Most of you are probably aware that a protest movement is taking place in the US. The main protest is going on in New York, but there have been a number of protests in other cities as well.

Essentially, the protesters are opposed to the idea that 1% of the population takes away so much wealth. The fact that in recent hard economic times, the richest people have continued getting richer, does tend to give some support to the idea that things aren't working the way they should.

Here's the rub - the Occupy Wall Street movement hasn't nominated specific goals. They want the President to create a specific department which aims to separate money from politics. That's about it. No real specifics there.

At the moment the movement is divided - do they

A) Create more specific goals and press forward, risking fragmentation and increased pressure, or
B) Continue largely unfocused in the hope of attracting more participants and forming more of a critical mass that can press the government for action.

Thoughts are divided. I'm all for option A, because I'm the kind of person who wants to know exactly what I'm supporting before I throw my support behind a cause. Whilst I agree with the sentiment, I want to know more about how something like that can be implemented.

But that's just my two cents. What do you think?

If you're in one of the capital cities then go to the "occupation" starting today.
It's the usual suspects as far as I can tell, the Greens, Socialist Alternative/Resistance, ILO affiliates,Anarcho Communists and such, the controlled opposition in other words.
I don't give the "occupations" in the U.S much credit, it all seems just like another staged "Tea Party" style campaign, albeit with a Leftist flavour.
It's all so middle class.
It's funny, I'm reading a book on Australian republicanism at the moment and I'm reminded of Horatio Wills and his short lived "Currency Lad" movement.
He had to discontinue his newspaper when the owners of the printing press he was using objected that his calls for independance might be sullying the name of their mainstream publications.
Then his Nativist "Lads" cooked up the brilliant plan of challenging the English "Foreigners" to a cricket match/drinking competition to settle the issue of who was the superior race.
That about sums up my feeling on any "occupations" taking place in Australia, they'll take the same aimless, laconic, meandering path that activism always takes in this country.
Then because the beer is cold,the sun is hot and the cricket season approacheth the revolutionaries will retire to their watering holes for the usual earnest discussion of what a great statement they've made.
The Currency Lad's main gripe with the NSW corps was over the shortage of alchohol, that revolution could have been nipped in the bud by giving him more beer.
What would mollify the "occupiers"?
Gay marriage?
More trams?
Community processing of irregular migrants?

Too easy.

Jay, tremendously cynical and probably accurate.

Cynical yes and true maybe.
But in the strangest way it proves action, needed very much so, may be pointless.
Some will say I am quite mad, but such activism as is proposed here has taken place before.
It is the very thing we found good in the Arab spring.
Bad in the UK riots.
Others understood Veterans marches on Washington.
Australia's 300.000 marching against the Asian war, thought then to be unpatriotic.
Who thinks that now.
Do we want to remember America shooting dead its youth in places of learning for protesting?
And Martin Luther king marching for freedom, then, like very many Lynched Negro's dieing for it.
For every e mail, we all get them, depicting Obama as a monkey.
A protester as a left green fool.
A right wing nut steps up, to prove we all may be.
Now for my unpopular thought.
America, its CIA its FBI while telling us no Mafia existed, was introducing drug Culture to,its youth, why?
To use funds raised in other things yes.
But to control protesting stop it, and it will continue.
I ask this question.
In my thread about one world government,and here.
Why do these folk think they need to protest.
And who f us [NOT ME FOR SURE] think every thing is ok?

TRTL
If the Occupy Wall Street Movement was putting themselves up for alternative government or offering themselves as an alternative party, I would want to know more, thus Option A would be appropriate.

However as a protest against 'greed' (for lack of a better sentence for the moment as time is pressing) and the imbalance of power/wealth I am all for it.

Grass roots movements have a place in this context.

Hey Pelican,
I'm all for a good rally, just treat it as the sport that it is.
Everyone feels good after a bit of a chant and a walk around, you get to sit in the sun if you're lucky and hear some speeches, read a few pamphlets.
Last one I went to I bought an amusing badge from a cute Socialist Alternative girl, it bears the following slogan:
http://profile.ak.fbcdn.net/hprofile-ak-snc4/41569_2321469211_4040042_n.jpg

If anyone's going, take your own water, they charge up to $4 a bottle in the CBD.

The core issue is the monopoly powers of money creation by the US Federal Reserve.The Central Banks created this problem and now are making it worse.

Jay:

Four bucks a bottle of water!? Hell, we oughta organize a separate protest against that.

(To be fair, I'm not in Australia at the moment, so my indignation is hypothetical).

To be honest, I don't think Australia is quite as justified in taking to the streets over this issue. Our regulatory institutions and banks are quite a bit more strict than their US counterparts, which is why our housing market and banks didn't collapse quite so spectacularly as theirs did - we didn't have as many toxic loans. (Granted, it's more complex than that and you've got to factor in China resource demand and whatnot, but the fact remains that we're not quite where the US is).

pelican:

Not sure if I agree with you. Allow me to offer a contrasting situation:
There's a G20 meeting coming up in France soon. Protesters are gathering on the streets, but their goal is much more focused - they're pushing the G20 to support a tax on financial transactions. Instead of venting general fury against the status quo and rich fatcats on Wall Street, they have a single specific goal. This means we can more easily measure their success and it puts lawmakers in a position of having to justify why they don't support such a tax.

It also means they have the chance to score support from people in senior positions, who might be hesitant to support amorphous protest groups who may one day become a liability - it's far easier to support a proposal than a group, because you don't risk being damned by association. The financial transactions tax has scored support from EU Commission President Jose Manuel Barroso, who says the tax could raise 55 billion each year, which would be taken from the pockets of the wealthiest members of society, taxing them the way taxes like GST tax the rest of us doing other forms of businss.

Arjay,
Unless the focus of the "occupations" are the abolition of usury they're misdirected.
The banksters rely on the authority they get from "democratic" governments, as in past times they are legitimised by their association with Kings, the churches and temples etc. The problem is as old as civilisation, there are some who'd argue that civilisation itself is a product of those relationships, that the parasites created their own host.
The only real answer to this corruption is a non hierarchical society, no gods, no masters = no banksters.

Occupy Wall Street and "The American Autumn": Is It a "Colored Revolution"?
Part I
by Michel Chossudovsky

http://globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=27053

I think the Indonesians should have a 'sit in'as our rotton capitalist system gives dole bludgers a far higher standard of living than most of them could dream of. That's right they need to earn a living to feed themselves even if they only earn $2 a day.

We all can learn from contributions to this thread.
Some views fixed and bigoted at the same time are also uninformed.
Think the right, seeing this as a leftist thing are unconcerned that they too, are victims.
Also think, strongly, the very left do much harm to an issue that should be across the board.
The Violence? how truly stupid, it defeats the purpose of the whole thing.
Just maybe that is the reason for it.

Jay of Melbourne,you are right.We have to aware of agent provocateurs at these demonstartions and who is actually funding "Occupy Australia' As Michel Choussodovsky says,many are funded by the elites to confuse and dilute the power of the people.I've heard from many sources that Get Up is funded by Geroge Soros.

If you go to a demonstaration take a camera.Discourage violent protestors, alert police to potential violience,film and post on the web the faces of the violent ones.

They are looking for excuses to stop all demonstrations in the light of this new awakening.

If the banksters lose their powers of money creation,there will be no more wars and far less poverty.The people will finally be free.

I googled the name of the Sydney campaign organiser on this.

All the expected references came up. Socialist Alliance, Marxist
conference speaker, save the refugees, stop the Iraq war, etc.

Its just the same few hundred, plus a few hangers on who want
a day out for amusement, with nothing else to do. They certainly
don't speak for the 99% as they claim to. Facebook and Twitter
just make organising these kinds of events globally, all relatively
simple.

Once something is funded it puts a bias in place. If you are sincere about something, you don't need funding.
In the 60"s a large gatherings were obtained from universities, always looking for spare cash, it was called hire a crowd.

This piece actually outlines my thoughts very well. Yes, it's from a humour site, but that doesn't preclude it from being spot on.

http://www.cracked.com/blog/3-types-wall-street-protesters-hurting-their-own-cause_p2/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=fanpage&utm_campaign=newcolumn&wa_ibsrc=fanpage

Arjay, I suggest you give it some serious consideration...

Well, tell me I was wrong.
Both sides just here in this thread and just so far.
Prove this has a big hill to push its barrow on.
We look at the left, best informed of us, UNDERSTAND they infect, every issue.
Try to make it theirs, and do harm great harm to the protest.
Right?
No different.
This issue is a true and just one, should be the middle and the majority driving it.
But the one percent, can ALWAYS rely on us, to best serve its interests.
Banks across the world Socialize debt, [we pay it]and profits are theirs.
And us?
We have more concerns about left or right and white wash the issue.

Jay
It is not really sport in the sense of the 'usual suspects'(a rare beast these days) who are involved in the Occupy Wall Street campaign. The groups seem mixed and include both Republicans and Democrats. While coming from different ideological perspectives there is a collective sentiment of anger which has been building since the GFC. Arjay's point is only one aspect.

TRTL
I take your point but cannot agree that the movement is not worthy of support. It is surprising this modest uprising did not happen sooner in the US. Sometimes it takes a groundswell of disappointment in governments' handling of the economy and in particular threats to democracy experienced by a growing imbalance of influence, wealth and power. The options are pretty clear - governments need to get back to the grass roots and start representing their constituencies.

The sentiment is stronger in the US because while ordinary people lost their homes and/or jobs during the worst of the GFC, banks were being bailed out ostensibly by taxes raised primarily from the tax-paying lower and middle income classes. There is a growing unease with the failure of governments (not only the US) in regards to the burden of taxation. This article is an example:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/16/opinion/sunday/we-thought-they-wanted-to-be-like-buffett.html

While the protests do appear generalist in nature on the basis of the Wall Street focus, I am not sure that is not a bad starting point from which options can spring. Afterall the erosion of democracy happens slowly, suggesting the process can be reversed.

Pelican, in that case the demonstrators should be demonstrating
in Washington, in front of the headquarters of the Republican
party. But it was of course the peoples choice to elect the
new senators etc, who have defeated Obama.

How easy to blame the bankers, for the peoples own stupidity.

Yabby
It is not about 'blaming' the banks or Wall Street in entirety, but protesting at the government's policies that led to the GFC.

While I understand your knee-jerk response to anything that smacks of anti-business, the protests go much deeper. It is always the government's responsibility to regulate the economy and to ensure fairness. However, there is some blame to be apportioned if and when business employs dubious practices to grow influence involving corruption and a lack of transparency. The out of proportion response to Wikileaks demonstrated how real the threat when the early revelations about Swiss banks and tax evasion became public knowledge.

The US has had some pretty disastrous record of appointing members of Boards or Regulatory Authorities who have blatant conflicts of interest especially in food regulation.

Bottom line is people are fed up and one cannot pretend that it isn't happening nor why. There are other factors including ever-reducing transparency in government dealings and pressures and imbalances in free trade.

Fact is the protests are real and it would be foolhardy to assert the sentiments are misplaced, or the group is a radical Lefty conspiracy or out of step with reality. I would have no difficulty in marching along with these groups should the opportunity arise.

"""
How easy to blame the bankers, for the peoples own stupidity.
"""

Come on Yabby, the people didn't roll up loans and sell them off as collateralised debt obligations. True they didn't have to take the easy loans loans which became toxic, but then if you do something silly in your own business, I'll bet no government official is going to hand you a million dollar bonus and allow you to keep trading as nothing has happened!

If you're truly for the free market, then these scumbags should have been allowed to fail, just like the rest of the population!

*but protesting at the government's policies that led to the GFC.*

Well in that case Pelican, its yet another reason to demonstrate
in front of the Republican party headquarters, for of course it
was the Bush regime who were responsible. The people carry the
responsibility of having stupidly elected him twice, they can
only blame themselves. But it is a human foible to blame everything
but ourselves, when things go wrong in our lives.

In Europe they are demonstrating against cutbacks. Well it was
Govts elected by the people of those countries, who borrowed too
much.

*Bottom line is people are fed up and one cannot pretend that it isn't happening nor why.*

Oh the "why" is easy. Ever since the release of the iphone and other
smartphones, people can walk around whilst on twitter and facebook,
organising the next demo as easy as pie. Technology created by those
"evil" corporations, has made it a breeze, so they can and they do.

*I would have no difficulty in marching along with these groups should the opportunity arise.*

Pelican, your political views expressed on OLO, are hardly middle
of the road. More like leftie greenie, which is only a small %
of the population, mostly feelgood dreamers

Raw Mustard.
Truly never thought I would agree with anything you say,did this time.
It is about greed,uncontrolled and unpunished investing greed.
Republican stubbornness, a separate issue, but a symptom of an illness.
Ronald Regan,idolized for it, hurt his country a great deal, by removing what checks and balances existed.
Never enough.
This protest will continue.
And it will too continue to be damaged, by design, by people from all sides turning it to some thing it is not left or right.
It takes little imagination, to understand the violence its self may be paid for by interests other than protesters.
It took place in Egypt, it is happening in Syria, why not other country's.
Deception is a weapon.

Yabby
This is not about Right/Left politics as much as I can see you are still easily tempted into ad hominem attacks. It is a good avoidance technique but has little relevance to the issues being discussed.

The financial sector is not blameless Yabby and I can understand why the protests are focussed on Wall Street but agree the protests could also be 'at home' in front of the White House. In fact I think the protests are moving about between the two.

It is Wall Street that has influenced the idea of share price as the only indicator of success in business, leading to all sorts of ridiculous short term strategies including uneccesary layoffs and pressures on employees to engage in unethical practices to meet the bottom line.

While some might think it is 'good business' practice to talk up stocks that are clearly dogs to make commissions (eg. Merril Lynch fraud case) but many people from the Right and Left are no longer accepting the lack of ethics so dominating business.

I urge you to read American's Cheating Culture by David Callahan which offers insight to changing ethical and moral compass specifically in business practice. He writes more eloquently than myself and while more relevant to the US the ideas can be applied globally. Callahan also makes reference to a growing ethical wave in relation to personal morality which is not matched by an equally strong force in business morality particularly by the Conservative Christian Right. He offers a rare insight into how and why this mindset originated. It is not anti-business only anti-corruption and speaks to the lack of regulatory checks and balances in the US financial system.

IMO it would be a mistake to assume these protests are only from the usual anti-globalisation suspects.

http://www.cheatingculture.com/aboutdavidcallahanhtm/

"TurnRightThenLeft", wrote Friday, 14 October 2011 6:17:06 PM:

> Most of you are probably aware that a protest movement is taking place in the US ... Occupy Wall Street movement ...

Professor McKenzie Wark, from the New School NY, will speak on the implications of the Occupy Wall Street movement in "From thought as an occupation to some thoughts on the occupation" at the University of Sydney 6pm, 18 October 2011 and at the University of Canberra, 11am 19 October 2011 (Room 2B02): http://blog.tomw.net.au/2011/10/theory-of-web-enhanced-protest.html

Oh Rawmustard, if only the whole Wall St saga was as simple as press
headlines made it to be, I would completely agree with you. The
devil as always, lies in the many details.

Even our banks have packaged up housing loans into derivatives,
its quite a legal process and common. The problem was in the ratings,
not the fact of cdos being sold.

The biggest bail out went to AIG, an insurance company. Because the
Govt knew if they went down, so would the 401K pension plans of millions of Americans.

In the end the Govt and Fed faced a simple reality, print money
or face a global depression. They took the easy option.

Fact is most investors in the investment banks and some of the
retail banks, lost their shirts, including many employees, many
also lost their jobs. Most of the bank loans were repaid, with a
profit to the US treasury. The GFC was a culmination of many
things including unions pushing GM over the wall, which sent them
bankrupt. The Govt did not bail out GM to save shareholders, who
lost their shirts, but to save millions of jobs.

The whole notion of "too big to fail", is that the damage is so
large, that workers and the economy will be the big losers, if
the whole thing plays out. Would you have preferred a global
depression?

TRTL,

These protests are a joke, and have the weight and impact of a feather.

I saw a pedestrian yesterday walk past and throw them a few coins. Message not received!

The greedy corporates are no different from the deceitful left who fill thousands of tax payer jobs. Look at our current climate change department. How could anyone complain about corporate greed when you have so many on the gravy train. It seems the left are experts at creating jobs that do nothing for anyone but put out spin.

the minute a 'leader emerges the protest is over
the only way to make real change is to stay..and not let the issue go away

it should be live blogged to the world
everyone should be connected to the web...all the time

communication [speeches]..should be by radio broadcasting
pick an unused babnd...for each special topic
and discuss..record post onto web...
forming a topic/list of solutions

involve those there to protect you

Sorry, no point in avoiding it, the comments of Shadow minister and runner frighten me.
They actually seem to believe the weird ideas they post!
Next multi million, maybe billion Enron type fraud/loss will without doubt!
Be a lefty plot!

Belly,

You are scared at my comment on the ineffectual nature of the protest?

A couple of disheveled youths with cardboard signs is hardly going to strike fear into bankers.

*but many people from the Right and Left are no longer accepting the lack of ethics so dominating business.*

Gawd Pelican, what amazes me is the naivety of so many people, about
business. If you are concerned about ethics, go and trade with
the Chinese. Just remember to count your fingers after shaking
hands. Business is a jungle and its been that way for as long
as I can remember. All business, there are greedy people right
through the community. This notion that corporations are evil
and small business and workers are not, is frankly bollocks. Some
of the most dishonest people whom I have met have been workers and
small business people. I've also met incredibly generous and honest
corporate leaders.

Why do you you think I moved to the country, where a handshake is
still taken seriously and your word is your bond. That is extremely
rare in this world, the ratrace is full of rats. I was aware of
that in my late teens, after seeing how business operates in Europe.

So frankly, chanting about corporate greed is a heap of tosh and
quite simplistic.

Do you think that there is no greed within the Canberra public
service, as they feather their cushy nests?

there is no need for greed nor fear
there is plenty for all

all we need is a true sepperatrion of powers
and nominate which power we give our due to

the capitalista can run their capitalists
sepperate from govt[and the church]..they only make laws/rules
for the good of the trust[the people]..not break them

so sepperate money creation
from money banking...from money speculating
never the twain shall meet..no govt to capitalists

only a fair share due to all its people
to those who have skill or credit or asset
more4 shall be given..to those whith debt..it will be repaid in full
but no ursury]..govt pays out your debt...assumes trust over the assets..TILL YOU PAY OFF /back..EVERY cent[plus small handeling cost]

win
win

we either all win
or we all loose

werre all in this together
we sink or swim together

Belly you write

',Sorry, no point in avoiding it, the comments of Shadow minister and runner frighten me.
They actually seem to believe the weird ideas they post!'

That is exactly what is wrong with your mob. You only believe what you think might get you elected or what might get you to cling to power. You might disagree with our beliefs but at least we are true to our convicitons exposing the hypocrisy of the Labour/Green Government.

Hee, Hee!, runner!

Are you inferring that the Conservative side of politics is beyond being driven by "what they think might get [them] elected and what might get [them] to cling to power"?

"Convictions" and "hypocrisy" are universal, not only in politics, but in human morality in general.

Yabby
Yes of course there is greed in all organisations including the public service. We have discussed public service deficiencies often on this forum. You will get no argument from me there. That is exactly my point - not enough relevant checks and balances.

The trouble is you and others are too busy dishing out on the non-existent (and hardly influential) Loony Left that you completely ignore the activities of the Loony Right and what has led to these riots.

Instilling fear about the Left may work as a strategy for a while particularly in countries like the US where even universal health care is deemed 'Communist' however you can only fool people some of the time, people are beginning to see through the spin, hence the protests.

It is about time.

Pelican,

"loony right" - LOL

C'mon, Yabby, you're a critic of the likes of Bush and Cheney and their merry band of neo-cons. That lot made an art form of syphoning off taxpayer's money and funnelling it into the pockets of corporations. Heck, they even went to the trouble of invading Iraq more as a free lunch to corporations than for any altruistic purpose. They made a squillion from blowing it up and knocking it down (arms manufacturers)...and then the likes of Halliburton and Blackwater (to name only a couple) made squillions building it back up......and then the taxpaying mug was expected to bail out Wall ST when that balloon went up.

Why are you surprised that these people are staging a peaceful protest? (not that they can expect anything to come from it,imo)

I love to laugh
Bit cheeky with a few beers in me, but no drunk.
Runner and others give me ample opportunity to laugh.
This phantom left,as Pelican says ,has enought power,with help, to blow out a candle.
Here in a matter fast becoming a bigger one.
NEVER A left only one, we see counterfeit Christians, forgetting it was THEIR GOD who on form,WOULD throw the one percent out on the street.
This issue is not of the left, unless you say left of, greed, power, privilege, uncaring theft, of others cash.
Last laugh, leave em laughing.
Rechtub, has started a thread defending? Negative gearing!
Our anti welfare/wages/workers poster is asking us subsidize? those with INVESTMENT PROPERTY'S.?

*C'mon, Yabby, you're a critic of the likes of Bush and Cheney and their merry band of neo-cons.*

Poirot, of course I'm a critic! I was a critic before Bush and
Cheney even gained office. for the outcome from those two was much
as expected.

But the people voted for them, as they voted for Yeltsin in Russia
and then wondered when disaster struck.

Sadly democracy is the least worst option that we have and clearly
people need pain to learn. Don't blame corporations for the
public's stupidity. There are terrible corporations and great
corporations, much like we get all sorts of small business and
all sorts of people.

*however you can only fool people some of the time, people are beginning to see through the spin, hence the protests.*

Lol Pelican, so people are complaining about their own foolish
political choices. As Susan Greenfield pointed out, the brain
is more like a gland which sometimes thinks a bit. She is clearly
correct!

Given the "woe is us" about corporations on OLO, with few
seemingly understanding how and why they function, perhaps somebody
has to provide a bit of balance to extremists such as yourself :)

Yabby,

Perhaps you'd be so kind as to explain to us just what political choices Americans have. Can you enlighten us as to where they went wrong....and why do things seem to be operating as business as usual even after the great hope, Obama, was elected....?

I'd say I stand halfway between the skepticism of Yabby and Shadow Minister, and the more optimistic commentary of pelican.

The first thing everybody needs to realize, is that the idea of adding more 'soul' to capitalism is retarded.

The very concept of capitalism is competition. It has no soul, if it was profitable, capitalism would eat you up and spit out your bones... then use those bones to create fertilizer for erection-enhancing medication, or whatever other demeaning fad is the cause du jour.

Yet, this is not a bad thing. This is why we have government - governnments are there to ensure capitalism doesn't eat you and your family in the name of shareholder profits.

Capitalism is still a damn sight better than the alternatives. Which is why ranting against capitalism is just plain silly. Capitalism is here to stay, the alternatives are far far worse.

On the other hand, I don't think the Occupy Wall Street movement can be dismissed out of hand - the fact is, although we are going through a recession, CEOs and banking organizations continue to raise the salaries of senior executives.

In a recession economy, there is no justification for this. The fact that this can happen, shows that regulations are indeed far too lax.

More importantly, with the US going through a recession and high joblessness, there is a groundswell of support for such a movement.

The overly cynical also need to take a reality check and digest this salient fact:

Americans are pissed off. If history is anything to go by, the time is ripe to launch a protest movement. If it's not through this protest, public disillusionment and anger will find other outlets.

Personally, I think the biggest liability here is what I like to call the "equal pay for gay whales" theory.

Essentially, this theory of my own devising says that if you take disparate causes, which individually may have merit, and combine them into a single movement, you will sound like an idiot and fail to achieve your objectives.

"""
Would you have preferred a global
depression?
"""

I agree with most you've said, Yabby. But we going to get global
depression anyway. All they did was pee people off and extend D Day. It aint over yet.

*Can you enlighten us as to where they went wrong....and why do things seem to be operating as business as usual even after the great hope, Obama, was elected....?*

Because Poirot, after the people elected Obama, they later cut
his testicles off by voting a majority in the Senate etc as
Republicans. So he can't move on anything and republicans want it
that way. They want a sick economy until election day next year,
to get rid of him.

*All they did was pee people off and extend D Day. It aint over yet.*

RawMustard, just because you are going to die one day, does not mean
that you need to shoot yourself tomorrow. The present crisis is
EU based, a far greater problem then America. That was caused by
Govts living it up on borrowed money until now their Visa card is
stuffed. If Govts can't pay their debts and have no printing presses,
they will drag down a good portion of Europes banks with them, who
loaned them the money.

Let's cut to the chase and stop all the BS.Who creates all the money in the West,to equal increases in our productivity + inflation?

IT IS THE PRIVATE BANKING SYSTEM WHO OWNS OUR PRODUCTIVITY BY VIRTUE OF CREATING FROM NOTHING,ALL THE MONEY TO EQUAL IT! WE ARE THEIR DEBT SLAVES! ALL OTHER ARGUEMENTS ARE DRIVEL AND MEANINGLESS.

Arjay, you really do need a nice cup of tea and a good lie down.
Then perhaps ring for help, you are becoming increasingly obsessed,
its no good for your health you know.

I am nobody's debt slave. I worked my arse off years ago, but
I don't owe anybody anything. So speak for yourself.

We've explained the private banking system to you, but you will
continue to read your conspiracy websites. If your heart goes
pfffft, with all the rage, all the money in the world won't help
I'm afraid.

I understand what you're saying, Yabby. But where now? The disparity between the have's and the havenot's is huge. The problem as I see it is the havenot's want to suck more from people who actually are prepared to work, governments are made up of these types so we're in a no win situation.

It was governments endevour to protect the havenot's that allowed the have's to make the fortunes they have. The laws passed in years gone by have benefited the have's far more than the havenot's. whether this was intentional or not is another huge debate, but as the havenot's have felt more trodden on, they've demanded more of the same which has led them to where we are today. How do we make people realise they need to stop demanding government help them and get the hell out of our lives so we can all compete freely?

The attack on wall street is justified IMHO. But I don't think they really understand what they're protesting.

And I know you don't agree with Arjay's views, but he is correct from a certain point of view. Monopolies are never good and a private monopoply on the creation of currency is the worst you could have.

Rawmustard, nope, I think that Arjay is wrong. At the end of the day,
profits from Reserve Banks land up back with Govt treasuries. There
are good reasons to create seperation between politicians and the
printing press. Imagine the pork barreling, if that were not the case.

As to the rest, I've always maintained that the speed of change is
governed by the speed of communication. In the days of the carrier
pigeon, that was pretty slow. The letter speeded things up, the
fax even more, now with information flow globally and instantly,
so is the speed of change. That is very unsettling for a great many
people, as people prefer some kind of certainty in their lives.

Think about it. If you worked for Nokia just a few years ago, the
world was your oyster, now nobody wants to talk to you. Everyone
globally is now innovating and so change is far more rapid then ever
before. If you own a bookshop, a video store or a music store, you
have or are about to lose your shirt, as the world moves on without you. etc.
There are many examples.

All this change is producing all sorts of winners and losers. China's
explosion is adding to all that, in a place like Australia.

So to try and cut it short, I think that all these dramatic changes
in society are producing alot of restlessness and uncertainty.

I see that in the town closest to where I live. A bloke might have
a good job, but the wife likes to spend a bit and sees what fly in
fly out miners are bringing home and how they are living it up.
People compare, now she wants what those women have. etc. Next
thing he's off to the mines. Had that opportunity not existed,
they probably would have been quite content with the world.

Peoples ever growing expectations are IMHO the real problem. I
am quite happy and appreciate what I have, but it seems many don't.
They always want more

Yabby,

You seem to think economic woes are all down to the Euro zone. The U.S. have worse fundamental data than many of the standout debtor countries in Europe. We hear of Greece and Italy which have sovereign debt as percentage of GDP at levels higher than 100 percent (Greece's is around 142 percent,Italy-119). Portugal and Ireland are often mentioned also, yet Belgium has worse figures than both.

U.S. public debt has reached 100 percent of GDP - so it's worse than most countries in the Euro zone..

Here's a peek at Euro sovereign debt.
http://edition.cnn.com/2011/BUSINESS/06/19/europe.debt.explainer/index.html

And this is interesting...
http://www.usdebtclock.org/

Yabby is a supporter of Americas current Presedent, so am I.
He in my view, is both on to some thing.
And victim to it.
America fell for a Movie made in real life, a propaganda one.
In America public opinion, much like Australia, is a Movie in the making.
America put Republicans, TEA PARTY ones, in control.
Driven by power influence self interest, and a smattering of blind herd mentality America and Australia, forget the real need for real self interest, of the whole country.
Arjay, shouting will not change our view.
In a truly Bizarre way, you walk around true CONSPIRACY to find one while related not the true problem.

gabby..quote..""At the end of the day,
profits from Reserve Banks
land up back with Govt treasuries.""

oh goodie
SO when we bailout bankers
tha govt gets its slushfund?

mate your full of it

we used to have a safe in the treasury building[in qld]
its now a casino...[so where does all this fair share go to now?]

but your opinion
in lue of proof..knows no bounds

""There
are good reasons
to create seperation between politicians and the
printing press.""

and now we got even better reasons to sepperate bankers from it...!

but hangon...i thought govt got its fair share
how did the bankers get it all..!

""Imagine the pork barreling, if that were not the case.""

yeah imagine if you could issue all the coin notes and credit
as you chose..and when EVEN THEN ,..you loose
you get the govt to issue a bailout/bond
turn it into fractional reserve...
and print of lend even more money

KNOWING the mug voters...*cant stop you
cause you mr banker..control govt
not the people..nor elected members
just bankers..who have over lent overspent..and now refuse to even pay the rent

tell me..how come banks bailed out
grece ireland..italy spain portugal

and now govts are bailing out banks
banks own the system..NOT GOVT

bankers get the money lent to greece...GET IT?
a further bailoout...ONLY BAILSout bankers..AGAIN

the people get the debt
and the bankers get the bonus

YOU dont trust govt
WE DONT TRUST bankers..!

betwen bankers or govt
who should be running the fed?
not wolves/bankers

why do you chose to be defending bankers?

Indeed Poirot, Europe is the problem, because the market thinks
things through to some extent and does not look just at debt level,
but how it could be paid back. In fact you'll find that Japanese
Govt debt is even higher, but they have a population willing to
lend them all their money at 0-1%. Not so for Greece.

When the Euro was launched, politicians were warned that having your
economic and politicial ducks in different lines, could lead to
disaster. They took no notice but that is now happening.

We now have a standoff and the market wants to see a solution,
or nobody is prepared to lend countries like Greece any money.

The German public are telling Merkel that they refuse to work hard
and pay off Greece's debts, whilst the Greeks sit around sipping
Ouzo in the sunshine. But Greece cannot print Euros or devalue
its currency either. So should they be kicked out of the Eurozone?

Greece is only the first country involved, Portugal, Italy etc, are
not far behind. Add them together, its a huge problem. So will the
Euro collapse? With nobody prepared to lend them money, it means
that interest rates which they have to pay are enormous, blowing
up any budget. Short of selling a few Greek islands to the Arabs,
there is no easy answer. 27 countries are going to have to agree,
which is hard to achieve in itself.

America's problems will be solved when politicians stop fighting
or after the next presidential elections. Their economy is also
fairly dynamic, their debts are in $, which makes it easy.

So the EU problem is far larger, giving rise to the uncertainty.

Yabby,

There's no denying that the Euro zone has a significant debt crisis.

However, according to this article, "...when it comes to terrifying debt-crisis scenarios, the U.S. stands in a universe all its own."

http://www.cfr.org/economics/time-us-debt-problem-means-global-economy/p24708
(Click for full text of document)

Poirot, yes the size of the US debt is huge, but its all about confidence.
People are still prepared to park their money in US treasuries
rather then elsewhere.

Clinton actually left things in pretty good order. When Bush/Cheney
took over, Cheney made it clear that the US $ was everbody elses
problem and not theirs. So a kind of game of chicken started.
Japan and China kept their currencies low in order to ship more
goods to the US. But that also meant lending to the US. If they
stop lending, their reserves might be worthless, because the
US always borrows in US $, which they can print, not in Yuan or Yen.

Over time, inflation will probably eat a good chunk of it away.

So who would you lend to if you had to choose? USA or Greece?

Neither : )

Well there you go Poirot. Much easier for you to be poor,
then you don't have to worry about these things in the
first place :)

British QC Polly Higgins is doing a tour of Australia at the moment discussing the idea of Ecocide as addressed in her new book.

http://www.pollyhiggins.com/Polly_Higgins/Welcome.html

I raise this because Higgins has submitted to the UN the idea of Ecocide as being just as important an idea as Genocide for the long term future of the planet and its peoples.

One of the main thrusts is that Profit is protected as a First Right by law ie. the first responsbility of corporations to shareholders, over and above all other considerations.

This of course has significance not only in the context of this dicussion but to environmental destruction in local communities where corporations and governments might collude against the interests of the people/nation. Most signficantly in countries where there is a high level of corruption and lack of governance.

The Occupy Wall Street campaign and Polly Higgins' tour marries well together in and mirrors some of the same objections around lack of corporate responsibility.

Occupy Wall Street: Populist Financiers Supporting Protesters Is Part of the Problem, Not the Solution

by Finian Cunningham

http://globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=27113

*Personally, I think the biggest liability here is what I like to call the "equal pay for gay whales" theory.*

TRTL, I think you've nailed this one perfectly. For that is
exactly what is happening.

interesting docco on sbs
all watching machine...

anyhow the last half explains a fair bit
that part explains how the asian solution
[ie the 80.s bailout by imf,was only to get the capital back to the capitalists...so they could take the money and run..LEAVING tHe debt with the tax payes without jobs]

its the same thing re greece
even with a haircut...of up to 62%
any extra that gets lent to greece
ONLY PAYS BACK THE BANKS...[who foolishly lent it to pay back other loans][even german/french tax payers paying extra burden..only ensures they in time will get mopre austerity]

its that damm one peercent
that spend our pension super etc
then get bailed out..again and again
ever bigger bailout..ever bigger bonyus..till in the end we bailed out the very system that brought capitalists down to peons

you might think..hey im rich[ie not super rich
but comfortable..i got savings..[i got investments]
i got collectables stocks shares cash...but once no one got any money your effectivly broke too]

how much will the last liter of petrol cost
or the last loaf of bread..once the art market collapses..who will buy your rembrandt?..[except for pennies on the dollar]..or when some peon burns down your house]

look police will do what you tell them to do
till that one day..you go too far

i helped deliver a solution
feel free to blame or shame
but really we got no problem

once you get over the fact your not in control
even if you are in part to blame

Equality?
Australia's journal of conservatism, misused power,influence, the Australian,this morning compares wall street protesters with??
Tea Party!
And the Tea Party come out on top.
Face it, WE ARE PAWNS in some one Else's game.
We left right center will continue hurling our selves at one another.
While the real football scores yet again behind us.
What is so wrong with saying no more Enrons, 50 more names can be added to that list.
And why do tax payer bail out banks in America and Europe But Republicans fight so hard to stop the very rich?
Paying justly their share of ? tax.
More power to the protesters.
But be aware while wall street is being white washed it is paint of a different color protesters must watch for.

TRTL
My response is probably less optimistic than grasping at a glimmer of light. :)

But some reaction is well overdue. Will it have any effect on the decision-makers. Probably not much, but change is a slow process and it has to start somewhere. Let's face it the angst is not really about 'change' per se but a reversal ie. bringing government back to the smallest common denominator, the individuals that make up the other 98%.

Diminishing it to 'equal rights for gay whales' understates the sentiment IMHO.

http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/10/17/the-top-1-executives-doctors-and-bankers/

Sounds like the protestors might have to move their demo sites
to outside American hospitals. According to the NY Times blog,
there are more rich doctors then rich bankers in America

I don't have as many issue with doctors taking home large salaries - after all, they have to invest quite a lot in their education, spend many years becoming doctors and generally work long hours.

Plus, their work generally has a tangible benefit for society. Bankers tend to shuffle money around.

---

On the 'equal pay for gay whales' note, I have been pretty discouraged by the demands posted thus far. I've already had one argument that "ending wars of foreign aggression" and "ending the war on drugs" where bloody stupid requests to make as they're unrealistic and make it easy for the other side to paint you as an uncoordinated bunch of yahoos.

This would be a far better place to start:

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/my-advice-to-the-occupy-wall-street-protesters-20111012

The five key points there would go a long way to resolving problems in the financial sector.

Excellent article TRTL

Deserves excerpt here:

" 1. Break up the monopolies. The so-called "Too Big to Fail" financial companies – now sometimes called by the more accurate term "Systemically Dangerous Institutions" – are a direct threat to national security. They are above the law and above market consequence, making them more dangerous and unaccountable than a thousand mafias combined. There are about 20 such firms in America, and they need to be dismantled; a good start would be to repeal the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act and mandate the separation of insurance companies, investment banks and commercial banks.

2. Pay for your own bailouts. A tax of 0.1 percent on all trades of stocks and bonds and a 0.01 percent tax on all trades of derivatives would generate enough revenue to pay us back for the bailouts, and still have plenty left over to fight the deficits the banks claim to be so worried about. It would also deter the endless chase for instant profits through computerized insider-trading schemes like High Frequency Trading, and force Wall Street to go back to the job it's supposed to be doing, i.e., making sober investments in job-creating businesses and watching them grow.

3. No public money for private lobbying. A company that receives a public bailout should not be allowed to use the taxpayer's own money to lobby against him. You can either suck on the public teat or influence the next presidential race, but you can't do both. Butt out for once and let the people choose the next president and Congress.

4. Tax hedge-fund gamblers. For starters, we need an immediate repeal of the preposterous and indefensible carried-interest tax break, which allows hedge-fund titans like Stevie Cohen and John Paulson to pay taxes of only 15 percent on their billions in gambling income, while ordinary Americans pay twice that for teaching kids and putting out fires. I defy any politician to stand up and defend that loophole during an election year..."

Cont'd

Contd

" 5. Change the way bankers get paid. We need new laws preventing Wall Street executives from getting bonuses upfront for deals that might blow up in all of our faces later. It should be: You make a deal today, you get company stock you can redeem two or three years from now. That forces everyone to be invested in his own company's long-term health – no more Joe Cassanos pocketing multimillion-dollar bonuses for destroying the AIGs of the world.

To quote the immortal political philosopher Matt Damon from Rounders, "The key to No Limit poker is to put a man to a decision for all his chips." The only reason the Lloyd Blankfeins and Jamie Dimons of the world survive is that they're never forced, by the media or anyone else, to put all their cards on the table. If Occupy Wall Street can do that – if it can speak to the millions of people the banks have driven into foreclosure and joblessness – it has a chance to build a massive grassroots movement. All it has to do is light a match in the right place, and the overwhelming public support for real reform – not later, but right now – will be there in an instant. "

Thanks for posting those details Ammonite.

All perfectly reasonable suggestions.

Hehe, I love it. Hold a demonstration and then figure out
what you are demonstrating about :)

Of course the Australian demonstrators will have to figure
out their own reasons to complain, because no taxpayer funds
bailed out any bank. The Govt landed up earning a couple of
billion or so from the whole bank guarantee thinggy.

I'll have to disagree with you about doctors, TRTL. If you
want to see a closed shop union, try the surgeons. Medicine is
a huge business in the US, they spend twice what we do, of GDP.
No wonder the poor can't afford healthcare.

You can choose not to deal with a hedge fund, an investment bank
etc, but you can't choose not to pay a surgeon.

I agree pelican and support Ammonite points totally.
Why would ANYONE not?

gabby note quote..""You can choose
not to deal with a hedge fund, an investment bank
etc,""

we dont chose
we get to pay COMPULSORY super 'contribution'
for them to gamble..with hedgefunds/investment babnkers AS THEY CHOSE

we got no choice
our COMPULSORY super is stolen sdirect from our wages

""but you can't choose not to pay a surgeon.""

sure you can mate
we got COMPULSORY MEDICAL LEVIES
so we can wait two to thre years to get a new hip joint
cause the old one failed...
]
[you just have to get in line
get onto a list..and wait..
with all the other cripple wages slaves

paying income tax on wages...lol

wage aint income its wage
if we had wage tax then they could steal 'income tax'
but firast they need to redefine wage to mean income

[INCOME IS MONEY BEGOTTEN BY not value adding
ie a consumable markup or fine or rent is income
they are to be taxed..NOT WAGES

we cant be forced into a unlateral con-tract
like third party compulsory insurance

ahhhh heck
why bother trying to teach the clever guy like you
[your investments are income][not my wage]

anyhow ammonium nitrate good quotes

While the thread has stalled those like myself who find some good in these actions will have interesting times ahead.
The movement will grow.
BUT will face problems violence some paid for by those being protested about.
Will continue and may kill it.
Lies same sponsor, but helped along by blind silliness that its the left only involved.
Mad acts, some by mad protesters most by just mad.
Such a thing becomes in festered with every lunatic group trying to own it.
But I have hope, and trust in the young, they lead every change and we never needed change more.

Just want to make my view about sabotaging the movement clear.
Show men trained us.
As a kid in a little place called Bargo,it was little then.
The towns best horse rider,for his age,about 12.
Went in to the Circus ring, excepting a challenge.
Ride around the ring on a killer horse.
Just in case,a rope went around his waste.
And he was promised if he rode it he would get the then huge sum of one pound.
He came off, was dangled in mid air on that rope.
We could not believe it!
A clown grabbed his legs and his pants came down.
A dreadful shame we thought.
3 weeks after he finally told us, he got the cash ,for failing.
Some seeming from within the movement will too.

yes you make a good point belly
arnt they clever..[in not having a leader..!]

we learnt this long ago
the system likes 'leaders'
then they know who to corrupt
or simply attack..or lock up...[i think its the cut off the head theory]

but mate...we dont want leaders
we dont need others speaking''for us'
this is that movement..that moves without moving

thus wont be moved
till the bad things get removed

we dont need fancy speaches
from those who want us to lead the way into battle
so the faux leaders can hide behind us..[their shield]

that affair with the greenie
and the honest man..[ohhm bud's man]
[id put up a link]..but heck..we all should feel shame

here was a man wanted to speak[for others]
and none spoke up for him

is another sign of the times...
where even saying nothing
exposes those with true sinner..who stand mute

we all share in the guilt blame shame
so we stand in silence...the spin is out..
because that won by spin [or sin]..isnt a win

if one looses
we all loose