peter...as i understand capitalism
it relies on the market..to sort out its own issue
so why socialistic style bailouts of bankers?

the banks arnt govt..havnt
*been 'govt'..for near a century

all that war cost sent govt broke
just like it bankrupted many previous dynasties

its no use saying the federal reserve is govt
cause govt bonds are capitalised via the fed..and the fed is controlled by 12 bankers..

[sure a pitance/tokan.. is given back to govt]
but govt dont got its own bank..and cash given by the fed simply goes back to the govt banker..the fed..[its a clever closed lop system]

the fed takes cash..offers a credit line
thus a bank getting 5% deposit..allows the fed to CREATE credit for the rest..[all money is loaned into egsistance..but the ursury./intrst...that repays the ursury..must come via others defaulting

there is the crux of the proble,
if govt owned the system..it could create new money via its gifts/subsidies/ppensions or vaklue adding of assets/infastructure

but by virtue of the fed and the other instruments
such as the mint and the note printing branches...and the house of settlements...who hold the physical gold/silver etc or physical share

[funny enough mortgauged to bankers
and the ursury debt..on them too]

these house's..allow the same perversions such as
selling gold they dont own[ie trading 'promises..FOR gold..in a day trade..3 TIMES..the quantity of real gold]..and short selling of shares your only renting[lol]..try that with your avis renta acar

or the options market
so much is possable if you know
people only want the price increase on the day

not the actuall share certificate or asset
just like way back when we wanted the promise of gold
ie the security..in paper...[and we know how that ended

they issued ten times more paper promise
that they had in real gold

remember
the past

the same scams that worked last time
will work again..in a few years

so we dergulated
after we forgot

now
the same ol game
its simply insane

Peter Hume,

I realise that it's the "systemic" organisation of human society which interests you in the main.

On another thread, you opined on the situation of children being forced into state education - yet you don't seem to to have the same feelings regarding children that were drafted into cruel and inhumane servitude under the libertarian capitalism of the factory system....both are operational modes resting on capitalist principle.

It's the principle which is at fault. The system under which it is instituted cannot s help but dehumanise its participants because the initial premise devalues human nature and warps its potential.

in the end the saver allways looses his savings
or in this case their compulsory super contributions

and there is exposed
the crux of the problem facing us globally
increasing the price of the product..only increaases the price of egsisting product..it dont make new product

we are making wealthy
people only clever at pricing..*not producing

bankers collecting money..collecting ursury[lol]
not on real money..but fictional credit entry leveraged off the real

eg fractional reserve lending
the fraction..creates the rest[on paper]
yet the ursury needed to collect..needs be paid back with real cash or real credit

its such a clever sca,
the loan application
is the security..the only security for greece debt
yet the people get austerity measure...become capitalist peons

when no real money was there
hence the worlds 4 quadrillion of securities/bonds
and the real assets [in good times..worth only half a quadrillion]

do nothings...actually do nothing productive
but lend on bonds..THEY KNOW cant be realised

get their capital
by stealing future value from others

but so much more is gifted in bonus..dividend..
or huge wages and other gratitudes..like meetings and free lunches

heck
this huge issue has got the best govt treasurors talking
but then they issue a govt bond...and the bankers leverage the bond
then you get credit

if the poop hits the fan
govt bails out lol the bank..by lending to the bank
borrowing it from the very bank its bailing out

mate its criminal
with those rules
the commies in china can bail us all out
and guess what the socialista wins

givt credit back to govt
return the instruments of power back to govt

but first let the capitalista system go bust
no bailout...those assets revert to the people..[ie govt]

Poirot

Your argument depends on confusing private versus governmental control of the means of production, and therefore your critique of capitalism totally fails.

That argument about quadruply-compulsory state education being “capitalist”. might run in your Marxist kindergarten but here you just look like a desperado, or an ignoramus.

Perhaps if you kill another 100 million people, socialism will work eventually? Pathetic.

OUG
You’re confusing “capitalism” with government control of the means of production – socialism.

“we are making wealthy
people only clever at pricing..*not producing”

Not “we”. THE GOVERNMENTS are doing it. And they are doing it by exercising a power to control the market for money, on the basis that governments represent the greater good and are necessary to do social justice, and capitalism is evil. Because confused people, like you, David, Squeers and Poirot believe that capitalism is to blame for what, on examination, turns out to be SOCIALISM.

“givt credit back to govt
return the instruments of power back to govt”

Your argument ignores the fact that *government* has *already got monopoly control* of the supply of money and credit. That’s what’s causing all the financial chaos you’re complaining about – the permanent inflation, the FRB, the debt bubbles, the derivative bubbles, the corrupt favouritism, the handouts to big business, the artificial booms, the depressions.

Under capitalism - *private* ownership of the means of production – multiplying money substitutes out of proportion to money on deposit would be illegal.

This article explains how it is mere confusion to allege that the Fed represents the private ownership of the means of production - please have a look http://lewrockwell.com/rozeff/rozeff364.html

All
You have all only proved my point. All the criticisms of capitalism so far COMPRISE failing to distinguish the private from the public ownership of the means of production. You’re giving arguments against socialism, not capitalism.

Now come on. Anyone else got a criticism of capitalism that does NOT involve that error?

peter/quote..""Not “we”...THE GOVERNMENTS are doing it.""

no mate..you .[the consumer]..buy that flat screen plasma
you pay your super..you pay..'advisers'..you pay bankfees

""And they""
they govt?

""are doing it by exercising a power
to control the market for money,""

lol mate..you forget..most of the present problems
began with DE-regulation..ie not so much govt..as lack of governace

""the basis that governments represent
the greater good""was subverted long ago

""[govt]..are necessary to do social justice,""

mate legal aid..is only to get guilty please
and then raise revenue...[and a guilty plea cant be applealed
thus unjust laws..remain..yet capitalists get away with rape or murder

people like you..'believe that capitalism is to blame
for what,on examination,..turns out to be SOCIALISM.""

no mate govts are acting socialist
what other name do you give to rich mates
bailing out rich mates..then the poor paying of their debts..[lol]

its commie thinking mate
the party class..and the serfs
too dumb to think for themselves..that get shafted EVERYTIME

capitaism..NEEDS capital
to get benefits..to the special capitlist
by abusing the fool..paying twice the capitalist tax rate

""Your argument ignores the fact
that *government* has *already got monopoly control*
of the supply of money and credit.""

mate your a clever guy
if govt owns money..how come it needs sell govt bonds
to the fed..id the fed is govt..WHY PAY ITSELF URSURY/intrest

cause the fed is controled by 12 bankers

heck you must know tha

you must know that

""That’s what’s causing all the financial chaos""

yes greece..lending ero's..from bankers
instead of simply printing them...lol

""Under capitalism -*private*/ownership
of the means of production"""

sure production
not money supply
not infinite credit supply

THAT SHOULD BE UNDER GOVT accountabilty
overseen by govt..[just like govts should be getting the super,..
not agents..on commision to gamble away...on the ponzi sceme..run by gambling capitalists]

""multiplying money substitutes
out of proportion to money on deposit would be illegal.""

no mate..thats a contract
under civil law..[a security is a contract]

i give you this
you give me that

its only enforcable..by and on
those who signed..[thats why house repo's in usa have been stopped]
when the investers bought the contract...the contract went void

(cause the debt has been paid*]

those holding the 'security'
arnt the contractually secured party

plus..forgery is criminal law..[as is uninformed contract]
anything that makes a 'victim'..is criminal

will look at ya link tomorrow
its late/mate