As an engineer and Pilot I was convinced that the manufacturing and servicing of planes has highest standards in regards of quality control.

That may have been a big illusion. After seeing the documentary "A wing and a Prayer" on SBS I was deeply shocked! The movie can be found on the internet and is worth to be watched: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IaWdEtANi-0

Now I ask myself how Qantas and Virgin Australia can verify if the fuselages of their new generation Boeing 737-700 and 737-800 have been built without faulty parts. I wonder how pilots may feel flying these planes before it hasn't been verified.

The other question is if CASA will try to check the claims to make sure that Australian passengers are safe, because the FAA and NSB in the USA seem to try to wipe the facts under the carpet.

Shareholder value again seems to be more important than safety and CEO's do not care to bend all rules to maximise profit.

Maybe I have meantime to change my preferences and fly Jetstar who's fleet shows Airbus models and Boeing 717's only.

ChrisH

Dear Chris,

Thanks for this thread.

My husband saw that SBS program and was absolutely horrified, same as you. In addition to the Boeing 737's NG he's also made a note to avoid airbus 380, that had reports of engine problems.

At that rate the airlines will loose many passengers unless they abandon the faulty planes.

I saw enough of the program to get the message. I’m flying from north Queensland to Perth in a few hours. It seems that there is a lot more to worry about than being delayed by volcanic ash!

Dear Ludwig,

Have a safe flight Ludwig.

Thinking of you.

What type of aircraft do you fly Chris? From your post I would guess it's little ones.

I'm an old navy fleet air arm pilot. Even then we had a light shining in a mirror to help us down. I take my hat off to the old timers who did it with a bloke waving at them with a couple of tennis racket like things.

The first thing that worries me today is how old some airliners are. Some of the ships that the navy considered worn out, & sank for dive wrecks, were younger than some aircraft still in commercial fleets.

Then we see how automated modern commercial stuff is. There's a bl00dy computer in there second guessing the pilot, & deciding if it will allow him to do what he wants to do. I can only suppose that has been done because so many pilots wanted to do the wrong thing. Really frightening. Hell, I won't even drive a fly by wire car, after the trouble Toyota had with those Camry computers, & as for stability control, I shudder at the thought of what it could do to you.

I don't think we have too many pilots left who would be capable of making that landing in the Hudson river that saved a plane load of passengers, when the computer aids stop working along with the engines. All to often the pilot appears to be a passenger, if any of the systems start playing up.

The roads may be becoming a bit of a pain, but I'll take the car thanks, but make it an old simple one.

I played a small roll in a long running aircraft dispute.
At its end a victory was won.
But solid friendships built then WARNED us all quietly but EXTREMELY firmly,do not travel on one fleet.
Servicing had been bad wheels had dropped of on the tarmac.
I am no longer a union official,but never for legal reasons tell what firm.
This is not anti flying,not anti boss not anti anything
Australian servicing standards are no longer the ones we grew up with.
I would still fly,but not on one fleet.

Hi Hasben

yes I fly small planes only, with engines and without, and flew many years in the gliding national team and in competitions. For worst case I still prefer to wear a parachute on my back and prefer to rely on glide angle instead of trusting the engine completely to make a safe landing.

There seem still to be airline pilots around who can land a plane in a worst case scenarios, but by shortening their training and with all this fly by wire technology it's getting more difficult.

But simple rules can safe life and give time to solve a problem: Switch off the auto pilot and fly 70% thrust and and angle of attack of 4 degrees - that works for most planes even with iced airspeed sensors.

But if primary structures fail - then your only hope of survival is minimum height and a parachute - or in an airline - prayers.

Great stuff chris, I always wanted to do some gliding, it must be the purest form of flying. Somehow life & other things to do, always got in the way.

I also felt totally safe with a parachute, & 8000 feet of air under me, I reckoned I could handle any thing that went wrong with those conditions.

Then they took us down to the parachute packing space, to see it done, & give us confidence. After that I couldn't believe that they would ever open.

One question chris.

Do you know why they are not using inertial navigation systems, or GPS systems, rather than a pitot tube, that can ice up, or be otherwise blocked?

From what we see on crash evaluations, on TV, pitot tubes do have troubles, & todays aircraft depend so much on these inputs.

Dear Hasbeen,

I think I'll be travelling by car from now on as well.
Older cars - love them. What's your favourite?

Dear Hasbeen,
you cannot replace pitot tubes with INS or GPS systems. These give you only position and speed over ground can be calculated from it. This leaves wind speed unconsidered.
Pneumatic instruments to indicate horizontal, vertical speed and altitude are primary instruments and still compulsory in any cockpit.

Spike Milligan of course summed it up quite correctly.

Flying is perfectly safe, its crashing that can be dangerous :)

Enjoy Perth Ludwig, its a great little spot on the planet,
fortunately many arn't aware of it.

Hi Lexi, I've always been a bit of a sucker for lost causes & the underdog, so when the kids stopped horsing around, I sold off all the horse gear, & bought an old Triumph TR7. It was a bit of a disappointment.

I bought 2 wrecks & built myself a good one over a year or so, & it's been my daily driver for 10 years now, & I love it to death. I kind of like that they are unloved in general.

Still, 10 years of mostly country back roads & my Triumph's finish is now more stone chip than paint, & I want to give it another repaint. I'm looking for a convertible Triumph, [as I sometimes have trouble getting into the low coupe], to use while this happens. With me, painting could take months.

I've found one, just it's owner doesn't know he wants to sell it to me yet, but I'm sure he will some time. Can't hurry these things can you.

What are you driving?

Thanks chris, I assumed there would be a simple answer, but had not thought too deeply.

Still, strange combination, the most modern electronic gear, fed inputs by the oldest & most simple.

Of course that stuff is so dependant on the pilot. A couple of instructors from Uranquinty No1 BFTS, [near Wagga] when I was doing my training there, spun a Tiger Moth into the deck at a Canberra air show, because they had forgotten to correct their altimeter after flying over from Uranquinty.

Fortunately the Tigers rate of decent in a spin is so slow they both walked away from it. I think one of them was the Chief flying instructor too. It does show how important the pilot doing the simple things correctly is, despite the automatics.

Cheers Lexi and Yabby.

Unfortunately I was exquisitely PINCERED!!

Managed to fly from Townsville to Brisbane, then the flight to Perth was cancelled, leaving me STRANDED!

Aaaaaarrrgh!! Currently got a four-hour wait in Sydney. Might just possibly make it to Perth later tonight! ):>(

Dear Ludwig,

You poor man. Who could have predicted any of this?
Perhaps next time - catch a train - it may be faster
(and safer)?

Lexi, I wasn't particularly concerned about the disruption due to the ash cloud over Perth, but I was really peeved this morning when Virgin proved that they couldn't organise a fart in a cow paddock by not getting us from the accommodation they provided back to the airport in time for the rescheduled flight!! !! !!

What a doozey!

So, here I am spending another few hours of hanging around the airport like a... um... stale fart!

Dear Ludwig,

Well at least you're up and about. I'm currently home with a
tail end of the flu. Anyway, I trust that it will all end well
for you and you'll look back on all this as just another one
of life's "challenges."

Dear Hasbeen,

A Triumph TR7 - brings back so many memories.
We currently drive a Holden Statesman sedan. My dream is to
purchase a 1969 Mercedes Tunis Beige Metallic 280SL EURO model.
I've actually spotted one I like on the web. My husband is eyeing
a 1966, 230S Sedan. We'll see who'll win.

One of my friends had to abort take off at 160 knots in a 777 when the engine back-fired. He said it was the most almighty bang one can imagine. No wonder in the world's largest jet engine.
I was also told that the 380 out of Singapore had fire engines pouring water into the affected engine to stop it. The fly by wire stuff was cut during the disintegration & the skipper couldn't shut down. Pretty wild when you're on the runway with glowing hot brakes & an engine blaring away at full bore.
I always envisage the 320 in Paris performing a perfect final into the woods because the pilot was unable to overrule the computer. Now they build that 787 out of composite which is not at all good for lightning strikes.
I'm no expert but the latest technology is not always reassuring.

Lexi, I detect a preference for something solid & respectable there, rather than my more impractical choice. Hope you get the one you want.

Ludwig, that's standard Virgin.

I was to pick up a lady from a Virgin flight from Coolangatta, [the Gold Coast] airport one evening a few months back.

A very sever thunder storm delayed the landing of all aircraft for a while. Jetstar diverted a couple of flights to Brisbane, & bussed the passengers back to the coast. A third of their flight land at the airport after the storm had passed.

Jetstar had a couple of those airport ladies, [you know the ones, attractive, well groomed, & almost identical to all the others of the breed], manning an information desk, & another couple running around advising their customers of progress with their passengers.

Virgin on the other hand had no one. The 30 or so people waiting for passengers could not find any one admitting to be Virgin staff. We could get no information from their Brisbane phone number, not even an answer.

I finally found the answer one & a half hours later, when my passenger phoned me from Sydney. Virgin had returned 3 planes, & passengers to Sydney. She was calling to tell me what new flight she would be on in the morning.

Without that call, the 30 of us could have been there all night, awaiting Virgin's courtesy.

I would rather they returned to Sydney that try a dangerous landing, but we will in future pick an airline that will try to organise information to their clients.

Dear Hasbeen,

Solid and respectable? Not sure about that - although
I've had it drummed into me all of my life - so you're
probably right. Perhaps I'll go nuts as I age - ;-)
and become an eccentric that everyone talks about.
Ah well, you can dream.

Seriously though, I admit I've got a thing for
mercs - and the old classic ones, not the current
ones that look so ordinary. I guess it could be
because my father loved them so much.

Anyway, I won't be too disappointed if I don't
get what I want - it's only a car - right?

I won't be flying Virgin again - thanks for
bringing us up to date on that air-line.

Guess you guys sidestep the topic.
The question is: How risky is it to fly new technology Boeing 737?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IaWdEtANi-0

How risky is it to fly new technology Boeing 737 ?
chris_ho,
My guess is it'd be as safe/unsafe as any other aircraft. I'd say a lot depends on how much stress it is subjected to. It can be pilot induced stress i.e. flying into bad weather or a hard landing. Of course shonky materials & sloppy workmanship don't help either. It is the nature of man-made things to not function properly at times. I fly a lot in small aircraft & for some strange reason I feel less vulnerable than in a huge jet.

The linked film shows that primary safety structures of about 1500 Boeing 737NB fuselages have been built with not airworthy parts and that already 3 aircraft fuselages have broken after just overrunning the runway. Boeing, FAA and the US NSB try to cover it up instead of investigating the matter, which is as much worrying as the faults in flying planes.
If you watch the film then maybe you would be a bit worried as well. Film ->> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IaWdEtANi-0
It was emitted by SBS Dateline a short time ago.

We always preferred flying Qantas - because of their excellent past reputation. However now with all the recent
spate of problems that their planes have been having - how safe
are their planes - and where and how are they maintained? It seems
as if short-cuts are being taken and safety is in jeopardy for the benefit of bigger proftis.

When a big jet rolls of the bitumen at a 100 knots the undercarriage & that section of the fuselage cop some pretty hefty stress. That is a natural place for the fuselage to break.
When a car hits a power pole then the grill gets shoved into the engine block. When a ship comes down onto a single point of impact then the keelson i.e. the backbone snap. It doesn't appear too unusual for three 737's to break in the same place in identical accidents.
It is of course alarming about the quoted manufacturing process but one shouldn't forget that all the other 737's with the same inferior parts are still ok at this stage. Maybe because they haven't been slammed onto the runway yet.

Dear Individual,

If there is evidence that faulty parts have been used and stress- cracks and corrosion have been found in those parts that exceed normal wear and tear of such parts it is inevitable that with time and
the stress that planes encounter in flight, eg. falling hundreds of metres in an air-pocket, destruction will eventually occur in mid-flight. Unlike a train, a bus, or a car, that has the safety of being on solid ground, an aeroplane doesn't have that security and it is best if evidence of faulty construction is published to avoid such
aeroplanes in the interests of one's own safety.

We cannot expect Big Business who've invested in a product to take a loss in profits in the interest of the flying public unless they're compensated in some way or are pressured by the abstaining traveller and then they will sell this fleet to an unsuspecting 3th World country.

As an engineer and Pilot..
chris_ho,
That reminds of a 747 jockey I spoke with a few months ago. He actually quit his job from major & quite glamourised airline because in his words "I got scared of flying because of their appalling maintenance".
I fear that the baby boomers are the last of the pragmatic generations & all we get from now on are Uni qualified technicians. What a lot of people don't realise is that no matter how much education a technician has he still needs to be exposed to the culture of the profession. Any profession has a culture but the more we focus on Uni qualification the more culture is lost & with that pragmatism is lost also. It don't look all that good for these industries.

Dear Individual,

I totally agree. Overwhelming importance is attached to educational qualifications of various kinds. In the past couple of decades the proportion of the population with bachelor's and master's degrees, and even doctorates has increased at an astonishing pace. Why has this happened? Probably because on the whole a higher credential means higher earnings because of the value the job market places on it.

Yet numerous studies have shown that there is little or no relationship between educational achievement and job performance or
productivity. Good grades in a graduate school of medicine or education are poor predictors of whether someone will become a good doctor or teacher. The fact is that the skills required to achieve a grade A or higher in a university course on anatomy or educational philosophy are not the same as the skills needed to deal with a medical emergency or an unruly high school class. Most people pick up
the necessary skills on the job, not in the classroom.

However we can only hope and trust that the education and training of
pilots for their job includes both the educational aspects as well as the "hands-on" approach.