Labor is going to scrap the Coalition's chronic disease dental scheme costing $1.5bn p.a. and replace it with a $bn scheme. That should improve the dental health of those that can't afford it.

There is only one catch:

The abolition of the first scheme is later this year, and the new scheme only starts in mid 2014? This means that the disadvantaged will have no care whatsoever for 18 months or more.

What does labor intend to do in this gap period? or is this simply done to fill the cavity in their budget?

thats funny..in qld i heard...labrats are clearing up two of the libs SCEMES..cutting two biollion..then putting 4 billion..into their sceme

at least the kids get it early..simple fillings..etc
currently howards system's allowed the dying..to finaly get their roitted teeth extracted iout,..via nice expensive root cannal treatments

anyhow the new sceme..will fix the potholes..
not fix roads to no where...howard attacked the wrong end

this is one thing juliar might have right
[plus getting a bonus 2 billion extra..to fil yet otherr holes

see howards was great for those '/inn the know'
who allways seem expert at accesing free govt funds..tax breaks etc

anyhow the 4 billion..dont for the young..will bear more fruits that remidying those near death..WHO SUFFERRD THEIR WHOLE LIFE*

fix the kids..give then pain free govt service*
but one good thing dont fix the truelly vile..both patry patcies deliver to their bosses..[capitalist..privatising govt services..for easy cash..by service charge's...acces fees,.

for what used to be free
govt is SUPPOOSED TO BE THERE FOR YOU
not the big moneyed elite..capitalising on the pepoles impoverishments..

a pox on both ya houses

Smoke and mirrors - it looks and sounds good until you get into the detail of what is actually being done.

And what is being done to cause the smoke and mirrors ?
If you don't have dental health, your whole system can be poisoned.
I understand it can be up to 2 years to get in for any sort of work.
If you are not in extreme pain, you get put on the waiting list.
Surely that system is in need of upgrade.

579,

From November 2012 to June 2014 there will be no waiting lists, as there will be no service what so ever.

I'm certainly no expert on this, but I would imagine that eighteen months is a fairly short period of time in which to get all the aspects of the scheme properly organized.

No government, of any persuasion, can simply announce a policy of this scale on Day 1 and have it fully implemented on Day 2.

Considering the number of dentists out there, the need for the details to be hammered out with their cooperation, and the need to establish rort-proof claims and reimbursement processes to everyone's satisfaction, eighteen months seems quite ambitious to me.

But as we know, a government under Shadow Minister would have it done in a snap. Isn't that right, SM?

Obvviously there is going to be an election.

Dental scheme promised by the government. $4 billionP/A

National Disability insurance scheme $4-$8 billion P/A (No one knows) Disabled should not hold breath waiting.

Today $430 million scheme for Pacific Islander women?

Keep it coming. Labor buying votes. I wonder how many of the promises will be delivered?

Rudd made a promise to pay WA $200 million P/A for something or other but that has not been forthcoming.

As an election looms we can expect more of the same. Labor specialises in buying votes. Expect another cash handout to those on welfare before the election and more promises.

Last i heard the government debt was $166 Billion, so would be more now. Must be close to $200 Billion by Christmas. Hey, interest at 5% is only $10 Billion P/A. Not much if you say it quick.

But this government will keep buying votes.

Don't worry that is what the Carbon con (tax) and mining tax are for. Buying votes and other wasted political favors

Pericles,

You have completely missed the point. The chronic disease dental scheme for all its supposed faults helps a lot of people, but is going to be stopped in Nov 2012. The new scheme which has been announced, costed and some details already given is not going to start until July 2014 nearly 2 years from now. There is a period of 19 months where there is no cover whatsoever.

Your comment that it takes time for a government to roll out something is besides the point. The question is why the chronic disease scheme is cancelled before there is a replacement?

As for the actual time of roll out, considering that the government has been planning replacing the CDDS for years, the implementation should take less than a year. However, given that it took the government nearly 4 years to investigate Thomson, it looks as they couldn't organize a piss up in a brewery.

Is the SM saying the people on the two year waiting list as of december will be deleted.
By the time you have chronic mouth disease you have other problems as well.
The govt; never had anything to do with Thomson investigation, it was an orchestrated event by the lib infiltrators.
There will be an election in about 14 months, so you have a lot of sweat to lose yet.

Polite and reasonable as always, Shadow Minister.

>>Pericles, You have completely missed the point.<<

I wonder, have you ever taken time out to consider, in your quietest moments, whether there may be more than one way of looking at a situation? Oh yes, there was that time back in 1968, wasn't there...

But you soon put that setback behind you.

When Tony Abbott set up the chronic disease dental scheme, he planned for it to cost $90m a year. Through a combination of poor process design, massive overservicing and widespread rorting it now costs $80m a month. It is, in other words, a failed scheme.

So, faced with the choice of continuing a failed scheme that was enriching all the wrong people and failing in its objective, or closing it down at the earliest reasonable moment, the government took the obvious decision.

Quite a few people, including dentists and the Department, but excluding the rorters and you - think this was a fairly realistic outcome.

On the topic of the implementation phase, you point out that...

>>...considering that the government has been planning replacing the CDDS for years, the implementation should take less than a year.<<

Less than a year, eh?

I presume you have some experience in this field? Would you care to share your thoughts on the timing of various phases of the roll-out, and how quickly it would happen under a Shadow-Minister-led Department?

AFAIK, Tony Abbott was the Health Minister when the libs cut the
number of doctor training places at universities. We now have
a massive shortage of doctors in Western Australia and are having
to recruit them from places such as Bangaladesh and Nigeria, to
cope. So the question of Tony's judgement is an important one.

Mr Abbott has no judgment, that has been proved time and again. Telling the Chinese how to run their affairs, is bad enough. And now he wants Nauru to work like it did during the Golden Years. Situations have moved along since then. No doubt it will cause a flush of court cases, and cost bucket loads for something that could have been avoided.

Pericles,

After 5 years of planning, it would not require a further 2 years before the first phase started to be implemented. This is either incompetence typical of Labor or a cheap shot to save the budget.

Also if the CDDS was such a failure why keep it going for 5 years. PS how many billionaires used it. I would guess close to zero. The rorting does exist, as it does for medicare, but this is a small portion, and is just an excuse to close the scheme to pull the money out of treating the underprivileged. As quoted:

""Government statements that the Medicare Chronic Disease Dental Scheme was widely rorted are not supportable on the available data," Professor Zoellner said.

Dear Pericles,

Perhaps Shadow Minister would prefer that
we all go back to Dentistry - under the "Golden
Age," of Menzies - where everyone had their
teeth pulled and ended up wearing dentures?

Who needs expensive root canal - when its cheaper
to wear horsey choppers?

SM is worried the budget is going to balance. That's his latest worry.
This govt; does not slash and burn like the noalition lot. You were told by the worlds best treasurer that the budget will balance. If adjustments have to be made along the way, so be it isn't that what it's all about. To predict a balance 12 months in advance without adjustment is unrealistic.

By completely sidestepping my question, Shadow Minister, you confirm my suspicion that you are merely stirring the pot in your own inimitably one-eyed fashion.

>>Pericles, After 5 years of planning, it would not require a further 2 years before the first phase started to be implemented. This is either incompetence typical of Labor or a cheap shot to save the budget.<<

You patently have no clue how projects work. The impression you want to give is that there has been this army of government people, slaving for five years to produce a plan that takes another year and a half to implement - thus proving to your own satisfaction that they are incompetent.

Get real. Developing a policy that will stand the test of time is not the work of a couple of policy wonks doodling on the back of a napkin. It doesn't even work like that in real life (i.e. business, as opposed to government). Especially when you are replacing a policy that has been shown to have so many holes in that it wouldn't even pass muster as the rubber duck in your bathtub. At the very least, you want to avoid showing the same defects as the existing plan.

Also - as any competent business manager will tell you - there is a vast difference between the formulation of a policy, and its implementation. Check in with Craig Dunn, and ask him how much time was spent on the planning for the acquisition of Axa, and how much on the integration. Have a word with Alan Joyce about the difference between preparing a plan for Jetstar's Asian expansion through a JV with China Eastern, and getting their first three planes in the air.

You are being deliberately blinkered, having convinced yourself that everything the government proposes must, by definition, be flawed.

But that is pretty much all that we can expect from you, is it not.

You are certainly right there. SM thinks the public servants are standing around waiting for the govt to come up with an idea that will keep them busy, for the next couple of hours. That is where Gonsky report comes in, because there is no one within govt available to do it.
But Mr Abbott will find some excess labour in the ranks and sack 20,000 if he ever gets the chance. Just so he can feed his ego, and cause unemployment, because business likes unemployment. But what business doesn't like, is borrowing expensive money from banks and other private institutions.
Mr Abbott has a huge problem with women in places of power, something he should get counseling on.

Pericles,

Unfortunately you chose the wrong man. I have been the project director of projects of several hundred million, and have far more experience than you. Of course I can only talk of private sector work. While it can take years for projects to get the go ahead, but once this happens, it seldom takes more than a month or two for implementation to begin on the ground, and 6 months before implementation is fully under way is stretching it.

This policy, is essentially extending medicare to dental treatment for "approved persons", and implementing people to review people against these criteria. This utilizes existing dentists, and structures for review similar to the CDDS, and would supposedly extend bulk billing to these medical professionals too.

If the policy and criteria have already been set, then Pericles, what on earth takes 2 years to START implementing.

My opinion, is this is the classic bait and switch tactic. This promise of a dental nirvana in mid 2014 is meant to deflect attention from the money grab that leaves vulnerable people with no dental care whatsoever from 2012.

Got hold of yourself , while there is a waiting list of two years, no one will be missing out. Till 2014 to clear the backlog.
This project is 4 billion, so it's best to get it right.
You lot are continually looking for holes to fill with excrement. That is what this term of noalition is all about. No policies, No idea, No hope.

SM,

Of course you haven't mentioned the fact that we've been playing catch-up ever since the Howard government abolished the Commonwealth Dental Health Program in 1996....which severely impacted dental health in this country.

But of course you have, Shadow Minister.

>>I have been the project director of projects of several hundred million...<<

Once again you ignore the invitation to examine two projects that are in the public eye, but instead expect us to recognize your own, unsubstantiated, status as the-one-who-knows-all.

And just by the way, you have no way of knowing this to be true:

>>...and have far more experience than you.<<

Nevertheless, you insist on continuing with your wild generalizations, as if all projects have identical characteristics:

>>While it can take years for projects to get the go ahead, but once this happens, it seldom takes more than a month or two for implementation to begin on the ground, and 6 months before implementation is fully under way is stretching it<<

So why is it taking Jetstar eighteen months to get mere three short-haul routes up and running? Given also that a) Jetstar has been established in the region since 2004 and b) China Eastern is China's second largest carrier with over three hundred aircraft.

Or to paraphrase you, "if the joint venture and operational parameters have already been set, then Shadow Minister, what on earth takes 2 years to get three measly planes in the air?"

Be honest with yourself. You're just stirring, as usual.

Pericles,

I see you just focus on the one issue and forget the other inconvenient ones. Firstly, why cancel the CDDS when while it may have flaws, it clearly benefits many needy families.

Secondly, considering your comparison of Jetstar's new routes and gov health which are so different, I have no reason to believe you have any proj management capabilities.

For example Jetstar's rollout is defined by regulation. Planes, pilots and ground crew can be in place in 6 months, getting approvals takes longer.

As I mentioned before, nearly all the infrastructure is in place for the new dental scheme, perhaps you could prove yourself by pointing out what would push out the implementation by 2 years.

Several political commentators think this is a cynical cash grab, and so do I.

579,
You may (or may not be) surprised to learn that the number of Public Servants grew at 3 times the annual rate under Howard than it has under the ALP, even despite the outsourcing of various groups to the private sector plus the sale of various government enterprises.

The chances are that most of the people Abbott will sack will be the same ones he hired when in he was government.

Political commentators, are allowed their opinion, unfortunately, it opens the door to speculation wether it be right or wrong. Then again you get the ones that are politically biased, which should not have air-ways to peddle their bias.
The coalition have a hit list, public servants, education, health. All the big ticket items that somehow can do more with less. As they say.
Do the coalition have any other members other than Mr Abbott, or is that it.

I would have thought it obvious, Shadow Minister.

>>Pericles, I see you just focus on the one issue and forget the other inconvenient ones. Firstly, why cancel the CDDS when while it may have flaws, it clearly benefits many needy families<<

A programme that was costed to provide $7.5m per month in benefits, but is instead rorted to the tune of ten times that amount is clearly a case of government waste, and should be terminated at the very first opportunity, would you not agree?

But simply cancelling it would be poor politics, so it needed to be replaced by a more useful and better targetted programme.

>>Secondly, considering your comparison of Jetstar's new routes and gov health which are so different, I have no reason to believe you have any proj management capabilities.<<

Ahem. I would deduce from this that your own projects (which you carefully decline to use as illustration) are similar in scale and scope to that which you are criticising? Otherwise, my point - that projects differ in scale and complexity, and that you were casually lumping them all together as "projects" - still stands.

>>For example Jetstar's rollout is defined by regulation<<

Exactly. Every project has different hurdles to overcome. Simply dumping a new programme on the nine thousand or so dentists in private practice is a significantly different proposition to simply ordering a bunch minions to do your bidding - which, I suspect, would be far closer to your idea of project management. Each of those dentists is a small business, which has its own fiscal priorities which are separate from those of the government.

Think of it as trying to run one of your projects with nine thousand independent contractors, and then tell me with a straight face that you could complete it in six months.

Pericles,

Your comment "A programme that was costed to provide $7.5m per month in benefits, but is instead rorted to the tune of ten times that amount"

Is blatantly false (or a lie). A medical program designed in 1996 costs more in 2012 with a larger population, medical costs rising far above inflation, and increased scope does not add up to rorting.

Professor Zoellner Of Sydney University Dentistry who has been involved stated categorically: "Government statements that the Medicare Chronic Disease Dental Scheme was widely rorted are not supportable on the available data." Perhaps you could provide proof of the scale or the rorting other than parroting Labor's lines. That the CDDS was a failure is bollocks. Its purpose might differ from what Labor wants to do, but it did what it was supposed to.

What Labor has done is cancel this aid policy and offered sweet bugger all for 19 months.

As for the types of projects I have done, they include design and building of factory and power generation plant. I am painfully aware of getting regulatory approval, and the road blocks to starting a project. However, for this "project" the road blocks are few and far between, and with you have not yet shown any.

The 9000 odd dentists do not need to be organised. They all have existing business and billing systems. All they need is information as to who is eligible for this dental care, and how much and who they bill. The government bodies that determine eligibility already exist, and need to know the rule changes. The body (medicare) that pays the bills also exists, and simply needs guidelines to operate under the new parameters.

The only obstacle to starting this implementation by mid 2013 is will power from Labor, until then the CDDS provides some cover.

I am aware of Professor Zoellner's opinion.

"Ms Plibersek on Wednesday reiterated the scheme was poorly designed and open to rorting. But Sydney University's head of oral medicine Hans Zoellner insisted the CDDS was "fantastically successful", with 1.5 million people treated since late 2007 at a total cost of $2.7 billion."

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/breaking-news/govt-adds-4bil-to-dental-scheme/story-e6frf7kf-1226460586896

It's a matter of take your pick, isn't it. And as I hinted earlier, you have once again chosen the opinion that most closely supports your knee-jerk position, which is, predictably and inevitably, that this government can do nothing right. You appear to have no interest in anything that might broaden your view, or cause you pause for even one moment.

And I'll see your Professor Zoellner, and raise you Mike Morgan, Dep. Head Melbourne Dental School at University of Melbourne, Stephen Leeder, director of the Menzies Centre for Health Policy at University of Sydney and Ian McAuley, lecturer in public sector finance at University of Canberra.

Who think it is rather a good plan.

>>As for the types of projects I have done, they include design and building of factory and power generation plant... However, for this "project" the road blocks are few and far between, and with you have not yet shown any.<<

Only because you are not listening, or even pausing to think outside the blinkers of your conservative prejudices.

>>The 9000 odd dentists do not need to be organised.<<

That's exactly what I mean. You view the roll-out of this policy as some kind of command-and-control exercise - a bit like project-managing the design and build of a factory, or a power generation plant.

>>All they need is information as to who is eligible for this dental care, and how much and who they bill.<<

Not really. Imagine for a moment that you are one of Australia's nine thousand dentists in private practice. Will this programme increase or decrease your workload, and increase or decrease your revenue? And what will you do about that?

I'm sure that somewhere, deep down, you care for the livelihood and aspirations of Australia's small businesses, dont you?

This scheme was specially designed for people with chronic diseases. What the Federal Government have done is show a lack of compassion and understanding with extra needs. People with cancer, HIV, HCV and so on often have chronic gum problems and lose their teeth unless they see their dentist at least once in 4 months. Having no teeth, or having to wait for false teeth, could be detrimental to their health. This is why the Dental Assassination is really worried about this mistake of abolishing such a good scheme.
The new dental scheme is already covered by the dental schemes in most states like NSW, which offer financial subsidies in the country or the Sydney Dental Hospital, which is free for those on the Health Care Card. It doesn't change anything much in NSW. But the Dental Hospital is under funded and has a horrendous waiting list, as you can imagine. The States know their systems better than the Federal Government. Those who need subsidised dental treatment, especially via the Hospital system should not have to wait in long lines. Medicare can't afford this, it will snap, especially with the failed amalgamation with Centrelink. The Medicare system for those with Chronic illnesses should be left alone as Medicare can only just cope with it after new pressures have all but grounded it to a snail's pace.

Pericles,

You have yet to show me anything that indicates wide spread rorting of the CDDS. While TP claims that millionaires can claim against this scheme, I have yet to see any proof that any millionaires have done so.

"You view the roll-out of this policy as some kind of command-and-control exercise" - Actually quite the contrary, as with existing GPs the dentists compete for the work, and get paid once the work is complete and billed out. Based on what you perceive of dentists' capabilities, you must be a public servant. Small businesses tend to be very flexible, and I have yet to meet small businesses or practices that are likely to turn their noses up at extra work. Unlike the government, I cannot see a small business taking more than a month or two to get ready once they have access to the required information.

I do care about small businesses, you obviously have no clue about what they can and cannot do.

Fascinating, the erroneous conclusions that you are able to arrive at, Shadow Minister, with the absolute minimum of evidence.

>> Based on what you perceive of dentists' capabilities, you must be a public servant.<<

Your observation above is wrong in every aspect.

My perception of a dentist's capabilities - particularly in the private sector - is that they have a very physically tiring job. (Which is why, incidentally, I request the first appointment of the day, before fatigue has a chance to set in.)

Adding more appointments to their day has two key dimensions. The practical daily limit (see above), and the impact on their operating margins. A successful dentist with a thriving practice does not have much - if any - room to expand their day. And the fees, calculated on dollars per hour, are generally lower on a government tariff. With the kind of fixed costs they bear, this is not a trivial consideration if they are displacing higher revenue-earning capability.

So the cohort of dentists who will provide these services will be by definition less successful. Of course, they will be less likely to have a problem with the fees - in fact, it might even represent an increased margin for them - but you might want to ask whether this segment is the one that you, personally, would trust with the health of your teeth.

>>Unlike the government, I cannot see a small business taking more than a month or two to get ready once they have access to the required information<<

For the record, I have never worked in the public sector. Furthermore, I have little faith that public servants, as a class, are able to replace a lightbulb without first writing a two-hundred-page manual, submitting it to endless reviews, having it circulated to every single office worker (requiring the appropriate confirmation of receipt), before finally electrocuting themselves the first time they use it.

When these folk are required to establish a protocol for dentists in private enterprise, they first have to wrestle with the fact that they don't even speak the same language.

Pericles,

I love how you suck this BS out of your thumb. It has become amazingly clear that you have little to no knowledge of either project management or dentistry. Your assumption that all good dentists are 100% busy, and those that are not are incompetent, is particularly heroic

Dentists are typically more busy at peak times and not so busy otherwise. Clients that are more flexible time wise, e.g. the unemployed, can fill the gaps so to speak, without the need for extended hours etc. The new dental plan would mean an approximately 10-20% work load increase, of which 10% could be accommodated in a heart beat.

The start of the program could begin the roll out in January if the government actually had the cash and the competence.