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The Forum > General Discussion > Bloody idiots!

Bloody idiots!

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I think that’s got real potential TRTL.

I’m very much in favour of empowering the public to undertake regulatory roles in any way that can be implemented.

“Actually I think there’s always going to be deaths…”

Yes. But they can be reduced to a tiny fraction of the current loss.

“….and more training won’t necessarily make a huge impact”.

Not in isolation, but in conjunction with a greatly improved regulatory regime, it surely would. Besides, how can we condone drivers being on our roads who are ignorant of basic safety margins and risk factors and of the appropriate actions to take in a variety of circumstances?
Posted by Ludwig, Friday, 13 April 2007 5:19:49 PM
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For the person that asked the monetary cost of each fatal accident; I think you will find that the latest estimate is $1.5 million per fatal collision. This takes into account just about everything you can imagine.

For those of you that think a part of the solution is to empower 'members of the public' to enforce road rules need to have another think about it. Where would they get the power to pull people over and demand their details? Who would be responsible for them? Who would oversight their activities? Domestics and Traffic Stops are among the most dangerous of activities performed by Police, so how will they protect themselves - give them guns too? The list goes on. To do such a thing would be just ridiculous.

Now for a fact (NSW only); the monies generated through all tickets issued by the Police goes into consolidated revenue ie: to state government's coffers. What they do with is up to them and Police have no say in it.

And the quip about the job of Police being easy and non stressful, well that's just plain ignorant and shows an obvious dislike for Police and what they do. Whilst you are entitled to your opinion, please try and keep it factual and as best you can, objective.

Mr. Ludwig. We have discussed at length traffic issues and the difficulties of enforcing them before. The biggest problem I see so far is that everyone seems to have a 'simple' answer to the problem. Unfortunately it is far from being simple and the solution would require changes from the Premier right the way through to the public. As you know it is hard enough getting any one group to agree on the same thing let alone all of them.
Posted by Quiggley, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 4:03:08 PM
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Quiggley - I never suggested anything along the lines of pulling people over.
There would be no need for authority. Photographing the plates and feeding them to a central authority could do the trick - the people would be little more than mobile speed cameras.

Besides, there would be a basic licensing process, which would involve a small degree of background checks for criminal history and basic training. Aside from the amount of training, how is this different to police, bearing in mind that people wouldn't be asked to pull people over. I only suggested pairs on the off chance somebody spots one and acts aggressively, actually pulling over - I don't see how this is different to any other crime, and the operators aren't being asked to interact one-on-one with speeders.

I've thought about this topic quite a lot - you dismiss it as ridiculous, fine, but give more reasons than the vague one you included. I suspect I'll have a retort handy - this theory may not be accurate, but I think it has merit for discussion at the very least. You've given me nothing concrete to suggest otherwise.

I certainly didn't say policing was an easy job, though I see other posters have expressed that. The reason why I put this suggestion forward is to take off some of the load of their work - I know police officers who work very hard, and don't get paid nearly enough to cop the kind of abuse they receive.

So, if you've got any holes in my theory, please put forward some specifics - otherwise I guess I'd respond in kind, labelling your argument ridiculous.
Posted by TurnRightThenLeft, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 4:38:23 PM
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Hello Quiggley. Long time no chat.

You misunderstand my desire to empower the public to have a part to play in law enforcement. It certainly wouldn’t extend as far as people pulling others over, or approaching law-beakers in any way.

It would only extend to making competent complaints and collecting the necessary evidence to take to the police in order to cop the law-breakers.

We should all be able to do that now. I mean, what sort of wobbly situation is it when members of the public can’t do anything about situations in which they are subjected to heightened risk, offensive behaviour or other illegal antics on our roads?

Quite frankly, in just about any situation other than on our roads, we WOULD be able to make a complaint about things like this and have it treated seriously by the police. But for some bizarre reason, the roads are different!

I don’t think that the whole road safety issue is all that hard. It is easy in theory, and if we could just put our hearts into it, it would easy in practice. There ARE relatively simple answers, based around a much better policing regime and better driver-education and training.

I haven’t encountered too much disagreement on this.

The most disappointing thing is the relative lack of interest, even on a forum such as OLO. This indicative of the fundamental problem – a lack of interest across our society. We've become blasé about the road toll.
Posted by Ludwig, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 5:36:11 PM
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TRTL. There are numerous reasons why it wouldn't work. The basic idea of of having people acting as pseudo authorities if fraught with danger, both to the public and to themselves. I don't know how far you would suggest these people be trained, what security checks they would need to pass and/or backed by the government, so some things may not be relevant.

My first concern would be the type of people this sort of job would attract. I'm sure we can all recall an incident where a security guard, bouncer and alike have acted as if they were 'the law', well outside their area of training and authority, and they have to undergo specific training and background checks to get a security license.

Who would supply the vehicles they use and the equipment they would use? What if they had an accident whilst doing their duties? There are many more specifics, but I'm guessing you would have them trained and or authorized to a standard of Special Constable or similar.

You say they wouldn't be responsible for pulling the vehicle over. That sounds good, but then who does the rest of the follow-up work? You will have to track down the registered owner of the vehicle and ask them if they were driving and/or place the form of demand on them to supply the details of who was, then make any further inquiries etc. Pretty much the same thing that happens now if a member of the public comes in and makes the same complaint, with or without supporting evidence ie: video footage, passengers etc.

What if the vehicle they are watching is driving in such a dangerous manner that it should be pulled over then and there, but they don't or can't and they have an accident? I'm personally against all this suing rubbish, but that's not going to make it go away, so they or their employer may be the subject of a law suit by both the victims and the offenders/their families etc. Don't laugh, I've seen it happen, especially when certain minority groups are concerned.
Posted by Quiggley, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 6:04:35 PM
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TRTL: unfortunately the restrictions of this forum make a thorough discussion of such complex matters very difficult.

Then there is the issue of any audio/visual evidence that these people may obtain being subject to the rules of evidence and the accountability of same. As Mr. and Mrs. Public they are not expected to abide by these restrictions, but as pseudo law enforces, they would. They would also have to be trained in court matters, brief preparation and evidence giving. If you go this far, you may as well go that bit extra and train them as Police Officer. Thus allowing them to act on the spot and intervene in other matters etc.

How far would these people be expected to go to obtain the necessary evidence? Would they be bound strictly to the road rules themselves, or could they break a couple of them in the interests of getting someone doing something more serious - I think you can see the problems in this area.

Then who would they be employed by? Who would train them? How much would they get paid? Who would want to do it if the pay and working conditions weren't reasonable. The logistics of this are just too complicated, or as I have said before, train them as Police Officers.

TRTL: My comment about Policing and stress leave... wasn't directed at you. I think it was Steel who made it.

Hello Mr. Ludwig. I see we still have the same aim, just differ on the route to get there. Unfortunately I think one of the most poignant statements you have made is; 'a lack of interest...blasé about the road toll' is probably the hardest to get around. For without the public jumping up and down, the politicians will never devote the funds necessary to make a decent dent in this issue.

It will require a holistic (I hate buzz words) approach to address this problem, not a simple, narrow focus one. Roads/speed limits, driver education/licensing, Police numbers & enforcement, courts/penalties all play a major part and none can be ignored.
Posted by Quiggley, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 6:33:24 PM
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