With only days left before the worlds largest tax on carbon, and the mining tax are due to be implemented, hands up who thinks this government can implement both, without stuffing them up.

Sorry, No surprises but I vote NO!

Rehctub, if you think our government can’t proceed with the carbon and mining taxes without stuffing them up, then you must think they haven’t stuffed them up yet!

I thought you were of the very vocal camp that thinks that the very introduction of these things is an enormous stuff-up by our government.

If our government made no attempt to deal with climate change and peak oil or to try and make our mineral wealth work better for all of us, they’d be stuffing up enormously.

It is those who oppose these efforts who are really stuffing up here.

Ludwig, my main concern with the carbon tax is that it is simplyy a licence to pollute.

As for the mining tax, it's simply unfair on miners, as they already pay company tax and, indirectly, they generate an enormous amount of taxes, paid by the companies that feed off or support mining and, these are taxes that simply would not be generated if not for mining.

Of cause, supporters of the tax will find some reason to disagree, as they will simply say these people/companies would find work elsewhere. Yea right!

If you wish to generate more wealth for all, then you simply change the way royalties are imposed, or, you increase royalties.

An increase in royalty is in fact an increase in the cost of producing minerals and can be easier 'passed on', as opposed to a tax, that is unable to be passed on as it is a tax on profits, not an increase in production costs.

A royalty is simply the 'buy price' for minerals, just like a butcher buying a cow. If the price of beef increases, this can be passed on, whereas if the butchers tax goes up by say 20%, this can't be passed on, as it not an increase on the cost of goods.

That's the main difference.

As for sharing wealth, As I have said before, if the likes of Victoria and Sydney want a share of our wealth,( minerals), then we should also have a share of theirs, pay roll tax, stamp duty etc.

If you wish to share state taxes, then ALL STATE TAXES should be pooled and divided up as per population. Not just mining wealth, as is what the MRRT is about.

Nobody can Tell me what is unfair about that?

I suspect they agree, but just don't want to admit it. The old, what's yours is ours, but what's mine is my own.

Continued.

Ludwig, continued

On the other hand, I am confident that the miners would be happy to pay the MRRT, in return for the government funding ALL FUTURE EXPLORATION costs.

The government simply wants to have their cake and eat it.

What I can tell you is that if this governments actions of introducing both these taxes costs one single job, it will be one too many and, they are gambling with the one industry that has growth.

As I have said before, responsible gamblers only gamble with what they can afford to loose. Even the government tells us that.

Do you think we can afford to loose or effect mining?

Now given this governments record of IMPLIMENTATION (not the passing of legislation), which is what they crow about, do you think they can implement both these taxes and not stuff them up?

<< Ludwig, my main concern with the carbon tax is that it is simply a licence to pollute. >>

Agreed, rehctub. It will need to be progressively strengthened if it is to have any real effect.

Yes I think our government will stuff up on it, because they won’t strengthen it. They are getting such a hard time now that they’ll be very hard-pressed to increase it. But really, the fault here lies with all those that oppose it, not so much with the government itself.

Thanks for outlining the differences between the mining tax and royalties. But the end effect is pretty much the same in terms of both increased costs for miners and a better return to the Australian community, isn’t it. And I presume that raising royalties would have been harder to achieve, otherwise our government would have done that instead, yes?

<< If you wish to share state taxes, then ALL STATE TAXES should be pooled and divided up as per population. Not just mining wealth, as is what the MRRT is about.

Yes ideally all tax revenue should be pooled and much more equally shared. But the main purpose of the MRRT is not to better distribute taxes; it is to increase the value of our mineral wealth for ordinary Australians, is it not?

continued

<< … if this governments actions of introducing both these taxes costs one single job, it will be one too many … >>

Now I have to strongly disagree. We can’t be held to ransom by the fear that actions done for the good of the majority might result in some job losses.

Various things affect jobs in the mining sector. Jobs come and go all the time.

And the MRRT will presumably result in more activity conducted for the good of the community far away from the mining sector, which will create jobs.

<< Do you think we can afford to loose or effect mining? >>

The MRRT, which really is just a very small change in the balance of wealth returned to the general community rather than the mining companies, won’t cause us to lose mining nor negatively affect it to any significant extent.

I’d also say that mining activity needs to be reined in a bit. We’ve surely got enough of it happening at the moment. Let’s slow it down, spread out the boom times a bit and hold on to some of our primary resources for a longer period.

I am fully resigned to an Abbott government after the next election.
However, one of the few upsides will be the pleasure of watching rechtub desperately searching around for someone to blame all the worlds ills on.
By way of a reality check, rechtub, you may want to look at today's The Age, (can't post a link as I read it on my pad and I'm writing this on my laptop), where you will find that Australia is the ninth lowest taxed country in the world.
So, if you must endlessly whinge about taxes perhaps you might want to move to one of the other couple of hundred countries that are taxed more heavily than Australia is.
Anthony
http://www.observationpoint.com.au

Ludwig, a tax on profits is nothing like an increase to production costs.

Whereas increases can be passed on to the purchaser, tax can't, as it is a tax on profits, not an increase in production costs.

Nobody can put their price up simp,y because they pay too much tax.

If royalties increase, the cost of our minerals would have to increase, or at least have a better chance of and this would still have the desired effect in increasing the wealth for the states. Increased royalties would also have a lesser chance of costing jobs.

You say, But the main purpose of the MRRT is not to better distribute taxes; it is to increase the value of our mineral wealth for ordinary Australians, is it not?

No, that's what royalties are about. Increase them and you increase the wealth.

...And the MRRT will presumably result in more activity conducted for the good of the community far away from the mining sector, which will create jobs.

Your word 'presumably' further amplifies the fact that it is a gamble with no assurances it will work. Again I emphasize that one should only gamble with what one can afford to loose.

....The MRRT, which really is just a very small change in the balance.......

You're kidding! This is a huge tax on after tax profits.

I have said all along, tax the eggs, not the chickens so the chickens can continue to lay the eggs.

...I’d also say that mining activity needs to be reined in a bit

I agree, trouble is, mining is a bit like pokies in the pubs/clubs, they simply can't survive without them now. We are in the same boat.

The extra tax would be nice saved, rather than relied on to replace some of the wasted billions and fund moving forward.

Unfortunately, money can only be spent once.

My opinion on why they have chosen the tax instead, is so thelikes of VIC AND NSW can enjoy the spoils. Now as I say, that's not a problem, but all spoils should be shared.

Only one thing is certain,none of candidates can manage it.
Abbot,does not want it will not be able to unwind it and anyway wants to give us a carbon tax with a different name.
Gillard,has no idea how to manage anything but hopes if she can throw enough money around people will forget it
Milne,will call the United Nations Administrators in once we go broke

Anton, while I don't disagree with you on taxes, what you have to take into account is our rather small population. We simply don't have enough bums on seats to support both our life styles and our forever increasing hanger- oners.

To simply over tax someone simply because they make what is considered as, 'too much money' is absurd in my view, especially when the mechanism is already in place to increase the return for the people, that being royalties.

Now as for Tony Abbott leading us, that's also a worry in a way, as this means our leader will be far lesser a leader than the one Rudd replaced, who, incidentally was replaced by what labor described as better leader. You know, the 'real Julia', although one could get confussed as it appears there are a few of these.

She should be so far in front it's not funny, in fact, the polls should read, Julia first, daylight second, but the plain truth is she and her cabinet ar simply incapable of administering anything without it either costing more than it reaps, or, being completely stuffed up. Take your pick, as there are many failed trophies in the cabinet to choose from.

As I have said many times, the passing of legislation is like the passing of wnd if the implementation phase fails.

Enjoy the little time you have left to ponder on what could have been with labor, while the rest of us suffer in waiting.

Now while I would like to tell you that I will be ok, the tall poppies would have a field day, as working hard and investing wisely seems to be something that is despised by the under achievers we have here on OLO.

But although it may just be a struggle at times managing ones portfolio, at least I know my kids will be set for life. Tax or o tax.

Four days till the worlds biggest carbon tax takes effect.
Mining is overheating, and the barrier reef is in danger.
While Butch is having trouble managing his portfolio, he is in favor of slave labor, and all this from a butcher shop.
Cando Campbell can not do.
Sack the public servants, but do not whinge about the lack of services.
Stop all road construction, that will be good.
By all means look after the miners, and funk the barrier reef.
Tourism in Qld will take the hit, at a time when there is an all-time high, in the number of geriatric gypsies on the road, caravan parks are taken over with miners.
Even without infrastructure, mining will go ahead, at all cost.

I would like to thank Juliar for introducing this odious tax in spite of public opinion against it and contrary to a promise she made. She has all but guaranteed a long long federal coalition government.

579, tourism. The main force that drives tourism, is the value of our dollar. Anything else comes a distant second.

There has been a saying about local tourism for years, that being, "see Australia first, but only if you can afford it". Bottom line, it's simply unaffordable at present, as you can get a OS holiday for about the same price as a flight to a local tourism hot spot.

As for the Barrier Reef, it has been under pressure for decades from farming and reckless tourist operators.

As for mining the reef, I fully support a NO GO ZONE, no exceptions.

Public servants.
The real problem is where the money is wasted on top end positions. For every top end worker, there at least one observer and several under worked support staff.

But hey, it did create jobs I guess. Ha Ha!

As for winding back mining, gee, if only our billions THAT'S BILLIONS hadn't been flushed down the toilet we may be able to, but in reality, we need it now more than ever as we literally have nothing else left.

I can't imagine how the worlds largest tax on carbon is gong to make that any better.

As for CN, gee, I recon you must be the last of the die hard Bligh supporters, just a pity 95% don't agree with you.

Now to butcher shops.
A butcher, after having served a four year apprenticeship, at least in my day, now earns less than 10% more than the person who cleans up after they Finnish work.

And you fools wonder why we have a skill shortage. Simple, why bother, when you can sweep floors, have a few kids and earn more money than a butcher.

BTW, butchery was good to me, at least until the past five years where I lost about half a million. But hey, we all have to take a small hit occasionally. Whoops, sorry about that

The odious carbon tax will be here in a few days, and you will not enjoy it.
The results will be catastrophic for the noalition.
The leader who does not support bad policy, Has got the blood of 90 people on his hands.
Butch. I am talking about home grown tourism, not foreign tourists. They are selling Gold coast apartment bookings for $150 for a week, in Vic.
WA is stuffed for travelers and now QLD is going the same way.

579, it's all about confidence. I warned five years ago that this government would effect people's confidence, but hey, what would I know.

You see, it's not rocket science, as people will spend money if they know they can replace it. However, there are very few out there today who can honestly say they have a job for life. And that's the main problem when governments interfere with employers and stuff up most of what they touch.

The most absurd part of this carbon tax is that it has the potential to cost jobs, and will do nothing to address the worlds climate issues.

Look rechtub, I kmow you viscerally hate Labor, but it's rarely prudent to let one's hatred distort reality.
First, you blame this government for a loss of confidence. Remember a little event called the Global Financial Crisis? You think that might not have affected confidence? Of course it did.
Heard of a little country with a few financial problems, named Greece? You think that isn't affecting confidence? Get real.
As for the Carbon Tax,, you're right insofar as physically it will have little if any impact on global warning.
But, here's the thing. Politicians think short term, and this is a long, very long, term prpblem. Hence, it's practically impossible to get world leaders to come together with a concerted action plan.
But, as one country, couragously to quote the Secretary General of the UN, after another takes steps, then the psychological effect is huge.
And that is why Australia, as the world's highest per capita polluter, taking action matters. The psychological effect will get us all that one - big - step closer to a global solution.
Anthony
http://www.observationpointcom.au

Anton, I don't hate labor, just this labor. I changed my vote when labor dumped Bob. I would change back again if they did it for me.

As for the GFC, yes, you are correct, however, you may also recall that there were worrying signs surfacing about Americas sub prime mortage debts when labor came to power.

Now the one thing you don't do is take unessesary risks when there is trouble looming, like taxing an axe to IR laws, laws that helped our country boom.

So here we are again, similar scenario, things are looking shaky globally, only worse, as the trillions already spent have not fixed the problems.

So here we have labor, once again implementing changes (carbon tax) that COULD potentially cost hundreds of jobs and willing to gamble on a tax that just could effect the one sector that is doing well, mining.

As I have said before, there are two ways to spread the wealth, either buy shares, or, increase royalties.

Increased royalties stand a chance of being passed on, whereas a huge after tax, tax can't be.

So no, I don't hate labor, just this labor.

As for TA having blood on his hands, how dare you. Keving Rudd and Julia Gillard are the ones with blood on their hands, as it was they who abolished a working system.

Sure, their system would have required some changes by now, but the roots were there and the boats had stopped coming.

Easier to improve something that is working, than to chuck it out and start again, which is what labor did.

They need to remember, if it ain't broken, don't fix it!

Did you see Joe Hockey's address to parliment yesterday?

If you didn't, I suggest you find it as it pretty much says it all.

Rechtub,
Two points you make are problematic.
First, the Coalition had a plan re the boats, you say. One that was working, you say.
And I reply, yes, but the rules were illegal under international law.
And, far worse, the rules themselves caused huge human suffering.
Second, you blame Labor for axing Workchoices, yet you ignore the fact that workchoices took an axe to just rights workers fought for over many decades.
Your philosophy seems to be based on two ideas.
One, that the end justifies the means. Believe that and you can find a way to condone anything.
And two, that the only thing that counts is the economy. It's called the Scrooge phenomenon, where people believe that financial wealth is the most important thing.
Not a recipe for happiness, as evidenced by your long litany of unhappy, angry posts.
I strive for a world where humanity and justice are at the forefront and where wealth is merely a tool to build a better world.
Anthony
http://www.observationpoint.com.au
Anthony
http://www.observationpoint.com.au

Ant,

What part of the pacific solution contravened international laws?

TPVs, and off shore processing comply with the UNHCR charter, and interception of vessels heading for Australia is allowed in maritime law. That leaves what?

The Malaysian solution of sending unaccompanied minors to a country with a record of aggression again refugees however--?.

With the latest recommendations on refugees, will fail the senate because the noalition will oppose it. They are about disruption at any cost.
Slipper and Thompson, are the work of an agenda to gain political advantage, by a shonky noalition.
The noalition back bench should revolt against Abbott, and see reality as it is.
The GFC never happened as far as Butch can see, wool blind, and one eyed. slave labor, work choices [ if you don't like it buck off, work choice no one. ]
The labor govt; has put forward legislation, in an attempt to solve a problem, but will be disallowed by the opposition, who are content to drown people instead of allowing this govt; to attempt a resolve.

Shadow Minister, I can do no better than to support 579's assertion.
He describes the situation perfectly.
Anthony
http://www.observationpoint.com.au

Ant,

I take that as an admission that no international laws were violated by the pacific solution, and that you like other labor posters are quite happy to repeat lies if it suits your purposes.

I am surprised that you support sending unaccompanied minors to be beaten.

You know they'll be beaten?
I lived in Malaysia for four and a half years, and I don't "Know" that. especially as they've given guarantees.
Sounds like you've been drinking Tony Abbott's bathwater again.
Anthony
http://www.observationpoint.com.au

Ant,

Sounds like you've been drinking Bowen's bathwater again. Are you sure that they won't be beaten, or that they are any safer than the other asylum seekers?

Considering that the biggest threat comes from the "informal" militia who prey on the non residents, who have as yet not complied with laws that prohibits assaulting women and children, I can't see that a non legally binding "guarantee" is going to carry any weight.

I suppose that this would make Labor guilty of child abuse.

579, take a pill.

Anton, two words come to mind, confidence and productivity. Both have had a labor axe taken to them, thanks to this crowd.

There is also a third word, that's underemployment, a word unheard of prior to this mob.

Yep, those changes to IR laws really did make a difference. Didn't they!

Many workers now find themselves out of pocket, because despite the fact that labor have fought hard for their penalty rates, they are useless if no overtime or weekend work is now available.

Yep, they sure are a clever mob those labor people, as they have provided the highest pay rates, but hours have been cut and many now find themselves under employed.

As they say, you don't have to be retarded, but it sure is an advantage at times.

But please remember those famous words, NO WORKER WILL BE WORSE OFF.

What a load!