http://problembanklist.com/fdic-to-cover-losses-on-trillion-bank-of-america-derivative-bets-0419/ The US Federal Reserve (A private group of banks) has moved debts of the Bank Of America onto the the FDIC (Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation)which was set up in 1933 as result of the Glass Stegal Act.The purpose of this act was to separate commercial banking from retail banking.Bill Clinton made The Glass Stegal Act inoperative.

This is another bailout and means more debt for the US people while the bankers get off Scot free again.

This is the third biggests Corporation in the world that makes up 80% of retail banking in the USA.

This bailout will mean more money printing and the further destruction of the US $.When will the criminals be charged?

When will the criminals be charged?
Arjay,
As soon as they no longer get the support of people like you .

I think "individual" ,you have seriously got your wires crossed.I do not support a banking system that creates from nothing, the money to equal increases in our productivity as debt.We are their debt slaves and this is not democracy!

Arjay,
I wasn't referring to the banking system. I was referring to the much more than your 0.001% of the banking system. ie. the mainly leftie public service & other leftie socialist outfits who cry ripped off but have no qualms claiming everything they can. May I suggest you look at the tax refund claims in this country. You'll find that those who contribute the least claim the most & they're not the business people who employ people. Look at your teachers & other bureaucrats & those in Universities & Law societies just to name a few.
We are heading for another depression under this system, it's unavoidable. No value for money is unsustainable.

Individual,we are in a depression and if this link is right,the real decadence has begun.The elites have set this up for the dominance of their monetary scams.The CO2 tax is just another case in point.

The CO2 tax is just another case in point.
Arjay,
Yes, another link to leftie involvement & trickery to get what they usually blame the conservatives for.

ahh arjay..if only i had your passion
there are some who simply will refuse to see

who will refuse to think
or even read a link

its no use trying to post again
the link to what really happend

or
David Icke: Essential Knowledge For A Wall Street Protester

For those of us who have demonstrated and marched in the Occupy movement,..it is obvious that the police and the corporate press serve as guards—buffers..between the vast majority of the American people and the ruling “corporatocracy”

(the partnership of giant corporations,
the wealthy elite, and their collaborating politicians).

In addition to the police and the corporate press,
there are millions of other guards employed by the corporatocracy to keep people obedient and maintain the status quo.

Even a partial revolt of the guards could increase the number of protesters on the streets from the thousands to the millions.

they are the only ones that continually attack us
blame us..when its them refusing to think[..them 'only'
defending the indefensable]..them chosing to blame us..not their master's

its futile to warn them
their supper has been stolen
that they only hold worthless promises..
that soon will get a further haircut...that soon wont be worth their promise even..on paper

its futile to tell them far to full of guilt
that their fears have made their eyes blind
and their ears deaf

arjay
they have made their choice
they forget gernmany forfeited war reperations
that only would have gone back to bankers bonus

they dont know the only tripple AAA secuirity is a govt security
that bankers monetised..and sent out into the market long ago
that any govt obligation to the banker that monetised it

must be returned to the bond issuer
..not the one that wasted money bying a contractual banker bond..
not binding or enforcable..on a non contractrual party..[ie third party]

UOG,I've heard their plan now is to crash the world economy and start a new world war.The intention is to bluff China ,Russia and any other independant country with it's own banking system,into sueing for peace under their terms.

Once they have their debt based system of money creation in place,then they have absolute power.We are talking about the 0.0001% who have their nuke shelters at the ready.They are the inbred psychopathic nutters who dream of world dominance.China is fully aware of this reality.

Once major war starts,Howard's Sedition Laws will close down all freedom of speech and protests.We could become like Nazi Germany.

This bloke has got to be under surveillance.

We could become like Nazi Germany.
Arjay,
What do you mean could become ? It's an offence to speak the truth, you're told what you can say (PC) , two independents can overrule the votes of millions, Victims have no rights. Voicing your concerns about Australia's future is an offence, I think we're closer than you think.

579 we either face the truth or face possible oblivian.It is no good being scared of those who want to kill you anyway.Maurice Strong billionaire and ex secretary of the UN has stated that he wants to reduce the world population to half a billion.There are many others under the cloak of environmentalism who want to see radical reductions in the world's population.

Nuclear war is a high risk strategy for everyone,paricularly those who don't have underground shelters.They have these mini-nukes or strategic nukes that they want to use.There is no way the West could win a conventional war against the might of China.

If we create enough awareness we can stop the insanity.Anyone who writes negative info or speaks the truth about wars,banks or corporate activities is under surveillance.It is called an oligarchy.

What is the price of true freedom and democracy?

What is the price of true freedom and democracy?
Arjay,
you need to ask that question in a country where they have that.

"It is well enough that people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning." -- Henry Ford

This is why we are at war across the globe. Because bankers will gladly see a billion people die if it keeps the surviving billion under their control.

Gaddafi’s biggest crime was a government-issued value-based currency, the gold dinar, which is a major threat to the power and wealth of private central bankers who love to loan out the public currency at interest.

Oddly enough, the United States fought a revolution to free itself from that very system when the private Bank of England lobbied King George III to pass the Currency Act, which ordered all commerce in the colonies to use bank notes borrowed at interest from the Bank of England.

The resulting stripping of wealth from the people for the bankers is the major reason for the American Revolution.

"[It was] the poverty caused by the bad influence of the English bankers on the Parliament which has caused in the colonies hatred of the English and . . . the Revolutionary War." -- Benjamin Franklin

Of course, the reason that our schools frame the history of the American Revolution in terms of the Stamp act and Tea Party and scarcely mention the Currency Act is that in 1913 a corrupt Congress and corrupt President sold Americans back into the clutches of a private central bank issuing the public currency as a loan at interest;

the very same system
we had fought the Revolution to be free of!

It is called the Federal Reserve..and the authority
to create money was illegally transferred

(such a drastic change in basic structure requires a Constitutional Amendment) from the civilian government to the newly created Federal Reserve..over the Christmas holiday of 1913..(the same year the 16th Amendment for the personal income tax..was falsely claimed to have been ratified.)

This was done
even though the two previous attempts
at allowing a private central bank to issue the public currency as a loan at interest, the First and Second Banks of the United States, had almost destroyed the nation.

andrew jackson/quote.."Gentlemen, I have had men watching you for a long time and I am convinced that you have used the funds of the bank to speculate in the breadstuffs of the country.

When you won, you divided the profits amongst you, and when you lost, you charged it to the bank. You tell me that if I take the deposits from the bank and annul its charter, I shall ruin ten thousand families.

That may be true, gentlemen, but that is your sin!

Should I let you go on, you will ruin fifty thousand families, and that would be my sin! You are a den of vipers and thieves. I intend to rout you out, and by the Eternal God, I will rout you out." -- Andrew Jackson

Following WW1, Germany had been forced to accept a private central bank as a means to keep Germans poor and helpless. It led to the runaway inflation abuses of the Weimar Republic.

One reason the Nazis were so popular was that they scrapped the private central bank and returned to a system of government-issued value-based currency that allowed Germany to become prosperous.

So great was the change it was called the “German miracle” and Hitler was TIME Magazine’s Man of the Year for the obvious improvements in German life.

But bankers are terrified of the rest of the world realizing that there are better ways to run an economy for the public than by forcing them to borrow all currency from a private bank at interest.

So in 1933, the international banks staged a global boycott against Germany to destroy that government-issued value-based currency before the debt-slaves in other nations (like the United States) started getting uppity ideas!

This financial “attack” on Germany set the stage for WW2.
So, if you are wondering what this so-called “clash of civilizations” is all about, it is actually a war between banking systems. The United States is attacking nations that refuse to allow private central banks to take control of the nation’s wealth, or nations that avoid western-style banking. Your money is being spent, and your children are dying horrible deaths in, what is it now, 12 wars? And all to make the world safe for Compound Interest. To keep the world enslaved to private central banks printing up and issuing the public currency as loans at interest; a system which by design always produces more debt than available money, to make the slavery permanent.

"This is the very essence of the banking system, to keep us all, whether we be nations or individuals, slaves to debt. You control the debt, you control everything! " – "The International

That is very interesting."One reason why the Nazis were very popular is that they scrapped the private Central banking system and issued their own currency." Not all of their banking system was free.Prescott Bush and the Union Bank in the USA laundered Nazis money.Thanks UOG.This would have been the prime reason why the Western Banksters wanted a war with Germany.Germany was upsetting the balance of their power.Germany was also driven into abject poverty due to WW1 war reparations.

Japan also had an independant banking system and an excellent manufacturing base but very little in energy and resources.The USA tried to limit their trade and access to energy,this is why they were driven into war.We warned the USA about the attack on Pearl Harbour to no avail.

China has not made that mistake.

an individual asks at this time
[when the peacefull protests have been brutally suppressed in malborn..and snydney]

he asks..quote..""What is the price
of true freedom and democracy?""

its willing to be arrested for daring to speak out
willing to be told to shut up

its abiout being preopared to not acces the ionternet..because you dare to speak truths in this age of lies and spin

i note re the shut down of protest..in malborn and snyde nee
that overnight,..those who serve the crown brutally shut down 'pro-test'...[that wasnt shut down in egypt]

further that we had a protester burnt to death
in brisbane..and media silenced it[hushed it up]
yet the same media noted the emoliation by fire
that began the arab spring protests..

clearly ..we are more enslaved and bound and bonded
than even arabs under dictraiterships

i recall that once the indians rebelled
cause of a little tax upon salt

we now stay silent
under infinite tax burdens
[that advantage only the elites
who lost their taxes..upon themselves
to add even more burden upon the poor

then when they dare protest
they get policed...unlike the real criminals..who dont get ant policing

its time the police policed the laws of these lands
not the regulations of the state

""you need to ask that question
in a country where they have that.""

yeah

Arjay, you really need to do your homework more thoroughly.

>>This is the third biggests Corporation in the world that makes up 80% of retail banking in the USA.<<

Bank of America doesn't even crack the top twenty "biggest corporations", on any measure. And the definitive list - the FT Global 500 - has them down at No. 81

http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/f808f946-ef56-11e0-918b-00144feab49a.pdf

Your "80% of retail banking in the USA" is a crock. While BoA is still probably the largest in retail banking, the figure is closer to 12%.

Never mind - you never were that good with facts.

Your statement that "The US Federal Reserve (A private group of banks) has moved debts of the Bank Of America onto the the FDIC" is simply wrong.

FDIC is an insurance operation.

And - guess what? The Banks themselves provide funds to the FDIC by way of premium payments. When the risks increase, so do the premiums.

http://repowatch.org/2011/03/23/fdic-to-charge-higher-premiums-for-repos/

"Starting [April 2011] the FDIC insurance fund will base its fee on banks’ total liabilities, calculated as assets minus tangible equity"

But most importantly, the FDIC does NOT take responsibility for the Bank's debts. It is there to insure the public, not cover the Bank's losses. You seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding of their roles.

"checking, savings, and certificates of deposit (CDs)... are insured by the FDIC... these types of accounts generally are insured by the FDIC up to the legal limit of $250,000"

http://www.fdic.gov/consumers/consumer/information/fdiciorn.html

One thing the FDIC does is to track the failed Banks - well, they'd have to, given their responsibilities to the public whose deposits they must insure.

http://www.fdic.gov/bank/historical/bank/index.html

Extrapolate that across the banking system as a whole, and you'll have some idea of what would happen if you pulled the plug on the entire system, as your pal Ron Paul is itching to do.

Think about it.

First kill the Banks.

Depositors then go to the FDIC for their insurance payout, FDIC goes to the Banks to make them cough up their premiums and - golly-gee-whiz! There aren't any banks left who can pay up!

How did that happen?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bank_of_America Here are the details from wikipedia Pericles.This is the second source confirming what I said."Forbes listed 3rd biggest company in the World."It is enormous and I've now seen several sources saying that it is insolvent.

What do your sources say Pericles?

Your Wikipedia extract is out of date, just in case you hadn't noticed.

"In 2010, Forbes listed Bank of America as the 3rd biggest company in the world"

The footnote refers to the Forbes 2000 listing - which, quite frankly, has to be one of the more slapdash set of rankings imaginable.

But if Forbes is your ultimate source, then you should know that Bank of America now occupies position 375 on that same list.

http://www.forbes.com/global2000/#p_1_s_arank_MajorBanks_All_UnitedStates

It took quite a while to track them down, since the site lists them ten-to-a-page. I finally had to resort to narrowing the search to Major US Banks.

And yes, I am aware of the "Bank of America is insolvent" movement. It has been going on for quite a while now, so I'm a little surprised you have only just caught up with it.

http://traderscrucible.com/2011/08/23/bank-of-america-insolvent-and-everyone-knows-it-now/

The predictions that they will not be able to work through the toxic stuff on their balance sheet are all very interesting. But more interesting are the suggested cures...

Do some (better) homework on that topic, Arjay, and then explain how you see it occurring - if, that is, it happens at all. For extra credit, explain who is going to suffer most if your explanation is implemented.

The new government..of Iraq has made it clear
they will not grant immunity..for war crimes to American/troops

and any remaining..in Iraq
after Dec 31..(other than embassy guards) are subject to arrest.

In denying immunity,..the new Iraqi government..has shown the US to the door..and handed them their hat, er,..their helmet.

In other words,..the United States
just lost the Iraq war.

1...We never got Saddam's nuclear weapons,
because..they did not have any.

2...We did not revenge 9-11
because Iraq had nothing to do with it.

3. We did not punish Iraq for supporting Al Qaeda
because..Saddam and Al Qaeda were enemies.

4. We did not get all that much oil
because the new government of Iraq..is made up of people the US tortured,..or of people..who know people the US tortured,..and the oil contracts were handed out to everyone else.

and they just told the US to get out,
or face war crimes charges!

There is no real tangible way to claim that this war was a win for the United States. Billions spent, hundreds of thousands dead.

The only real winners are the bankers
to whom both sides are now deeply in debt.

now for ww3

how about gadfly[gladduffy]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GuqZfaj34nc&feature=relmfu

THE MARK OF THE SLAVE
http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/themarkoftheaslave.php

On January 1, 1863, President Abraham Lincoln signed the Emancipation Proclamation, to make all men free.

On December 23rd, 1913, President Woodrow Wilson signed the Federal Reserve Act, to make all men slaves again.

When the dog dies, the fleas merely jump to a new dog."
http://lonestarwatchdog.blogspot.com/2011/10/federal-reserve-bank-is-moral-hazard-to.html

http://whiskeyandgunpowder.com/the-real-reason-for-the-uprisings/
http://www.zcommunications.org/a-movement-too-big-to-fail-by-chris-hedges

police realise they too are the 99
http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2011/10/veterans-and-police-officers-support-occupy-wall-street-protesters.html

http://poorrichards-blog.blogspot.com/2011/10/paul-were-witnessing-failure-of_24.html
http://www.theburningplatform.com/?p=23487
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-10-24/swiss-banks-said-ready-to-pay-billions-disclose-customer-names.html

http://www.cnbc.com/id/45013499

the odious debt bet

http://therealnews.com/t2/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=31&Itemid=74&jumival=7494
http://dailybail.com/home/paul-volcker-its-time-to-regulate-money-market-funds-and-get.html

http://12160.info/profiles/blogs/2649739:BlogPost:693228
http://poorrichards-blog.blogspot.com/2011/10/real-reason-why-gadaffi-was-killed-why.html
http://poorrichards-blog.blogspot.com/2011/10/five-things-you-may-not-know-about.html
http://weeklyintercept.blogspot.com/2011/10/did-john-bolton-just-admit-all-these.html

http://poorrichards-blog.blogspot.com/2011/10/what-would-happen-if-goldman-sachs.html
http://dailybail.com/home/occupy-ireland-make-bank-bondholders-pay-if-they-didnt-share.html
http://usmfreepress.org/2011/10/chemical-bomb-thrown-at-occupy-maine-camp-early-sunday-morning/
http://revolutionarypolitics.tv/video/viewVideo.php?video_id=16436

fed audit
http://sanders.senate.gov/newsroom/news/?id=9e2a4ea8-6e73-4be2-a753-62060dcbb3c3
the U.S. provided a whopping $16 trillion in secret loans to bail out American and foreign banks and businesses during the worst economic crisis since the Great Depression

http://www.activistpost.com/2011/10/european-union-chiefs-are-drawing-up.html
http://publicbanking.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/state-bank-trifold9-20110807.pdf

prediction?
http://presscore.ca/2011/?p=4808

Why is it that you guys (yes, you Arjay and one under god) never actually care enough to look at the source documents? Instead, you rely on others who share your views on "global conspiracy" to draw inferences, and publish them as fact.

I was a little intrigued by your "revelation", one under god, that:

>>the U.S. provided a whopping $16 trillion in secret loans to bail out American and foreign banks and businesses during the worst economic crisis since the Great Depression<<

The first thing I found was that you had simply cut'n'pasted the words - including the somewhat clumsy "whopping" - without any questioning or editing. That's just lazy. If you publish something - even if you just re-publish it - you should at the very least find out a little bit more about the topic. Otherwise, you just look foolish.

Here's the source document, that I uncovered with great difficulty from the bowels of the web, in less than sixty seconds.

http://sanders.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/GAO%20Fed%20Investigation.pdf

I know, it's very long - 266 pages in all - and very detailed. But the key findings were very straightforward.

1. The loans were not in any way "secret". In fact, our own Banks took a couple of slices, which were most definitely covered in local documents. Given the terms, they did well to do so.

2. Whatever the gross amount of those loans may have been - and $16 trillion is as good a number as any - the peak amount outstanding at any one time was a shade over one trillion.

3. The only significant amounts that remain on the balance sheet are those resulting from domestic transactions, primarily purchases of Mortgage Backed Securities (MBS), a programme that was designed to allow the unwinding of toxic assets in a more leisurely, and less panicky, manner.

I doubt that much of that made sense to either of you, did it? You would much prefer the naked hysteria of your pet conspiracy sites, they are so much more fun than reality.

Audit the Fed! Audit the Fed!

Oh.

They just did.

per ridicules..cheap shots

quote..""the key findings were very straightforward.""

ok lets look at yours

""1...The loans were not in any way "secret"."'

yey you claim..""Here's the source document,
that I uncovered with great difficulty from the bowels of the web,""

ok i will read it

""In fact,..our own Banks took a couple of slices,
which were most definitely covered..in local documents.""

are we still talking about yopur link
or just 'local documents..[please name them]

""Given the terms,..they did well to do so."'

not sure what yoyur saying
are you refering to the cash govt pays 2%..intrest on
or the cash it lends out intrest free

were talking about a half a century..
are each loan terms/intrst the same great terms
or wont generalities cover all them..ONGOING bailouts?

""Whatever the gross amount..of those loans may have been""

lol you didnt find that in your sloppy reading of the 'link'?

""the peak amount outstanding
at any one time""...

cloever phrasology ol mate
at anyone time..were talking about totals
your talking about anyonetime...lol

ANYONETIME..outstanding 'loans
""was a shade over one trillion.""

""The only significant amounts
that remain..on the balance sheet a
re those resulting from domestic transactions,""

oh mate...thats a broadbrush..
domestic..like private banker/money trader..business?

""primarily purchases..of Mortgage Backed Securities (MBS),""
made into securities..AAA..then not mortgauge..but securities

[did you notice that link saying all home repo's based on bundeled mortgauges..WERE FRAUD..high ccourts have decided they were illegally seized[ie your banker mates lost the money and the asset

seems when they onsold..the rights didnt transphere
because they wernt a secured party..![no contract..no mortgauge paper
means some bankers are going to go bust..raising the values to re=emberse criminal seizure

the next..""a programme
that was designed to allow the unwinding of toxic assets""

lol

think WHY..""in a more leisurely,
and less panicky, manner.""

cause its odious debt mate
not able to be collected cause of fraud terms

"Cheap shots", one under god? Hardly.

It's called keeping you honest. And asking that you actually look into these things, instead of just regurgitating the hysterical nonsense you read on your favourite conspiracy sites.

All the information you need is in my last post.

You clearly don't grasp the difference between the gross amount of loans, and the amount outstanding at any point in time.

If I lend a million dollars a day, the gross amount in a year will be $365m. If I lend on the basis that each loan will be repaid after seven days, my peak exposure is $7m. Does that make it clearer for you, or would you like me to explain what loans are, how interest payments work, and what happens when a loan is repaid?

So, please forgive me for not counting up every single individual transaction in order to show whether or not the $16 trillion is precisely accurate or not. Feel free to undertake this chore if you like, but be aware that it is a largely irrelevant number.

No-one is arguing - including me - that unwinding themselves from the over-lending that the Banks indulged in will not take time and patience. Nor denying that there are a lot of people who over-borrowed, are in considerable financial strife, and who will need help. If that help means that their loans will be written off, then so be it. But be aware that if the "cure" is to implement that programme overnight, it may well prove worse than the disease. Property prices would take yet another dive, exposing a whole new raft of negative-equity assets, and another round of hardship for millions.

So - painful as it may be for you to consider - while the Banks may have been carriers of the disease, they are also an important part of the cure.

Hence my suggestion: don't panic.

pericules..its time the banks PAID THEIR OWN WAY
a cumalitive total reveals...that many bailouts have been gifted to banks...[yes their outstanding debt..CURRENTLY..might sound small using spin

but then AGAIN
you take that too far

we say audit the fed..FULLY and completly
stock take the assets etc

you say its been audited

so lets read what was audited[from your link]
and what wasnt

""Why GAO Did This Study
The Dodd-Frank Wall Street Reform
and Consumer Protection Act directed
GAO to conduct..a one-time audit/

*of the
emergency loan programs and other
assistance authorized by the Board of
Governors of the Federal Reserve
System (Federal Reserve Board)
during the recent financial crisis.*""

lol

""This
report examines
*the emergency actions taken by the Federal Reserve
Board from December 1, 2007, through
July 21, 2010.*

For each of these
actions, where relevant, GAO’s
objectives included

*a review of (1) the
basis and purpose for its authorization,
as well as accounting and financial
reporting internal controls;

*(2) the use,
selection, and payment of vendors;

*(3) management of conflicts of interest;

*(4) policies in place to secure loan
repayment; and

*(5) the treatment of
program participants.

To meet these
objectives, GAO reviewed program
documentation, analyzed program
data, and interviewed officials from the
Federal Reserve Board and Reserve
Banks (Federal Reserve System).""

hardly what is needed
full audit..not a partial audit

ol mate stop spining/distortion
face full facts

Fair enough, one under god, the audit wasn't the "full" audit. But it was a neat line of mine, wasn't it?

But enough of the sidetracking.

Coming back to the Arjay's opening post for this thread:

>>The US Federal Reserve (A private group of banks) has moved debts of the Bank Of America onto the the FDIC<<

We now know that this did not happen, don't we? We now understand a little bit more about the function and capability of the FDIC, so in future we won't make the same elementary mistake, will we.

>>This is another bailout and means more debt for the US people while the bankers get off Scot free again... This bailout will mean more money printing and the further destruction of the US $<<

We now understand that underwriting the losses of ordinary depositors does not necesarily mean either i) more debt for the US people, or ii) that "the bankers get off Scot free" - primarily because the premiums from the Banks will be lifted to cover any payout.

>>This is the third biggests Corporation in the world that makes up 80% of retail banking in the USA<<

We also have found out, have we not, that neither part of this sentence is true.

In summary, none of Arjay's assertions holds up. Factually incorrect, plus faulty reasoning.

Additionally, we have learned to differentiate between "gross" and "net", have we not? This will come in handy when trying to get one's head around the concept of "$75 trillion of derivatives", the amount detailed in Arjay's complaint. In the article he points us to, they sneak in the odd subtle qualifier, which tends to go unnoticed by you thrillseekers...

"...the New York-based firm’s $79 trillion of notional derivatives..."

Did you see it?

It's that word "notional".

Your homework for today is to understand why they slipped that word in. Once you work that out, you'll know how a Bank with only a little over a trillion dollars in deposits, can support "$79 trillion of notional derivatives"

It will help you sleep better, I promise.

per's quote..""in future we won't make the same elementary mistake,..will we.""

oh come on pericules..the same old defaults as in the past
will be made by the same money loving phycopath's

jesus went angry at the money changers in the temple mate

ceasor got killed by the bankers
for minting his own money

sadam insane..[iraq]..got killed
for daring to make gold coin the only legal tender for his oil

ie sought to demand..his own money]
so too gladfly[caddaffee]gadaffie]
they tried to bring back balance
[AWAY FROM THE BANKERS who run govts]

and then we get into the other events
where bankers made civil war..assasinations
thousands of them

cause the same sickness of the money lenders
needs the same cure

stop govt lending at intrest from the bankers
stop letting bankers set their own terms

why do you need to twist what we are saying

arjay..quote..>>This is another bailout
and means more debt for the US people..while the bankers get off Scot free again...!""

THATS TOTALLY TRUE..!

qrjay..""This bailout will mean more money printing
and the further destruction of the US $<<""

thats true too
mate the yanki dollar has deflated in its value
[inflation only inflates the ammount
not the bying power]

one dollar today
buys what one penny used to buy

if you hold cash..it gets deflated..into nothing[inflation]
the more paper..the less its worth

then you say..""We now understand that underwriting the losses of ordinary depositors""

we arnt talking about depositers
were talking about those..who steal..the depositers money!

think WHY GOVT NEDS TO UNDERWRITE..a bank?

it needs to honour its 'underwriting'..
by borrowing it AT INTREST
FROM THE BANK...!

govt debt can only increase!
look at its history by numbers!

we defate the value of the top end[paper]
but that aslso deflates the coin[at the base]
till we reach the absuditY..that the metal in a coin

*costs more than its face value!

[thats why i say reflate back to its historic[true real value]..by adding back two zero's..to face value[by right of siegnorage]

we got to sepperate the 'virtual paper/promise
from the real economy[coin]

[dont try to split words meanings]
govt control didnt work
banker control has failed

so govt asume BACK coin[at its intended true value in silver
by face not content]

and capitalists lease paper..from a fed
run equally by accountable govt members and bankers

with no bonus for any trustees on the fed board
and wage parity with govt official..not corperatre excess

thats how qld got 80 BILLION into debt
thats how qld'ers...pay 100 million in intrest on it PER WEEK*

thats why our power/water/rego/fines/etc
costs double usa power/etc cost

adin the local council debt..
plus the ever growing fed debt
plus govt dept debt..plus privatised national asset debt
plus corperate debt.[for things like sport clubs/hospitals/power generation systyems etc]

and you got the hide to mention govt guarente of OUR SAVINGS

""does not necesarily mean either i)
more debt for the US people,""

yes it do mate
govt bailout needs cash[or rather an intrest bearing GOVT BOND
that increases any debt NEEDING FUTURE..bailout..[its a vicious circle]

""or ii) that "the bankers get off Scot free"""

lol yes i know the prisons are full of em
lol they got huge money for lawers[thanks to their anual bonus]
so more govt 'borrowing'..from banklers to fight the courtcase[then when they loose as the surelly will[recall oj simpson]

MORE URSURY DEBT
lent from bankers

""primarily because the premiums
from the Banks will be lifted to cover any payout.}}

but mate
WHAT IF BY CLEVER BRIBE[or clever loophole or clever lawyer..THEY WIN[again]

and if all else faile
start a new war
or kill the messANGER
again

sems the 'stock exchange is having a 'teqnical glich'

lol

the virtual economy meltdown?

they only trade in promises for share
not actual shares

http://beforeitsnews.com/story/1285/006/Banks_Have_Put_Americans_On_The_Hook_For_Trillions:_Restore_Glass-Steagall.html
http://vidrebel.wordpress.com/2011/10/26/a-fractional-reserve-gold-standard-the-next-big-fraud/

Ephesians 5:11 And have no fellowship
with the unfruitful works of darkness,..but rather reprove them.
http://dailybail.com/home/video-fist-fight-in-italian-parliament-as-dysfunctional-gove.html

http://www.truth-out.org/occupy-wall-streets-battle-against-american-style-authoritarianism/1319570241

12/for it is a shame..to even speak of those things..done in secret..

http://theintelhub.com/2011/10/26/feds-order-you-tube-to-remove-video-for-containing-%E2%80%9Cgovernment-criticism%E2%80%9D/
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-500202_162-20125720/mexican-drug-suspect-u.s-gave-me-immunity/
http://revolutionarypolitics.tv/video/viewVideo.php?video_id=16455
http://whatreallyhappened.com/RANCHO/POLITICS/ARCHIVE/CRIMES_OF_MENA.html
http://dailybail.com/home/disgraced-hedge-fund-manager-john-paulson-sends-bankster-shi.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TM23k_LXWlc&feature=player_embedded
http://content.usatoday.com/communities/ondeadline/post/2011/10/wall-street-banks-getting-nsa-intel-on-foreign-hackers/1?csp=34news&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+UsatodaycomNation-TopStories+%28News+-+Nation+-+Top+Stories%29

13/but all things that are reproved..are made manifest..by the light..
for what ever doth..*manifest..is of the light
http://weeklyintercept.blogspot.com/2011/10/hillary-clinton-knew-of-qaddafi-white.html

ie
only the real economy egsists
http://news.antiwar.com/2011/10/25/billions-lost-in-secret-federal-reserve-funding-of-iraq-war/

http://poorrichards-blog.blogspot.com/2011/10/european-debt-crisis-creditors-are.html
http://dailybail.com/home/behind-europes-debt-crisis-lurks-another-giant-bailout-of-wa.html
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/blogs/taibblog/owss-beef-wall-street-isnt-winning-its-cheating-20111025?link=mostpopular2

bankers stealing houses
rebuked
http://globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=27282
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkUKW8NtJdE

whats the real issue
http://www.alternet.org/occupywallst/152811/the_shocking%2C_graphic_data_that_shows_exactly_what_motivates_the_occupy_movement_/
http://whatreallyhappened.com/IMAGES/slavevtaxpayer.jpg

heck get your own info
http://whatreallyhappened.com/

Oh dear.

Was it something I said, I wonder?

Take a deep breath, one under god, and try again.

Only this time, be a bit more specific, instead of just objecting incoherently to the little truths I have been introducing you to.

Incidentally, one other point in Arjay's post that is incorrect: Bank of America is not insolvent.

Just thought I'd mention it.

Interesting article....guess more Lays Offs are in the anvil for the
American citizens.

Coming US Elections is going to be a very interesting one for the American Economy as well as the World's Economy.

Vanessa
http://startnextweek.com/courselistings/searchresults.htm/Keywords-finance

perculiar..not much to react with your destractions
so i will put up my comment for your comment

what ya think mate
about the greek weeding..[of debt]
see how the banks have A_GREED..to 'take a haircut'..on it
[with me sop far?]

ok so that means the greek tradedy...has halved its debt
[to 100 BILLION euro]..and guess what..the bankers get a recapitalisation [promise..lol]..to recapitalise them for 100 BILLION
hal;f way through 2012

in short they arnt getting a haircut
we are..[we the mugs that 'recapitalise'..the bankers]

clever stuff aint it
too clever by half

ok thats greece fixed and the peons shafted
and next we face italy..spain..ire=land..and port=ugall

the other clever babnkerwank..is they are going
to put up a bailout fund/bank...to leverage...
a bailout fund into one trillion eu

you know leverage..[fractional reserve lending]
give a bank a fre haircut..and a bailout[100 billion]
tell me how much does that..public debt leverage..into..?

please feel free to reply
see if you can explain

how is a 100 billion gift
they can leverage into trillions
a haircut for bankers...[seeing as its more govt bonds
by other govts..being leveraged..YET AGAIN]

do try to explain ol pal

I assume we're all done with Bank of America? Good.

Now you have concerns about the result from the Brussels eurozone meeting, yes?

It is not clear however which part of the deal you dislike.

Is it the Banks accepting that their Greek paper is now worth only half what it was yesterday? So if your bank bought $1m in Greek government Bonds expecting them to be redeemed for $1m, they now have to accept half of that?

Or is it that the Banks have been told to re-capitalize - i.e. tap you and me to subscribe for shares to boost their capital security blanket?

Or perhaps you are concerned that the backstop fund - the European Financial Stability Facility - is being more than doubled, to add yet another layer of fallback? I assume you know what the word "facility" means? And where this money comes from, and goes to? Of course you do.

So do tell, what's your problem?

Pericles,How did the Bank of America get $75 trillion of worthless derivatives on its books? You tried to tell me last year that derivatives had value backing their numeracy.It is all a crock of BS.This story has not hit the popular media because the banksters control it.

Pericles,you are the personification of deception and hypocracy.How about facing the truth or your own demise?

*How did the Bank of America get $75 trillion of worthless derivatives on its books?*

Arjay, if you do your homework, you'll find that Hank Paulson, who
was Bush's treasury secretary, bludgeoned the Bank of America CEO
to buy Merrill Lynch, as they did not want it to become another
Lehman. And yes, according to the congressional investigation,
there were threats.

ohh peridicules..your a funny man
your wit is about half the wit needed

blind freddy can see that german 'underwriting'[so far]..stands at 570 billion..[falling upon 400 million german serfs..[bailing out 4 million geeks]

if we manage to limit germaniac exposure..to the half trillion so far
and itallie and espania[and portugall..and the land of ire...dontfall in a heap..[costing 2.3 trillion]..then that germanic 'obligation'..in bonds

[carrying intrst/ursury..
to bail out bankers [again]
might prove cheap..but dont be spinning that clap trap
of...

""So if your bank bought $1m""
using our compulsory super 'con-tribut-ion'
or our savings..or yopur councils 'investment' cvapitalisation

""in Greek government Bonds expecting them to be redeemed for $1m, they now have to accept half of that?""

yeah...but were not talking about 1 million
but 200 billion..[just for greece]...bonds..held as securities
bonds that have been insured,,![and become payable in full in a default]..that a volentary 'default..dont pay off the 'insurance']

its just all too clever by half
and you come up wuith simplistic insanity..lik
""Or is it that the Banks have been told to re-capitalize
- i.e. tap you and me to subscribe for shares"'...lol

that if you dont...then the germanmiac bonds will 'underwrite' it
and become payable WITH URSURY..to bankers..from extra odious debt on the cityzenry of germaniacness

mate your a waste of breath
you know..the problems..but prefer to distort and be a simplton..with ya half wity spin...[wont get into the big us bust comming up from them intrest bearing education fees/charges..[more debt that cant ever get repaid..[but held as securitised bonds in your super]

affectivlt you and your pals are just too clever
i hope you enjoy your 30 pieces of silver

sorry about the many spelling errors
but the facts peak for themselves

TOP-DOWN..[trickle affect]
DONT TRICKle down

as i told keven and wayne
thus we bailed out the consumers..[not re capitalised the bankers]
most of us left it in the bank..so the bank got to leverage it

and thats how the germaniac bailout should go down
give the 100 billion immediate recapitalisation..to the citizenry of the eu..[call it a divedend..or an inflation adjustment..but give it to the people[not the bwankers]..

next it is best if its issued in coin
then adjust the face value of the coin..
so the bailout is locked in definitive euro's anmmounts

then revalue the coin..by adding a 0

that boosts the value of the bailout[to the people]
10 fold...

and the consumers go back to spending..
and the debt gets made smaller..[made more managable..]
because there is actual income to pay taxes

and then a transaction tax..on all money exchange
then a death duties tax on business
[no corperation..or trust can 'live' longer than 40 years..]

then its death duties come due!

and the assets sold...[with the corperate trusts limited to bying back no more than 80 percent..of their dead asset values][ie churn]

but its pearl before swine
you will simply ignore the bulk of others opinions

and search for some destraction
to appear clever.,.but half wits only look clever
to other ognoramasses...[and i have noted you have no cheer squad..]

thus arnt fooling no/one

yeah right
silence

you claim a high mind..deserving the high ground
so give some opinion on my last post

nothing there
or a thing that could work..if govts got together
[and stopped listening to classic theory]

the growth model is dead
[noting the insanmity of bank shares in europe overnight 'rallying'..up to 10%..[not bad for overnight funds the bankers gambled on with our measly overnight savings]..but will they bank it...[bail themselves out]

no it hides behind its firewall of a fed controled by govt
when the fed is run by bankers..[getting bankers rates..not public servant rates]

oh well let your silence speak volumes
[expect the next round of bailouts arround xmass time]

ever more bonus for bankers..
ever more debt upon us

all the proffit..but never any pain
[for printed paper..they print for 7 cents each..regardless of its face 'values'..while deflating coin..

to where the metal content alone
out values its face price]

[bring back the coin age]
[by restoring traditional values..

face values that reflect its historic worth..in silver or gold]

oh well the poor have allways been poor
and the nevo rich..well they are rich..in credit[for now]

in the end we all
shall feel the bite of austerity measures
cause so much bad governance has sold off our public treasure's

Oh, hello Arjay.

>>You tried to tell me last year that derivatives had value backing their numeracy.<<

I have no idea what that actually means, dear boy.

Numeracy is the ability to understand and work with numbers. Your sentence therefore makes not a jot of sense.

As I have recommended many times, do yourself a great favour, and learn about your topic before you write about it. Apart from anything else, you might find the material quite interesting.

In this context, teach yourself about derivatives. Understand first the relationship between the instrument itself, and the underlying asset. Then - another of my wise pieces of advice - "follow the money". Track it through its various stages, from bank account to bank account, if you will, right through to the impact if/when the asset itself ceases to have value.

At that point you will recognize two things. One, that the $75 trillion is not a net exposure, but a total of notional amounts. The second is that - while no-one denies there is a problem - the system will be able to re-absorb them into more manageable instruments over time.

Then you, like one under god, will be able to sleep more soundly at night.

>>Pericles,you are the personification of deception and hypocracy<<

Arjay, I know how important it is to you that you keep thinking that way. If you did not, you would have to admit to yourself that I am also clear about the underlying realities.

Which you seem unable, or unwilling, to grasp.

As for you, one under god, you have once again lapsed into incoherence.

>>so give some opinion on my last post<<

If it were possible to detect anything rational, I'd respond, but sadly there ain't. But here's a tip: the world is not about to conduct its business in coins.

>>[bring back the coin age]<<

Has it occurred to you what a trillion euros, in coin, might actually look like?

its futile to try to explain
to one who looks ONLY..for absurdities

and dear boy
thats what you look for
anything else you diss-miss as gibberish
cause your rule one is point out what you can define as an absurdity

but the absurdity lies with you

im not saying issue a trillion euro coin's ol boy
im saying they plan..a 100 billion euro 'bailout'..to bankers

to wit a 're -capitalisation..TO THE CAPITALISTS..
that has failed consistantly..mearly kicking financial armogeddon along the way..[for now]..till the next election

my suggesation related to the 100 billion bailout
[leveraging it ten fold][thus needing only 10%..[10 billion][in coin]

[and to pre-empt your destractive absurdity
i suggest..issueing one tenth that..in coin..
then to revalue the face value of the coin

to fix the bond debt..[to the state]..in euro's

then..by adding
an extra inflation adjustment..[ie an extra zero]
that 10 billion is leveraged..into 100 billion..
HELD BY THE PEOPLE..not bankers

then the bankers are capitalised
from the base up..for pennies on the euro

because top down..dont trickle down..!

so 5 cents becomes 50 cents
10 cents becomes the equivelent*..of say a euro

20 cent equal to 2 eu..50 cent=5 euro..
[in short leverage a bailout to the consumer..
by capitalisation [inflation adjustment]..of their coinage]

one zero now
an extra zero mid 2012
[those prepared to save it...or 'bank it AS COIN..!]
can get a quick cash flow now..or a bigger one in a few years

if that first 0 fails
go the other '0'

[modeling with the true facts
should indicate it will take two zero's

[which brings its real value back in line..
with its intended true historic value...
from when coin was silver/gold..copper..by weight]

but i guess i should stop trying to explain something new
to an ol dodder..[i was going to say ol dog..but that would only give you a selective quote..to destract replying to my idea..

anyhow thanks for replying
and forcing me to explain it again

its only too easy to inflate/deflate paper..!

coin has become lost ammoung the noise
thus the fairity to reflate it back..to its historic value

reflate that inflation
has stolen from us of the coinage
to the advantage of those with paper promise..[fiat paper;money..or cyber credit]

[ie..re-align coin..back to its historic values
as well as return the 'royal mint'..back to govt..
not banker control]

as well
balance the imbalance..currently in the fed
make it accountable..to the voters..not greedy bankers

as well as taxing those not paying winfall taxes
[ie a transaction tax]

plus the fact that 'trust's..never die
and to be fair they must..[thus the deathtaxes]

With the euphoria over the deals reached at Brussels dying down,
the numbers are now being pored over by economists and experts to see if they add up.

One of them is RT's Max Keiser who believes nothing's changed
the EU's still fighting debt with debt
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P8sK9gZEUac

target the fed
http://www.moneychanges.org/2011/10/us-protests-should-target-the-new-york-federal-reserve/

new age parenting..reward the thieves
http://whatreallyhappened.com/IMAGES/parenting.jpg

news crew bailout as police rush in
http://www.disinfo.com/2011/10/abc-and-cbs-news-both-cut-away-due-to-technical-difficulties-at-onset-of-oakland-police-violence/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+disinfo%2FoMPh+%28Disinformation%29

cia mob control
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V_rX3X474gM&feature=relmfu
http://whatreallyhappened.com/RANCHO/POLITICS/MOCK/mockingbird.php

angels rushin where fools folly..[pro-test]

http://occupytheplanet.org/?p=571

send in the marines
http://www.in5d.com/occupy-wall-street-the-marines-are-coming-to-protect-the-protestors.html

http://dailybail.com/home/marines-to-oakland-police-you-did-this-to-my-brother.html

The underlying problem of living..under an economic system
which by design..produces more debt than money
to pay the debt..with more debt..

is still there, as is the policy of looting the people
to enrich the bankers who created that system.

All the European "deal" has done is push the next crash off
(they hope) until after next year's election,..while plunging the people of Europe (and possibly the United States)..further into debt to the central bankers against their will! .

goldman sax harburg..attack a fellow bank[supporting the protesters]
http://mwcnews.net/focus/politics/14421-non-profit-bank.html

bank fraud
http://dailybail.com/home/janet-tavakoli-fraud-as-a-banking-business-model.html

eu-rope..euro
http://dprogram.net/2011/10/27/europe-wallows-in-insolveable-problems-bob-chapman/?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

bail out
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/economics-blog/2011/oct/27/eu-bailout-deal-scrutiny-critics?newsfeed=true

1%
http://poorrichards-blog.blogspot.com/2011/10/one-percent-gigantic-government.html

So what will the super-committee cut?

Money for schools. Money for roads. Money for medical care. Money for education. In short they will cut all those things we agree to pay taxes for.

What will not be cut?

Money for Israel. Money for war. Money for Wall Street.
http://www.socialistalternative.org/news/article12.php?id=1717
http://uruknet.net/?p=m82617&hd=&size=1&l=e
occupy..a
national strike
http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2011/10/occupy-wall-street-launching-first-nationwide-general-strike-in-america-since-1946.html

drug test the 1%
http://dailybail.com/home/ohio-lawmaker-introduces-bill-that-requires-politicians-judg.html

an insider speaks
http://www.noviden.info/article_239.html

carving up the mid east
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DWKb-wL9358

extracted..from
http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/content/2011/s3350031.htm

what they are coming up with is this idea in order to avert having to say to their electorate that there is going to be a kind of fiscal union - fiscal transfer to the countries that are indebted like Italy and Spain, that, "Look, we're not going to give them money.

What we're going to do is we're going to insure their debt," which creates more problems than it solves, because it raises the question of what happens with the old debt which is uninsured?

Who's going to buy that? You can imagine what will happen to the yields of the old bonds.

And there's about three trillion worth of those bonds doing the rounds in the financial markets. Look, let's just be very clear on this: it is a mess, and it is a mess of our politicians' making, and the more they're trying to wriggle their way out of this mess, the more mess they are creating.

TONY JONES: Do you think the markets are going to come to the same conclusion as you inevitably? And - because there doesn't seem to be a great deal here, as you've just pointed out, to help Italy and Spain out of the impending crises that they're both facing.

YANIS VAROUFAKIS: The only good thing one can say about our politicians is that they've created such low expectations in the markets over the last weeks and months that it's very hard to surprise negatively the markets now. So, even if the news is bad as opposed to atrocious, the markets are going to receive a little bit of a boost today.

But I think that once investors pore over the details of what's happening, they will realise that nothing much has happened, so it would be back to business as usual as of the - in the next two or three days.

TONY JONES: OK. A final question because there is another arm to this giant fund and that is a special investment vehicle, as it's called, for public and private investors, and there seems to be

Pericles, you really do have the patience of a saint.

UOGs posts are pure gibberish to me and I don't even
bother to try to decipher them anymore.

I'm sure he is a very nice fellow, but when its all
garbled, its easier to skip over the posts altogether.

As to the European situation, its interesting that now
politicians expect bankers to bale them out for their
self inflicted disasters. Thats not over by a long shot,
its just kicked the can down the road for another week
or two

Agreed, Yabby.

>>Thats not over by a long shot, its just kicked the can down the road for another week or two<<

It's a house of cards, no question.

They're just trying not to sneeze at the moment. By now, most countries have realized for themselves that they are overborrowed on their economies, and are trying to work out how to solve the problem of telling people the bad news, while remaining elected.

Tough one.

Govts over borrowed.What a load of rubbish! These scamming banks we all know and they now admit to it, create money from thin air with the click of a computer mouse and express it as debt to Govts individuals and Corps.Private banks should only loan out money that already exists.

You and Yabby are losing the debate.The revolution has begun but we have to stop the communists from hijacking the debate.Govt does have a role in banking but not in the functioning of the free market.The Socialists want to take over all the means of production.

We will be just swapping one tryant ( Corporate banksters) for and Govt one.Nothing will change.The banking cartels have destroyed the free market just like the communists want to.

the special investment'vehicles'..is another great reveal
seems instead of having..'the bond market'..underwrite the full value of the debt bonded..

this 'new fun-d'..will guarentee 20% return of investment

lol

thats like saying give me 5 bucks
and i assure you you will get one dollar back

so there we go yabby and perculiar
put yuour money where your mouth it

INVEST MATies..
put in your hard earned dollars..[i dare you]

the scam ofever increasing growth is fraud
top down..trickle affect is fraud

[heck even howard super super dooper public fund
has lost value..!..[plus them guys got voting rights ...right?]

see there is the 'other issue'..EVERYONE owns a share
of the shares..via their super..BUT GETS NONE OF THE DISCOUNTS shareholding gets you

has no say re the remuneration
of the public servants sitting on the bored seats
and is making AT best 4% return..lol

we get better investing it as savings

heck there is so much to explain
and so few willing to explain

but its good that per=ridicules
got his...[cheer squad]..yabby

and couldnt find some next thing to ridicule..[this time]
so clearly the rest is what he calls gibberish..[ie hits the spot]
[is beyond disputing..cant be spun arround]

but thats small comfort as all that cash
seeks a place to hold its 'value'

well here is the clue..cash notes are a share..!
proof of debt owed by the bank

IN COIN..!

bank notes are bank bills
we all know what a bill is [right]?

they are a claim on our banking system's base[on the fed what issued them]..just like coins are..only cash is a voting share

till the fed tries to dilute the vote
untill the fed goes.for money-tory quantitive easing
but even then..a fool and his money..are soon partied

bring back the coin-age
or face globbal..[no place to hide]
tell-i-phony rage..

and re the other solution
[web 3]

[please note disappearing the web...
will only see the crime of not having the origonal books]
in-itself clear proof of a dear fraud]

and re the plan to make us sick
gods not going to let that happern again

in the end..a debt is a bet
and ursury a bigger crime than fail-lure to repay..[in full]

so credit where credit is jew
if you paid more than was due

anyhow ridicules..
plenty to ridicule there ol pal

Wrong (yet) again, Arjay.

>>Govts over borrowed.What a load of rubbish! These scamming banks we all know and they now admit to it, create money from thin air with the click of a computer mouse and express it as debt to Govts individuals and Corps.<<

What is the force that causes the banks to "create money from thin air", as you describe it?

It is (drum roll please) "Govts individuals and Corps" asking for a loan.

The money can only be "expressed as debt" if someone borrows it.

What would be the point of taking the trouble to "create money from thin air" if there was no-one around who wanted to borrow it? How would you enter it into your accounts? Elementary bookkeeping should tell you that for every debit there is a credit and vice versa.

This unfortunately demonstrates most clearly the illusions that you and one under god suffer under. You seem to have this impression that Banks merrily create currency on a whim. They don't. It is in response to demand, and the amount that they may lend is managed by the rules that govern prudential reserves.

The problems we are presently working through, globally, is that too many "Govts individuals and Corps" have borrowed beyond their capacity to repay. Should the Banks have refused them their loans? In some cases, yes, and the hiding of risk through the construction of tradeable instruments with fancy debt ratings did not help. The present restructuring of overblown borrowings is conducted by realigning risk, boosting capital underpinnings, and revaluing the loans themselves.

But back to the point: some "Govts individuals and Corps" have over-borrowed.

Fact.

And for you, one under god...

>>plenty to ridicule there ol pal<<

Too much, I'm afraid. Even if I could understand what you are waffling on about. But I will say once more that your idea that the problem is solved by using coins is, frankly, way beyond fantasy.

ridicules..""You seem to have this impression that Banks merrily create currency on a whim. They don't. It is in response to demand, and the amount that they may lend..is managed by the rules that govern prudential reserves.""

prudential reserves..a nice sounding solidity
be honest we are talking about fractions..in reserve
like 2..or 3 percent..that now they need to get up to 12%

reserves lol
held in govt bonds..[taking a 'haircut']

thing is the money wasnt there..[till someone begged for it]
then as arjay says it was made from as much as nuthin..[ie a book entry of a debt..payable at intrest..

based on a valuation..that has been greatly distorted..
by eaasy money/credit...[then..in the hard times
even the assets values will fall;..

for proof look at what usa housing prices have done]



""The problems we are presently working through, globally, is that too many "Govts individuals and Corps" have borrowed beyond their capacity to repay.""

or on the persumption govts can simply sell off assets
or increase chasrges for services indefinatly[well cant get blood out of a stone...;paying with intrsst bearing credit cards isnt sustainable..its danger

""Should the Banks have refused them their loans?"'

bankers deal;ing in local govt funds
shouldnt..have a right to refuse govt..acces to all its own funds..intrst free..!

think of it as community service
not bankers decree..govt controling finance
not bankers controling govt

""yes, and the hiding of risk
through the construction of tradeable instruments
with fancy debt ratings did not help.""

it gave a faulse impression of reality
deliberatly done to create a AAA+ product..to sell to super funds
[to steal away our compulsory super contributions..recieving less than bank intrest]

'"The present restructuring of overblown borrowings
is conducted by realigning risk,""

yes so those bankers
who defrauded us..get their bonus
and the tax payers cop the debt

""boosting capital underpinnings,""

to the crimanal bankers

""and revaluing
the loans themselves."'

not bad..they got monery for nuthing but a book entry
then the intrest on it..now get repaid the debt in full
and the peoples debt has doubled up..[trippled]

""some "Govts individuals and Corps" have over-borrowed.""

gee that's big of you
so why bail them fools out?
only to HAVE to bail them out again next year
only to bail them out again the year after..and after that

as the debt grows bigger and bigger
time the scam ended

show me how real money was lent?
it wasnt..govt is the best able to make ITS OWN MONEY FROM NOTHING
[and to hell with ursury]

Fact.
""your idea that the problem is solved by using coins is,
frankly,..way beyond fantasy.""

mate a sixpence contained 2.83 grams of sterling silver
[ie value..around 8 bucks][in 1965..!]

in 1966..a five cent piece
contains 2.83 grams of nickle
today worth 7 cents..

[no wonder they want to get rid of 5 cent pieces]
then 10..next 20..then 50 then in time even the one and two dollar

then all you got is cyber credit
[held by bankers..to at their whim..make it anything they damm well chose...at their whim your broke]..[at their whim your a billionair]

we cant trust them now..how much can we trust them tomorrow?
thats what your defending

as the bbc pointed out last night
the bankers are taking a haircut..[right]
but the non bankers are getting all the bond value...
bying it at a 60% discount][yet their getting their payment in full]

so bankers sell to their non bank mates
and the derivitivers traders
NOT ADDING ANY VALUE AT ALL
get a rich bonus

but why bother explaining to a know it all
who cant even see coin has the only real value

the conastitutioon says it must be
the ONLY legal tender for payment of debt

a bond is like a post dated check
[with checks..they require signing...[and by signing..
the obligation to repay the ammount..falls upon the last that signed it as having value]..so its buyer be ware..dont sign a legal contract

of truth bonds traders trade in nothing but a promise
that falls due on the last one who sold it

More detail please one under god.

>>as the bbc pointed out last night
the bankers are taking a haircut..[right]
but the non bankers are getting all the bond value...
bying it at a 60% discount][yet their getting their payment in full]<<

I think you may have grabbed onto the wrong end of the stick, but as you don't provide a link or a reference, it is difficult to be sure.

Who are buying the bonds?

as the 'bankers'..are 'taking the haircut
the bond traders...who funny enough control both ends of the bonds
are bying them up..at half price..[ie the haircut price]

knowing yet other bonds..underwrite their full value
i heard it on bbc..who has yet further intrsting reveal last night

but why bother trying to explain things to you
oh clever one

will you be one of the bond holders that cleans up big time
or will your bonds be the ones greece defaults on..next january

the problem isnt as much with the bankers
but those trading in bonds..especially bonds underwriting other bonds

[no one except tha rating agencies..knows which 'bonds' are really junk status..and which have been sold into your super]

mate i dont like talking about the money changers
id rather talk of rev 22.2..[the inspiration for the wikiseed
which led to the coinage revaluation fix]..[you laugh at]

till that one day you need to sell those junk asets
[and what better than a sound money base..based on a hemp seed]

but you dont want to help me explain..and im over trying to explain
to get to rev 22;3..we need to do rev 22;2

anyhow listen to bbc
last nights..world have your say..was intresting too

but im sick of loosing sleep over the whole issue

ps even the 'bank' haircut
ends in a bailout..for the full ammount
ie is really the next banker bailout..[bbc last night said the bank guarentes alone cost britons 100 billion a year]

best we do klike when russia went bust
disperse the assets..[each gets a fair share]
after all their super and taxes..paid for all of it

before the bwankers..tear it all down
for pennies on the pound..and kill any hope of a 'consumer led recovery'

You might need to explain yourself more clearly, one under god.

>>the bond traders...who funny enough control both ends of the bonds
are bying them up..at half price<<

That isn't the way it works, you know.

Here's a tutorial for you, so that you can understand the mechanics of bond trading:

http://www.investopedia.com/university/bonds/#axzz1cVCv04Wf

Section 4 tells you about yields and pricing. Bond traders are merely the facilitators - they do not control either yield or price. They certainly don't "buy at a 60% discount yet get their payment in full", which is what I believe you said earlier:

>>non bankers are getting all the bond value... bying it at a 60% discount][yet their getting their payment in full]<<

The face value of a Greek Government bond will, if the rescue package goes through, be half what it was before. This reduces their external debt with one stroke, and shifts the pain to the bondholders.

Why does this get you so worked up? It is painful, it is probably illegal, and it certainly doesn't entirely solve the problem. But you seem unhappy for a different reason.

Care to explain more fully? Diagrams, links, references, any or all of these would help.

from
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-15491690

""Private *banks holding Greek debt
will accept a write-off of 50% of their returns.""

what about private bond traders?

""The move is expected to cut the nation's debt load..to 120% of its GDP in 2020...Under current conditions,..it would have grown to 180%.""

debt load means current repaynments

""Reluctant *banks""..

not reluctant 'other bond holders'
they still get it repaid in full*
see link

quote/""What is a bond yield?

The yield is the return received by an investor
who buys the bond at today's market price.

Let's take an example. A bond is sold by a government for 100 euros, paying an annual interest rate of 4%, or 4 euros per year. The yield is 4%.

But then the market price of the bond falls to 50 euros.
The interest payment (the coupon) is still 4 euros per year.

So for a 50 euro investment
*the investor..can get a 4 euro annual payment,
which is a return or "yield" of 8%.""

continued at link
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-11743952
The key thing to remember is that bad news
drives down bond prices, which pushes up bond yields.

banks..""..had initially offered a 40% "haircut",
edited see link
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-15472679

Bailout fun d

This can be done in two ways:

By offering insurance to purchasers of eurozone members' debt - in principle making their bonds..*more attractive to investors*

and thereby lowering governments' borrowing costs.
edited

Bank recapitalisation

European banks..
will be required to raise about 106bn euros
*in new capital..by June 2012

so who will issue the bonds?
then who will buy them?

your so clever try answering questions
not putting up links
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/special_reports/global_economy/

from your link
The first thing that comes to most people's minds when they think of investing is the stock market. After all, stocks are exciting. The swings in the market are scrutinized in the newspapers and even covered by local evening newscasts. Stories of investors gaining great wealth in the stock market are common.

Bonds, on the other hand, don't have the same sex appeal. The lingo seems arcane and confusing to the average person. Plus, bonds are much more boring - especially during raging bull markets, when they seem to offer an insignificant return compared to stocks.

However, all it takes is a bear market to remind investors of the virtues of a bond's safety and stability. In fact, for many investors it makes sense to have at least part of their portfolio invested in bonds.

This tutorial will hopefully help you determine whether or not bonds are right for you. We'll introduce you to the fundamentals of what bonds are, the different types of bonds and their important characteristics, how they behave, how to purchase them, and more.

(Before proceeding, it would be helpful for you to know a little about stocks. If you need a refresher, see our Stock Basics tutorial.)

Next: Bond Basics: What Are Bonds?
Test Your Knowledge: Take The Bond Basics Tutorial Quiz
Table of Contents
1) Bond Basics: Introduction
2) Bond Basics: What Are Bonds?
3) Bond Basics: Characteristics
4) Bond Basics: Yield, Price And Other Confusion
http://www.investopedia.com/university/bonds/bonds3.asp#axzz1cX5rqzZd

"".. In fact, many new investors are surprised to learn that a bond's price changes on a daily basis, just like that of any other publicly-traded security.

Up to this point, we've talked about bonds as if every investor holds them to maturity. It's true that if you do this you're guaranteed to get your principal back;""

lol unless your a bank...!

Read more: http://www.investopedia.com/university/bonds/bonds3.asp#ixzz1cX6hQKMd
5) Bond Basics: Different Types Of Bonds
6) Bond Basics: How To Read A Bond Table
7) Bond Basics: How Do I Buy Bonds?
8) Bond Basics: Conclusion

Read more: http://www.investopedia.com/university/bonds/#ixzz1cX5buOGk

Not quite sure why you are quoting my link back to me, one under god. The idea is that you educate yourself on the bond market, so that you stop making statements that make you look silly.

>>Let's take an example. A bond is sold by a government for 100 euros, paying an annual interest rate of 4%, or 4 euros per year. The yield is 4%. But then the market price of the bond falls to 50 euros. The interest payment (the coupon) is still 4 euros per year. So for a 50 euro investment *the investor..can get a 4 euro annual payment, which is a return or "yield" of 8%.""<<

Perfectly correct, as far as it goes. But the market price is a reflection of the perceived risk, as you remind us...

>>The key thing to remember is that bad news drives down bond prices, which pushes up bond yields<<

You seem to be confusing the market price with the redemption, or face value of the bond. The actions that Europe (and the world) hopes that Greece will implement include reducing the face value of those bonds by half. In other words, the coupon is calculated - not on the original 100 Euros, but on the new value of 50 Euros.

Which, in your example where the bond is traded at 50 Euros, means that the interest paid winds back to 2 Euros, and the yield goes back to 4%.

If you then go back to your bond trader, you will find that the value at which those bonds change hands will reflect the new calculation, the distance between today's date and the bond's redemption date, factoring in the new redemption value and the element of risk that still remains.

The element of risk could, of course, push the yield that the buyer might insist upon, back up to 8%. Which would make the trading price of that bond...?

With me so far?

the egsample you quoted was from my bbc link
but heck any reason to prattle your destraction's

so the bankers take a haircut
and the bond traders get the advantage..by 50% reduction
there is still plenty of detail missing..like which bopnds are getting the haircut..and who holds these old or new bonds at half price

but please mate do your thing
[if the media cant explain..its to much to expect your badioc explanations to mean much..[or mine for that matter]

but the total debt gets halved..somehow
but what if non bankers hold more than half
[and they do]..then the bonds issued to underwritre default..are they getting a cut..[who holds that 'insurance/underwriting'..

one sure thing
i bet its the people who get shafted..[again]

any new bonds issued..are only to bailout
those elites holding the old ones..

to pay back the clever guys
who buy them..at lowerd market rate/value's..
not issuing to create/build but to speculate

then bying them via 'leveraging'..like that one dude
that went bust leveraging 40m billion in eu bonds..yesterday
[watch pbs..yesterday]

then trade them like candy
getting nice bonus for any wise by..or shortsell order etc

but its like explaining to a wise rrrrsss
who puts up basic kiddy links..thinking that makes him clever

even clainming the bbc link
as his link

to you the glory ol mate
im over it

mate it all boils down to the bond rate
so lets stop talking about theiory[lol 4%]
and google up the reality

""The rate on the Greek bond maturing in October 2022 climbed 116 basis points, or 1.16 percentage point,..!,,*to 26.63 percent""

http://www.businessweek.com/news/2011-11-03/greek-yield-rises-over-100-italian-bonds-drop-on-eu-ultimatum.html

so lets se the numbers working out

whats DOUBLE 26%..per year?

its fraud
colluded treason

the 99%..[people]
tied into poverty
and the rich..into a nice bonus

heck in just two years you can get double your money
[so where is the glory mate?]
http://www.google.com/search?q=greek+bond+rate

you defend the treasonous
a bailout...or colluded theft

[odious debt..thus criminal colluded treason]

Ok, one under god. It looks as though we are getting closer, although there are still some parts that confuse you.

>>so the bankers take a haircut and the bond traders get the advantage..by 50% reduction<<

The key here is the difference between the traders - who simply trade - and the bondholders themselves, who tend to be banks, or institutions such as pension funds.

The traders are like any other. They handle goods on behalf of sellers and buyers, much like a retail shop. They will match buyers and sellers, who between them agree on a price. The important part being, that the price at which the bond changing hands is completely separated from the original event, when the bond was issued.

Take a closer look at the example you quote:

"The rate on the Greek bond maturing in October 2022 climbed 116 basis points, or 1.16 percentage point,..!,,*to 26.63 percent"

Let's say for a moment that the redemption value of the bond was originally a million Euros, and had a coupon of 4%. The market considers them risky - will the government be able to pay back a million Euros in 2022? They assess the risk, and decide that they would need 26.63% interest, in order to balance the risk that they are taking. So the price that someone would be prepared to pay, for a piece of paper with a face value of a million Euros and a coupon yielding 40,000 Euros per year, is...

150,206 Euros

That's the price that the new bondholder would pay, having assessed all the risks.

Of course, what might happen is that the government unilaterally decides that they will only pay back 500,000 Euros in 2022, and therefore only 20,000 Euros p.a. in interest. That will send the traders back to their overheated calculators to re-price the same bond, yet again. Is it more, or less likely that the government will be able to pay back half a million in 2022...?

Meanwhile...

>>you defend the treasonous a bailout...or colluded theft [odious debt..thus criminal colluded treason]<<

Who is being dudded here, exactly?

peri/quote..""Let's say for a moment that the redemption value
of the bond was originally a million Euros,""

no lets talk in real numbers
IE in the BILLIONS...[total so far..!
of over 100..IF the halving takes place
or actually over 200 billion as it stands today

""and had a coupon of 4%.""

again my brother lets get real
the NEW bailout will be AT 26%
[to pay off half of the previous bonds
ALSO..*NOT AT4%]

as the rate has been slowly rising..over the lasst few years
HECK your the expeert...WHAT real NUMBERS?

i sem to recall the last june payoff of bonds
[were they 4%?]

these bands were paid off at what new bond rate
WHAT WAS THE YEILD on the old and the new bonds
that 'payed the cheap money out?"

leaving the people with 26%
TODAY...!

as..""The market considers them risky""

lol...better to hold bonded intrest at 4%,...or 26%?

""will the government be able to pay back a million Euros in 2022?""
of course...WHATEVER it takes..ITS A SURE BET

the whole eu is banking on it
SO WHY 26%..intrest..thats theft money
its assured to be opaid off/back..SO WHY 26%...except to break the greeks back to peons

the bankers..""They
assess the risk,..""
and reap the windfall
and the 100 bailout..cleanup all round
bonus for bankers all round i rekon

but let continue exposing your
and your mates colluded duplicity
to defraud tax cash from govt..by civil crime called adious debt

ignoreing your self rightious..""and decide
that they would need 26.63% interest,""

bah
germany is going to go bust paying it of
if it defaults..then the neo cons scam clean's up

SO WHERE WILL THE BOTTUM LINE END?

""in order to balance the risk..lol
that they are taking.""

faking..

"""So the price that someone would be prepared to pay""

only a fool
doing as their backroom advisers tell them to do
ie bailout their masters
and impoverish the worlds peons

for what?

"",for a piece of paper with a face value
of a million Euros""

no mate 100 BILLION..
or TWO HUNDRED BILLION
then italy ONE TRILLION
then portugall..espana..ireland..france germany
then the arabs/the chinese..AS MANY SUKKERS YOU CAN CONvince to underwrite capotal excess

""and a coupon yielding 40,000 Euros per year,
is...

150,206 Euros"""

mate your full of it
globally its 3 quadrillion
in paper promises..govt gave to the money changers

""That's the price that the new bondholder would pay,
having assessed all the risks.""

my figure or yours
yours is 150 thousand
heck if thats true WHY A BAILOUT
its BILLIONS ol boy

TRILLIONS in total
just for the eu..[peew]

but your insanity knows no bounds>>""Of course, what might happen is that the government unilaterally decides that they will only pay back 500,000 Euros in 2022,""

ok thats a great plan
GOT ANY PROOF THEY WILL TAKE THE OFFER?

""and therefore only 20,000 Euros p.a. in interest""

mate who is the fool here?

""That will send the traders back to their overheated calculators to re-price the same bond, yet again...Is it more, or less likely that the government will be able to pay back half a million in 2022...?""

half a million..in 21 years
sign the offer..before the nutcase realises what he is doing

i accept your offer
on behlf of your masters

""Meanwhile...

>>you defend the treasonous a bailout...or colluded theft [odious debt..thus criminal colluded treason]<<

Who is being dudded here, exactly
the workers..FOLLOW THE MONEY TRAIL

note the intrst rate..watch who pays
and who collects again

It is crystal clear from your last two posts, one under god, that you have not bothered to do your homework on the mechanics of bond trading. You are so keen to blame the evil banksters, that you choose to ignore the simplest explanation, and instead search for a conspiracy.

There isn't one.

The extent of your misunderstanding can be encapsulated in just one line from your post:

>>leaving the people with 26%<<

If by "the people", you mean ordinary Greek folk who borrow money for their mortgage, you will be pleased to know that their interest rate is linked to the Euribor rate

http://www.hsbc.gr/1/2/en/hsbc-advance/products/mortgage-loans

Which, as you know, has just been reduced again, and stands at 1.25%

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/11/04/markets-euribor-idUSEAP50P40020111104

The Greek people will probably suffer from mass unemployment, reduced income, and a shrinking economy for a few years, regardless of the bond market. But they will "enjoy" interest rates considerably lower than ours, while they do so.

you like to deliberatly distort what i say
and hey thats your right

but look at it like this]
italy bond intrest rate is curently arround..6%
german bond rate curently arround 2%

greece currently 26%
so greec is taking out new bonds at ursurous [oudioud terms]rates
[insane rates]..and to take out these thieves rates..to pay off previous bonds..at much lower rates

so let's hear from you how the greece bond rate..has gone through time
[i watched a graff the other day on abc..that showed its only recently spiked like a rocket]

so look at it this way..better to 'default a 4% bond
or a 26%..bond...[i suspect much the same occured to the people of argentina]...yet in the end they repaid every penny

which is easy to do on a 4% loan
but much harder on a 26%..loan
repaid according to its origonal terms

the people of greece are being shafted..into a contract that doubles their debt every 4 years..!

to repay bond rates
that would take 25 years to double..[if at 4%]

CLEARLY..its better to face defaul;ting the 4%..ones they got now
than default even half at 26%...[that rate is insane..

any politition signing into that
is doing treason..[ie greating murderous/odious debt]..
thus crimminal collusions..not enforcable under law..

and worse made under theat
via sar-cossy and that nuke scientist runing the natzies..

as usual the govt is seerving the corperate intrsts
impoverishing its people

high treason
live with it

I think I now understand why you are having so much difficulty with this concept, one under god.

>>greece currently 26%
so greec is taking out new bonds at ursurous [oudioud terms]rates<<

Bonds aren't "taken out". They are offered for sale. No-one is forced to buy them.

>>so look at it this way..better to 'default a 4% bond
or a 26%..bond..<<

Let's say we have a 1 million euro bond, issued with a 4% coupon. It now changes hands for $154,000, which gives an interest rate of 26%. Asking "which is better to default on" is therefore a nonsense question - you are defaulting on the principal, not the interest rate.

Clearer now?

>>you like to deliberatly distort what i say
and hey thats your right<<

So which part did I distort this time?

i will run your numbers next
its no use explaining that the geeks..
not the greeks are the problem

look at the raw numbers
to pay off a huge debt..[at 4% intrest]
with a much larger debt..[at 26 % intrest]
is insane..[small wonder bankers will 'take half the debt
cause the bottum line means..in 4 years it will be back at 200 billion

ie kick the can down the road
in 4 years following this ODIOUS ..lol bailout'
the same debt will again be at the level it is today

but the debt DOUBLES compounding..every 4 years
[and by then the others debt will have increased..because the bankers got that 'other bailout'..

[equal the origonal debt they agree to temporilly forgo]..

so the most clever geeks in the room
not only got half the debt back[next year]

it trippled the intrest burdon
so the halved debt...increases bigger than half the debt
in less than 4 years

if you could only read the numbers
sort the spin..from the division

lefties isnt the problem
its clever guys causing odious debt
then rushing their quuick fix through
collecting cash..getting their bonus..and having a bigger fish next time

wake up you mugs
the same mob has ALLREADY put our debt up to over 100 billion..!

[add in that 10 billion juliar has gifted to imf
your allready dead walking...serving the corperate state debt]

per ridicules..quote..""Bonds aren't "taken out".
They are offered for sale. No-one is forced to buy them.""

so the most clever guys in the room
the geeks..bought them..because they knew they will in the end win

so letsw egsamin the math
se the bottum line

ie said..>>so look at it this way..better to 'default a 4% bond
or a 26%..bond..<<

you say...""Let's say we have a 1 million euro bond,""

lets say more like real life
so were talking NOW about..[after the haircut][lol]
100 BILLION..[so your egsample..should read 100 BILLION

""issued with a 4% coupon.''
being paid out..by a new loan[sorry bond rate
of 26%..matre thats a rich yeild
no wonder they are prepared to 'take a brief haircat..PLUS a bailout[payoff..next year of the other 100 billion IN CASH..[sorry negotiable bond]

""It now changes hands for $154,000,""
that 'changes hands,..for 154,000,000,000

""which gives an interest rate of 26%.""

ok im wit ya

tell me ol china
who has that sort of cash?
in euro's

TELL me ol china..whats
the FULL capitalisation of the euo's *issued by bankers?

""Asking "which is better to default on" is therefore a nonsense question""

no mate..IN ANY COURT..negotiating from 4%
and negotiating from 26%
gives a much larger ODIOUS DEBT..result

the bigger the numbers
the worse it gets

recall ..italy
BEGINS from 1 trillion plus
germany begins from 23 trillion plus
france BEGINS from 3 trillion plus

""you are defaulting on the principal,
not the interest rate.""

no mate
your defaulting from a contract
that hold your honour..[even if writ in dishonour]
defaulting on 4%..or defaulting on 26%..in 4 years
HAS ONLY COMPOUNDED THE REAL END DEBT..!

in four years its back
to what it is today..!

Clearer now?

Your ability to grasp the wrong end of the stick and wave it about as if it can change reality is the stuff of legend, one under god.

But if you can't bring yourself to believe me, try these folk:

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20110701084650AAY8O3N

The Greek government hasn't issued any long-dated bills recently, according to their Ministry of Finance web site, only 13- and 26- week Treasury Bills.

http://www.minfin.gr/portal/en/resource/section/publicDebt_calendar

Check out "Auctions for 2011", then cross-check with the appropriate Issue Calendar on the left - click the relevant T-Bills category, and you will see the full story of the issue.

The most recent coupon on these 13-week T-Bills has been around the 4.6% mark, with an issue price of 98.85, which gives a slightly higher yield of 4.7%

You still insist on mixing up the issue of the bonds, which is the point at which the loan amount and the interest rate are established, with the secondary market, where these instruments are traded, taking into account the additional risk that has been assessed since the bonds were issued.

The secondary market price does not have any impact on the amount of debt, or the coupon rate.

Before you make any more statemetnts like this one:

>>no mate..IN ANY COURT..negotiating from 4% and negotiating from 26%
gives a much larger ODIOUS DEBT..result the bigger the numbers
the worse it gets<<

... try "following the money"

It is always helpful.

look peri the media reports..
that the next loan will total 8 billion
that they must do it by mid december..

so ol mate..will these be t-bills or bonds
mate they sem to be limping from month to month

so this next..8 billion
gets them out of jail for ''only 13- and 26- week's""

mate the lack of clear facts isnt worrying you?

why post links saying the bond rate is 26%
then you change to-pick into treasury bills..

mate its all just too clever
tell me ol mate..where does the money
[8 BILLION]..go to..how much of that goes to repaying specific debt to your pals...

mate it sems there is no easy solution..
to your follow the money..mantra

im more intrested in why there seems to be
so much to follow..and so little proof..it even goes to greece
is the 8 billion bailing out greece..or greasing up the bankers bailouts

You spend far too much time looking for conspiracies, one under god, and far too little time concentrating on the facts.

>>why post links saying the bond rate is 26%
then you change to-pick into treasury bills..<<

As I have said before, the 26% is the yield available in the secondary market for long-dated bonds. The Greek government hasn't issued any more long-dated bonds yet this year, so we have no idea what coupon a new one would carry if it were auctioned today. You can bet your life, though, that it would not be 26%; that would be suicide. That's why I pointed out the rate on the short-dated T-bills, which is the only measure we presently have.

When the 8 billion comes to auction, the position with regard to ECB and IMF support will be much clearer. I would doubt very much whether they would go to auction with a coupon greater than 5.5% or 6%

We shall just have to wait and see, won't we.

>>mate its all just too clever
tell me ol mate..where does the money
[8 BILLION]..go to..how much of that goes to repaying specific debt to your pals.<<

Considering that part of the current deal involves reneging on 50% of their existing commitments, the answer to your question is "half the amount they borrowed".

>>im more intrested in why there seems to be
so much to follow..and so little proof..it even goes to greece
is the 8 billion bailing out greece..or greasing up the bankers bailouts<<

I certainly don't consider that only repaying the bankers half of what they borrowed from them can be described as "greasing up the bankers".

And far from being a bailout of bankers, it is the government (and therefore the Greek people) who are being let off the hook, not the banks.

pericules..mate...you know
that capitalism..often looses its capital
or makes a bad..looan or bad investment...[so the bankers made a bad investment decision]

if only all of us who made a bad decision
could get half our money back..[BUT WE CANT]

yet here we got the clever guys
who own the global franchise on debt
in the bad situation

that their assets come nowhere near the values they borrowed into
indeed have gotten so intrenched in investing in the wrong thing
that the 4 quadrillion of debt..has less than half a quadrillion of assets..[and that only if we dont all fall down in a heap]

so gettying half back is insane
even more so because the THEOReticat 'loss'
will be made up..in next years recapitalisation..
strabngly the same ammount as the 'haircut'

[bailout..of the lol banker..directly]
using even more govt bonds...[like our 10 billion juliar just promised to the imf]..that in some war will recapitalise other bailouts gone to the eu [if not greece]

and their all in the same boat mate

govts are on credit cards
ie they have ben broken..but recall why
cause the lent from bankers..to bailout the finance market

then underwrote losses
then gave intrest fre loans to bankers
on bonds they have to buy at 2% intrst

so the bankers bought the bonds..getting 2%
with loans the govt gave them for free..

its a shame you
with your clear word skills cant expklain that to them..

they been robbed..and the thieves are stioll counting the cash
send in the cops..before our masters steal even more..

and our leaders collude treason

[police are sworn to serve hrh..ie protect the common weal]..
instead of chasing the real criminals they police revenueraising to give ursury to invester's...stealing by statute

its pssss poor

I think you are making progress, one under god. At least you didn't succumb to the temptation of contradicting anything I said this time, which is definitely a step in the right direction.

So let's go a little deeper.

>>so gettying half back is insane
even more so because the THEOReticat 'loss'
will be made up..in next years recapitalisation..
strabngly the same ammount as the 'haircut'<<

I hear what you say about bad investment decisions.

They did have an excuse, though. The bonds were backed by the government of a European country, one that is a member of the European Union and also part of the Eurozone. Looked at more broadly, sovereign debt is in any event usually at the more secure and trustworthy end of the investment spectrum.

In that context, a bank getting only 50% repaid at the end of the bond's term is a pretty serious event. And in no way can it be described as a "theoretical" loss. It is real, and has to be absorbed into their balance sheet as such.

As for recapitalization, sure, it is necessary to fill the hole left by the defaults. The banks will ask investors to put more money in, in the form of equity - additional share capital. These strengthen the balance sheet in the form of additional cash, which will enable the bank to better withstand any future pain. And in exchange, the new shareholders get to own a slice of the bank.

Have I missed anything?

Excuse the interruption, but I just wanted to thank you Pericles for the ongoing tutorial. When I bother to think about it, the basic mechanics of bond trading is straightforward, but I admit factoring in considerations of time/expectations/yields et cetera and then looking at how things pan out in the real world, lets me muse on how arcane some of the processes and results seem.

As for the situation facing Greece… I sum it up as: did they take out a loan, did they receive the money, did they spend the money, have they repaid the loan, have they renegotiated the loan, are they less worse off than they were? Yes, yes, yes, no, yes, yes!

And they're still complaining? Seems ungrateful. I would love to have only repaid half my mortgage loan. Maybe my mistakes were not borrowing enough and repaying with money I 'owned' rather than with money I 'owed'?

Still, I'm just grateful that general discussion conspiracy threads get informative after Arjay abandons them.

if govt gives 100 billion...[2012]..to the bankers..
its not a haircut..its another bailout..!

this recapitalisation..will only be
by bankers putting on bankfees etc..

but as arjay repeatedly points out
bankers..at the fed can simply create an account..and the money..[in the form of credit]..is created out of thin air..[after a debt is payed..it affectivly disappears..offthe books,..as if it never egsisted..

per's knows this
knows to open a bank is as easy as putting arround 30,000 into the federal reserve account..and lending out the credit..[created from that cash fraction]

we hear that banks need to restore their reserves
back up to 10%...[this in the main is cash in hand..plus the deposit..held in your bankers fed account]..currently they hold betwen 2 and 6 percent of their outstanding lendings..

there is also the actual rental of notes [by the fed..to the bank to be considerd]..if your bank issues any face value note..it costs 7 cents per..to print one note]..that note rental accumulates till the notes get returned back to the fed..[by the issueing bank]

anyhow im sick of explaining things
but bankers dont lend deposited money
but do lend..the extra...abouve their fraction
the fed holds as deposit..[thus fractional reserve lending]

they are lending money that never egsisted..[till the application to borrow[or caqsh in a bond]..went onto the books..the onloy duifference being..a govt bond..is not a unit of exchange..[cant be owned except by the fed]..[so the fed selling them for investerr speculation]

just that is treason
they took the check[bond]..and converted it into debt
before the bankers took over the issuing of money..the govt did it all itself [in house]..for free..

govts being as good as gold..just isnt so [anymore]
now it pays extra on top of what it is forced to lend
and in the case of greece..its 26%..for a ten year bond

to hell with your short term..tbills

im over trying to explain that you
a former banker just treats as a joke

why dont the media explain..it..
cause your explaining it..bit by bit..is like pulling teeth

and im over it

That is funny, one under god.

>>anyhow im sick of explaining things<<

I rather got the impression that I was explaining things to you.

>>govts being as good as gold..just isnt so [anymore]
now it pays extra on top of what it is forced to lend
and in the case of greece..its 26%..for a ten year bond<<

First of all, the government isn't lending. It's borrowing.

Secondly, they are not paying extra. The coupon is fixed when the bond first goes on sale. The yield on the bond changes, after it has been issued, as that bond changes hands in the secondary market.

But there appears to be a greater muddle going on behind the scenes, as it were:

>>a govt bond..is not a unit of exchange..[cant be owned except by the fed]..[so the fed selling them for investerr speculation]<<

A government bond is simply the recording of a loan made, to the government, which has i) a specified repayment date for that loan and ii) a stated interest rate that the government will pay. It can be owned by anybody - hence the secondary market, where they change hands at either a discount or at a premium to their face value.

Some bonds might actually be sold for greater than their face value. This occurs when the coupon is higher than the prevailing interest rate, and the likelihood of eventual repayment is high. For example, if the coupon on a $1m bond is 6%, and the prevailing interest rate is 5%, the bond might change hands for, say, $1.15m, giving a yield around 5.2%.

None of which affects the issuer of the bond. Your "investerr speculation" is nothing more than the normal trading of financial instruments, designed (for the most part) to enable the holder of a portfolio to balance risk and reward.

Your Super Fund does it on your behalf, every day of the week.

>>why dont the media explain..it..
cause your explaining it..bit by bit..is like pulling teeth<<

This might possibly have something to do with the nature of the media you turn to for your information...?

ok heard on abc 24
italy is next
1.8 trillion of debt

300 billion up for renewal
as their ten year bonds are due to be repaid

[not said was how much of the 300 billion will go to bankers..
to repay the intrest only of the last loan..but lets guess most of it]

apparently..the intrest..
[if the bond rate goes up to 7%]
was said to be 70 billion..[just for intrest]

so how much of the 300 billion NEW loan..will be NEW intrest

mate im sick of studying this ccccccrap
i dont want to know

you with your million..to explain billions
mate thats pure spin and destraction

quote real facts//ol mate
real numbers..like those abc quoted on italy
NOT GREECE..just..28 minutes ago

ie the next one to need some haircut/bailout
befiore the big ones france and germany fail
as reported aljesera yestreday

bah
money changers
a pox on their houses
and a jail cell for polititions colluding treason[via odious debt]

I'm sure that we would all prefer that we wake up one morning and find that it has all been a bad dream, one under god.

>>mate im sick of studying this ccccccrap
i dont want to know<<

You are right, Italy is next in the firing line. Its government needs to implement austerity measures, pretty damn quick, to settle the market down. Unfortunately, they are led by a buffoon with other things on his mind:

"The prime minister, who delayed the release of his latest album of love songs because of the euro-region crisis, has been distracted from governing as he faces trial on charges of corruption, fraud and paying for underage sex. He denies any wrongdoing"

http://mobile.bloomberg.com/news/2011-11-07/italy-yield-surge-sets-berlusconi-on-bailout-path-euro-credit?category=%2Fnews%2Fmostread

But stay calm, it's never quite as bad as you believe that it should be, one under god.

>>italy is next
1.8 trillion of debt
300 billion up for renewal
as their ten year bonds are due to be repaid<<

The actual debt amount is not, at this stage, the worrying part. It is the rising interest rate (the coupon, remember?) that will be needed to raise the new money, to replace the old. Interest payments come out of the budget, whose revenue comes from the taxpayer.

Prepare for stuck-pig squealing all across Italy's North.

Incidentally:

>>[not said was how much of the 300 billion will go to bankers..
to repay the intrest only of the last loan..but lets guess most of it]<<

I thought we had already put this to bed.

The 300 billion repays the principal outstanding on the previous ten-year bonds. One lot of bonds matures, you issue another lot to pay them off. All governments do it. Even ours.

As we have discussed before, the money is borrowed by the government, They pay a fixed amount of interest during the term of the bond, and return the principal at maturity.

So of course the $300bn goes to the bankers. They lent the money in the first place.

At least - unlike those who lent to the Greek government - they are getting the full amount back.

Probably.

pers rote quote...""The 300 billion repays the principal outstanding on the previous ten-year bonds.""

thank you

""One lot of bonds matures,
you issue another lot to pay them off.""

and sometimes pay the intrest
but now it sems simply roll it over
[pay it on the never never..while sending the people broke

""All governments do it. Even ours."'

mate were taxed too much
we pay far too much for rent..and houses
and for powwer..and rego/licence fees..and the 200 plus taxes

we are living to work
not working to live

we are as bad off as the abo..from who we stole these lands
we are the coolie..we are the victim of the rum corpse
we are policed and regultated.[we are enslaved]

we elect an elect govt
that lords it over us with lies and spin
who sets rules..signs treaties..that set us up for al these multinational scams[but back to your words]

""As we have discussed before,
the money is borrowed by the government,"'

and as i said before govts USED to do it
now bankers do it..[and bankers arnt elected..
yet tell our elect what to do..TO us..next

to us[the trust]..for proffit.
.not for us..as service

""They pay a fixed amount of interest during the term of the bond, and return the principal at maturity.""

hence the rising state debt of qld has risen
from 65 billion to 75 billion

the same as grece italy..ireland usa..etc etc

...*...*..*"So of course the $300bn goes to the bankers."..8

THANKYOU

""They lent the money in the first place.""

no mate thats the lie
they creded the debt[by book entry]
liability of a bond..

needing extra money
to settle the contract

extra money..they endlessly bleed
from us wage slaves

also under ursury
at odious terms

my fix
ban ursury

all debt must be repaid..in full
BUT ALL INTREST IS CRIMINAL*

did you watch insight last night
so many people running from the cameras..wow

So close, one under god. I really thought for a brief moment that you had got it.

>>...*...*..*"So of course the $300bn goes to the bankers."..8
THANKYOU
""They lent the money in the first place.""<<

The government wants to borrow money. They go to the banks, and offer them bonds. The banks buy them. When the bonds mature, the government gives them their money back. Good deal, eh?

But this is just clutching at straws:

>>no mate thats the lie
they creded the debt[by book entry]
liability of a bond..
needing extra money
to settle the contract
extra money..they endlessly bleed
from us wage slaves
also under ursury
at odious terms<<

Who are "they" in this context? What "extra money"? What "odious terms"?

I think you'll find that interest rates for "us wage slaves" is going down. Both here, and in Europe. Check it out.

mate if your talking about bbankers
and i reply with 'they'..im talking about the bankers

they the bankers created the book debt
which should have gone..off the books
immediatly the bond was issued

because the bank then sold it on
getting a credit on the books

but instead..they[bankers]..
sell it to traders..who sell it
till eventually its again on sold..because its value is govt guarenteed

why is it guarenteed..because the serfs..the wage slaves..are liable for that ammount...at the maturity date..[plus ursury]

its the ursury..[intrest]..thats criminal..when we get over 6%
[the ammount when even italy..[with 3 trillion of intrest bearing debt]..as reported today on deutcha tv....begins to falter..

anyhow you can rave/destract..and ridicule
all you like..

odious debt..via odious terms..
will bring capitalism to its knees
i only tried to wake up the sleepers

but your too clever
at putting them back to sleep

yep all if fine...govt
issue whatever debt instruments you want

capitalists seize whatever govt asset/services you want..
money market steal away the compulsoryu pension contribution

the watchkeepers sleep
im over explaining to any of ya

the rule is greed is god
do as you like

go bernie madeoff..[with billions]
bah..per ridicules..im over it

Doesn't surprise me much, one under god.

>>bah..per ridicules..im over it<<

You do seem to be running out of angles to explore.

So let's take a quick look at your parting shot.

>>they the bankers created the book debt
which should have gone..off the books
immediatly the bond was issued<<

At the point where the bond actually reaches the bank, it will increase their own debt by the amount that they paid, but their assets will be increased by the value of the bond. So rather than "go off the books", we have a pair of matching transactions.

>>because the bank then sold it on
getting a credit on the books<<

If they do sell it on, their debt position will be reduced by the amount of the sale, and the asset itself will disappear from their balance sheet. If they sell it on at a higher price than they bought, they will have made a profit. Whatever, the books will still balance.

>>but instead..they[bankers]..
sell it to traders..who sell it
till eventually its again on sold..because its value is govt guarenteed<<

They may sell it. They may keep it. After all, government bonds look good in the "low risk, low reward" corner of their portfolio. But the government guarantee is only as good as its economy, so if there is a smell that the debt might not be honoured, a) the price at which it changes hands will go down, and b) the yield will increase. The new owner will have assessed that the higher yield adequately reflects the risk. Mind you, he is more likely to put it in the "high risk, high reward" category this time.

>>why is it guarenteed..because the serfs..the wage slaves..are liable for that ammount...at the maturity date..[plus ursury]<<

You see, that's just wrong. The government borrows, the government pays back. In between, they pay interest at the rate they agreed up front. Serfs don't get a look in.

>>its the ursury..[intrest]..thats criminal..when we get over 6%<<

Were you around when interest rates in Australia hit 18%?

I was.

And I'm still here.

i was there then..and worse locked in after it fell
but so what..i never copped the high or the low

you act like a bank has the cash to buy the bopnd
you must know the fed monetises it..not the bank

just as you know the house of settlements
holds most of the actual securities..day traders trade with
speculaters speculate upon..[they never hold an actual share]

come to that the house of settlements dont hold the actual share either...[seems they needed to borrow funds to buy them..so the actual shares arnt even held 'by them'..but those who supplied the credit..so we return back to the fed or other secured party

thing is we dont know
every day 3 times more promise of gold futures..gets traded than all the actual real gold ever mined..[and the connex..has complicated terms to acces the real stuff]

which makes it more vital we know where the 300 tons of libia gold went to[and for that matter who stole sadman insanes gold..[plus that great lump of gold that disappeared when the 911 buildings 'fell down'

thing is our histry is litterd with bankers killing leaders..from the latest[gadafly..sadman in sane..through to jfk and even as far back as ceaser..the common link is they all tried to issue their own govt money[read pres order 11,110]

buty again why should i care
the info is there for any fool to find
anyone who really knows [to wit you]..its only them
who need concern themselves with silence or ridicules...some just know too much

so thank you for revealing how ignorant i am
i will let you have final say

if you think this week was great
you will love next week

its worth noting..a banker now is the new greece leader
italy too big to fail..tune in to the bbc
soon all the bankers go to jail

asset seisure before we become like argentina
[where those in the know..took all the 'ready cash'
soon your cash machine too shall run dry..but in the end ya cant eat money

those who sought it all..then charged extra ursury on top
have achieved what they set out to do

steal your peace of mind .and your job and your home

steal your pensions..and when they shut down overnight..
steal your savings./.your future..then in come those on temp jobs..to rip down your workplace..and export it to china

china..will reap the harvest
will own the patents..ther govt services..your parks..your food
will in time own you..and then recall it was juliar who put the fibnal straw on your back

juliar who gifted 10 billion top imf
juliar who issued bonds..your obligated to serve
[so didnt need to count the intrest on it as a budgetary cost]

they gambeld..you bled
we followed where they led