps saying that the copper in the street is obsolete and
decrepit. I would suggest he would not have a clue which end of a
soldering iron to hold. The copper in my street has been there since
about 1960 and is in good condition when I saw it about ten years ago.
It is PTFE insulated cable which will last near forever.
Remember all those copper pots that get dug up from Roman times ?
Not even with insulation around them.
You need to take more salt with your politicians.

Dear Bazz,

The voice of reason here.

I may be naive in many areas and I certainly
don't have all the answers. However, I am
(like so many voters) so darn sick and tired
of the Coalition's constantly telling us what's wrong
with the government while offering us
nothing of any substance. As my father used to tell
me - "criticism is so easy - but how about offering
some solutions on how to fix things."

Lexi;
HMMM, well they did that !

Of course you won't get a full rundown until closer to the election.
Have you forgotten how the coalition used to taunt the labour opposition
on being a policy vacuum.
Oppositions never real their hand until the government makes its policy
speach.
So just be patient it will all come out from both of them sometime
after the budget.

The problem with the critics is that they seem to think the NBN is just about fast speeds for the citizens when it is about updated technology to link us with the world.

For heaven's sake, like whiney babies longing for the days of carrier pigeons and camels they still don't get the point.

Copper is dying, it is slow and inefficient and over crowded. It will be replaced with technology for the next 50 or so years that can be easily extended.

Has anyone else seen the reports that suggest fiber has a shorter service life than copper.

Could the NBN become the new Sydney Harbour Bridge, the first bit painted requires repainting before the whole job is finished.

Sounds like a good long term business. Replacing the first laid, now degraded fiber, before the whole network is finished.

Whoops Lexi;
I meant Conroy, not Combe.

Marilyn, no copper does not die.
In olden times the copper wires were insulated with paper and the cable
was lead sheathed. However earth currents corroded the lead sheathing
and caused faults by letting water into the cable.

This what Sen Conroy is talking about. He has just swallowed a story.

Cable installed in the sixty years or so years since have replaced
the paper/lead cables with teflon/plastic cables.
The cable in my street is as new.

Hasbeen;
I have not heard that fibre is deteriorating. They use it in the
international submarine cables, although it could be a different cable
I just wouldn't know.

I think it is the Rolls Royce solution, but I would settle for a Volvo.

saw this today.

In 2007, Kevin Rudd promised fast broadband for all Australians by 2013 at a cost of $4.7 billion.

Instead, Labor’s NBN is years behind schedule and is likely to end up costing over $90 billion. All this during a time when Labor has racked up a record debt of $300 billion - costing Australians $7 billion a year in interest.

Lexi, it's funny how NBN Co can make predictions, yet they can't tell the potential users how much it will cost.

I find that a bit odd, don't you?

Now as for direction from the libs, may I suggest they are doing the sensible thing, that being waiting for the May budget, so we can see just where we are.

Now, don't you think that a sensible approach, or, would you rather they go off half cocked like labor do, announcing a policy first, then finding a way to fund it.

Surely there's a lesson to be learned from the failed MRRT, in the way labor allocated the money, before making sure their dream would work.

Sorry Lexi, but you really are trying hard to flog a dead horse, but that horse they call labor, has an appointment with the glue factory come September 15, so you had best accept it for what it is.

Besides, even if Abbott and Co set about to ruin the country, they would still come a distant second to labor in that race.

Trouble is, labor were not trying.

What is left to be said regarding failure after failure from these clowns?

In exactly the same way that the BER delivered COLA’s (covered outdoor learning areas) for three times the price of pre BER COLA’s, there are as many administrators on the books as there are installation teams on this rort….2000 work in the offices and 2000 work at installation. Currently the teams are passing 30 dwellings a day as opposed to the 3000 per day that the lying bureaucrats had committed to.

Like the BER there are multiple layers of contractors that only shuffle paper with their snouts firmly placed in the swill trough and the guys who do the install get a pittance for their end.

Yes Lexi they are brilliant, yes Lexi they are fantastic, yes Lexi you have an overwhelming right to an opinion, but your opinion is worthless given you see no fault with anything these clown do.

Lexi you told me recently that you make political direction issues based on policies that are best for you and your family. Would you consider finding another country to practice your freedom of choice in?...No offense.

Dear SOG,

You ask would I find another country to
practice my freedom of choice in?
Why?

I love this country. I was born here.
My family and I have worked hard all of our
lives. We have paid our dues.

I'm afraid that I don't understand why you would
suggest such a thing to me.

Actually you have offended me greatly.

I guess I was taken in by your earlier references
to me as - "My Belle," et cetera, in the past.

I didn't realise what was really in your heart.

Sad.

cont'd ...

BTW - my opinion is not worthless simply because
it doesn't happen to agree with yours.
And if you check my posting records I have
criticised Labor many times in the past, including
the mess they're in currently and the reasons for it.
I've stated quite clearly about the wrong policy
decisions that have been made on their part to appear
tougher than the Opposition and their party machine men
that control things.

What I am against however is misinformation - and it
may come across to you as my being so pro-Labor - but
the truth is - I prefer facts to rhetoric - and to
have the full picture being given - not just manipulation
to suit someone's political agenda.

Anyway, I am truly disappointed to find out that someone
I respected does not think very much of me.

I guess that's something I'll have to learn to live with.

One of the things that always amazes me is the inability of the govt to sell their great successes. So when SOG and others talk about the BER being a failure and a waste I laugh. The BER was the most and only significant aust wide investment in school facilities we have ever seen. And a majority of schools are thrilled with the results. Because as I said they know its unlikely to happen again. In most cases schools were able to liaise and pick what they wanted, particularly if they already had a hall and or library. Yes there was some cost issues, but seriously name me a building project that stays on or below budget.
And the analysis of the waste laid blame at the feet of the east coast state govt systems. Because those govts don't allow schools to simply tender and force processes through cost adding internal systems.
The BER is the greatest investment schools have seen, between that money and laptops schools are miles ahead of the Howard years.
The NBN is another good policy, sometimes if you want quality you have to pay.
Bag the govt on faults not success. And govt learn to sell success.

If we're going to build an NBN, let's at least do it properly.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-04-09/experts-criticise-coalitions-internet-plan/4619506

...And if you check my posting records I have
criticised Labor many times in the past, including
the mess they're in currently and the reasons for it.

So why do you continue your unconditional support Lexi.

You appear adamant that you won't support Abbott, yet the coalition isnthe only government in recent times that has actually held things together.

Surely they are worth a shot, as you habe to remember two things.
1. They can't possibly do any worse
2. There will be another election three years later, so if the nation is not satisfied, they can vote them out.

So what is it you are afraid of Lexi.

It can't be their track record, so just what is it that scares you, any more that being scared of what this mob may do if let loose again, esspecially given the mess they have caused in less than two terms.

I love this country. I was born here.
Lexi,
Can you please explain then why you are so vehement in promoting those who are hellbent to ruin it ?

Lexi>> Anyway, I am truly disappointed to find out that someone
I respected does not think very much of me.

I guess that's something I'll have to learn to live with.<<

Lexi my belle, I unreservedly apologize for the stupid line regarding finding another country to vote in.

Lexi the difference between “you” and your “political opinions” are vast to my mind. I have no issue in stating that your persona and who “Lexi is” as an individual DOES carry a special place in my emotional heart. Like Belly you carry favour with me even though you’re “my party right or wrong” position astounds me. It lessens your credibility as a thinking entity.

In the same way that you discount or discard my pleas for rationality and calling a failure a failure, I discount your support for a rotten self serving government that disadvantages Australia as a whole. You said that you vote for policies that will favour you and yours. We are paying TWO FULLY STAFFED TEACHING HOSPITALS a month in interest to foreign banks or governments because Labor are hopeless managers while citizens die on hospital waiting lists. The largest Commonwealth debt in our history and you still support this government.

From Labors Obeid/McDonald theft and political graft in NSW, to the union hierarchy charged with stealing from the HSU members, the nepotism that abounds in “new Labor’s” political and union wings is staggering, but you continue to blindly support them. You have no credibility with me Lexi when it comes to political views.

Northernoutlook>> The BER was the most and only significant aust wide investment in school facilities we have ever seen.<<

Another simple soul mouthing rhetoric from their political masters.
WAKE UP CALL FOR NORTHERNOUTLOOK, our primary school children just came last in a global literacy ranking in English speaking nations….LAST….can you read that…LAST….it seems that the recipients of the brilliant BER cannot….that is your BER my simple acolyte.

Not that it matters, not here at least.
The experts not Labor, this morning is reminding us,we are to get third best.
And in the next 30 years become the very poor neighbor in this area.
A truth will elude many, when cost is put before performance you get only what you pay for.
Watch, this thread, as uninformed state as they have here in OLO so very many times, we do not need to play games faster.
Know the in coming government shares such views.
However we all must ask why must this country be last in this area.
I challenge yet again conservatives/Liberals/ Tea Party to show me the inventive policy,s, ones that gave this country good change sponsored by their governments.
Look only at the eyes of Turnbull during his interview at Abbott,s side see the bewilderment.
And too know Turnbull has invested , in NBN type supply in Europe.

From a number of perspectives the hybrids are the only realistic model. They offer inherent flexibility, eliminate the technology lock-in, liberate from fixed cost and capital investment recovery restrictions, can accommodate new technologies as part of maintenance rather than capital investment, they offer an open technology environment, facilitate competition and most importantly, they recognize that there is no such thing a one solution fits all and offer choice to the consumer.

Very few of these benefits will be available to NBN customers or relieve us from the built in cost escalation embedded in the NBN.

The “selling” of the NBN solution is getting farcical and embarrassing for the government.

I have heard some technological rubbish in my time but one of the NBN spruikers took the biscuit recently in defending FO technology against copper recently said, but signals travel at the speed of light with FO. You mean just like copper conductors?

Others included tired old copper and slow copper? Would this be the same copper over which equal transmission rates with FO are possible? Would this be the same copper that is impervious to age and where only connections with other metals oxidize? Would this be the same FO that requires redundant fiber bundle capacity to be laid from day one because of fiber fracture rates?

This debate is taking on the same mantra and CAGW but possibly even sillier.

Belly,

Because there are a few IT professionals with vested interests that don't like the coalition's plan does not mean that it is third rate, especially since this is exactly what every other country is doing.

The fiber to the node will cost a third of the NBN's projected $90bn, and will increase speeds to households by 500%. This can if necessary be upgraded to fiber to the premises as needed. This also saves on the cost and maintenance of UPS supplies

Senator Conjob is trying to convince us that internet costs are not going to rise with the NBN, but with the prices that Labor quotes, the NBN is technically bankrupt already. (like buying a $1m house and charging rent of $30/week.)

As for capacity requirements, there is no application in the world that requires more than 10Mb/s for households or home businesses, so 25-50Mb/s essentially future proofs the economy for a few decades. Businesses that need more can upgrade to fiber as and when needed.

"Because there are a few IT professionals with vested interests..."

Onya Shad, true to form, a baseless claim (against the interviewee in the link of my last post) to parry the truth away. Then you go on to spout yesterday's LNP propaganda as fact.

Do you get paid a consultancy for doing this work 24/7 as you do, or are you an apparatchik?

PS. Someone has to pull you up occasionally just so you don't think you're getting away with all your BS. See also my challenge you left untouched at http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=5705&page=0#159335

Here in W.A., most all new homes in many estates will have fibre direct to the home installed at the time of build. Would rather save money on the Coalitions plan now, and WHEN we can afford it, then possibly upgrade to fibre if necessary. At the rate technology is leaping ahead, by the time Labour have finished rolling out their plan, who knows whether even that will be obsolete by 2021.

Copper has proven it's longevity. Will fibre be able to match that, and will the cost to the consumer of it's implementation be worth us paying so much more to connect?

Is Labour now including the cost of NBN rollout in it's budget deficit figures?

Can we really afford to keep funding all Labour's grandiose ideas? Short answer is NO!

To spend OUR money so freely without our permission is a crime against us all. The government HAS NO MONEY!

It is your money and mine they are spending so recklessly.

Dead right Shadow Minister, I have always said that if amazing speed is what business wants, then let THEM pay for it.

What is the point in having ultra fast broadband in all households, when many ONLY use it to check emails, or download movies/ games, or pornos.

This government displays pure incompetence on all levels, as almost everything they have been involved in has either failed, blown the budget, or in more recent times, not even made it's way off the dreaming table.

They have made unfunded promise after promise, then blame themlikes of resourse prices for thier shortcomings, only because the GFC excuse has been flogged to death.

World watcher said;
To spend OUR money so freely without our permission is a crime against us all.

Well they are not spending our money, it is all borrowed.
Maybe they know something, ie that we will go broke and our bonds will
be defaulted ? Joke Lexi !

Spindoc said;
I have heard some technological rubbish in my time but one of the NBN spruikers took the biscuit

Yes, quite often the minister puts his foot in it also.

Spindoc also said;
that requires redundant fiber bundle capacity to be laid from day one because of fiber fracture rates?

Is there a problem with fibre fracturing ?
Do you mean while it is just lying in the ducts ?
Or does it happen while being handled ?

The biggest threat I see to the NBN is the figures that I saw for the
percentage of no landline phones houses in the US..
It was a surprisingly high percentage. If that happens here the
finances of both methods will be right up the spout, or down the gurgler.

The future was to be fool proof, the NBN was to be way out in front.
We must except fools have seen that off, and ask what will getting to world average speeds cost in that, now darker future.
Welcome to our new poster, was it northernexposure? forgive if not right.
You are unlikely to find on this subject clear sighted objectivity, we inhabit a space in Conservative tribal land, truth is seen as an unneeded danger to some to fixed closed minds.

LF,

Firstly being more busy than usual, I did not even read either of the posts to which you refer.

With respect to network loading requirements I am not an expert, but I am far from uninformed. There is a $bn plant with dozens of engineers, complex control and financial systems and multiple layers of internal networks for process control, cameras etc. Connecting this plant to the outside for internet, video conferencing, financial and VPN interfaces is a 100Mb/s fiber connection, which is more than adequate. I struggle to see why senator Conjob is trying to sell this as a minimum standard for families.

While some IT professionals lust after raw speed, mostly this is as useful as driving a Lamborghini in rush hour traffic. The day that it is essential for households to be able to simultaneously watch 20 HD movies is decades away. In the last 20 years, compression technology has reduced the bandwidth required for normal TV streaming from 12Mb/s to 250kb/s enabling vastly more efficient use of bandwidth. While future apps may need more bandwidth, much of it will be made up from improved efficiencies.

Refer to http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=10838 which gives a breakdown of what is required for what functions.

As for your infantile challenge on the other thread, I will try not to divert this thread, but insisting that I can only reference "Labor's official position" whilst commenting on their communication with the public is pathetic. Perhaps you would care to re frame your challenge so as not to look like a dunce.

Bazz,
The answer to your question is both. FO bundles are fragile because they are like glass; any crack is across the face at 90% rendering that fiber useless. Not a problem if the contractors know what they are doing. Do NBN contractors?

The first really big FO bundles were laid in Southern California in the 80’s, I worked for the Telco laying them, these were 6 inch bundles (250mm), have you seen the pathetic 25mm rubbish we are putting in?

We were putting almost 1000 times the bandwidth in the ground in the 80’s than NBN is currently laying. Not that it matters because even most of what the Yanks put in 30 years ago is now obsolete. Thanks to satellite, wireless, advances in copper signal synthesis multiplexing and the fact that copper only requires one end to be powered to maintain the link, FO can only operate if both ends are powered.

How good is that in Australia? Home phone or vital E-Health link anyone?

The ducts move all the time, mostly through the ground drying like rock then becoming water logged and shifting, again if done by professional engineers like Telstra, the risk can be minimized but is still much higher than copper. Copper on the other hand is brilliant, malleable, won’t “cold work”, crack or corrode and can already handle 100 Mbs/s.

The thinner the bundle the greater the percentage loss from damage and the higher the risk of failure under any conditions, not so with copper. NBN is an “orphan” in technological and economic terms. Ask yourself why undersea links like those between Singapore and North America are copper not FO?

We forget that room temperature super conductivity is not far off, down from minus 268 degrees to minus 90 degrees, but it doesn’t work with fiber. The NBN is technological madness, unless you wish to argue the case with Faraday

I suppose the pay-a-bit-less but get-a-lot-less Liberal alternative is supposed to be some sort of solution?

Well where is their so-called "business case" to justify their own plan?

There can't be. There's no such thing for national infrastructure. What's the case for building a Hospital for a community? What's the case for not building one?

Meanwhile, behind the scenes it's always been Rupert Murdoch that wants it scuttled because it will cost him money. Abbott said he would dismantle it the day after his meeting with Murdoch but now he realises people want it regardless.

The next best option is to give them a nobbled version that will choke at providing a viable alternative to high speed download that will make FoxTel redundant and open the market up to more players.

Most people with ADSL working via RIMs or CMUXs are already on Fibre-to-the-Node but don't know it.

NBN may be Broadband but what Abbott is promoting is only Fraudband.

It's a fake solution to a political problem and will probably be changed after the next election anyway.

Spindoc, thanks for the rundown. I have never worked with fibre so my
knowledge of it has been picked up in various conversations.

One question I have never had an answer to is, there are a considerable
number of fibres in the cable, all lying alongside each other.
Are the signals run down all the fibres in parallel or is each fibre
allocated a slice of spectrum ?
Having watch a cable being spliced I presume the first option is the correct answer.
If so does this not give some redundancy ?
Or if there are fractures, do they cause phase errors ? and thus make
the cable unusable ?

You can gather from my questions I am fairly clueless about the
practical usage of fibre.

BTW, in the US it seems that the number of landline less houses has
increased 10% this last year to 17 1/2%.
If that gets repeated here, it will crash the financials of both NBNs.

http://arstechnica.com/uncategorized/2008/12/number-of-landline-free-households-up-10-in-us/

The NBN might be expensive but so was the opera house and I am inclined to think a lot more Australians will find use for the NBN than visit the opera house. Maybe its an white elephant we need to accommodate?

Look, I'm on Telstra's $100 a month Liberty cable plan which is sold on the basis of a supposedly a "blazingly fast" 100 Mbs and it's complete bull. If I'm downloading something from a reliable site say,Steam or Apple's App store I get 4.0 MbS at most provided no one else in the house is using the network. If anyone thinks they're going to get "fast" internet from either plan they're dreaming, yeah things like e-health, which nobody will use anyway may be possible in some areas but to most people the internet is Facebook/Twitter/Instagram,gaming iTunes,uTorrent and shopping, none of which need anywhere near 100Mbs.
Gaming is another supposedly big seller for the NBN, well I spend a fair amount of time gaming online and the most popular games don't need "super fast" broadband or even very powerful computers. In fact the trend is away from high definition, "blockbuster" games toward low tech, low budget social games like Minecraft and Farmville and competitive e-sports titles like Counterstrike or League of Legends.

Apart from the 90 billion plus cost of building the thing I don't think many Australian households realize just how much it is going to cost them to connect let alone use the system.
I get 500 to 600 Kb/s now with telstra and that is good enough for me but when this is finished I will have to connect weather I like it or not because there will be no alternate.

Yes Jay, I have been saying for some time on here that all you will get
with the fibre NBN are very fast packets and very much longer time
between packets.
Unless the people running whatever server you connect to upgrade to
much faster CPUs, multiplexing modem banks and giga bit internet
connections and the path is not intercontinental you will not see
anything better than ADSL2+, even if you pay through the nose for 100Mbit.

That is why most of what the pollies say is BS.

Chrisgaff 1000 I don't expect you or I will see any difference, if I live that long.

Wobbles,

The coalition plan pays a lot less (about a third or $60bn less) for nearly all of what the NBN provides, and provides a platform to provide fibre to all the premises as needed.

No one else in the world is stupid enough to follow Labors one size fits all policy.

This may be of interest to some:

http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/editorial/coalition-lacks-vision-with-its-cheap-nbn-20130410-2hlO3.html

Lexi, the article you linked to does not say who wrote it but it is
pretty obvious that they are not very knowledgeable about the technology.
It reads like they are just accepting someones word that it will be
slower and ancient.
They also appear to have swallowed the myth that because it is copper
it must be on its last legs.

It is like I have said, I have a 10 Megabit link to my exchange at the
end of 2KM of copper, yet I seldom get much more than 1 Megabit down.
Why is that when the network itself is already fibre optic cable ?

The next nonsense we will see like this is a much bigger money burner,
the Very Fast Train, Brisbane - Sydney - Melbourne !

I think NBN stands for Ninety Billion-dollar Network. Or in round terms, about $7500 per house hold if all houses are connected, and $10 000 per household if 30% (as predicted) go wireless. The repayment on this would be at least $500 for interest let alone maintenance and actual internet.

Being remembered as a visionary means doing something extraordinary that changes peoples lives for the better. Running up a debt of $94bn whose interest could have paid for Gonski is not the way to do it.

Sorry SM you are wrong there.

$94bn of debt is a pretty good way to be remembered, & we'll be remembering Gillard, & the fool who preceded her, & the damage they caused us, for many long years, & many elections to come.

It appears that Hasbeen's report on the AGC, to invent an acronym
is now all over the media in Europe but appears to be a secret amongst
our media.
Here is a link to the Express newspaper in the UK.

http://tinyurl.com/bw9sjf5

Russian scientist Dr Habibullo Abdussamatov, of the St Petersburg Pulkovo Astronomical Observatory

Of course one swallow doesn't make a winter of course, but there may
well be some truth to the matter if you remember our conversation on
the Maunder minimum & sunspots recently.

I have got to admit I would relish the red faces that would be all
around if it turns out to be correct.

Dear Bazz,

The article I linked to was an Editorial Opinion
piece of The Age newspaper - and I'm afraid I
don't know the Editor's IT credentials - but if
you want more information you can always Google
other links from all sorts of experts.
There's plenty of them on the web - with all sorts
of opinions. Take your pick of what suits you.

Cheers.

Whoops, that last post was to the wrong thread, aaarrrggghhh

OK Lexi, not to worry, but there are just too many people making too
much just based on repeating what other non technical people are saying.

If it dribbles out of the remote computer it must dribble into yours !

Ah, a new acronym DO DI !

Dear Bazz,

Fair enough.

I'm by no means an IT expert.

However there's certainly plenty of them around
with all sorts of opinions.

What does concern me though is - and I've seen it
many times in our society with various
projects - we take the cheaper option
thinking we will save money - when it ends up costing
us more in the long term. We don't do the proper
long term planning in many cases.
In the case of the NBN -
we don't need an antiquated system - no matter how
cheaper it will be - we want to be able to compete
with our technology on the global market - and not
be left behind in the next century - as an IT
backwater. Of course that's only my opinion -
and I do wish we could keep politics out of it.
But fat chance - right? Especially in this election
year.

Lexi,
You cannot call the coalitions NBN proposal antiquated.
You said;
we don't need an antiquated system - no matter how
cheaper it will be - we want to be able to compete

Competition is completely unaffected by internet speed.
That is another non technical waffle.

It Just isn't antiquated and I suggest you read this non technical article.

http://tinyurl.com/bn2e7ou

I don't know what they mean by Vectored ADSL.
The V or X adsl I knew about was/is used in Canberra some years ago and
was I think 50 Mbit.

Lexi,
The wife called me before I mentioned that it won't be long before we
are engaged in another FTTP vs FTTN like argument.
The Very fast Train project will generate a similar argument.
Except there will be a three way argument;

1. The Highest speed project
2. The fast enough project
3. Money only put into electrified freight lines and reopen branch lines.

It will be all about money and will the money be available anyway ?
It will also be complicated by whether the airlines will still be flying.

Dear Bazz,

I've really got not much else to further add on this
topic except for this link that I've just come across:

http://nbnmyths.wordpress.com/why-not-wireless/

See you on another discussion.

Cheers.

The copper wire system was designed solely for the purpose of carrying audio signals, over the last 30 or so years it has now been been cajoled into to carrying ever more data, with varying degrees of success. It is clear to me that we need to a system specially designed carry data, and that system is the NBN. In the end the coalition system will cost more when it has to be completely finished.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/programs/clarkeanddawe/

Lexi,

What I find irritating is that those spruiking the NBN continuously put out pointless information and comparisons.

While fiber is presently capable of vast speeds, the networks have to choke back those speeds to avoid congestion. The 1Gb/s present speeds would chew up a large 200GB monthly download limit in 20mins, and the 2Tb/s (which would require very expensive electronics) in 1 second.

Also while the wireless networks are limited to 1Gb/s per transmission point, hundreds of people can be connected at a peak capacity of 50Mb/s as this speed is only used for occasional bursts.

if more transmission points are built, you don't need towers, a small antennae at each street corner could service an entire suburb with no wires at all, giving NBN speeds with no fiber. My work has such a system, with cigarette size repeaters every 100m around the plant, and everyone connects at 54Mb/s.

With the fiber to the premises costing about $60bn alone, getting the backbone in place and using the copper for 50Mb/s sooner seems to this engineer to be the most sensible approach.

Warmair,

The telephone cables were NOT designed SOLELY for carrying audio signals. They were designed to carry electrical signals, for which at the time the prime purpose was audio. Internet cabling being rolled out today still closely resembles this with a few refinements, and comfortably gets 1Gb/s over short distances (which decreases with distance). The FTTN system reduces all these distances and greatly increases the data carrying capacity.

Glass fiber cabling is far more fragile, and very expensive to repair.

Lexi: "What does concern me though is - and I've seen it
many times in our society with various
projects - we take the cheaper option
thinking we will save money - when it ends up costing
us more in the long term."

But have you also noticed how many projects aim for the 'Rolls Royce' solution and end up falling apart after years of budget over-runs and scope creep? And what we are left with is a messed up behemoth that no-one knows how to fix and endless recriminations. And it still costs us more in the long run.

Which one is the NBN? Or is it that rare ambitious project that's gonna work out just fine?

Dear Graeme M.,

Of course trying anything new
involves taking
some considerable risks - but almost
every human advance is based on experiment,
innovation and adventure

....Dear Graeme M.,

Of course trying anything new
involves taking
some considerable risks - but almost
every human advance is based on experiment,
innovation and adventure

Yes Lexi, with exception to the last five years, as they have been built on missmanagement, incompetence and waste. Not to mention down right lies.

How anyone can even begin to think labor could do anything without stuffing it up defies belief.

We simp,y can't take the chance as their record over the past five years speaks volumes and raises countless red flags, for anyone who cares to see past the spin.

Dear rehctub,

Ah politics. You blame the years of this government
for all our woes. Here's a bloke doing the same thing
as you - but with a wider scope:

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=14893

Enjoy.

From the other thread Lexi...

Well, the author has managed to scare the heck
out of me. We've had doomsayers before
but what about just once one of them would come
up with offering solutions instead of only
condemnation. Wouldn't that be a novelty?

What about the Howard solution Lexi, you know, the one that resulted in JUST 4 detainees before the clever Kevin07 came along, with his bright ideas and decided to fix something that wasn't broken.

What I would say to the author are two things.

One, we choose our politicians from those who the corporate world has either overlooked, or rejected.

Two, name me one very successful business man/woman that isn't a bully to some extent.

Running a large business, such as our country, take tough decisions from powerful, well qualified people.

The whole trouble with politics is that everyone gets a say in who should run the country.

Some won't vote simp,y because the candidate left their wife, some because he/she drives a Ferrari, some pull their vote if they have their HAND OUTS cut back.

People generally vote for what best suits them, and pay little regard for what best suits the nation.

rehctub,

"The whole trouble with politics is that is that everyone gets a say in who runs the country."

Correction - politics per se doesn't guarantee that "everyone gets a say in who runs the country". It's only in "democracies" that we cobble together an imperfect system to try and guarantee a voice to all citizens of voting age.

You got a problem with democracy?

(I always thought that perhaps you'd escaped from the pages of a Dickens novel - now I'm convinced)

Poirot, my beef with democracy is that our democratic rights are gone once we exit the polling both.

Now if we get rid of compulsory voting, many who don't really care, won't vote.

Do we run the risk of never again being a world leader. Without a calamity tony Abbott will soon be pm, and a number of his policies seem to involve either a roll back or downgraded option.
While the mining tax has been a bit of bust, surely the concept of billion dollar profit companies who gain money through digging up our sovereign soil paying more tax on profits is a good one.
The concept of carbon tax or ets is also progressive, once again the current system may be flawed, but its a step forward.
Finally the NBN. It was enough for two independent conservatives to sign up. Sometimes you pay for what you get. And we will be stuck with it. Why can't we leade the world rather than lag again.