http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stories/afp_asiapacific/view/1132733/1/.html

"the Gillard Government yesterday announced it would suspend animal exports to 11 Indonesian facilities shown to practise cruel slaughtering of cattle."

"Australia's controversial plan to send boatpeople to Malaysia could be finalised next week," where "The prospect of caning is real."

How is it that Julia Gillard after a decade of decrying the "inhumane treatment of asylum seekers" under the pacific solution has stooped to something far more brutal.

SM
For once I have to agree. This is an unusual situation where the plight of animals while horrendous and unacceptable is suddenly deemed so important to consider banning live exports, while refugees are traded 1:5 with Malaysia with still no agreement over conditions among all parties including the UNHRC.

Nauru would be the better option if detention remains policy, but the ALP won't do it because it will look like a backdown over Howard policy. The fact is all the ALP is doing at the moment is changing geographies, whether it is Naura, Christmas Island, PNG, East Timor or Indonesia, it is still offshore processing. Call it a Pacific Solution, an Asia Solution or a Land of Lilliput Solution, it is all the same.

There are no Certainty's, we have seen every side of this matter debated and there are many.
If you did not know us, the posters here in OLO you may get it very wrong.
Based on this post you could think Shadow minister is concerned for refugees, click the little man under his post review his post history.
Driven by increasing concerns about a culture within our culture, many want the boats to stop.
Radio shock jocks, some truly bigoted, drive people to skim the surface of the issue, on both sides.
SM is a servant of Tony Abbott, both want to pin down this government on this and any issue.
And polls and deeply held community views have driven Labor from the high moral ground.
Stopping the boats is the mandate now of both party's.
Abbott demanded it, Gillard is close to isolating it as an issue.
So will refugees be flogged? maybe maybe not, but look see the tactics in use here.
And look at the possible out comes in the refugee debate.
ONE, we drop all attempts to stop boats arriving.
Result? Left greens 14% win cuddles all round and 86% of Australians continue to be unhappy,Labor out of government.
Conservatives win election boats are stopped, even if it uses MALAYSIAN solution as Howard proved most are happy conservatives stay in power fora long time after Labor falls at its weakest.
UNHCR has given approval, why, well it gains access to refugees in that country we take 4000 long term refugees and stop, yes it will, the boats.
No Certainty's but it is Certain some will use any line to miss lead.

lol
my party right or wrong
[noting bellies 3 rd line..;attack the mess-anger]

nothing further to read here
its clear that the lab tatters policies are weak ,especially on human rights..[of course forrests/animals have rights..but humans..lol..let them get the cain..or get run over by docs

i note belly has much to say about docs
but beating people with 5 foot split cane
beating them red raw..dripping with blood..
yep the labrats say thats fine

but show a halfhour of footage of eye gouging
and snout beating..tail breaking..and other human barbarities
[upon beasts]..while ignoring the 5 second news bites on beatings
well thats the new labour way...

[if media dont lead..
or murderoch hard press dont cover it
it dont deserve labrat attention..labratter's party couldnt give a hoot]

and once again
as much as you belly think labrat applies to you
MATE IT DONT...!

it aplies to those
2 party hookers..
[mainly ex lawyers/bankers/docters/musitions]

running their fraud[feelgood]..grand tax and gift/scemes
that con-sult only with big business
but let the others..[us..the unrepresented swill]..*be dammed

and taxed into early graves..
let's us gamble drink and eat ourselves into heaven
and the ref-u-geez be dammed...lets protect the cattle

bah
they make a new pacific solution
without human right oversight
clever juliar

your party right or wrong
their all labrattters mate..when are..you going to catch on?

and combette..[your hero]...the minester FOR cli-MATE/change
just like tukkie was minester FOR forestry

even the tax wont fix the real problems
[our globe developed BECAUSE of cheap energy
take/away cheap energy..all labratters got left is cheap labour
[and that dont mean jobs for aussie's..only back packers/slaves

singapure sets our petrol; price
malasia sets our refugees policy
accountants....bankers set our tax policies

i will remind people
that labratters spending is still increasing
they expect the big new TAXES..to bring it down

dont forget..aussies lost 32 BILLION
of their super yestyerday alone

and the other labratter plan..is to increase..
our COMPulsORrY SUPER..so we prop up the stock marketteeers even more

ie they will soon get you
even if you think your part of their 'union'*

stop faciluitating their addictions
wakeup before it gets much worse

and

[yes the libs are no better..!]

party loyalty
is treason to the state
[read up on odious debt..!][its a crime]

SM,

Why are you pointing the finger at Labor when the Libs were no better
in their treatment of asylum seekers. I don't believe that you've suddenly discovered compassion for these poor unfortunates.

All politicians make policies which they hope will gain them re-election. Hence no matter what the government - we've always had a race to the bottom where ludicrous arguments about "queues" and "border integrity" have been used to justify what has always been policies of exemplary cruelty. Why should this government be any different. In the past Australians seemed to like the fact that our government locked up asylum seekers - detention centres were popular. As Scott Morrison made it quite clear - if you do anything to alleviate the cruel and unusual conditions at Christmas Island - this will only send a message that Australia is
"putting the white flag up."

Ben Eltham writes, "Let's be frank about asylum seeker policy. It's not "border protection," it's "oppression." It's not "processing,"
it's "incarceration." Asylum seekers are not "illegal" or "unauthorised," they have a legal right to claim asylum in Australia. It's not about "stopping the boats," it's about inflicting great harm on innocent people to satisfy voters in marginal seats.
Alexander Solzhenitsyn would have found it all too familiar."

At some point, Australia will have to become part of the rest of the world. Right now, we are looking extremely selfish, not to mention rednecked and bumbling.

While last week's issue of The Economist describes a country that has been unbelievably lucky in its geography and its history, we are quibbling pathetically about the tiny number of sad souls who try to get here to start a new life away from oppression and poverty.

http://www.economist.com/node/18744197?story_id=18744197

"Many Australians do not seem to appreciate that they live in an unusually successful country. Accustomed to unbroken economic expansion—many are too young to remember recession—they are inclined to complain about house prices, 5% unemployment or the problems that a high exchange rate causes manufacturing and several other industries. Some Australians talk big but actually think small, and politicians may be the worst offenders... Its current political leaders, with notable exceptions, are perhaps the least impressive feature of today’s Australia."

It is a useful exercise occasionally to take a look at ourselves from the outside, looking in. Because being rich and lucky is one thing. Being dog-in-the-manger whingers is entirely another.

"O wad some Pow'r the giftie gie us
To see oursels as others see us!
It wad frae mony a blunder free us,
An' foolish notion:
What airs in dress an' gait wad lea'e us,
An' ev'n devotion!"

Robert Burns: "Ode to a louse"

Belly,

This is a situation entirely of Labor's making. Hypocrisy especially of this breathtaking magnitude. This Malaysian solution is far worse than the Pacific solution and goes beyond anything that Howard contemplated.

Labor's troubles could have been largely solved by re opening Nauru, and re issuing TPVs. Instead they come up with this abomination and not surprisingly, the coalition is kicking them around the field.

After a decade of claiming that there were no pull factors, only push factors, they are attempting a solution similar to the pacific solution, and once again ballsing it up.

With the additional "aid" we need to give Malaysia, the costs we need to cover, and the 4000 additional refugees we need to resettle, this is looking per capita wise the most expensive exercise ever. The estimates are as high as $1bn or over $1m per asylum seeker sent to Malaysia.

The kicker this morning is that an early draft excludes any reference to human rights. Another ALP policy gem.

Lexi,

The Malaysian solution trumps anything the Libs put in place. The criticism is valid, especially since Juliar spent nearly a decade shrilly harping on the inhumanity of the pacific solution.

Now they will send unaccompanied children to a country that refuses to guarantee their human rights.

SM,

I question your making political capital out of Australia's refugee programs. I am concerned about the way both parties are using the issue of refugee policies. As Liberal Party MP Judi Moylan (and others) have stated:

"I rise today to call on Government and the Opposition to stop political tactics, end the escalating hysterical rhetoric over who can produce the toughest refugee policies and for men and women of conscience in this place to call for the end of the politicisation of asylum policy."

Of course Labor's policy is not the answer - yet how quickly you've forgotten the chaos in detention centres - the realisation that the so called Pacific Solution was the ultimate in policy on the run, or the many riots, fires, hunger-strikes and self-harm incidents that happened in many detention centres during the Howard era. Neither government has a track record for handling the situation well. Neither has the right to feel smug about the issue.

It's sad that in the weird world of Australian asylum seeker policy treating people decently and humanely according to international law is seen by many as "putting the white flag up."

cont'd ...

BTW: For your information SM. - Last night on Lateline Tony Jones interviewed the Minister of Immigration on the issues that have been raised in the media and was clearly told that what has been leaked to date to the media are draft proposals by both the Australian Government and the Malaysian Government - and no final agreement has been reached or signed.

When and if that agreement is finalised the Minister said that he will willingly appear on Lateline and explain all the conditions of the agreement. To any-one's knowledge no-one is being sent anywhere at present until an agreement has been reached and signed.

So propagating hysteria and condemnation may be pre-mature.

OUG ignored!
Now may I introduce a stranger to the thread?
TRUTH.
It is more than unlikely any children will be sent to Australia after this is signed is it not?
And it should be clear that the reason is the threat of? Malaya.
Do we all know children are being sent here now, by parents who hope at a later date they will bring them.
What prey tell Pelican is the alternative.
A conservative government would use the off shore card they are saying that now, but would they use this system if boats continued to come, YES.
Social activists are taking sides with the worst of conservatives, to help the chance the only party of change is tossed out.
Who thinks to look, please do ,12 months back when this opposition Minster for this matter shouting his discust right now.
SEE his advice this system should be developed with IRAN!
Foolish people dreaming dreams of green growth are poisoning the government and helping conservatives.
This scheme was always about stopping the boats Abbot did not want that TO happen, until he gained power.
Divide and conquer Abbott the man who bought about a royal commission against workers in the building industry/ helped bring work choices in.
Now calls for left groups to get involved in what amounts to a stolen briefing note not final report from FOXs equal the greens ABC.

Lexi,

The pacific solution worked. 160 asylum seekers a year vs 7000 is a clear indicator. Nobody died needlessly in boats that sank compare to an estimated 200 in the last couple of years. Neither was anyone beaten. While the pacific solution was not perfect, the Labor policy is a complete disaster.

After a decade shrilly criticizing and politicizing the Liberal policy, and creating a situation that about 80% of the electorate thinks is out of control, the Labor government has to face the music.

Now that Juliar has dealt her hand and announced the Malaysian solution, she is in an appalling negotiating position. If she backs out, she loses all credibility. The Malaysians know this and are ready to take her to the cleaners.

The draft policy is fairly indicative of what they want, and Juliar is in no position not to give it to them.

I'm inclined (for once) to agree with SM on the fact that Julia and Labor have almost no credibility on this issue, and their "solution" is nothing but a cobbled together gallimauphry of hastily instituted half-baked arrangements.

Desperation is the key word here....it's lucky that Australia doesn't have its own space program or Julia would probably send them to the moon - the "Lunar Solution".

guffaw...lol

'a stolen brief''

its funny how the us president
and the aussie foreign minester
[and juliar guilelard..]

can REMIND CHINA
OF THEIR..'human rights'...'obligations']

yet juliar..and her lab/minestering rats
cant tell malasia..

lol

..in a briefing note

you can be so funny bellies

can i ignore you
that is the question

remember to have your friends close
and even closer those who you dont be/friend

i vill be vatching you

because i know we're mates
cause im a unionist too

its..my blame
that we got rid of howard...too

but at least john howhard did
an excersize routeen now and again

and didnt sound like a fish monger
selling stinkey fish..on a hot day
by knocking...the other fish/smellers

politics needs police going through the lot of em
[not revenjue raising and ignorong govt malfeasance
guess thats why they were the only public servants to get a raise]

when the mob hits the street
at least those protecting
the green/lab/lib-o-rats
...got their silver*

Shadow- simple answer to your first question is that Gillard simply reads out what her party thinks their audience wants to hear;
Easier to do in opposition, but when in government (particularly when swinging voters are only supporting labor due to its seeming anti- Workchoices policy and the fact that Howard was planning to retire anyway), puts Labor on a precarious ground to maintain its mandate.

SM,

Marc Purcell writing for The National Times tells us that "from 2001-2007 Australia spent more than $1 billion to process less than 1,700 asylum seekers in the discredited Pacific Solution's offshore locations of Manus Islands and Nauru. This equited to more than half a million dollars per person."

"Most of the people were found to be genuine refugees and were settled in Australia or New Zealand. One of the first acts of the newly elected Labor government in 2007 was to affirm its policy never to institute the discredited Pacific Solution."

This was due to the fact that as we all know asylum seekers held in detention under the former Pacific Solution paid a heavy price in mental health and wellbeing. According to Purcell - "Many suffered persecution at the hands of the Taliban, Saddam Hussein or the civil war in Sri Lanka, were left isolated with inadequate access to mental health support."

"Riots and a malaria outbreak were experienced by the first Manus Island detainees and in September 2002 - more than 40 asylum seekers tried to escape by swimming away from the island. Rates of depression and self harm soared as the remote locations were far from adequate psychological services. On Nauru the Pacific Solution came to a miserable end in 2005 as the final 25 asylum seekers were brought to Australia for urgent medical and psychological treatment by then Immigration Minister Amanda Vanstone - on the advice of medical and psychological experts."

- "Public accountability also suffered. The media, lawyers, human rights reps were either barred from visiting or were hindered by the high cost of reaching these remote locations. This placed the actions of commonwealth officers and private contractos out of the reach of public scrutiny and accountability."

And you claim this solution was successful? The financial costs of the Pacific Solution does not stack up either as the cost was vastly more than what it would have cost to process asylum seekers for identity, security and health checks on the Australian mainland - a system that is proven to work effectively if adequately resourced.

Lexi,

Labor is spending more than $1bn per annum between incarceration, processing legal costs etc, compared to the same amount over 8 years you cited, I would say that labor's policy was an epic failure.

In the later of the 8 years the average arrivals were in the order of 100. Today we have nearly 7000.

By what fantastical metric is what we have now better than what we had prior to 2007?

P.S. How is the mental health of the 50 lost at Christmas island and the estimated 170 lost off Indonesia since 2008?

Australia did pay Lexis massive bill for every refugee under John Howard it may well be true that only pride stops us using the Howard solution.
But we are paying EVERY CENT to send these boat people to Malaya, and to keep them there.
Not because we are a horrible country.
Maybe in part because we let the whole issue be used to flog politicians by politicians.
Confront this, it is us voters, who demand an end to boats.
Enought to change this government, any government.
Both sides willing to do almost anything spend almost any amount to do our bidding.
If Gillard said today, ok we are sorry we intend to go back to the Howard solution.
Would Shadow minister say well done,would the left be content with any thing other than an open door.
We get out comes that are at best compromises.

SM,

If I had all the answers for you - I'd probbly be in politics - instead I can simply follow my conscience and point things out to you to widen your take on things and correct where you're misguided or misinformed. All we can hope is that surely someone somewhere shall be able to come up with a better solution to the problem that has
perplexed all sides of politics for sometime - and probably will for sometime to come. As I stated previously, we currently have a race to the bottom where ludicrous arguments are used to justify actions that the pollies think will gain them re-election.

I have nothing more to say on this subject. I'm going to go and take a nice hot bath and pretend the world is full of decent people.

Lexi,

The world abounds with "decent" people, although sadly they don't appear to be inhabiting the front bench of the Federal Government.

" A number of West Australian Labor MPs have signed a letter opposing plans to send unaccompanied children to Malaysia under an asylum seeker deal."
In draft documents, Malaysia has removed all references to human rights.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2011/06/03/3235319.htm

Lexi,

You are right to some extent. There is no perfect solution. Whilst detaining people on Nauru is distasteful, it pales compared to the floods of people that would come with an open door policy.

Belly,

If Labor adopted the pacific solution I would be deprived of one of my better weapons to beat the idiots in government, and would be left with only I told you so.

http://resources.news.com.au/files/2011/06/03/1226069/014125-110604-labor.pdf

Some food for thought:

"Labor urged to revive Pacific Solution by refugee activists

LABOR'S support base on border security is crumbling, with a key critic of the Howard government's Pacific Solution calling for its partial revival in preference to Labor's "nightmare" plan to send unaccompanied children to Malaysia."

Marion Le, a refugee lawyer, last night urged Labor to reopen the Nauru processing centre - the same facility she demanded be shut in 2005 because of concern about the treatment of asylum-seekers.

She was backed by human rights lawyer Julian Burnside, who accused Labor of failure on refugees and said asylum-seekers would receive better treatment in Nauru than Malaysia.

Meanwhile, in Western Australia, 14 state Labor MPs signed a petition condemning the plan to send unaccompanied minors to Malaysia as part of the refugee swap.

Opposition to Julia Gillard's Malaysian solution hardened yesterday after news that a draft agreement over her plan to exchange 800 boatpeople for 4000 confirmed refugees processed in Malaysia excluded any reference to human rights.

Just have to comment further on the plan to send unaccompanied children to Malaysia, and under a deal that has had human rights scrubbed clean off the agenda.

The stars continue to fall from this longtime Labor voter's eyes - can you imagine the sort of protest this type of decision would have provoked when the Labor party was in opposition? They would have been spitting chips if the Howard Government had suggested such a thing.

While Tony Abbott fails to inspire in any shape or form, Gillard is leading a government which is becoming more despicable by the day. It's unbelievable that a party who engaged in much wailing and gnashing of teeth over Howard's questionable policy on asylum seekers is now contemplating dumping asylum seeking tots into refugee camps with no protections in place.

Unbelievable!

Poirot, may I ask you and those who inhabit my side of the fence to read and understand my thought in just this post.
I turn 66 in a few months.
Have seen this before.
My ALP has form for not selling its actions and the reasons for them.
Not thankfully for back downs.
Climate change, so very many back downs.
We will struggle Gillard is improving but in truth,only her leaving can help my party.
From within my party is being beaten to a pulp.
And those driving our party's policy's on this matter middle Australia will NEVER GO AWAY.
POIROT SHOW ME THE CHILDREN
Show me the first one,to be sent to Malaysia.
This is the fact,sign that deal the UNHCR says is ok.
They get in to that country,we knowing we must,watch every refugee.
And my very intelligent Friend, my caring Friend,we may send no one to Malaysia.
Not one boat may come.
Not one child may be sent.
Are you aware the shadow minister DID WANTED THIS DEAL WITH IRAN.
Tony Abbott is visiting our manufacturing industry's,talking to workers asking them to turn on Labor.
He who spent multi million dollars in a Royal Commission into the building industry taking workesr rights away.
Who supported WORK CHOICES uses the workers/left to destroy this government.
You are answering his call, for the greens/left to get out on the streets and condemn Labor.
Continued

Within the Australian Labor Party,within every party disquiet exists.
We feel the pain of these people, I do truly.
You will say about those larger numbers who arrive by plane and stay.
We know that.
We will be told it is wrong to lock children up,yes it is, it too is wrong to drown them at sea.
We can hurt we can cry but we can not change this, SOME AUSTRALIANS based on the actions and views of SOME refugees will never vote for governments that do not stop boats.
My life among the left has time and again seen them[and the DLP right] impose Labors exile from government bench's on us all.
Your Mr Bob Brown on this issue is of more use to conservatives than Alan Jones ever was.

Belly,

Some of us (naively, perhaps) expect a political party to have the "courage of its convictions". However, it's becoming increasingly apparent that the Labor Party only ever wielded so-called convictions on this issue as a feather duster in the direction of the Howard government's asylum seeker policy.

Excuse me if I'm a tad cynical and bewildered that a party who stood for one thing, now that the pressure is on, jettisons its faux altruism and institutes measures more odious than those they opposed that were set up by the previous government.

Belly,

" the UNHCR says is okay".....

STOP PRESS.....apparently the UNHCR is of the opinion that these planned new arrangements are decidedly "not okay" - "scathing", I believe, is the description used in this article.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2011/06/04/3235529.htm

Show me the child you defend show me the boat people we intend to send .
Read the exact words the UNHCR have said, they want assurances.
KNOW UNDERSTAND voters demand an end to boats they will get what they want.
Tell me do you understand Labors 23 years in opposition because its side fractured?
Because some wanted better policy's , but ones that never got to be implemented.
Is it clear reformist governments reform not the conservatives pulling the wool over our country's eyes ably assisted by the lost ,damaging, unfocused greens.
Show me the first child, if we ever send one kid I will eat my garden trees and all.

http://www.abc.net.au/am/content/2011/s3235572.htm

Now even the UNHCR who was prepared to work with Howard at Nauru has walked away from this Malaysian solution.

Juliar has won the race to the bottom, and has now started digging.

Belly,

Labor's refugee deal is a pig's breakfast.

Bowen is now trying to justify if by saying that if children are exempted then they could sponsor their families out here at a later date.
Why do ask me to show you the children who will be sent, when the "arrangements" haven't yet been finalised? The UNHCR is demanding changes or it will not support the Malaysian deal.

Remember that most of Australia's boat arrivals are usually found to be genuine refugees....and this includes unaccompanied children. Why would a country like Australia, who sees itself as a champion of human rights, send unaccompanied minors to refugee camps in a country that is not a signatory to the convention?

Don't you know that the world and particularly the Asian region, abounds in child slavery and indentured labour - these kids would be prime targets for children smugglers.

The Labor Party, as far as I'm concerned, is scraping the bottom of the barrel on this one....

There is now only one way left to settle this problem,
Anyone who arrives illegally by boat is returned to either their
port of departure or to their country of origin.

That will stop the traffic immeadiatly, so it will not be necessary
to send anyone back.

End of problem.

Interesting logic, Bazz.

For a start, seeking asylum is not "illegal" - and if you return someone to their country of origin or their port of departure, you are "sending them back".

Bazz it can not happen if it could it would.
Most destroy all documents before landing.
This under international law makes them stateless,, for a time.
Few help authorities find out who they are.
So no country would take them.
Poirot takes the greens self righteous path,
The refugees are refugees one.
MUCH MORE COMPLEX!
Most do get to stay,under Howard and even more under Labor.
We hear of plane arrivals, but it ignores this.
Believe it,under Howard's rule it cost half a million dollars FOR EVERY ARRIVAL,
I think it costs us more now.
For 100 refugees we pay 50 million dollars!
Stop the boats and we can spend every cent on what?
Remember these folk pay thousands to smugglers,we pay ten times ten that.
Why do refugee advocates not cry for the penniless in camps?

I see another 59 have arrived today. The last 3 weeks have seen more than 200 scheduled for Malaysia, it looks as though the 800 quota is going to be filled quickly.

Epic Failure

Well Belly & Poirot, they won't get on the boats if they know they
would be sent back, so the problem does not arise.
If they were silly enough to get on a boat it would only happen once.
It would be necessary to intercept them before they reach Australian
territory, and in the Indonesia Rescue zone.
The boats could be sent back or towed back.
The Indonesians could not refuse Indonesian boats entry.

Well nothing else works, so something like this will have to be implemented.

Yet another 59.

This brings the total in the last month since Juliar announced her policy to nearly 300 or 1/3rd of the 800 for the next 4 years.

What are the odds on the 800 quota lasting the year?

Another Labor EPIC failure.