Threads so very often lead to right vs left left vs every one and niceness vs achievable out comes.
Right now, much like the whole country we here roll in the mud over boat people and climate change.
I see daily even from my fellow travelers the views we are cruel to boat people/refugees.
When was life last always kind?
Post ww2 England knowingly sent Russians back to Russia to be killed.
America took both Nazi,s and Japanese war criminals home, free because they could be of use.
We waited too long in both Africa and the Balkans and thousands died while we did.
As we squabble about dropping our gate and letting every one come Europe, it can not be denied, suffers as a result of its once open arms actions.
Dare I? what if 2.000 of us went to some of these country's.
Would we be admitted freely, let settle and bring our beliefs? even be critical of our hosts ones.
Now I have done it! I will in some eyes be shock jock like.
50 years from now, some one finding our debates on these subjects may well ask, what is wrong with self preservation?

Belly

Very few like to see people suffer like the boat people are now. There are however very many suffering in refugee camps and other countries who are just as bad off if not worse. I have friends whose relatives are Tamils who have waited years to come here (and no they are not Christians as far as I know). Should they have to wait more years because others risk their lives and kids on boats. No easy answers on this one. I personally think once people have arrived they should stay unless a security risk. That is why it is dumb policy to encourage people on these boats as it is harder to send back once here. The forgotten ones are those who have waited years to get here sometimes in worse situations than boat people.

I agree with Runner. The refugee process should be an organised process.
It should not be a 'whoever reaches our shores first gets in' process.

Belly, we live in the World society as a whole, as well as in Australia.
What if something awful happened here in Australia, and many of us wanted to move to another country for safety?

Would other countries accept us if they knew we had a history of just wanting to look after ourselves here in Australia, and no-one else, as you seem to be suggesting?

Whether we like it or not, there are too many people inhabiting our planet already, and with the easier travel methods and the disputes around the globe we have today, more and more people will be living in countries they weren't born in.

We need to deal with our fair share of immigrants, refugees and asylum seekers.
I agree that this should be done in a much fairer way than it is now though.

I would like and understanding, that in every matter under discussion, every law being past or plans, the same rules exist.
Now I am an ALP voter, Abbott reminds me of that every day, by his actions.
I make no claim for the issue of Halos to Labor.
Just maybe, in my view, they are on to something here.
Regional processing.
If it works, it may be an answer world wide.
Look at the differences in our views and ideas.
Considering my list others could put additional ones lets look at boat people but understand it is no different for any thing, we differ.
Options, let them all in, stop them all, onshore processing, offshore processing.
Can we agree it is a world wide problem?
And that some even think imposed on us* yes some think it is social engineering,with a wanted out come that in a few century's humanity becomes one.
I said many views exist.
What if the world treated this as one.
What if all those groups feeding the starving working for a better life in these country's had a single plan.
20 million refugees, now but tomorrow,if its just taking a bus?
What if a war broke out in say the middle east, sub Continent?
Africa, a big all inclusive war?
Can I remind us all I in no way want to silence the voice of other views.
It would be nice however to stop the screaming, from extreme right and cuddlsome left who fail us all.
Tell us we are cruel or that we ignore the pain and suffering, we do not,we just do not want to ignore our own concerns.
With a plan,with good intentions,we can ease the reasons these folk flee.
But minority's, if constantly over ruling majority's threaten our very system.
How long will masses be lead around by numbers 1 tenth of theirs?

lol...quote...''""Regional processing.""

yes let beurocrats decide
mates rates..unioninists and capitalists only please

today we only take party loyalists..with cash
or who been coached

much like the public service test

where if you dont ignore the rules
and flexy time..outside of the current page
to reply the 'easy last page's..only editing//looking for differences

with the spare time...we got in the 2 de last subject
you loose..everytime..the only way to go the test
is to keep going on the test
ignoring the time limit

its not what you know
but who tells ya the best trick to use...now

we arnt all equal
there is a basic definition of being australian
if you meet or exceed it..you can buy in
or if you know the right people

but the bar is set too low
for many
and too high for the rest

then who judges the test?

belly quote...""some think it is social engineering""

it is ol mate
them safe lib or lab areas
how many of them are islands of one group

i heard recently in woodrige
is a huge samoen population...so clearly
one they would vote for..will win everytime

,"""with a wanted outcome
that in a few century's humanity becomes one."""

then stop cluttering them into special areas
setting up 'service' industries..just for them

""many views exist....What if the world treated this as one.""

one vieuw?
of the many vieuws?

which one?

""What..these country's had a single plan.""'

ie live anywhere you can pay your own way?
that your education level or skill levels..
siocial /moral levels..match..the host cuntries..moral/educational/skills base

im fine with that
if you can pay..you can stay

""20 million refugees""
how many were..the beurocrats for the dictraiter..[criminal exploiters..who scoopped up the spoil..then retired to a nice place

""What if a war broke out in say the middle east,?""

the rats would run
to a safe haven
here

""Africa,a big all inclusive war?""'

that would be an uprising of the exploited
chasing away the exploiters

""i..in no way want to silence..the voice of other views."'

i know that ol mate

""nice..to stop the screaming,
from extreme right..and cuddlsome left..who fail us all.""

cause both think only they are right
if ya not with us your against us
DIVIDE AND CONQUER..then subsume both adgendas

""we can ease the reasons these folk flee.""'

yes keep that dictraier ship going
let their trust[the people]
hold their own beurocatic autocracy to account

stop offering refuge to scioundrals
no matter how rich..they are with others wealth

""But minority's,
if constantly over ruling majority's..threaten our very system.""

erspecially when we bring in the 1%
doing the abuse

""How long will masses..be lead around by numbers 1 tenth of theirs?""

no mate..its us the 99%
then the 1%...lording it over the rest of us
for them..nuthin but the best...for us landless exploited poor
the rulers change..but nuthin else...were as low as they lets us sink to

I'm afraid I can only foresee problems rather than solutions if we keep letting people with doubtful I.D. in en masse.
I look at Europe & without any imagination at all I can see what's going to happen to Australia. I can also foresee when Australians will whine & whinge when they're told to put up or shut up by the descendants of the boat people once their agenda is being realised.
People should keep in mind that it is simply so much easier to invade Australia by leaky boat than by actual war.
People should also keep in mind that the large portion of the Earth's population is not interested in the way of life we have built over generations. For them, the mission is to ruin everything they don't have rather than put in the effort to have it as well.

"if we keep letting people with doubtful I.D"

Has anybody seen credible material on how many boat arrivals don't have ID?

I've seen the point made often about them arriving without ID but have never checked to see how real the claim is.

I consider it highly unlikely that many could get to Indonesia with the funds for the last leg of the trip (reportedly thousands of dollars) but not have been able to keep hold of other documents along the way. It seems safe to assume that anyone stealing ID documents would take any cash (or means of accessing cash) as well.

R0bert

R0bert,
I wasn't referring to "stolen" I.D. I'm talking about hidden & fake I.D. Do not for one moment forget that many of the people seeking refuge in Australia are doing so with the plan to come to Australia specifically. Just like years ago they specifically went to Germany, France etc. Now it's Australia's turn. It's the last western Nation to be conquered.

Belly,
You and I both want the illegal boat arrivals to cease, but from that point on I have to disagree with you.

It is not a regional problem, it is Australias alone. Brought on by your party, in government, dismantling a system that worked. For ages they refused to acknowledge their failure, then tried to implement tougher measures that were poorly thought out and were rejected because we did not maintain control. Then they decided it was all beyond their capabilities and made it open slather, with the predictable result. Now they are saying, to the opposition, please help us. An addmission of ineptitude!

You are saying it is a regional problem, but the illegals are not going to other countries and seeking asykum, so why is it regional?
You are a party animal and you can see this costing many votes at the next election, so you want a solution before then. That is why you are proposing to make it a regionasl issue.

I want the boats stopped, but it is another gigantic stuff up by Labor and it is up to them to fix it. Back to TPVs and open Nauru again would be the first step for Labor, to swallow its pride. We are in control in Nauru so the court ruling does not effect it. To say otherwise is your strawman argument to lessen blame on Labor.

It is the complete incompedence of the present government that is the only problem here. Talk about wasting money and wasted space!

individual I'd assumed that you don't think that most of the id's are stolen (a point I agree with).

I would like to have more certainty around the proportion who arrive by boat without suitable ID, a situation that is most cases would seem to be a deliberate attempt to hide their identity.

R0bert

R0bert,
We'll never get to see credible material if we constantly only get academic experts' views & opinions.
We need to encourage people on the ground to open up if we want to put a dent into this racket.

All posters here should read this.

http://blogs.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/mirandadevine/index.php/dailytelegraph/comments/this_craziness_wont_float/

OUG!only read the first line.
Bloke disjointed rubbish! nothing to do with the threads direction.
Mate you laugh out loud too often!and with seemingly badly miss placed self confidence ,how is that post contributing to an answer?

Banjo, hope you have a great Christmas,and that Santa brings some understanding.
Do you understand what you said?
Only Australia has this problem?
Surely no kid would think that.
But you bring evidence to the thread weird ideas exist and too that mudslinging ABOUT THE PAST, gets more air than resolving the problem.
Every view has value,some far less than others, but we must hear each one and must understand what we are dealing with.
Some do not, clearly are un afraid to show us they do not.
Howard today, if in power, tell me this is not true, may well look to such as Malaysia for his solution.
He like any thinking person, would question what the rules are post high court.
Sticky mud holds us back thrown before putting a contribution /answer to the problem.
OUG I try but if your in put is meant to be poetry it fails to be so too me.
The junk insults HAVE NEVER BEEN ACCOMPANIED BY SOLUTIONS!

Belly,
What garbage you speak.

You say it is a regional issue?

Not in our region. It is ours alone. NZ, New Guina, Asian countries do not have a problem with Illegals trying to get asylum. The Pacific Islands do not have a problem with illegals seeking asylum. Our French neighbours (west of Perth) don't have a problem. The illegals only pass through Indonesia, They do not seek asylum there. So how is it a regional problem. Aus is the only country in our region that the illegals seek asylum in.

Europe has a big problem, but that is not in our region.

You object to me bringing up the past and present incompedence of Labor, because that is the truth. Labor caused the problem, no ifs or buts about that.

Belly you often talk about the 'truth' but accuse me of mudslinging when the truth is spoken.

belly i prefer yelling to silence
so know i really admire you for your loyalty
but see that some like us not trying to understand others

and its them your hearing
its them saying im whatever

anyhow read your own words

mr bell quote...""OUG!only read the first line.""

well mate
its a good thing i read all of yours

cause based on that one line
and not reading the rest

mr bell said...""Bloke disjointed rubbish!
nothing to do with the threads direction.""'

please if you had even only read
THAT FIRST LINE..[it was a direct/quote...!..
taken from this very topic}

as is my reply
replying mr bells words further
"""Mate you laugh out loud too often!"""

ok we are even
you make me cry...often..but i need that

""and..with..seemingly
badly miss-placed..self confidence""

of course
IF YOU DONT EVEN READ THE 2DE LINE...lol

""how is that post contributing to an answer?""

i replied that in the rest of them lines
you refused to read...mr bell

""Sticky mud
holds us back
thrown before putting a contribution"""

who reads them
lol..yet i bother[brother]

""/answer to the problem."'

begins with egsamining the replies
i see nuthing..dont fix nuthin

""OUG I try""

TRIED

""but if your in-put..is meant to be poetry
it fails to be so too me.""

mate your complaints forced me into this writing style
ITS NOT POETIC...if yiou read it youwould know

guess it explains why you dont try to refute it
[i showed you how to quote it]

""The junk insults
HAVE NEVER BEEN ACCOMPANIED BY SOLUTIONS!"'

so for me its water off the ducks back
i read your post...was that the solutions?

Belly,
Further to your last post.

If you care to look back through my posts you will see that I have put forward the solution to our problem of the illegal entries, many times.

For those that cannot comprehand I'll state it again.

Simply do not give them what they seek and they will stop coming.

In this instance that means no permanent residence and no ability to sponsor their relos to come. If necessary, no legal aid and make them wait years for assesment,like those in camps around the world.

Why cannot the present government grasp the simple facts?

I do not want to get bogged down.
In a thread meant to remind us of the many views held about ANY ISSUE.
OUG MATE! you get so very off subject make claims about unions and such being responsible for this.
I will not pretend you do not seem uniformed, and to regard it as an asset.
Banjo, first you launch in to its only an Australian problem, narrow it down to Labor, why would I look to you for resolution?
20 million refugees world wide seek a new home, shouting stop giving them what they want will not do it.
Both sides want it stopped.
Others want it expanded, not one of us, no one, has the ability to say with honesty the solution they want is the only one.
A past thread questioned will we ever have one world government.
This thread says yes, for sure.
We let our selves be trained seals, sprouting views given to us by leaders and media.
Resolving this issue is not going to be done by traveling in to the past.
todays problem needs todays answer.

Belly,
You should look to me for resolution, because you know what i say is correct.
Now you raised the issue of region in your second post on this thread and your party have spoken on more than one occasion about regional issues.

Sure there is a problem of about 20million refugees world wide, but it is not a regional issue in our region.

Our problems are simply a direct result of the present governments ineptitude and they, or you, should not look to others to resolve them.

In breaking news, I see the government may now consider talking to the libs about reopening Nauru. If they go further and talk about TPVS as well, it may do some good.

Gee! wish some one would say something Controversial!
We could then have an argument!
Ah, better still how about if they said some thing constructive?
I dream!
Indonesia/Malaysia/ Philippines, do not have a refugee problem, how silly of me.
I am dressed for debate,sailing forth to say what I think.
Full face mask and head protection.
Knee length boots, hob nailed and steel caped.
Hoping my divers suit keeps the mud from my skin.
Ready?
Are we Representative of Australia?
Yes probable.
We are in a bit of trouble then are we not.
Rational thought seems deeply hidden, almost like an unwanted Christmas visitor of the we don't eat much variety.
Amusing but disturbing too, very much so.
IF ONLY! if only I had understood in hundreds of sit down dispute resolution meeting!
See I thought,silly of me, all sides deserved a hearing, if only I had put all the blame on my opponent!
Would have kept the fight going for a Century!
Learning! Labor wrong, always.
NEGATIVE MAN nice fella right always
great wishes to all enjoy Christmas

While we, Australians except no resolution to issues as important as boat people.
Take in only the views of our side /tribe we are self defeating.
The boat people issue is but one.
We in a hung Parliament environment, let only minority's win.
If nothing else,to give governments the power to rule.
One vote one value must come.

Yes I too got/get caught up in the fly paper any discussion is bound to here
And in my view our country.
I am not unaware my thought process up sets many
And I want to now address my Confrontational views of the Greens.
Greens dislike me, I well yes not individuals but as a whole believe them to be the Trojan horse that is bringing center and left of center down.
Yes done it again haven I ?
But Greens as much as Conservatives, maybe more, shut the mental doors hard and fast on those who disagree with them.
I think if Greens had power, other than the parasite like life they have on Labors back, to implement their true wants,we would become a third world country.
It appears to me,that our population under the greens would be too big.
That premature ending of coal would see power costing three times as much.
I think drugs would destroy more lives.
I just do not believe, in matter of offshore processing, the greens hold any less blame, more in fact, than ANYONE for every death at sea.
Yet my views are discarded by those few, those who are so intent on the issues being resolved in their way.
They ignore the basics of democracy, majority rules

i know its futile to post anything
as those needing to read it wont

but anyhow bellls said..""One vote one value must come.""'

so its futile
to tell him even those words are the spin

one vote...having on value
means...you dont get to vote twice
the one you want[first]
and the one you really DONT want[last]

so one vote has two vote
on opposing 'values'

its too easy to get lost in the buzzzzzz words

just as getting invested..into the topic..
or opposing adgendas..too much



""Yes I too got/get caught up in the fly paper
any discussion is bound to here
And in my view our country.""

this group of concepts
is the self same dis jointed/joinder
mr bell hate..in me

i followed his line posting format
but found that too confusing..so i at least keep the same concept in the same block[lump]

thing is i had a reply to what i think he was saying
so will post what i think his last quote was trying to say

yep mate i find it all confusing too
but heck mate we try to do the best with what we got

the only true sin is not trying

so will save myself..from trying to reply
the other poetry[ok just one more]

""I am not unaware my thought process up sets many""

me neither ol mate
just tried...and if they dont..i cant make them

green bashing deleted
cause i dont like greens neither

""It appears to me,that our population
under the greens would be too big.""

too big to fail
or too big to have to accept the globes flotsam/

new toopic...""That premature ending of coal
would see power costing three times as much.""

yet..lol
still defend the tax..lol

""I think drugs..would destroy more lives.""'

than it saves?
than it employs?

would..or could?
booze..and perscribed_drugs
are ahead..by a mile...!

somehow..i feel
your not saying..it all

Sorry bloke I think I am saying what I think.
So many understand drugs, having driven interstate trucks I do.
OK nanny state and all that but drug use while driving, or while you need to be on your toes must remain illegal in my view.
Greens disagree, is ones personal freedom to be gained at the cost of others life?
That head on, any of them, driver gets out passenger dies.
Speed or drugs but the one responsible walks away
Not getting in to carbon tax not with you, mate you seem uninformed on that, badly.
every issue has many answers, not every one right.
Will Drop in over the holidays, up to my arm pits in visitors but they are at the beach now.

My house is packed yet silent.
The kids here are teenagers, they will tell you adults.
They are right too.
Gifts arrived days ago.
Trips to beach,first and second baked meals, the full thing have been eaten.
Another two today.
Beds are full of snoring worn out visitors.
Early AM rises unlikely
Yes around six the first coffee will be shared, just two brothers.
Then like the release of a thousand chattering birds life ,a flood of it, will come.
Just as I tried in my thread to say, I failed.
My Christmas is not yours.
I did not find the words,and did not find the ability, to not get side tracked by self interest, mine and others.
But like every life, every view, my different Christmas, is as valid as yours or? any other!
I long STILL for my Christmas, my pagan one, King prawns.
Beer wine or spirits, oysters, beer wine or spirits.
Salads, washed down with a beer.
Boxing day!
How in long! for a truly traditional! Aussie one!
Food only from the BARBY, Sausage sandwiches , with onion, beer, Cricket, swinging over to watch the Sydney to Hobart start.
What divides Australia also,in the long run unites us.
Our differences are not fatal.
Now? cheeky beggar that I am I ruin it all, my sausages would be pork.
Happy festival!

If history is any indication, future generations will probably look on us as being ignorant barbarians.

In almost all fields - scientific, social and economic - they will likely see that we ignored the information we had available and acted entirely out of short term self-interest.

That's the way it has always been and probably the way it always will be.

I can't think of anything truly worthwhile that we need to resurrect from past generations and it will be the same for them.

"Now I have done it! I will in some eyes be shock jock like"

Belly...You dont have the stile, or the class:)

Just be yourself, thats good enough:)

CACTUS

If history is any indication, future generations will probably look on us as being ignorant barbarians.
wobbles,
Only if people wake up but I fear the trend is towards being more & more cultural Neanderthal.

Indy old mate, I think you may be right,
Some of us do seem a bit cave man like.
Thanks for those who tried to contribute, and to those who proved balanced discussion is not possible for every one.