Job losses everywhere you turn, and that's just the beginning.

You labor lovers pushed and pushed for a better deal for the battler, yet, despite the many warnings you just kept pushing.

Just spare a thought for those whos lives you have helped to ruin when they find themselves unemployable thanks to the IR laws businesses are now faced with.

$25 per hour for sweeping floors means nothing if there are no floors to sweep.

Well done, you have achieved your goal, you have managed to cost hundreds, if not thousands of jobs all because you found the urge to interfere with others arrangements.

Her me loud and clear.

You will see unskilled workers working for $15 per hour just to put a meal on the table.

I have said many times, It is the governments role to support low income earners, not businesses.

But you just won't be told.

Now I have said it governments role to support low income earners.

Now that could be possible hadn't they pissed everything away and some.

i once met a guy[a real estate bankruptcy accountant]
he was paid $2000 an hour just to think

nice guy
but all he could do was think in numbers

just like bankers are paid huge bonus to do

i know a cleaner..who signed a howard work contract
by the time he gets paid...he is looking for the next job to pay the bills for the last job[the one he waited 2 weeks to get paid for]

its sad you so begrudge those getting puitance
to clean the ccccrap from your dunny

how about then nurses..that going to clean your butt
when your old and gray[i bet you begrudge them getting a living wage or paid leave or holiday pay too]

i can live without you lot

but dont begrudge the cleaners
forced to clean up after you lot

bah
hope you catch some bugs from ya dirty phone
the cleaner spat into..or your 9 course meal on tic

One way forward is to make the RBA create the new money to equal GDP + inflation instead if borrowing from the US Federal Reserve who just create it from nothing anyway.What's wrong with the RBA computers? Are they inferior to the US ones or the Chinese ones?

$86 billion pa is added to our money system as debt by private banks to equal inflation + growth.We have let the private banking system own our productivity.Our RBA could reduce our taxes enormously by doing it's proper role of money creation.Our economy would boom if our taxes were to be reduced.

The other issue is Govt waste.That must end.Labor are clueless corrupt and incompetent.

OUG, I here what you say loud and clear, but you don't here me.

First to nurses. Many work weekends, nights ( sift starts at 4 pm) and public holidays. They make a fortune! Much better pay than police who often risk their lives on a Daliy basis.

Now to cleaners.
Nobody without skills can expect to work 38 hours per week and enjoy a comfortable life style. It is simply crippling the country by expecting this to happen.

At no point do I say they don't deserve to liv, hat I do say is that to simply force businesses to pay high wages is where the problem lies.

Perhaps if w had a decent government, that, instead of wasting billions on indigenous, boat people and failed projets, then they could afford to support these unskilled worker and remove the burden from business.

All these IR laws are doing is costing jobs, by either non employment, owners doing more hours, o by closure or taking their job elsewhere.

You see, you lot don't see that the jobs are still ther, they ar just not here in AUs.

Obviously you have to learn the hard way, but try explaining this to someone who has lost their job due to unaffordable wages.

Of cause, some businesses are just preparing themselves for te carbon tax, because no doubt there will b measures put in place to mak it harder for these businesses to shed staff once this tax is in.

Unless you run a business you have little to no ideas how I all works.

rehctub,

I get where you're coming from. The hide of all those plebian cleaners demanding a living wage is outrageous. They should scuttle back to their hovels and be happy that their superiors even deign to provide them with a soapy rag and a bucket (on the house).

You sound like you've stepped straight from the pages of a tale of Victorian England. Thank goodness we don't have chimney-sweeps these days. You'd have a field day with them.

30 years ago I earned $60/hour as a communications guru [ actually invented a new telephone then, which telecom took, produced and made a fortune selling - no, I got nothing because I worked for them when I invented it "the one bar two phone".] I also invented several other things which you use today in some form or t'other..yes/no?, I still have ALL the prelim paper work from company, washington DC, PIES, and patent search attorny circa 1994. Today I do CLEANING! at $20/hour 6 hours a week because nobody want's to employ a 'thinker'and combined 'doer' who is over 60YO. But this 'lazy - grubby - old fart' has just this year invented, built and trialed a proto type auto pond filler for landscapers. Next year I shrink it to cigarette packet size and 'attempt' to market it. China looks a good bet because the manufacturing elite in this fair land are brain dead.

Pepper, it sounds as though you got quite a lot if you earned $60 an hour 30 years ago. That was at least 5 times what I was getting then. I have always wanted to remain self sufficient and have never taken anything from the government and now in my mid 70s I am a self funded retiree and recently been earning about $5 an hour delivering pamphlets. In other words doing work that people half my age would not consider. We live in a competitive world and people should not expect handouts from the government. As Margaret Thatcher once said "the trouble with socialism is that eventually we run out of other people's money" People just have unrealistic expectations these days, aided and abetted by television advertising of course and cheap money on credit.

The problem is not that low income workers are demanding a 'living' wage but that wages in the mid-high end are too high by comparison. This pushes prices up and makes it more difficult for low income earners and I am not talking about luxuries but basic needs. Hence then the pressure on minimum wage.

I am a bit tired of the low income earners being blamed for societal greed. Talk about kicking the dog when your chips are down.

I don't know any floor sweepers earning $25 per hour. Lots of resentment here for all the wrong reasons.

A fare pay for a fare day, no matter what you do. What makes you think that a person is unskilled, even if they are toilet cleaners or floor sweepers.
Rechid rectub is a slave trader, because a person sweeps a floor they somehow deserve a lesser wage.
If you want someone to sweep your floor pay the correct rate or do it yourself.

HaHaHa .. Come now *Recty* I reckon the amount of time you spend in here is costing someone's wallet too much for the price of one of your "leg of lambo roasts."

..

Seriously, not in all cases, but in a lot i.m.o. retailers are a curse, a pox, a blight, a stone around the neck of this country.

Much as wig parasites and the australian $moneygrubbers$ association are

(though I will "Bow my ....'ing Head to the admirable performance of the president in advocating the rights of children recently.")

I should be able to put an order straight to the abboitoir and cut you guys out of the chain entirely.

The current business model is being forced to change because there are faster, better, cheaper ways to do things and this is good.

..

However, I like the idea that everyone should have a sustainable financial security solution, including work (or therapeutic structured activity at the least) medical, housing, legal, educational.

..

I would not unnecessarily destroy the livelihoods of people at the goldern cow altar of the right for some to make up their prices pretty much as they please and as they go along. Particularly as it pertains to the necessities of life, which I would regulate by mathematical equation.

..

Of course, to travel, one can marvel to some extent at all of the different varieties of economic system expression that are currently at work in the world.

Never been one to go into bat for the butcher, but I think he meant by $25 per hour to sweep floors is what he's paying someone who has nothing else to do BUT sweep the floor because of lack of customers.

I work with freight, butcher. Everyone is struggling. Imagine every theory you want to aim the blame at but the simple way of looking at it is that people are holding onto their money for fear of the market at the moment. The last busy time for us was just after the Qld floods. Since then its been very quiet. Scarily so.

Well a5, this is the looming problem, many business owners today are doing jus that, they are sacking staff and doin it themselves.

But how does that help create or save jobs?

You know, when I was starting work, some 30 odd years ago, there were two ways to earn a decent income.

Way one was to be highly skilled and get paid a high wage, way two was to work 60+ hours per week. The end result was the same income either way.

Trouble is, as times get tougher governments answer is to simply increase wages, however, unless the business makes additional profits, how on earth can they be expected to pay more wages.

Just take. Look at what's happening as we speak. Many companies today ar reporting much less in profits than last year.

These IR laws you all pushed so hard for ar coming back to bite you.

I say again, if you expect to earn up to a grand a week for sweeping floors, you are kidding yourself, especially if you think this is sustainable.

Poirot
So it's better for them to be unemployed on a lower income, than gainfully employed on a higher income? What kind of perverted logic is that?

In todays local paper Hungry Jacks have been found to have under payed kids as young as 14 by $105'ooo between 2005 & 2009.

" say again, if you expect to earn up to a grand a week for sweeping floors, you are kidding yourself, especially if you think this is sustainable."

Nobody is paying $1000 per week for floor sweepers.

This is emotive and misleading.

If as StG suggests, you are talking about your butchers sweeping floors at that rate because of a fall in custom, this is nothing to do with IR laws relating to butcher's wages.

579

"Hungry Jacks" by name and nature...

Floor sweepers is simply a term I used for cleaners in general.

Now some do earn a grand a week, that's 38 hr at $25 per hour, there a bouts.

And that's if they dont work weekends or evenings.

Hungry jacks.
You are kidding no doubt.

There would be lots more to this story. In fact, thanks to labor's IR laws, many kids have lo their jobs simply because it is illegal to employ even a student for less than four hours.

Now think of this.

They Finnish school and arrive for work at say 3.30, but t store closes at 5.30. End resul, no job.

It's a no brainer as all ghat is needed is a specia arrangement fo sudents. Problem solved.

But no, madam PM just had to rearrange a perfectly working arrangement.

Typical labor thinking.

In which state is there a minimum 4-hour shift?

When I was a student, the minimum was 3 hours. On the measly base rate, that meant I could work 3:30-6:30 for a wonderful $21.33. At least back then - I'm talking the late '90s - I could get something for that.

Recently, it has been decided that schoolkids can be rostered on for 2 hour shifts. Not sure if this is QLD or nationwide - I had assumed the latter.

According to the general retail award (http://www.sda.org.au/news_show.php?id=67&p=General%20Retail%20Industry%20Award%20%202010%20-%20Summary%20for%20Casual%20Employees), the award rate for a shop assistant is 20.59 per hour. U/16s are entitled to 45% of that (9.26 an hour). For a two-hour shift, that's $18.52. Not a lot, really. Even so, at least they have a job. After a handful of shifts, they could even afford to buy their uniforms.

As for cleaners, I take your point about unskilled labour. At $52,000 a year (before tax), they would be taking home more than many uni graduates and many people who have completed an apprenticeship. Once the taxman has taken his cut, it's not a lot to live on, though; and there's little hope of improved pay (unlike those graduates and skilled tradies) except when the award rate goes up.

I guess it's an incentive to upskill. But when everyone's upskilled, who's going to sweep the floors?

Oto, I hope you are right about the 2 hr shift fo students however, this was not the case a few months ago, in qld anyway.

When I was a kid starting out there were two ways. Mae a good income 1. Skills, 2 lots of hours.

This is what has changed and this is what is driving businesses out.

Add to this the preside from the high. Dolla and omline shopping and the result will be the demise of many small businesses,-and that's something you should all be worried about.

I am right as I invested wisely in the good times which has set myself my wife and my kids up but I fear for those with little or nothing a times ahead will be extremely tough, believe me.

I still say that an unskilled wage (38) hr should not provide a decent living.

"I still say that an unskilled wage (38) hr should not provide a decent living."

What do you mean by a decent living? Regardless of aspirational politics some jobs still need to be done and cleaning is one job even those in power cannot outsource overseas (although they do try using migrant labour or those on temporary working visas).

Why should unskilled people not earn a living wage. Some unskilled jobs involve hard physical work even if there is little skill involved. Why is this not recognised or valued as much as skilling or education.

If a wage cannot keep up with the cost of living, mortgages, rents, food, petrol etc do you expect low income earners should live on the streets and beg for their supper until something better comes along.

No pelican,
Not at all.

What i am saying is either they have to work more hours, for similar money, or, the government has to help with th cost of living.

Either way, you can't simply increase costs for business simply because costs of living increase.

It will/ has cost jobs and this is a trend that will continue.

Don't agree! That's fine, just watch this space.

Oh okay, you still are a knob.

I was a cleaner working 3 jobs just to avoid the dole till I got a break in an area I was chasing. I never came CLOSE to $25 an hour. You're dreaming, again. The only way you make that sort of money in the industry is by owning the business. And sweeping floors? More like cleaning up after your disgusting a*se.

Bet you wouldn't last a week in some of the cleaning jobs I had.

STG, you are so out of touch.

Most people who resort to personal insults are like that.

I can only assume you are one of these.

Let me quote a few rates.

Bris entertainment centre. Norm rate, $21.00 per hour, sat more, Sunday and after midnight $40 per hour.

Stop and go operator, not cleaning, but still unskilled, 422 per hour.

And you lot wonder whynther is a skill shortage!

Produce nothing and provide a bit of menial entertainment value (on and off the paddock) and your set.

"Woods, whose image was tarnished by a sex scandal, was the top earner for the eighth consecutive year but his winnings and endorsements dropped 31 per cent in the 2011 survey to $US62.3 million ($58.9 million)." Seems he had a bad year all-round!

Not that I have anything against Mr Woods or his ability to whack a little white ball around a paddock. I neither like him nor loath him, don't know him. What's he like on the end of a mop?

There's your solution, rehctub.

Attach some bells to the end of your sweeper's broom and teach him a few songs. Free entertainment in the butcher's shop....bound to draw the customers : )

The cleaners i know are contractors. Running a business just like you. But your case is different, isn't it. You want slave labor, exploitation, under pay someone, just like Hungry Jacks.

Poirot, Glad you raised the subject of butchers. Here's a way to make an extra quid. I'm in the local butchers for a keg of mince. Goes like this He's got mince at $8.99/Kg, not bad mince, not full of that red dye stuff (makes it look good) or the 'phnobonwono' stuff (makes week old fresh today). The Mug: "keg of mince please." Butcher Boy puts mince in bag, puts mince on scales: " That's $10.20" out goes the hand. Mug says "Is that a kilogram?" BB "A bit over!" (like 15% over) Mug says " Could you make it a Kg." BB removes a bit from the bag, and throws it in the tub. "$9.60!" (BB is not a happy camper.) Mug plays hard ball " it's a kg for 9 bucks!) BB removes more mince from bag. In the old days when you started in a butchers shop one of the first things the boss would say was "don't forget to get your wages through the scales!" maybe some still do that.

I got 17.50 as a cleaner less than a year ago. THAT is the standard, Cherry picking one job doesn't qualify your weird reality. Apparently QPAC pay very well too, but the VAST majority pay award.

I can't believe you people.

Our economy is crumbling around us, jobs are being shed yet you remain in denial.

As I say, it doesn't matter how much an hour one gets when there are no hours to be had.

Now, had the government taken responsibility for supporting the low paid, rather than just placin the burden on business, we would be in a much better place.

But then again, when you waste billions on collective failures, time and time agai, while also supporting every seining dick besides your own people, what else do you expect.

I do draw a little comfort in knowing that you were wormed, many times over.

Thanks for reminding me; my cat needs worming.

Rechtub on arriving at this site you put words together much better than you do now.
I have never agreed with you.
But once we could have had that beer and sausage sandwich we often spoke about.
You baffle me, you either hate workers/low income earners/anyone on social security, or have difficulty expressing your self.
Are you happy to let that post speak about you?
Now come, do not be offended it is true, you have got to the stage many ignore your threads/posts,all your own work.

You see calamity that is only taking place in your mind.
Did you scream governments fault when BHP Newcastle closed nearly 20 years ago.
8.000 jobs?
Job losses so far can not be laid at the feet of a tax no one has yet paid.
And unemployment of 5% is one of the best figures in the world.
Rechtub,you throw insults at me,even invited me to leave this site.
Mate as a trade unionist I Lean to read a person, how to tell some times what is wrong.
Some hide the fact they can not read or write, I try to help such.
Are your shops doing it a bit hard? think charging a bit bless rather than more may turn it around?
Give your self time to breath, leave some one who has ambition in charge for a month then go on holidays.
But bloke, mind if I say, I need a break from? you!

BHP is shedding jobs too, I don't think they are exactly under stress.
Because jobs are being shed, your remedy is to pay peanuts. The average wage for BHp in WA is $2,000 / wk. I bet there is some floor sweepers in that lot as well.

Both Labor and Conservatives, pre Abbott and post him, put us in the free trading market.
Our country stands today in its current position because of both and actions best for us.
We currently and for the foreseeable future prosper by it.
No action, ever, does not bring reaction.
Our manufacturing industry is challenged, it was under John Howard.
Our floating dollar is a firm support plank in our trading position.
It if not floating puts us back 30 years and threatens our economy.
It is harming our manufacturing industry.
But not it alone, free trade is that, free, not just to sell but to be sold other country's products.
Why would Australians, right now at a time our dollar is buying far more, buy our products not cheap imports?
Set rules to take us back to tariffs, or protectionism, both made for poor productivity and stagnant work places,and we die.
True, startling but true,Abbott went very near, letting his servant party the Nationals, who gain most from free trade, put us in breach of that by barring NZ apples.
Some require, including a man I regard as a hero,we force builders to pay more for steel, to prop up jobs.
Remember, 65% of anti politicians rants come from , not in my backyard or fix my concern first ranters.
The truth is most politicians are far more informed than those throwing stones at them.

Belly, you say that most politicians are better advise than we are.

Now if that is the case, how on earth has there been so many failed projects and so many wasted billion during the short, less than 4 year life of this government.

As for 5% unemployment, you are not serious, are you.

In order to get the real picture you must remove the waste generated by government creating jobs.

Then you should remove the jobs created in fixing stuff ups.

Then you should remove the jobs created by the boat people saga.

Now, once you hve done this exercise, then try telling me that we have low unemployment.

Now as for the repeated posts accusing me cof being. Low income hater, here this.

I don't hate low income earners, in fact, many of them provide the custom for my shop.

I just don't think that business should be seen as a cash cow every time things get a bi tough. It's not our role.

We live in sad times as at a Tim where we should be literally printing money, we are borrowing billions just to stay afloat.

Now iif tha a strong economy, boy the others are in trouble.

And belly, you must have read my mind, as we speak I am cutting timber, my passion. My apprentice, who is now a butcher runs my business.

Finally belly, I don't hate you mate, so lease accept my apology if I hav offended you or given you that impression.

Go the broncos!

Notice the latest opinion on labor's IR laws.

They were warned that thei one size fits all policy would fail many, but they don't listen to the people who know the employers do they.

Interesting stuff, hey!

yes intersesting stuff up's
howard took things too far
nor labratters took it too far back

go figure eh

ell me man club...have you ever heard
of 'the invisable hand'

thats the code word for things getting done
because each gets a bit..cause its the doing of..'their' bit
that keeps them alive..

so we have a farmer..that grows a cow
who then gets the cow to market..via a driver driving his truck]
that then gets auctioned off till eventually it gets killed[by a paid killer[or slaughterman]..if you prefer..

a specialist slices the beast..and takes out its guts
[that gets made by other specialists into other stuff you call offal
others call gourmet susauge..or tripe

then we got the horn cutting dude
who sends the horns to make ya jelly

and the head cuting dude
who chops off the head..cuts out the tongue
to make your canned spam..[or whatever]

next we got the dude who rip saws the beast in half
puts it into the friderator...pushed along the rails into a truck
then you get the beast

[while cleaners are washing down the kill floor.sharpening the knives..sterilising the hooks..and so much other unseen stuff..only you would know about when its done WRONG..[and lawyers get their pay day by suing YOU*

WELL ANYHOW..YOU GOT THIS BEAST..now
in your clean shop..you take your sharp tongue..and lash your servants to do their bit[making nice expensive cuts,..and cheap sausages with plenty of sulfer in em..to keep the shelf life..

you place an avert[or being a cheapscate..drop a few leaflets
[no doudt forcing the kids to work for slave rates]

or forcing your own kids to do it
to teach them the value of YOUR money

anyhow finally i come into your shop
give you nice clean cash..that you take to your banker
and you accept their bankfees without a wimper

you go to the accountant
paying them without a second thought
[or use that cheapscate..who does it for half price
but costing you double in cash]..

anyhow now your in my shoes
you go to buy stuff..[without a wimper]
pay gst..without blinking...you pay others..without a second thought

yet them bloody cleaners mate
i hope they send you broke

cause you dont appriciate just what not having me sue you
for poisening me is really worth

for want of a clean workplace
you end up going broke

and we will say
we told you so

cheers big ears

*OUG* the likes of *Rectum* do not wish to work. He is just whinging because he can't bleed enough out of us to support his appetite for material wealth.

This situation has been brought about by the privatisation of the necessities of life. Worse still, the privatisation of the necessities of life for the needs of the Australian community by international companies.

What a sell out!

..

This is what you get when you vote for either the child abusers in the liberal/national party or the labour party.

..

which is why I suggest vote *Green*

You can rest assured that *Bob Brown* would not predicate national security on the need to abuse children.

..

A leg of lamb costs *Rectum* less than $5 but I'd wager he'd be selling one for upwards of $25.

..

That is the real problem, not paying everyone a living wage.

dream on you have. very appropriate user name, dont you.

you say. buy. leg of lamb for $5 and sell fr $25. i wish.

wages used t be around 8% of turnover, nowdays thats more like 20 to 25%.

now the sad part about that is that the increase has not all gone to the wage earner. while they have had an increase far in excess of most owners, a large portion of h overall increaae, the one that matters the most to business has been taken up by complience costs.

the nd result, and you can quot me on ths, s tha many busnesses wll close in the foreseeable future.

what do you propose we do about wages when ther are far less employers?

we already suffer from under employment. simply increasing basic wage rates does not matter if hours are cut as a result.

We are seeing th results ofmpoor IR laws right now. Problrm is, once the damage is done it is to late.

Enjoy your self induced poverty I say. You pushed for it, you got it, now you have to live with it, and its about to crumble.

Just remember, its what you lot wanted.

We are seeing the results of a duopoly between the big grocery purveyors undercutting small business...but that seems to be the way our society has fashioned itself.

We've centralised our purchasing options - given ourselves greater choice of product, but less choice in whom we buy it from. That is no reason to dump on employees and deprive them of a fair wage for their time.

Here ya go, rehctub,

Seems we're not going down to gurgler quite as fast as you anticipate - yet...

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-09-07/household-spending-report-released/2875106