Brian Burdekin claimed yesterday on AM that youth homelessness leads to an increase in mental breakdown and substance abuse http://www.abc.net.au/am/content/2007/s1866069.htm. This assertion was not questioned by the interviewer, and contradicts what I would have thought was the case. Does anyone have any evidence one way or the other?

Burdekin was launching some sort of "independent inquiry" into homelessness, but he already seemed to have some views as to what the inquiry should find. Apparently it's the Federal Government's responsibility to solve the "problem" because the states won't or can't.

Burdekin says that there are 20,000 children living on the streets. This has got to be a gross exaggeration, and gives some pointers as to where this is heading. Last time I checked there was a total of just more than 20,000 Australians _of all ages_ in the ABS category "Improvised dwellings, sleepers out". Of these half were indigenous, mostly in the Northern Territory. There was in fact a total of 12,531 Australians under the age of 25 in this category, and 7, 143 of these were under the age of 18. So, an overstatement by a factor of 200%.

Sounds like another solution in search of a problem, and using large round numbers to try to find it!

It is very difficult for collectors in the ABS to find the homesless. They can list a bus shelter or a footpath as an occupied site, but the discretian is up to the collector. An occupied site by a homeless person is difficult to list during the day when the homeless just wonder the street. Some sleep on their friends couches, and move around to share the burden. Often they don't fill in the Census forms as they don't know where they live, and don't understand that Census night is "where you occupy a space at that nite", not just "where you live". They may camp at one place, or choose various places to sleep.

We have many of them in Kings Cross and Woolloomooloo. The young ones are there for different reasons. I've heard of some even sleeping in the booths at the sex parlours as they can't think of anywhere else to go.

Some of the older ones are there by choice. They all have a different story. They are amazingly territorial, and you would be amazed at their compassion and protection towards each other.

Admitedly there are some abusive homeless drunks that hang around the old Burger King site who bristle people's patience.

Are they insane before they are homeless? The young ones, I would say the majority: no. Are the figures an exaggeration? It is really difficult to say what the figures are. We do know that even the ABS finds difficulty in pin pointing exactly where the dwellers are, at what time, and what their story is.

The Salvation Army and the City City Mission would have a better idea then the Government, particularly the Matthew Talbot and Wesley Mission, as they have their own statistics.

Don't know about mental breakdown, but
I came across a recent study a short time ago- that I cannot remember or quote-
that concluded that drug abuse and its related problems followed homelessness, rather than the common view of the opposite.

The link between substance abuse and mental illness has been long established. Everyone knows of schizophrenic kids who seemed OK until their association with the drug culture. I imagine the strains placed on a family by an amphetamine or marijuana using bi-polar or mentally ill member would be something few families could bear and the friction generated would force the member out. This member is usually unemployable adding further strain.

Sille,
I am not sure if you actually correctly read what I said,
or if you did, and have followed on from what I said.
Basically I said, (in the study) Homelessness was clearly a precursor/cause for drug abuse-
rather than the more common view that drug abuse results in users becoming homeless.
you could have followed on from this that,
naturally, drug abuse arising out of homelessness would be likely to cause mental illness,
thus,
relating directly to the question of this discussion:
in a number of cases, homelessness would lead to mental breakdown (via drug abuse)...

Did you mean this?

I think as in most things it is both. Obviously some people would be mentally ill before they become homeless-
however, IMHO I believe the vice-versa position would be more common. Drugs, Isolation/ostracisation, violence, harsh conditions (sleep deprivation), etc, etc would all contribute to mental breakdown/illness, or at the very least uncover/exacerbate any underlying conditions.

It is a good question how you frame it and both impact on each other.
Neither take place in isolation from society. Or another way of seeing it, in times of boom and plenty both are sharply reduced. The figures for crime are dramatically reduced in times of full employment and relative job security. A large degree of homelessness or mental breakdown today is located within the breakdown of society. The boom went some 30 odd years ago and there has never been a full recovery. For many, included in casual work or full time work is the ever present threat of the sack bringing never ending uncertainty, living precariously, the state of being unsure and unstable. Or sick for a couple of weeks without income is a disaster for most, the landlord throws you out or bank repossession. Life on the edge is strained and the edge breaks. With homelessness and no work comes a stigma and you feel worthless to society. You become removed from working life then homelessness then social life, an outcast. Years of loyal service to a firm then retrenchments can bring with it a devastating effect mentally or even deadly impact. Then you have Bush stoking up war calling for "one war following another" or Howard indicating "indeffinite war in the Pacific." Life itself starts to resemble a madhouse; where the politicians place far higher priorities in bombing people than hospitals or mental homes. Another example, a far higher priority is the big fees obtainable in the childcare centers rather than any universal right to a proper education. Presently the governments are putting the boot into the disabled, 200,000 are going to lose pension entitlements, to be driven into the workforce and offered substandard work, and sub standard wages. Reports say 14,000 will eventually be thrown onto the streets. There are 600 million child laborers worldwide which are seen as a source of labor for exploitation.
The larger problem is economic relations dominate over human relations or considerations.

Surely, one needs to ask the question, 'why are they homeless, in the first place?' Sleeping rough with nowhere to call home is not something many people would choose to do, so there would have to be a pre-existing problem of some kind.

My son is homeless and mentally ill and I know which came first. I agree that the situation is probably somewhat symbiotic but there first has to be a reason to be homeless.

Rob, I guess not everyone has a strong family network to support them should they falter (economically). My husband and I have been periously close to losing our house in the last 6 months, due to lack of income caused by the drought. We are lucky enough to both have families that would take us in for a short period of time if it were needed. I suggest that not everyone is that lucky. Certainly it has removed a lot of stress from our lives, knowing that while not ideal, we have a safety net. If we had lost the house, we wouldnt be able to afford to rent, as our mortgage repayments have been less than the local rents. So, not everyone who ends up on the streets is mentally ill to start with. Despite that, I find it difficult to accept without any evidence that the MAJORITY succumb to mental illnes after becoming homeless. Certainly the situation is not conducive to recovering from mental illness, which no doubt prolonges any problems.

I probably should have specified 'youth homelessness' which I believe was the focus of the article. Adult homelessness may be quite different though I still think it shows a pre-existing problem within the culture.

I have aboriginal friends who talk about the social structure before the English conquered - no-one would be left out on their own in hard times, I think the 'victims of drought' show just how individualism is a double edged sword - people can succeed without the help of anyone else but people can also be devastated without the help of anyone else.

Chicken and Egg ..... !! And do we mean Emotional Breakdown, instead of mental ? We are all born fully formed as far as our potential is concerned, and barring accidents we will fulfil our potential, be it physical, social, intellectual, etc etc etc including mental ...... So, it is Life's Accidents that derail us and degrade our capacity to realise potential. As for holding onto realised potential, the scary thing seems to be that whatever we get or have, be it a "home" or anything else, we don't have to stray far off centre to lose it !! Our Safety Nets imprison many of us at the bottom of the J curve ..... too many of us forget that maybe we have to fall in the process of learning to fly. But coming back to homelessness - the key point is that some of us lose a home we have done the work to establish, and nothing could be more souldestroying. How do we think people are going to get back to what we might want to call "normality"? It's hard enough to GET a home - and let's face it, some people never get to establish a home of their own - and it only takes a material and significant lapse to propel any of us to oblivion. There are many crazy people who have homes, BUT how many brilliant people without them ? The kind of collapse that results in homelesness is hard to see as anything but a downward spiral. Seldom do we see this happen except that either alcohol or drugs or personality disorder is rampant. none of these is attractive. We dont really want to know ........

Dont You Worry About That.

It seems the public mental hospitals have their own unique way of solving the problems of mental patients accomadation.

They get the staff to assist the patient to look through the paper for private rooms or live in jobs.

They hunt the papers for live in jobs such as housekeeping or gardening etc.

Then they get the patients[ often a drug addicted person] to contact by phone those people.

You the tax payer then pay for the staff to drive the patient out for an interview.

They instruct the patient NOT to inform the poor home owner that they have mental or drug problems.

The staff wait outside usually up the road a bit two or three houses just out of sight.

Then 'if' the accomadation or job is given to that person they re drive them back to the same address.

All still without a word to the property owner.

Robina Hospital have done that to me on three ocashions. Once when my partner was away I actually had a knife put to my throat by the new live in help in the Granny.

My point is these people should be given a card and made to produce it when applying for work and or accomadation.

We should not be putting members of the public at risk and people have a right to know if somebody has mental problems.

Our first! duty is to protect our family. People get choices in life.
A To take drugs
B To get a job and work hard through life.
It really is that simply.

Lets face it the east have just about destroyed our youth with their drug supply which of course enables them to buy more weapons.

Please dont forget there are many returned soldiers who have suffered pretty much in silence and received far less attention that youth smoking pot.

I say if you have a mental problem because YOU chose to take drugs.

As for Robina Public hospital and the Government.

How Dare you endanger myself and family

This is a complex issue with little study of concrete facts that can help us come to solutions that are fact-based.

1. What definition of mental illness to use. Recent clinical research shows that major mental illness is a complex of brain disorders with genetic components. Though genetic origins exist there are identical twins who do not both have a disease. So there appears to be a trigger that fires up the illness, such as, a head injury, or meningitis. Do we include the biological illnesses like schizophrenia, or addictions, or those with post-traumatic stress disorder. Do we include only those individuals formally diagnosed or with predetermined observable behaviors.

2.Who and how to count. The person who has schizophrenia is withdrawn and isolated, secretive. When homeless they do not seek out human contact. They are extremely difficult to locate. When a well-functioning people find themselves "out on the street", say for job loss, they can develop situational depression, which in 6 months can be gone. During this time of depression, people often exhaust the good will of friends and family, as their depression is seen as laziness. They sometimes self-medicate with street drugs that lead to dual diagnosis of drug addiction and depression. When in the spiral do we count them.

3. Crimes against the homeless can lead to mental illness. Homeless often are victims of random crimes. Assault, rape, murder are profounds risks they bear when not secure and lead to post-traumatic stress disorder(PTSD) and should be counted.

At any given moment anywhere from 20 to 25% of the general population have a mental illness. Of the ill group, about 50% will not have insight that they are ill. These stats ring true in divisions of population such as jails, schools, etc. It will be difficult to get numbers in this under-served, or unserved, and neglected population.

But we must start. The question is not whether the number is correct but how quickly can we bring resources to bear on this huge and difficult question. It is time to work together for change based on facts.

Ozein60s

What suggestions do you have to ensure the safety of the main stream public from these people entering homes without disclosure.?

Or do you feel this is unimportant and we should all just risk it?

Do you think perhaps the staff should be putting their time to better use?

Do you think its a good practise to teach the patient to be dishonest about their mental illness?

Would you suggest perhaps that the mental health staff where they pick up their meth were doubled for eg?

Perhaps the ones that have mental health due to substance abuse which is a very high number should be kept seperate from main stream for example.

Far stricker laws for drug users and of course dealers as well perhaps

There is a very real culture in the courts that if you tell your worship that you couldnt help it your `worship because` you have a drug problem you walk.

This encourages even more problems and over crowds the hospital and mental health services by every man and his dog being sent to the units for treatment or` counciling`

What do you think about an ID card for people with mental illness to be used when seeking accomadation?

Dear "People..."

What suggestions do I have to ensure the safety of the main stream public from these people entering homes without disclosure? First off, who are "these people". It sounds like you had a terrible experience. My suggestion is keep safe.
What we know is that a person who is not violent before a break-down is not going to be violent during?
There remains paralyzing stigma to mental illness. It has been and remains a condition which we don't talk about and therefore much of what is incorrect and totally not useful.

You ask, "Do I think 'its a good practise to teach the patient to be dishonest about their mental illness?'" I don't think anyone should put themselves in an unsafe situation. As you said, "these people", you lumped everyone into a single category. This is most unfair, to you and to anyone struggling with these illnesses. There is a big difference between a person on meth, and a person with obsessive-compulsive disorder. It would be unfair for you to make conclusions without sufficient information.

"Far stricker laws for drug users and of course dealers as well perhaps". Laws are important but what is needed is a comprehensive approach, including "mental health courts" with specialize enforcement back-up. We must decriminalize illness, and at the same time insist on treatment and scheduled appearances before the mental health court in order to commute a sentence.
Treatment works.
About the id, why not just have an "A" embroidered on their chest?

Ozein60s

You should never jump to conclusions Oz. I just walked in from doing my Sunday thingy. I shop and pay for a weeks supply of groceries including cigerates for a lady with a mental health problem.
I have done that for the last eight years ever since my Dad befriended a neighbour.
Before that I employed a young man whos mother passed away and just a few days after his little job cutting up cardboard boxes was taken from him. That was his whole life.!

Martin worked here for five years and now proudly runs the shopping center trolly collections. Well he thinks he runs it anyway so thats ok.
Before that I gave a year to supervise [unpaid]

However probably what you were not aware of is the staff at mental hospitals are under preshure to make beds available because of political preshure.

Its totally dishonest to buy these people a paper and tell them to apply for live in housekeeping or accomadation in a persons home without! disclosing they have a mental problem.

Stay Safe you say. Heck they have even supplied references in some cases for cooking.

My experience with the farm hand that provided wonderful references I might add.

He was great! with the horses and a good worker.

All was well until one night I felt a knife at my throat.

According to the police they could do nothing.

They said there were no proof and besides even if they took him and charged him he was by law able to return! to my property
.
I had to put up with him living there until I could get him into court.
The mental health people by the way who dishonestly brought him our property didnt want to know about it.

Oh and the lady housekeeper whom was also driven! by the Robbina Mental Health staff was even worse.

I dont know the answer. I was thinking you might.

Perhaps something on the medi care card.

People,

Sounds like you try to do the right thing and got stung in the past.

Stay safe: lock doors, listen to your instincts, keep an exit path in any situation, watch for signs of impending rage: enlarged neck veins, sweating, glaring, etc. As in a fire, "get out".

Smoking: nicotine treats mental illness and is a dangerous "street drug". 88% of people with schizophrenia smoke compared to 33% of the general population. The nicotine releases norepinephrine and dopamine in the brain which relieve symptoms. Much safer medications are available and one should be encouraged to seek medical help.

A recent study into the relationship of insight, medication compliance and personal support found that while 50% of ill participants had no insight as to their illness, however 97% could follow treatment if they had one person in their life that they would listen to, even trust. That person could be a friend, relative, teacher, minister, anyone.

You ask how to be safe, and not in the precarious position that you found yourself. You want information, like an id. Let me suggest that getting information about the illnesses, their treatment and how to respond may go a long way toward "real" safety.

These illnesses have been hush-hush for so long, like TB, and cancer, and others. It is time for us to join together to end this silence and find a solution. Australia is a wealthy nation. If there is the will, homelessness can be a thing of the past. People who suffer from mental illness can have comprehensive treatment. When treated on all fronts, medical, educational, vocational, they can expect that 75% will return to their livelihood. Those treating people with mental illnesses should not have to hold "bake sales" to get the services for their patients. They should know that the out of hospital facilities will be available.

And furthermore the 25% who are left with significant impairment should be cared for as well, honoring their human rights and dignity as we protect the rights and dignity of the whole population without exclusion.

With respect, OZ

With Respect

You seem to be a little too concerned about the people who have cooked their brains with Pot while holding no concern for the saftey of the public.

That mental health staff are just dropping these people on unsuspecting good people and putting "them" at risk.

No mention of that.

Thats ok with you is it?

How do you justify that?

You really expect people to>lock doors, listen to your instincts, keep an exit path in any situation, watch for signs of impending rage: enlarged neck veins, sweating, glaring, etc. "get out".

You expect me to live like that in my own home and others to esxpose their kids to that?

Oz says>
You ask how to be safe, and not in the precarious position that you found yourself. You want information, like an id.
Oz Says
"Let me suggest that getting information about the illnesses, their treatment and how to respond may go a long way toward "real" safety.'

Now you expect me and other familes to treat these people as well.
Oh thats after they find out they have a problem.
Considering their is no law forecing them to disclose that then I would assume you kmean after they are attacked like I was.

So where do you get your info anyway.

What are you on to dismiss such a serious problem pot?

Yes I want a bloody id card , or put it on their medi care card.

Why isnt my family free to expect to be safe in their OWN Homes?

As I said I dont have the answer but the Government better introduce an ID card for `these people` asap BEFORE somebody gets killed again.
I think the last was about three weeks ago when the boarder killed the baby.
I am not hard just practicle and pot heads are destroying this country along with hard drug users and i WONT expose my family to it.
nor should you expect the public to!

I wonder what that poor mother whos baby was hacked to death would say about an ID Card.

People.....,
Illicit drug use and sale is a serious public safety problem.
Mental illness is a different issue.
Dual diagnosis of drug addiction and mental illness occurs when predators get a hold of the vulnerable.
I share your concern for safety for all, but ask that you participate in finding a lasting solution, not using a shot-gun method and hoping we hit the target.
I praise those who want to base public policy on fact and emotion, not escalation of emotion.
Go in peace,
Oz....

`I share your concern for all`.

No you dont. You just think main stream should cop it.

You dont like anybody pointing out the counter side of risking people with mental problems in their homes and work places.

If you had cared you might have at least come up with a plan to protect both.!

What I mean by that is that it only stands to reason if the system is so bad then it is entiley possibly that these people could also be taken advantage of by others as well.

I am sure there are people out there who have been used and abused just because the preditor thinks nobody will beleive them.

So there is another example of why we need some sort of card ID. Perhaps on their medi care card sunshine.

I think the red cross do something called cross line. Its to keep in contact with the elderly living alone.

Perhaps you could start a system where by people could put their hands up to keep in contact with a mental health patient as well.

At least that way you might be able to actually seperate the drug mental health patients to the non drug afflicted mental health patients.

That could go through to center link .

Center Link have a carers department that are not active other than arangning payments.

With the right political push one of the Governments may well like the idea and dress it up a bit.


Our first duty is to protect the public like the lady whos baby was hacked to death. Our next duty is to leagilise drugs to take it out of the black market by cutting off the dealers funding.

I will give you a tip .

Nothing ever gets sorted out by simply heading for the hills if somebody does not straight away agree with everything to say.


I tell that to the veggie groups all the time.
You might notice they do the same as you did.- Run, which of course helps nobody especially those who need it most.

PALE - perhaps if you spent less time writing garbage on the Internet, you wouldn't have to have 'live-in help' in order to run your household.

I don't suppose it's possible that you have some mental health problems yourself?

Morgan

You may think working to improve animal welfare is gargabe but that just goes to show the bone of your nature.

You may also not like to face the facts in regards to this thread.

The facts are as I said mental health staff should not be used as accomadation agents.

Surley their time is better spent working with the in patients than running those who are to be released around in their cars.

You also seem not to care about what the cosequences have been for the unsuspecting public.

Such as the lady whos baby was stabbed or the child that was rapped and bashed or the familys who lost their daughter.

All those people had been recently released from mental health hospitals and set loose on the public with no warning.

Most mental health people are without a home because their family can no longer deal with them.

Yet your buddy seems to think that its ok to dump them into private households without discosing their problems.

This is not only unfair and dangerous to the general public but unfair on that patient.

It requires a lot of work from Goverment level educating the public and work shops to put some practises into play.

As for your comment about my requiring a house keeper it shows some sort of personal attack towards myself clearly.

Let me enlighten you . We actually run a international school and homestays a farm stay and NFP Animal Welfare org.

Apart from that we also have three elderly people all living alone that we support by assisting to aquire live in help.

My Husband and I told you friend as well personally also assist a mental health patient.
So yes we are always looking for live in cleaners, cooks house mothers and staff in general.

' We are very busy people working not only to improve conditions for animal welfare but actually asisting mental health people also.
How are you! helping people with mental health problems may I enquire?