I feel the Australian goverment has sold out David Hicks..
He,s spent years locked up with little hope of a fair trial in America...

What possesses a country to allow one of its own to be treated little better than a dog at Americas pleasure?

Why hasnt the Government intervened?

I totally agree Ozgirl

This episode has got to go down as one of the most shameful things in both Australian and US history.

It strikes just so grossly against the fundamental principles of democracy and basic decency.

There is simply no way that we can accept interminable or long-term incarceration without trial of anyone who has been deemed to have broken the law, no matter how guilty we might think they are. This episode puts the US, and Australia via its lack of official outcry, back in the dark ages in terms of human rights, alongside the worst despotic governments and holders of political prisoners.

It shows that the US, which preaches democracy around the world, is only too willing to step right outside the bounds of democracy when it suits.

I am as disgusted as anyone could be that Hicks is still in GITMO, still untried, still held in conditions similar to those imposed upon the worst types of offenders, and still without much prospect of having his case dealt with in the foreseeable future.

Anyone with common sense has turned his/back on David Hicks. David Hicks turned his back on his own country and culture when he went off to train with Islamic terrorists.

What about David Hicks's 'strike''against the fundamental priciples of basic deceny and democracy', Ludwig?

Yes. It would have been better if Hicks had been tried in short time; but, given this man's character, actions and intended actions, all this sympathy for Hicks is way over the top - just another excuse for the expression of anti-Americanism and anti-Howard government.

Feel free to be 'disgusted'about the tardiness of justice for Hicks, Ludwig. But,please, don't go overboard for the nasty little twerp.

“What possesses a country to allow one of its own to be treated little better than a dog at Americas pleasure?”

Isn’t this a perplexing question. Why on earth hasn’t our government maximised it’s lobbying on the US to deal with this matter?

It is not because of our close relationship and some fear of offending America. Our relationship is strong enough for us to be able to vigorously express our concerns.

It is not because Howard wants to show unwavering support for the war on terror. He can do that while still lobbying hard for the basic democratic and humanitarian rights of one of our citizens.

I think it is because we have lost our way with the notion of ‘innocent until proven guilty’ or ‘shown to be guilty beyond a reasonable doubt’. We hold this up as a pillar of our whole system of governance. But in reality it’s a crock of sh!t.

It sits amongst other chronic lies that we consider to be pillars of democracy, such as freedom of speech, equality, the notion that our vote will count where we want it to, or that we are voting for expressed policies rather than being forced to vote for the lesser of two or more evils.

In fact, when you think about it, the condoning of disgusting treatment of Hicks by the Australian government isn’t really outside of our general pseudodemocratic or antidemocratic practices.

So, our government hasn’t launched a full outcry over Hicks’ detention as a matter of principle because…well… there effectively is no such principle (of fairness, right to trial, right to be treated as innocent until shown otherwise by a court of law, right to self-expression, etc) in this country.

Without digging back through countless Google websites, I may be wrong on one or two concepts. But the way I see it is this.

David Hicks, an Australian [or joint Australian/British citizen], was caught whilst fighting on the side of "the enemy". I don't believe that one's birth or citizenship should necessarily mean that you are a traitor to your country, if you are OPENLY fighting for the other side [ie not a spy or fifth columnist]. You may simply hold a different point of view to the current govt of your own country. As such, I see him as a prisoner of war.

It could be said, by a stretch of the imagination, that the war in which he was taken prisoner is still going on, therefore it is justified to continue to hold him prisoner. But why is he still being held in a US prison? Why not in Australia? By what right has the US continued to hold him prisoner? After all, the peacekeeping action in Afghanistan is a joint effort of which Australia is part, not the US versus the former most influential Afghan force.

If he is judged to be a serious threat to peace, then by all means keep him locked up. But he is entitled to a trial and I believe his trial should be in Australia and conducted under Australian rules. And his trial should have been over and done with years ago.

And the fact that this situation has been allowed to drag on has to be laid at the feet of the current Australian govt.

Yes, it is very unsatisfactory that no trial or hearing of any sort has occured in David Hicks case.
His problem is that this is a war with new undefined rules.

It is like these statements we hear that an American action has killed so many civilians. But all the insurgents are civilians !
He was a civilian that it is alleged was running around with military style weapons and traing in military operations.
My understanding of the Geneva Convention is that it covers military personal, ie people with a uniform, a paybook and a serial number.
It also covers captured civilians. That is those unarmed people not in uniform.
David Hicks and his contempories fell between these two stools.
There is no provision for an army of civilians.
It is in fact a contradiction of terms.

That it is a war is hard to contradict. But where is the enemy ?
Enemy troops are normally held until the cessation of hostilities.
Wounded soldiers are sometimes repatriated. However fir soldiers are never repatriated, just to rejoin their army.
If he wants to be considered a soldier he can be held until the cessation of hostilities.

An opportunity to have your say on the US handling of David Hicks:

http://www.getup.org.au/campaign.asp?campaign_id=45

I agree with Bazz on this one. David Hicks is a prisoner of war and the usual justice system doesnt really apply to him. Maybe he could be tried with treason. Usually the penalities for treason are pretty severe. Could his supporters handle those severe penalities if he was tried and found guilty.

The Americans could let him go back to Afganistan but then he may join the enemy and take up arms against them again they cant be sure about that.

The letters his stepmother handed in to the authorities when he was first captured that he had sent to her about his conversion to Islam and fighting to bring Islam to the world were fairly incriminating.
She said later that she wouldnt have handed them in if she'd realised how damaging to his case they were but she was confused in the beginning when the media frenzy first started.

David Hicks - people, can we just move on, please! I'm more worried about women and children being killed in Darfur, AIDS orphans being recruited as child soldiers, the families of the victims of 9/11, the torture and imprisonment of journalists and lawyers in China and young Australians about to be executed in Indonesia.

Ozgirl
little buddy
I didnt know you had your own forums going. No wonder why I have not heard from you.
So when is this trial in the US set for?

Wendy lil buddy .. thats completely fine..I know you have been going hammer and tongs at Yabby..someone has to keep that wayward fella on his toes..
Trial Wendy?Ill look it up and get back to you..

Nice to see you Wendy.:)

lil b
ha ha just kidding
got u back.
Just google it. I was sure uSA were bring him to trial?
I dont know really Ozgirl its a difficult one.

They say under a war zone they are arrested and taken to a prison of war holding.

Thats being the case they dont usually get a trial it seems.

That being the way of it I suppose his only cause of action would be to say he was there on a holiday so came outside of those grounds.

I am not much help to you am I sorry.
You would know far more about it than I.
The letters apparently were clear he was there to fight so 6 of one and half a dozen of the other.
He has changed his name now three times?
Does anybody know if hes still wanting to fight for Islam?
His lawyer seems a top guy.
leave it with you.
Yabbies waiting for you to help pack his wool bag so dont forget the poor liitle guy

Wendy thanks for that...no I only feel for the poor thing locked away worse than an animal and Aus. not doing a thing to help.

But it seems this topic of not much interest to most pple these days,
It is a tough one Wendy..I even rang parliament house one day and got the usual 'Mr Downers not in right now, can I take a message?'

Noone seems to care.

Thank you for at least supporting my thread a bit..

Also did you know that Yabby has his own thread?..Im still thinking besides the hanky what in the devil do you pack for a guy like Yabby?

Jocks?socks?..a thermos flask?
hhmmmm.

liitle b

A mouth Gaurd.[grin]

Hes found a new buddy. The pig farmer. Maybe we can ship them off together.

The perfect match Yabby and the pig farmer . One can not think of it with out a sniker.

Rex

I think your pretty on the money.

MatR Thinker.

Are you saying your concerned about the death of these people because you think they are better than Hicks.?

Wouldnt it then be fair to argue that at least they got a trial and were found guilty?

Or that the drugs they were carrying had the protential to kill more than poosible Hicks had he chosen with a single fire arm?

Do you have any thought about Hicks dad being nominated as father of the year?

Do you think he should have straight away declined?

Wendy you are teaching me a few lessons about how to stimulate debate
on these danged things(forums)that is.
Your a pro at this.

I just think that Australia has to stop pandering to the US and stand up for one of its own..

No matter if we like him or not a country has no right to lock someone up forever and not even give him a chance at ANY kind of trial let alone a fair one.

Isnt it supposed to be innocent til proven guilty?

Did I miss something?

Who are you working in 'conjuction' with on this thread Wendy?

(how do you write laughing histerically out loud in shorthand?) lhol I suppose!

Pigfarmer ..why do have to represent your namesake?

Yo
Liitle
B

Well you can be sure of regular posts from your mate Mrs piggy at least now. Thanks!
I was just thinking that considering people can say as they wish on this thing perhaps Yabyy and Pig Farmer might like me to post their names.
After all We think thats fair considering the vicious attacks on our organisation. What do You Think?
[Sorry Off post]

Ok So whats happening with Hicks? Have you got him out yet?

Mate when you do can you bring him up here to me?

I wouldnt mind a few words if thats ok with you?

Its the forum your having when not having a forum.

Its how the boys settle their disputes.

You know its a code thingy.

ok Now I have you going give me all you have got.

You have a big heart ozgirl I like that.

I have a open forum here that Hicks lawyer put up.

Do you want me to post it?

Dont forget to knit yabbys woollen booties.

Miss piggy might like some too as she is saying she is going with him now.

Funny about that she bagged live exports so much when we spoke.

Oh well

She had better take her own pocket money because I dont think Yabby

Would buy you A pork Pie.!

Take another snort ozkiddy.

Ozgirl
Hello
I have a message from wendy For You. She has asked for you to call her reverse charge. She is not posting anymore.
She said its important.
The number is 0755392369.
Sorry to crash yuour post on David Hicks. Perhaps I can post some more on it later.
I am leaving soon for Canberra.
I wish you well Ozgirl. Your a dag and please give her a call reverse charge if you will.It doesnt matter if its late.

Ozgirl

David Hicks is a traitor. He fraternised with the enemy!

Stick to lobbying against the disgusting practice of the live sheep trade to the middle east. These hapless creatures deserve more attention than this turncoat

In response to Leigh (12 Sept)

“Anyone with common sense has turned his/back on David Hicks.”

My great concern is the lack of due process. Process that sits right at the centrepiece of democracy and all that democracy stands for. The right to a fair trial, and to NOT be condemned before a fair trial, unless there has been an uncoerced admittal of guilt.

“What about David Hicks's 'strike against the fundamental principles of basic decency and democracy', Ludwig?”

Any criminal or alleged criminal or alleged offender of any sort has struck against the fundamentals of basic decency and democracy. But they are entitled to due process within those same fundamental principles of basic decency and democracy, are they not?

Leigh, I have sympathy for Hicks inasmuch as him being thrown into a dark-ages dungeon of antidemocracy. But as far as his offences, or alleged offences, I remain neutral.

What I am expressing is absolute outrage that he has not been tried. I don’t think I could use strong enough words to express my level of disgust for the duplicity of the US’ government in their treatment of this man while apparent upholding democratic values.

Time for a reality check, we do not all think alike.
And not even from my seat on the left of centre do I blame America for Hicks foolish acts.
Yes the yanks have been a bit harsh on him, but can the facts be that he had turned on his own people?
And in working out that we do think different how can some be so sure they alone are right?
David Hicks is no victim unless its of his own foolishness.

Ludwig,

I find it strange that you can remain neutral about Hicks's admitted association with a terrorist group, but sympathise with his current predicament. He is not a victim. He brought it all on himself. Sure, by our lights, he should be put on trial as soon as possible. But I think we need to make some allowances for the fact that he is not accused of ordinary crimes, and there is very little precedent to use as a guide on how to handle his case.

Perhaps if you knew the things we in SA know about his early life and his attitude to his fellow human beings in his younger days, and when he was at school,you might not sympathise with him. He is not a nice person, Ludwig.

If you have sympathy to spare, aim it at his father. It must be pretty awful for him. He understandably still sees the rat as his son, and the little creep has certainly put him through the wringer.

I'll reserve my feelings for the victims of people like Hicks (even if he never got around to committing atrocities, he was certainly training for them).

Cheers.

Leigh

I’ve learnt not to trust a lot of things I hear at face value. And doubly so in times of extreme outrage and some level hysteria, such as that following 9/11. We know how things can get twisted, exaggerated and blown out of all proportion.

I will believe that Hicks had grave ill-intent after and only after a court has found it to be so. In the meantime I will remain neutral.

“Perhaps if you knew the things we in SA know…..you might not sympathise with him.”

I don’t sympathise with him. I am neutral.

As I expressed in my last post, it is the antidemocratic carry-on that I am so strongly opposed to – the lack of trial and eternal incarceration.

You agree that he should get his day in court ASAP, and should have had it a long time ago. But the nature of the crimes or the nature of the person should not have anything to do with the right to a fair trial…. and reasonably quickly after the event of his capture.

Leigh I doubt you have any inside knowledge about David Hicks that 'we in sa' have..not.

The fact is NOONE deserves to be locked up for years without his case being heard or at least being sent back to his own country..

The charges allegded against him are just that 'allegded' ..that means innocent until proven guilty..

Ill bet if it were yourself in his shoes youd be hoping like hell that pple on the outside had enough faith and belief in the justice system that you might at least get a measure of justice for yourself and that they might just put their hand up for you..

As for Hicks so called crimes..I believe nothing of what I hear and even less of what I read and a fraction of what I see..only Hicks knows the truth and it would be a damning day for humanity if like you, we were devoid of compassion and justice for our fellow human..
Because thats what he is.