Today's approval for a 2.9% pay rise will drag us even further down the tube. What is it with these morons in Government ? We don't need a petty pay rise, what we need is pay cuts in the public service. 2.9% is an insult at $17 per week. It does zilch to help the workers & great damage to employers.
We need to stop this nonsense because if we don't our Supers will be worth zilch by the time we retire.
Why can't a worker access his Super yet ex politicians can. Why does a worker have to contribute more to his Super than a politician ? The whole show is crook. At the last politicians pay rise they got hundreds of dollars a week more.
Both sides of politics need to get handbooks on how to manage or they could ask pensioners for advise.

Indi, most worked dont contribute anything to their super.

As for worrying about what pollies can or can't do, if you wish, you can become oe yourself.

Now as for the pay rise, another examp,e of just how out of touch this lot are, a d remember, THE UNIONS wanted a lot more than the $17 they got.

They, along with the government are irresponsible in their actions.

While I understand the pressures on families, it's government responsibility to provide welfare, not small business.

I can't believe that they have done this at a time when jobs are being shed everywhere you look.

But then again, they also believe we have 4.9% unemployment.

So what do we expect!

most workers don't contribute to their Super...
rehctub,
ever wondered why ? They can't afford it ! Plus they should only need a decent pension anyway. Super was introduced as a voluntary contribution but quickly got hijacked as Governments realised it could help them to lessen Pension payments.. Pretty callous manipulation really. Those who get the big Supers aren't the ones contributing, most of theirs is heavily subsidised by countless indirect & sly means. Like people receiving rent allowances & travelling allowances to live in their own homes etc.
In my area at least it is like that & I believe most so-called remote areas have the same conditions . Bureaucrats getting more allowances a week than local workers get in wages.
That's why increasing wages contributes more to our bad economy. Cutting excessive pays in the public service & consultant sorts would benefit the whole country not just a handful of pointless & useless bureaucrats.

Indi, most mining staffs, who live away from home, not in mining camps, are on about $200 per day TAX FREE as an allowance.

Some even fly home to the likes of NZ on their two weeks off.

If I were calling the shots, this recent pay rise for low income earners, would have come from the mining companies, in the form of a levy against their payrolls.

Instead, government, the unions and FWA have decided to place additional financial burden on the sectors that are already struggling, like retail, hospitality and toirisum, to name just a few.

They, governments, just don't get it, but, by the time they do, it may be too late.

Retailers are saying that for many of them, it's the worst conditions they can remember for thirty years.

I can vouch for that, I the money made in butcher shops today is less than half it was 15 years ago, and this half is worth about 20% in today's values.

I just can't believe governments can be that irresponsible.

I just can't believe governments can be that irresponsible.
rehctub,
Sad but true. It's coming to the point where the electorate will need to demand a referendum for just about every policy proposed because the bureaucrats simply can not be trusted anymore.
I say cut the numbers of those useless morons by letting them clearly know on how tiny a string they're dangling from.

Very quiet out there, even the labor puppets are holding their heads in shame, as they can't believe how irresponsible this government are.

As if small business, the countries largest employers, are not doing it tough enough, this irresponsible government allows and supports this.

Thank god the unions didn't get their way.

Of cause people are struggling, everyone knows that, but that's not the fault of the many thousands of employers who are about to be hit with the unknown effects of the carbon tax.

Then there is the reckless actions of the worlds smartest man, telling the faithful less than six months ago that we are the envy of the world, only to then tell them recently, to brace themselves for a rocky road ahead.

This government are economic vandals.

Election please!

Its about time government got onto small business and recovered a small portion of the tax these crooks are ripping off this nation. The plumber who rips off with "the job will cost ya $1000, but I'll do it for $950 cash," no GST, no company tax. Then there the motor mechanic "The job cost ya $500, I'll print ya out a quote, just use that for ya receipt. by the way I only take cash no card" The TV turkey fix the box "That's $300 ya owe me, cash mate," do I get a receipt "Na left me receipt book back at work, I'll drop it around tomorrow." Ya right he will. Got a small shop selling sandwiches, I add the GST of course but do I declare it, no all these sandwiches were sold as loaves of bread, no GST." Mum 'works' in the business as an employee but she a phantom never seen in the place. the young bloke need a new PC for home I'll get him one through the business. The store with not paper in the register, the barber who cuts 50 heads a day by only declares 30.
The big rip off in this country is not workers, not welfare recipients, bui business, its a multi billion dollar rip off. Why do you think they were so keen on the GST, another avenue to rip Australia off.

Then there are those who have a big tizzy fit when low paid workers get an insulting $17 a week. "These nasty workers are ruining the country". The same people say nothing when some grubby CEO of a public company gets his board mates to vote him a 40% increase to $10,000,000 a year. The very same turkey helped reduce the bottom line by 50%, no thought for the share holders.

Paul, you are absolutely 100% correct.

The biggest rip off merchants in this country are businesses, both small and large. Many of them get all sorts of tax breaks, many can afford to legally manipulate the system, and the illegal cash economy has always been MASSIVE.

People, don't blame and begrudge the lowest paid workers a modest increase. Go for the "real" bludgers instead .... businesses. But you won't I'm sure, because that doesn't conform to your ideological outlook.

My friend and his employer. I have a friend, I'll call him Clark, not his real name, who works in a medium sized retail store, a small business, with 6 employees, the boss owns 3 stores altogether, part of a chain franchise set up. they advertise on TV so not a small group. Clark is paid $17/hour.
There is no union. The boss does the roster every week not every 2 weeks as required by the award. As the staff turnover is high, Clark is mostly rostered on 6 days a week. Is Clark paid overtime for day 6, no, is Clark paid loading for Sundays, as per the award, no. His employer can't afford it, according to him. This is the same bloke who just leased a new BMW and had 3 weeks family hols o/s. At first when Clark was rostered on 6 days and said something the boss came back with "I'll give you an extra day off during the week to make up for it." never happened. The boss likes to have weekly team meetings after the shop is closed. Naturally these 1 hour meeting are unpaid. Clark has been rung at home when off, and told there is a team meeting at 5.30, you must be there. these team meeting are generally announced on the day, pity if you have something to do, the meeting have to fit in with the boss, According to Clark the meetings are noting more than a winge by the boss "business is not good, (remember the BMW and holiday) and people have to up sell and work harder." At a recent meeting the boss had a new one "Everyone has to be in 15 minutes early everyday to get the shop ready." again unpaid.
con't

con't
I said to Clark Why don't you join the union and stick it up this bloke. "I'm scared anyone talks union and they are out the door. I have to pay nearly $300 a week just in rent." The other thing my mate said was the mark ups you would not believe. Something bought wholesale for less than $2, on the shelf for $19.95 and people pay it. Nothing has less than 100% mark up often 500%. This guy makes the best welfare cheat look like a rank amateur.

About a year ago, workers on the minimum wage were granted a weekly pay increase of $26. When they asked for the same again this year, they only got $17.

My belief is that Carbon Tax Compensation has been subtracted from the poorest workers' wages.

I guess this fits in with the plan to also hammer welfare recipients into the dust.

I wish people would stop giving small to medium sized businesses a hard time. The real killers of the workers, taxpayers and the nation are Big Businesses (multi-national corporations). Once they have knocked everyone else out of contention across the board, their charges will be astronomical.

Paul, if it's all so easy, why the hell don't you do it.

Don't tell me, let me guess, it's because you couldn't.

You come across as a lefty public servant/academic, one of the real rip off merchants. The only reason you don't like business folk, is because you are jealous. You'd love to be ripping off every one yourself, but you are not smart enough.

Of course you know "they" do, because it's what you would like to be doing, if only you could.

Pray tell me Paul, if it is so easy, why;
Do most small businesses fail within 5 years of starting?
Are there so many empty shops everywhere?
How you know all about all this. Did a bureaucrat mate tell you?

Them please let me know what they do to get these margins you prattle on about, those figments of the imagination of someone with a nasty jealous streak. I'd like to share it with some I know who are going broke

I used to supply stuff to hardware stores. Their gross margins were about 40%, if they could sell their stock for recommended retail price. They rarely could. When you consider their stock holdings, & overheads to turnover, no wonder so many are closing down.

In my town we have lost 2 hardware stores, 4 real estate offices, a computer store, a super market, 3 electrical/appliance stores, a spare parts shop, 2 butchers, & a fruit shop, & there are about 10 premises empty, that have been empty so long I can't remember what was there. All this is in a growing area.

As you know all about it, why don't you come & make your fortune here, running your own business? Give it a go, & stop winging about the few who do make it work for them

I agree with Hasbeen any person found ripping off the tax payer, such people should be assigned to a work gang, cleaning up national p[arks, starting in the far north. Living in a tent city in the bush."

Hasbeen, along with the welfare cheats would you agree that the tax cheats should do a stint at 'tent city'. A bit of re-education for another group of fraudsters. Just quoting your words

The GST has turned even the smallest business person into a free tax collector for the government. At one time, Labor was talking about paying people $22 a week for one hour's work performing this task.

And the result? All talk and no action.

Paul 1405,
Ah yes, the old small business is ripping the country off. Are you sure it's not the public service bureaucrats ? I mean those who get $165/day travel allowance, $140/day meal allowance, an average of two flights /month to some meeting, whilst back in town stay in their own house yet still get the allowances, seven days /weeek. Those thousands of them whose Super is all paid for etc. they're not the ones ripping us off ?

Ah, it's beautiful! Everyone all fired up. Great stuff! That's the Spirit.

;-)

Let me give you all the hot tip. If you want equitable reform, do not vote for either of the main stream parties, as all you are likely to get at best, is a shuffling of the chairs, a few departmental renames, and a bit of tinkering around the edges.

If you don't like the *Greens* then pick someone else, anyone else, but not the mainstream for !#%!'s sake.

Hasbeen

I must clear up a couple of your misconceptions in relation to me.

You say. "if it's all so easy, why the hell don't you (Paul) do it.

Don't tell me, let me guess, it's because you couldn't."
"As you know all about it, why don't you come & make your fortune here, running your own business? Give it a go"

Is this a reference to operating a small business If you deem operating an Engineering/Design Business for over 5 years in the 1980's as operating a small business, I have indeed operated a small business. I must say at no time did i find it necessary to become a member of 'the small business mafia' and operate outside the law. My business had many clients both large and small, I contracted work out to other professionals and had many financial dealings with clients and contractors etc, always working within the law operation an ethical and financially successful business. You may ask why did I stop, the short answer I was made on offer, as they say 'to good to refuse.' a job in 1992 that paid $54,000/ year, not bad 20 years ago, it was equal to what I grossed in 1991. After illness and retrenchment 10 years later I gave away engineering altogether not worth the stress,and changed my focus in life, working in retail hardware actually I am 59 and well off, by most standards, no mortage, no debt, money in the bank as the say work part time, about 20 hrs aweek, keeps me busy. Those in small business that rip off. are either greedy or marginal and of course there are the honest ones. Hasbeen Which group are you in?
cont'

cont'
"Stop winging about the few who do make it work for them" If you call pointing to the rip off artiest and thief as 'winging' then I'm a winger.
you say:
"I used to supply stuff to hardware stores. When you consider their stock holdings, & overheads to turnover, and piddling 40% margin no wonder so many are closing down."
Would not have anything to do with Bunnings and now Woolworth with this Hardware supa stores. Remember "Lower prices are only the beginning."
The make up on things blister pak screws etc in hardware is not 40% often 200-300% someone needs to buy at the right price, no margin in timber, the nett margin for Bunnings is 14%, with a very good cash flow the best in the Westfarmers group. Woolies are trying to get into hardware for that very reason.)

Also I must add, I have never ever worked for the public service.

Yes, Woolworths has opened a number of huge Masters Hardware Stores across the nation.

The last time I checked, Woolworths was No. 3 in the top 2000 companies operating in Australia, and has a very wide base to its business e.g. supermarkets, department stores, clothing, books, electronics, hardware, $2.00 shops etc.

After a union delegate succeeded in fully unionising one of their stores, the union went into bat for the workers for better pay and working conditions, but the Labor government only listened to Woolworths.

Never believe that Coles/Wesfarmers and Woolworths are in a price war with one another. They are working as a duopoly to cut everyone else out, which is why I generally do my grocery shopping at the Supa IGA.

I don't think we need to be Albert Einstein to know who is benefitting most from the demise of small to medium sized businesses and the crucifixion of workers.

A dangerous nexus is developing between workers' wages, taxation, money paid to superannuants, and Centrelink payments. The government needs to collect more tax from workers to support its welfare recipients, but the multi-national corporations (such as Woolworths) have shareholders to pay and empires to build.

According to the ACTU, 40% of Australian workers are either employed in casual jobs or underemployed. This means that very little tax is being collected, and much less money is being added to superannuation funds by employers.

A rise in superannuation contributions to 12% will further cripple smaller employers. Employer groups are also now calling for super to be deducted from workers' wages.

At the same time, migrants are being used to drive wages down and land even more Australian workers on the scrap heap to live off the increasingly low levels of income taxes collected. The latest increase in Newstart was only around $4.00 a week, enough to buy the cornflakes, but not the milk to go on them.

The government also says it will increase the Tax Free Threshold from 6-18%, at the same time as it is still amassing a huge foreign debt and welfare bill.

No wonder both sides of the parliament are foreshadowing further reductions in welfare to an Asian style system. As we know, sole parents have now been landed on the dole.

The government also still has disability pensioners in its sights after cutting many people off, despite claiming an interest in developing a National Disability Insurance Scheme.

Hmmm .. some intersting comments *LoriKeet* Incidentally, what kind of *LoriKeet* are you?

..

When woolworths came into the area of my abode back in 1998 they crushed my little local bakery, who made the best preservative free yummy true blue pies, amongst other things.

And now what do we get offered? I'll tell you - transfat laden poop in a stale container.

I have an IQ in the genius range, and have studied what goes on in the world for around 12 years.

I am also a member of the Democratic Labor Party here in Queensland.

Sorry, I made a mistake here regarding the Tax Free Threshold, which is being lifted from $6000 to $18,000.

Forget about my comment which said from 6-18%.

I am also a member of the Democratic Labor Party here in Queensland.
Lorikeet,
I'd appreciate it if you could name just a couple of things democratic about Qld Labor.

Sorry, I can't think of anything democratic about the ALP.

I got blocked from the media for 8 weeks, as soon as an election was projected by Anna Bligh.

Two days after the election, a letter I wrote to the local rag was printed. Since then, everything I have written has been printed in the paper again, except for direct references to Labor.

Does your surname commence with a Q?

Lorikeet, I was interest in your parties policies, had a bit of a read. As a Green there are many policies of the DLP I don't agree with, but there are quite a few that I do agree with. like the Greens its good to see your party has gone to the trouble to develop detailed policy. i much prefer a policy I don't agree with than no policy at all.

Posted by Lorikeet, Tuesday, 5 June 2012 3:21:09 PM

" ... Sorry, I made a mistake here ... "

No doubt that's on account of your high I.Q. *LoriKeet* <snicker, snicker> but at least your big enough to (proactively) admit it. Ah, "boomerang karma," (for want of a better term,) tis a beautiful thing to behold. Conversely, *Lizzy Winza* knows the value of practicing humility in the face of the public, especially from up on a high point.

..

*Lori* couldn't your party have thought up of a name more uniquely interesting than the "Democratic Labour Party." If it was a business name I'd have to wonder initially pre checks whether it would be accepted on the basis of its proximity to the (Australian) Labour Party.

..

That's not to say of course that I don't luv *LoriKeets* with their furry tongues and raucous behavior ;-)

*Paul*

Yes, it's good to have policies I believe, and no doubt it is appealing to a certain segment of the electorate, but I have to wonder whether amongst the "swinging voters" that their are a not an insignificant number that pay little heed to such matters, and are more susceptible to "political messages" contained within simplistic, emotional rhetoric.

Based on the fact that the noalition keep spurting out no end of their one liners on "lack of trust" & "incompetence," I suspect that their rigorous and on going surveys is telling them that this strategy has no small degree of impact and effectiveness.

I personally think that they have over played their hand though regards to this, and like whingers in the work place, people get sick of it and the general conservative attitude of the electorate visa vi how public discourse should be conducted is such that some of them potentially will take offense to the extent of voting elsewhere.

In order for that to occur though they need to be provided with alternatives, and in that regard, any alternative other than the noalition or their down streamers.

Perhaps it would be worthwhile for the *Greens* and others to lace their policy based comments with a few secondary and tertiary streams of one liners, that peak the interest by addressing the needs and concerns of the electorate.

The media has been waying in with a prolonged relay regarding the overt and distasteful vitriol and aggression that has been all too prevalent in recent times and this presents (in my mind at least) the possibility to exploit a potential weak link in the "dragon's scales."

The true agendas of the Greens are not listed on their policy statements.

The Democratic Labor Party has been around for many decades. The ALP and the DLP used to be the same party. They parted company largely because the DLP recognised the communist agendas of the ALP and refused to work with them any more. I think we have all recently come to know that the ALP should be renamed the SLP (Slave Labor Party) or CNCP (Corporate Neo-Communist Party).

The Socialist Alliance, Australian Greens, Katter's Australian Party and the Democratic Labor Party are marching to the beat of the same drum in several ways, but the first 2 are communists trying to fool the people into believing they are Pro-Australia.

Lorikeet,

You say: "Australian Greens are communists trying to fool the people into believing they are Pro-Australia."

Lori, I take exception at the above comment. I am not a member of a political party that is out to 'fool' Australians. You generalised with "Greens are communists". How many Green members do you know, and how many have you spoken to in depth to determine they are "communist".
I have spoken with 100's of party members. I find the overwhelming majority to be progressive people committed to social justice. If being a progressive committed to social justice is being a communist, then I and the vast majority of Greens are communists.
I have refrained from attacking the DLP of 2012, although at 59 years of age I am well acquainted with the DLP of the 60's and 70's a party that did then 'fool' the Australian people as being 'democratic' and 'labour', labels far from reality. In fact the DLP then was noting more than a right wing neo-fascist party run by catholic lunatics obsessed with communism, which eventually brought about its downfall, seeing it vanish from the political radar. I had hoped the DLP of 2012 had 'come of age' and divested itself of illusions, the 'reds under the bed' rubbish. Am I expecting too much to think perhaps the leopard has changed its spots?

DreamOn,

At least in the short term of the political cycle I agree with what you say.
"susceptible (voters) to "political messages" contained within simplistic, emotional rhetoric." The good old scare campaign, its been extremely successful for the conservatives over and over again, for as long as I can remember, they just keep changing the simplistic message. but Australian have been 'well off' during those times and there has been no real need for voters to think greatly about policy, direction etc of political parties. I think in the longer term as peoples economic and social conditions change, and not always for the better, then voters develop e a need to become far more politically aware, politics then has a greater impact on their lives. The danger is if conditions move to the extreme then the extremists come to the fore, with simplistic emotional rhetoric, a more extreme scare campaign.

You say:
"Perhaps it would be worthwhile for the *Greens* and others to lace their policy based comments with a few secondary and tertiary streams of one liners, that peak the interest by addressing the needs and concerns of the electorate."

Could not agree more, the use of positive one liners is good and should be encouraged in politics.
In all the campaigns for the Greens I have worked one, our candidates are all very concerned to never be seen as running a negative campaign. Something they say over and over again at campaign meetings etc.

I have been acquainted with the Greens, including an executive member, and a very high profile person for around 8 years. I also know some Greens voters and members, who are lovely (but often misguided) people.

Most parties have various factions and even a few extremists. Most people who belong to various parties don't fully understand the agendas to which they are working. This includes a lot of those currently sitting in the parliament.

Very few seem to be aware of the undemocratic processes being inflicted on our nation, but luckily the general public are much more astute.

Posted by Lorikeet, Friday, 8 June 2012 12:40:38 PM

" ... Most people who belong to various parties don't fully understand the agendas to which they are working. ... "

Well, go on then *Lori,* why not share some of your insights with us if you will?

..

" ... Very few seem to be aware of the undemocratic processes being inflicted on our nation, but luckily the general public are much more astute. ... "

I think *Pericles* would have a field day with that one.
<snicker, snicker>

but we wait with bated breath nonetheless ..

"Very few are aware of the undemocratic processes being inflicted on our nation, but luckily the general public are much more astute."

Ho, Ho, Ho..... : )

Life is full of paradoxes.

The general public know when they have been sold a crock, even if they don't fully understand all of its circuitous machinations.

Lorikeet,

The general public is mostly apathetic concerning the bigger picture, consumed with vitality only for his little patch of careworn responsibility.

" A world of ants with insurance policies." (Thomas Mann)

Lori, You say "I have been acquainted with the Greens, including an executive member, and a very high profile person." That's 2
Then you say . "I also know some Greens voters and members, who are lovely (but often misguided) people." These are obviously not the communist members, as they are "lovely people" and we all know from a right wing perspective communists by nature are not lovely people. Did the aforementioned 2 admit to you they were communists, or did you deduce that from the fact they kept calling you comrade and had Russian sounding names.
You say: "Most people who belong to various parties don't fully understand the agendas to which they are working." Does this apply to you, a party member, and the DLP?
How on earth, could you or me or anyone for that matter "know" what most people who are members of political parties understand or don't understand in relation to the agenda of the party. Please enlighten me as to where you have obtained this factual knowledge.

I have spent 8 to 9 years examining what goes on in the world. Our party leader, one Senator and an upper house MP in Victoria have let me know of their recent experiences of politicians in the parliament.

A lot are career politicians who simply go with the flow in order to keep their jobs. Some of the people elected know little of party policy and are simply driven by vested interests outside of the parliament.

At the recent by-election in Anna Bligh's seat, I spoke with people giving out HTVs for the Greens. I have found that a lot of Greens members support a clean environment, but not many of the other policies including:

Abortion (open slather)
Same Sex Marriage
Home Births
Euthanasia
Bestiality
Global Communism
Peasant Lifestyle
Excessive Empowerment of Animals (often supported by Vegans)
Devaluation of Human Beings (as above)

I recently received 2 plastic bags in which to put unwanted clothing, shoes, handbags and books for collection. One came from a charity supporting disabled people, and the other from the RSPCA.

On the collection days, I checked out how many filled bags had been left out by local residents, and here's what I found. The number of bags filled in support of animals outnumbered those filled for the disabled by at least 4:1. I think it is also significant that the disabled bags were delivered and collected first.

Similarly, according to a scientific project on the ABC, scientists are now holding 50,000 knitted body suits for the endangered Little Penguin, with 2,500 more arriving every week.

I think it is a dangerous situation when Australians are more pro-animal than pro-people.

Lexi,

Please point me in the direction of these Green policies you seem to want to peddle, you lob in rubbish with truth. With fair and reasonable policies that I personally support such as same sex marriage, home births and euthanasia
You go on then to add your own rubbish bestiality, global communism and something called peasant lifestyle.
You then add more of your own distorted view of the Greens with rubbish about excessive empowerment of animals (often supported by Vegans) and devaluation of human beings.
One policy many Greens support which I don't support fully is Abortion, I only support it in relation to life threatening danger to the woman as for your comment of supporting Abortion open slather, that is a view supported by a small minority of Greens. However I support sex education, and the available options for the prevention of unwanted pregnancies.

"At the recent by-election in Anna Bligh's seat, I spoke with people giving out HTVs for the Greens. I have found that a lot of Greens members support a clean environment, but not many of the other policies." On the day how many Greens did you actually speak too? is the answer one. I assume on this day you were handing out HTV's for another party. Let me guess which one, as I can't see that there was a DLP running you may have been pushing the HTV's for Family First Party, if that was the case you spent to much time grilling the Green and not enough time pushing the FFP who scored a huge 1.28% of the vote. I throw your own words at you:
"The general public know when they have been sold a crock, even if they don't fully understand all of its circuitous machinations." How true Lexi, just take a look at the support for the DLP and FFP, almost zero.

Lexi from your street survey of bags and then you add in something about body suits for penguins and you have come to the startling conclusion that Australians thing more of animals than people. Amazing powers of deduction

Yet again, abusive comments show that someone knows he is losing the argument.

My name is not Lexi.

Huge sums of money are spent trying to indoctrinate us into believing that we are nothing more than animals.

I have met hundreds of Greens in the blogosphere over several years.

Giving out HTVs for Family First? Wrong again ....

This is where losing your cool and jumping to conclusions gets you.

I guess he's never heard of Peter Singer either.

Lori I apoligise for confusing you with Lexi and Lexi an even bigger apology for confusing you with Lori.

Lori "Yet again, abusive comments" What abusive comments?
I said I assumed you were also handing out HTV's, possible you were not. From your comments I would hardly expect that if you were, then you would not be handing them out for the ALP, and I'm sure not the Greens, and you don't seem to support the LNP so that leaves 3, Daylight Saving Party 3.6%, The Australian Party 2.1% and the Family First Party 1.3% plus a grouping of 'Other Candidates'.
It is interesting that in that particular seat 3 times as many voters are more concerned with daylight saving that there are people being won over by the clap trap from Family First. Just a thought, were the DLP in the Other Candidates?
Peter Singer has opinions on a wide range of subjects, which he has a right to, is there something wrong with that?
Can I ask you Lori, what do you think of the views of another well opinionated person George Pell?

I don't have any particular stance on George Pell since I'm not a Catholic, but I support wholesome family values.

Peter Singer supports ideas such as Abortion, Infanticide and Bestiality.

http://www.utilitarian.net/singer/by/2001----.htm

I would strongly advise you to consider the real ramifications of Home Births and the link to a cheap Peasant Lifestyle.

I gave out HTVs for Katter's Party, since the DLP wasn't running a candidate.

Lori, Like you I also support "wholesome family values." I'm glade we are both singing from the same song sheet on that score. I don't understand your continual references to Peter Singer and his apparent support of Abortion, Infanticide and Bestiality. Bully for good old Pete, that's all I can say. Anders Breivik supports mass murder, what is your point? I asked what you thought of the views of another well opinionated person George Pell? Your answer was "I don't have any particular stance on George Pell since I'm not a Catholic." I would say George Pell speaks on matters which are well beyond the position, he holds in the Catholic Church I won't ask what your view is of the opinions of Mahatma Gandhi as most likely you are not a Hindu.
What do you think of the policies and opinions of Jim Saleam and his political party?

I think George Pell supports strong family values as one might expect from a church leader. I was quite impressed with some elements of his performance on Q&A fairly recently.

One of his better quotes directed at the atheist with no real values:

"You dumb down God, while souping up nothing."

(This was a comment on his Big Bang Theory with no creation content.)

To my knowledge, Peter Singer is a Green. He certainly supports plenty of Anti-Life and Pro-Death policies.

I don't believe that support for Home Births and Same Sex Marriage are good family values either.

As for this fellow named Jim Saleam and the United Australia Party, I have about the same level of interest in Right Wing extremists as I have in those from the Left Wing (Greens).

About 18 months ago, I met a lawyer from the Tea Party Movement who said he had had bullets whistling past his ears in the USA. This fellow espoused very extreme religious discrimination. Since then, I heard he got ejected from their group here in Australia.

I don't support racist or religionist attitudes, or any action by government which serves to create them e.g. treating asylum seekers better than homeless Australians; paying migrant workers less than an Aussie.

Lori, Can you enlighten me as to why the DLP in Queensland is failing so badly. At the last Federal election the DLP could only command 0.46% of the senate vote in Queensland. Whilst the Greens scored a healthy 12.77%, That is for ever 1 person who voted DLP in the last senate election in Queensland 28 voted Green. Even The Australia Sex Party outscored the DLP 6 to 1. I think your party was well and truly rejected by the electorate. Some DLP policies may well be seen as extreme by the voting public, hence the total rejection.

Sex and Green policies are pushed ad nauseam in the media every day of the week.

Lori, You say: "treating asylum seekers better than homeless." I am not a christian, I do not believe in any gods. But I think of myself as a humanitarian and I am surprised at your comment, as I find it neither humanitarian or christian. A little quote from the bible which I think sums up my attitude to asylum seekers,

Matthew 25,35.36 "For I was hungry, and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.

Matthew 25,40 "And the king will answer and say to them, 'Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the lesser of these My brethren, you did it to me."

Lori, I am gladdened by the news that so many Australians have opened their hearts to asylum seekers in a practical way and taken them into their homes. People doing this despite the viscous and hateful political campaign being run by the likes of Abbott and some sections of the media. Is this not a marvelous way in which Australian can practice "wholesome family values" Instead of it being noting more than some throw away line to be trotted out to make one feel good.
Its not a matter of bring asylum down to the level of the homeless, but rather lifting up the homeless to a level of acceptability. I

You have extrapolated in the negative on my comment on asylum seekers. Of course the homeless should be housed, just as migrant workers and refugees should be paid equal wages. I said the government was using these inequalities to deliberately create racial and religious tensions (also to empower bankers to eventually take over the housing market and pay everyone peasant's wages across various holdings, including education and health).

Wiping out race, religion, gender, retirement and humanity (as opposed to animality) are all in the sights of those who wish to fleece us using both a tax on air and the redistribution of populations and wealth.

In this morning's news, Peter Singer (supporter of abortion, infanticide and bestiality) has received a Companion of the Order of Australia as a Queen's Birthday Award. This just goes to show what the society is being reduced to.

Singer is a close friend of Bob Brown, and has run as a Greens candidate for the federal parliament.

When I worked in a major university, I prepared material for publication in the world's most eminent medical journals, including the British Medical Journal. Now it publishes all kinds of anti-human ideology, including the soothsayings of Singer.

Far from being a breath of fresh air, most green ideologies have a terrible stench about them.

Professor Peter SINGER
Melbourne Vic 3000
For eminent service to philosophy and bioethics as a leader of public debate and communicator of ideas in the areas of global poverty, animal welfare and the human condition.

Can we take it that the Queen of England supports abortion, infanticide and bestiality. As she has award Professor Singer a gong. Guilt by association. Just because one is willing to talk about subjects you and I may find challenging such as bestiality, such talk should not be taboo as many so called Christians would have it. These people try to find comfort in ignorance. I am a strong believer in public debate as a corner stone of democracy. Unfortunately too many are willing to be lead by those who wish to dictate how we all should live our lives.
You see George Pell as one who "supports strong family values as one might expect from a church leader." I see the same George Pell as one who endeavored to minimise harm to the good name of the catholic church (as if the catholic church has a good name) when dealing with the pedophilia of catholic clergy. A rather disgusting lack of Christianity from Mr Pell, I would say.

Paedophiles are to be found throughout the community, wherever there are children (everywhere). In my past work as a counsellor, I found most paedophiles were friends, neighbours or relatives of the victims, which had nothing to do with their religious affiliations or lack thereof.

When I was a Cub Scout Leader and another person was a Football Coach, weirdos certainly tried to hang around children and teenagers. I have also encountered a problem with a paedophile in a primary school. There are also people who are falsely accused.

I would certainly prefer that all members of the clergy were able to marry an opposite sex person. Perhaps this might limit unnatural attractions.

Yes, I am very disappointed that anyone would give a known supporter of abortion, infanticide and bestiality any kind of award.

The argument is not about whether or not various issues should be DEBATED, but what is actually SUPPORTED by a particular person or group.

Peter Singer is a Green who argues in favour of very negative things.

Lori, You seem to be preoccupied with Peter Singer and his philosophical views. You tried to say that some how Professor Singers philosophical views were Greens policy. Drawing a rather long bow there. Then as you think the Professor is tainted you tried to discredit Bob Brown as a 'friend of Singer', trying to imply Bob supports such as bestiality.
You also seem to believe all pedophile clergy need is a 'good woman' with this line "that all members of the clergy were able to marry an opposite sex person. Perhaps this might limit unnatural attractions."
I'm sure the majority of clergy simply handle the problem of celibacy with their hand or their housekeeper.
Do you think the 'sickness' of homosexual men could also be fixed if we were to marry them off to a 'good woman' as well?

Sorry, this is not worth answering.

Greens members support a clean environment, but not many of the other policies including:

Abortion (open slather)
Same Sex Marriage
Home Births
Euthanasia
Bestiality
Global Communism
Peasant Lifestyle
Excessive Empowerment of Animals (often supported by Vegans)
Devaluation of Human Beings (as above)

Do you stand by what you posted in claiming bestiality, global communism, peasant lifestyle etc is Green policy? I can not find any of that rubbish about bestiality, global communism, peasant lifestyle etc listed as Greens policy, can you?

I already told you that many policies are not posted on websites.

We can only look at the evidence before our eyes. This includes a Greens candidate who supports abortion, infanticide and bestiality ... also the same person receiving an award from the Queens' Honours list.

At the last federal election, the Greens in my electorate gave out the HTVs of a very militant green midwife posing as an Independent, in addition to their own. She also passed her preferences to Greens.

A return to home births is a recipe for more maternal and neonatal deaths. A midwife doesn't have an ICU, surgeon or operating theatre at her disposal in the event of an emergency. This is peasant anti-life ideology, that takes away people's access to state-of-the-art medical treatment.

These days animals have better access to medical care than humans.

It is easy to see from the distintegration of this thread and off-topic debate, why this country is in such a shambles. Reading the last 5 or so pages has been akin to watching Question Time.

Lorikeet, Peter Singer is a bioethicist and philosopher who has done much to bring to light issues of animal cruelty, euthanasia, and human morality vs religious dogma, to name but a few. Please read his books and do not rely on Wikipedia to present the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

When political parties, large or small, confuse governance of a multicultural society like ours with pushing religious or moral agendas or, worse, sidestep the issues and avoid any real debate so as to appease all sides, nothing is achieved. Least of all progress.

Getting back on topic, the 2.9% pay rise, like so many other ‘handouts’ we have seen in the past few years, is akin to putting a bandaid on an infected open wound. Cover it up and, hopefully, it will heal itself. At the very least, we won’t have to look at it again for a while, or be appalled by the pus oozing from the wound or the stench of rotting flesh.

The only way to truly move forward is to radically change our entire system of government. Not merely voting for independents, which clearly gets us nowhere, but a full all-out change. Now, who’s up for the challenge?

I certainly do stand by what I said. I have communicated with Greens in the blogosphere over many years.

If you check out the CSIRO Energymark Program, you will find more elements of a peasant lifestyle.

I have tried to separate out the agendas of greedy global bankers, Greens ideology and a global communist government, but it seems to me that they are all interlinked.

As you would be aware, Australian parliaments have been driven by increasing levels of Green ideology ever since the rise of Greenpeace around 1970, with some good ideas thrown in with those that are anti-human and undemocratic.

The Greens are increasingly stealing the policies of the DLP, Nationals and Katter's party to gain a greater power base before unleashing their truly obnoxious agendas. I think most people are becoming aware that Labor is deliberately falling on its sword in order to pass power to the Greens.

Labor has signed most of the international agreements which sacrifice our national sovereignty and leave us economically and socially vulnerable on the world stage.

Under a Greens government, we will all be microchipped and treated like dogs. If you think this is unlikely, you would be wise to consider that Obama has already floated microchipping the poor with their health records, with 30% of the people voting in favour in polls. You are an animal after all, aren't you?

Lori,
If Professor Peter Singer is this vile and perverse human being as you would have us believe, why has there not been a right wing conservative media outcry about the Queen of England awarding a gong to this fellow?

You said: "I already told you that many policies are not posted on websites." Conspiracy theories, So can I take it from that comment that the DLP is running 'a secret agenda' possible being infiltrated by right wing extremest, whose real aim is to turn Australia into a fundamentalist catholic state ruled by Rome? Some moderate conservatives can be 'easy meat' for right wing extremest as they are suitable to conspiracy theories and easily converted.

"These days animals have better access to medical care than humans." That is a big call Lori. Do you have facts to back that up?

There are those on the extreme right, and a party that commands less than 0.5% of the vote as the DLP surly does can be views as extreme. On the one hand these people are quick to deliver the soft message of the pursuit of human freedoms, affirming the rights of the individual etc etc. But the reality is given the opportunity they would impose their narrow mined religious based values on all of society, that is 0.5% would dictate how the other 99.5% will conduct their lives. Under these people the jails would be overflowing with non conformists. Religious doctrine with all its nonsense would be the bases of everyone's life.

Lorikeet,

Gosh we're lucky to have one so wise and balanced to tell us how it really is.

You're not related to Arjay are you?

A little "heads up":

I have been trained to counsel people out of destructive cults. I have studied Social Psychology and Group Dynamics, also Mind Control and Manipulation as applied specifically to destructive cults.

There are certainly those who have accused the DLP of wanting to build a new Roman Empire, which is something I definitely don't support.

I have already heard outcries regarding the ongoing empowerment of those who support recidivist ideologies e.g. Singer. I guess some are behind the times on lots of things.

Try getting into a public hospital in Brisbane or Sydney. Then try taking your dog for an operation at a veterinary clinic.

Here we go:

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/in-depth/queens-birthday-honours-2012/award-for-singer-madness/story-fne95kwp-1226391654246

This award was supported by Greens leader, Christine Milne.

Lorikeet,

I've been trained to detect general bollocks on OLO (some it my own :).

In fact, I have an honourary doctorate from the University of Potato in the detection of sundry paranoia.

It's all good.

Lori,

That's not much of an attack on Professor Singer, an article from Murdochs right wing media and all they can come up is Barnaby Joyce calling it "madness", I would expect no less from Joyce a radical right winger. Added to Joyce's criticism is the mumblings of Roslyn Phillips, of Family Voice Australia, "really, really out there". Who is Family Voice Australia, a right wing christian pressure group supported by conservative clergy. A group representing 0.5% of Australians who are ready willing and able to step up and tell the other 99.5% what they should do and think, based on religious fundamentalism.

Lori, Do you support the views of the likes of Rabbi Shimon Cowen

Who says "He’s sorry for the little gay boys and girls who are bashed on a daily basis at school, enduring routine taunts of “poof” and “dyke”. However he knows that it’s more important that little Jewish boys and girls are protected."

A divisive voice in society, would you agree?

Do you want a society which supports Paraphilia (or the broader term, Anythingamy) including people having sex with animals?

Or do you want a clean living society which is comparatively low on medical, social and financial costs, in which kids have a mum and a dad?

I think Poirot is good at knowing when he has been well and truly outclassed.

Outclassed by whom?

Lorikeet, stop generalizing and mislabeling everything. And even though this is still off-topic, you need to be set straight.

1. Since when has living in a ‘clean’ society (whatever that means) ever equated to low medical, social and financial costs? Over regulation by cottonwool-wrapping governments is one reason people are struggling so much today. And you want more?
2. So in your opinion, get rid of the amoral, the unwashed, the hard-done-by, the minorities and let’s all go back to the 50s? No thanks. And who are all these people you're targeting? One of my close relatives is gay. I guess they’d be on your hit list.
3. I’m a single parent, doing a fantastic job of raising 2 boys. No father. He buggered off long ago. And I am hugely offended by your suggestion that I need a male partner to make my life and theirs ‘more fulfilled’. And, for the record, I have never accepted a single family or welfare payment in my life and don't intend to.
4. If you are a typical example of the Democratic Labour Party, then I suggest you hold some kind of referendum (at your own expense, please) and change the name. There is absolutely nothing democratic about your views and heaven help us should you and yours or similar ever rise to power.

On a more general note, have you yet started to read any of Peter Singer’s work, like I suggested? Just might open your eyes a little.

scribbler,

Perhaps the Democratic Labor Party is named so in the manner of the [former] German Democratic Republic...ie, it's the democracy you have have when you don't have a democracy.

Lori,
You say:
"Or do you want a clean living society which is comparatively low on medical, social and financial costs, in which kids have a mum and a dad?"
I to am old enough to remember 'The Nelsons' with Ozzie and Harriet and those wonderful sons of theirs, Davey and Ricky. They all lived happily in their 1950's middle class house, in their middle class street, and all this in their middle class world, where the sun shone daily and the only decision one ever had to make was "what night should we go bowling."
The sickos of our society are those that spend an inordinate amount of time thinking about what others are up to in their bedrooms, be they a man and a woman, a man ans a man or a woman and a woman or any other combo you can think of. None of that is of interest to me, and I certainly don't want to legislate a series of bedroom laws.
Why is a person like the Pope in Rome so interested in sex when supposedly he's not getting any.
Lori, are you still think up a response about Rabbi Cowen?

As for "including people having sex with animals?" Is this DLP policy? or do you just sit around at branch meeting and talk about it for 3 hours. Lori, do you think any right minded person agrees with that nonsense. but I must say, I feel sorry for the poor bloke who drew the spiny ant eater. LOL.

I have raised 2 children with a husband, and one child on my own. You people need to stop generalising and labelling someone you don't know as having attitudes that come out of the 1950s. I am considered by many to be a very forward thinking person, which is why I am well aware of the dark place to which Green ideologies are taking us.

It's the ALP, not the DLP, that has decided to dump all of the sole parents on the dole. The DLP recognises the difficulties faced by people parenting alone, and is opposed to the recent decision.

At the same time as it are advocating a National Disability Insurance Scheme, Labor also continues to cut off disability pensioners. Maybe this is so they can make everyone pay through the taxation system, while giving nothing back.

I think some people are very rude and make disgusting comments which have no basis in fact.

I have read more than enough of Peter Singer's opinions to know he should get the Booby Prize for his unethical ravings.

Lorikeet,

When a party is not in power, it quite often speaks out about issues and opposes them wholeheartedly. When the Howard government first decided to tip sole parents onto the dole, the federal ALP protested loudly - now they have done an even more comprehensive job on sole parents. Same with asylum seekers arriving by boat - who would have thought the ALP would have touted something like the Malaysian Solution?.

The Malaysia Solution was just a red herring to fool all of the racists.

The first time the government decided to start kicking sole parents was around 1986 under Bob Hawke. He also did his level best to diminish the entitlements of our war veterans commencing in 1985.

Around that time, I worked in both the Departments of Social Security and Veterans' Affairs. I worked on a May Mini Budget Hotline during which numerous country women who were sole parents shed tears because they would have to move to the city to find work when their youngest child turned 16 (reduced from 18).

Lorikeet,

"I think some people are very rude and make disgusting comments which have no basis in fact."

You're fairly handy at dishing out bombastic assertions yourself, I've noticed.

If you come to the forum demonstrating an overbearing self-righteous demeanour, you should expect to be challenged. Most posters around here are reasonably intelligent and articulate.

Btw, I've never heard of a recognised genius (like Einstein, for instance) who felt the need to state, "I've got an IQ in the genius range."
Well they wouldn't need to, would they. Their genius would speak for itself - and so would their 'humility'.

I'm used to writing for newspapers and my input may sometimes be a bit terse because I am trained writer, heavily subjected to space limitations.

Someone said I submitted a lot of interesting opinions and asked me what kind of Lorikeet I am ... so I told them.

I have often had to tell people on blogs (generally Greens) that I have a high IQ etc because they keep treating me as if I am stupid. Ditto to other revelations. Someone quite high up in the Greens has publicly called me a liar in relation to my life experiences and abilities, which are extensive.

Getting back to the topic at hand, in this morning's news, we were told by Julia Gillard that we need to have an Integrative Economy with countries such as Vietnam, Japan, Korea (sorry missed the rest) with even more calls for increased productivity, despite that dreadfully low increase in the minimum wage.

These provide further proof that the whole world is being brought down to the lowest common economic denominator with peasant lifestyle and back breaking work.

It is my belief that after the next federal election is won by Coalition and they treat the poor and the average like garbage (again), the vote will shift to the Greens to complete the major party duopoly's dirty work.

I could probably write a whole shelf of books on various interactive topics affecting our nation and the world, but this would take too much time.

Throughout history, the most intelligent people have been treated as if they were morons by those less highly evolved. These days it is called the Tall Poppy Syndrome, which is very much alive and well in 2012. For around 30 years, it has been greatly encouraged by social engineers as a means of shutting down people's independent thinking skills. Then I have to waste my time explaining it instead of spreading information. Information Control is the most destructive tool used by abusive groups.

In recent years, I have been repeatedly cyber-bullied on blogs by those who have been left behind, and also those who wish to apply their hatred of other politicians to me. Please save up any bad feelings and venomous input for those you think have let our nation and its people down.

I'm sure intellectual peers such as Einstein, Newton, Marconi, Bell etc were also treated like garbage, although many believe that some of their better findings were actually input from their wives.

When Alexander Graham Bell said he had invented the telephone and could easily speak to people well outside of his normal hearing range, I bet someone tried to call in a psychiatric physician or surgeon.

Interesting… My experience has been that most intelligent people are not treated as morons unless they act that way.

Though it was many years ago, Lorikeet, I did have occasion to both work and socialise with Bert and Patti and can assure you that neither's intellect should be underestimated regardless of whether one is a fan of their professional work or not.

If you were referring to Isaac… He was never married.

I have my own theory about that – which can wait for another time.

“I'm sure intellectual peers such as Einstein, Newton, Marconi, Bell etc”

…… sorry, just taking a moment to compose myself and wipe the tears of laughter from my eyes ….

There is clearly little point in trying to engage in any meaningful discussion with you. I will thank you, however. Firstly, for making my start to the day so fun and, secondly, for revealing why IQs are held in less regard as a mark of intelligence than they used to be.

It is one thing to claim to have a genius level IQ. It is quite another matter to put it to good use.

And Poirot? Oh well done!

Poirot, welcome to this thread where Lori and I have managed to turn something to do with a 2.9% pay rise into a discussion about anal intercourse with the fauna, which according to Lori is Greens policy. I have 2 Greens meetings this week and no one has bothered to put the new policy on the agenda.

You said "Most posters around here are reasonably intelligent and articulate" I'm here too.
As for intelligence its over rated. Take Einstein for instance. Al and me met up one day, as us geniuses often do, sheared a whammy icy cone down at the Icy Pop Parlor, I had a double hockey pokey with extra 100's & 1000's, thought you would want to know that, can't remember what Al had, who cares what he had anyway. Al said to me "Paulll.... I want to discuss my theory of relativity." I replied as quick as a flash "So Al, having problems with the in-laws, ah!" that was the end of that discussion. Einstein might have known everything about the universe and such like, but did you ever notice the bloke couldn't find a decent barber?

I want people to stop posting fool hardy nonsense on the forum, we are only here to discuss very serious matters, so I will not tolerate any further nonsense

Lorikeet.

I have often had to tell people on blogs (especially Greens) that I have a high IQ etc because they keep treating me as if I'm stupid..."

Probably a clue for you right there....

"...intellectual peers such as Einstein, Newton, Marconi, Bell etc...."

Alrighty then......um.....well, in that case the only advice I can offer is that you display your "genius" more like a sage and less like a sledge-hammer.

: )

Paul,

Just wanted to add that Einstein was the most humble genius. Not only in theoretical physics (he said that once the mathematicians had got their hands on his theory of General Relativity he no longer understood it himself), he was also outspoken on human ethics...and appeared to be the most compassionate of men on the wiles of humanity.

I think Lorikeet should seek out a good biography on Einstein, if only to glean that genius, or even mere 'intelligence', are gifts that require careful husbandry - that they are nothing without humility, wisdom and temperance.

scribbler,

Welcome to the forum : )

Oh well, time will tell who is going to be wearing the egg, but by then it will be too late.

Thank you for proving my point.

Au contraire, Lorikeet.....thank you for proving our point!

"...but by then it will be too late."

Surely present indicative tense is required?

Poirot

Indeed, Einstein was a rare human being in more ways than one. The conservatives gave him the ultimate complement They tried to make out that he was a 'communist'. What a joke that was.

Lori.

I asked you to comment on the views of Rabbi Cowen
After all it was you who introduced the rabbi to the discussion at hand ie 'a gong for Professor Singer', who you continually want to link to Greens policy, You directed me to a piece in one of Murdoch's fish wrappers, The Australian, which quoted a spokesperson for Family Voice Australia, which supports your opinion of the professor. Rabbi Cowen is a patron of Family Voice Australia.
Lori, Do you support the views of the likes of Rabbi Shimon Cowen or will you switch the topic, like last time I asked, why do you continually do that?

Rabbi Cowen says "He’s sorry for the little gay boys and girls who are bashed on a daily basis at school, enduring routine taunts of “poof” and “dyke”. However he knows that it’s more important that little Jewish boys and girls are protected."

I never mentioned anything about your favourite rabbi, since I am yet to see him espousing a viewpoint.

Forty years ago, I worked with a lesbian. Nobody picked on her at all. Some people thought a high school friend might be homosexual. Nobody picked on him either.

This may give some answers regarding continuing mass starvation in other nations:

http://www.ipa.org.au/library/publication/1339371699_document_accountability-for-our-aid-dollar.pdf