Lets have a think tank.
Try to talk about these matters of concern without involving politics.
What would you do, what is best for this country.
My thoughts are evolving, may have been very different just a year or two ago.
I think migration should be on a needs basis, those who will add to our country and do well here should get preference.
I agree with the Church we should not promote more children by paying parents to have them.
We could however, in the name of productivity fund child care.
Refugees, yep it will be hard to keep politics out of it, but in my view no one side has an answer.
I think the UN convention will not last,that it will change, the impending flood will demand it.
So what do we do, take no boat people, except only those over stayers who give them selves up, for classification ,not automatic right to stay here.
I Think our refugee in take should be only from over seas camps.
I do not mind the stones that will be thrown at me,even my party but consider what in your view MOST AUSTRALIANS want.

""What would you do,""
i would let anyone who can pay the rent live here

""what is best for this country.""
lockup criminals who do the hurtfull vile things
and tax criminals not smokers

"'I think migration should be on a needs basis""
so do those who pay slave wages
who wont pay decent pay

when does your need
beat their greed?

"those who will add to our country""
are those who work for notrhing
to make the task-master..[boss] rich

''add to 'country'..''and do well here''
who catch on to cheap imported workforces
""should get preference.""

who measures what is doing 'well'

""the Church we should not promote
more children by paying parents to have them.""

yes darn unionists
should be sterilised at birth

and single mothers should be ]
locked up in poor/work houses

""in the name of productivity""
now theres a song to rally the working serfs

""keep politics out of it"""
thats kind of hard..bells

most those despotic regemes
getting turfed..out of their comfortable dictatorships
they need new homes..need new countries..
need new sheeple[peasents]..to fleece/exploit

""I Think our refugee intake
should be only from over seas camps.""

yes em[pty your [prisons
we need more convicts

send us your despots
send us your rejects

""consider what in your view MOST AUSTRALIANS want.""
they simply want a joke a smoke a poke and a drink
dont make them think

thats what we got prostitutes
[oops sorry]..polititions police jailers and unionists for

Well did not take long for politics to invade.
My old mate One Under God you have little confidence in anything.
Your world is not the one we you included live in
If they can pay the rent, in the only possible out come from such a policy,is we put our country up for sale!

""consider what in your view MOST AUSTRALIANS want.""
"they simply want a joke a smoke a poke and a drink
dont make them think"

Add to that a kick where the sun don’t shine.

Is Aussie for sale? Maybe just for rent like all lands are.

I see many important issues that must take priority, you know, the old 'charity starts at home' stuff.

I see pensioners who can't afford to watch TV and have the air con on at the same time.

I see kids on the street, not wanting to work and, by simply knowing what strings to pull can remain on welfare for prolonged periods.

I see a depleting tax revenue source that, if not addressed, and sooner rather than latter, we may well be in very poor shape come the next decade or so.

I see (governments) resorting to selling off assets, even know we already know privatisation has failed in most cases.

I see kids having kids because they get paid to, while working mothers have to think twice as to whether or not the cost of child care is worth the gain employment brings.

The last thing we need as a nation is passengers. Whether or not they are born here is irrelevant.

So no objections from me belly, I am with you on this one mate.

belly weould look at a bigger picture
thing is we are all human
the whole earth belongs TO ALL OF US

we have been divided and exploited
by those needing a captive/workers
forced to work for whatever dic-traiter has the biggest stick..prison

but mate..if you can pay the rent
if you can afford to live
wherever..the hell you chose to live

who is to say go?

listen clubber
how would it be mate..if you could get a worker
to work for two bucks an hour..[your heaven mate]

well sack govts
let those who will work for penies
work..

wherever they can..pay their own way

if you havnt got the bucks to live on broadway
go away..live where you can afford living

govt isnt there..to help its people..anyhow
few still believe..govt to be 'helping them'

ok belly your maybe one of very few

govts are there..to keep their exclusive franchise
rule their 'hood'..be kings..of their own fiefdom

by what right..are 'kings'/kings
and royals..oh so regal
only by traditional decietes

they are the king..
..cause they sent bill collecters/troops in
to demand the peons pay the rent..used force
to force the peons..to pay or get out

its a global protection racquett
and now..govts dont even protect

get rid of parties/govts/unions

*let capitalists rule

when they say pay the rent
it pay..or go elsewhere

get real..about what govt was supposed to be
and force govt..to be what money says..it's..*allowed to be

let govt pay its own way
if you paid the rent
you can live here

break the law
and you..go to jail

then get bannished
we got too many leeches in govt as it is

I do not think New Zealand is much different Jewerly and OUG the world never was or will be one.
Can this dry country continue to grow forever.
My answer no, we do not have the water or the arable land.
Is open door acceptance of refugees in this country's best interests.
Both party's in the long run let more boat people in than they returned.
My view NO and watch the arrivals grow not shrink as food crisis grows.
Is it wise to let some who do not find work for years come as migrants or refugees?
At what cost to our welfare system.
Why do we, and we are you know,sending Irish South African and great Britain 457 workers with skills we need home.
If we can drop the bleeding heart cuddle a poor man thing, how much are we paying in Social welfare to recent or past refugees?
Could you, me anyone be a refugee on the Continent most are coming from?
With welfare and right to practice your religion?
Be honest now.

Belly,

I dont see how you can divorce a population discussion from politics.

There is evidence to suggest that the world's human population would be stable were contraception made accessible to all who wanted it. No coercion, just people having a choice.

Governments, in contrast, seem obsessed with growing populations. In poorly developed nations a ready supply of slaves is created by denying the population access to contraception. In developed nations governments cannot deny contraception, so instead engage in immigration and a hard sell of the great need for population growth.

In essence, population growth is due to government policy.

Bellybabe:”I do not think New Zealand is much different”

Different from what?

“Earth has approximately 6,910,000,000 human inhabitants as of April 25, 2011. Projections indicate that the world's human population will reach 7 billion in early 2012 and 9.2 billion in 2050. Most of the growth is expected to take place in developing nations. Human population density varies widely around the world, but a majority live in Asia. By 2020, 60% of the world's population is expected to be living in urban, rather than rural, areas. “

NZ pop: _4,315,800. Land size km2: _,270,534. Arable land 5.54%
Oz Pop: 22,702,576. Land size km2: 7,682,300. Arable land 6.15%

What I don’t get is the permanent crop things between NZ and Oz; NZ: 18,547 km2 permanent crops and Oz: 3,047 km2 permanent crop. Typo you reckon?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_use_statistics_by_country
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth#Natural_resources_and_land_use

“Can this dry country continue to grow forever.”

I think your green bits are actually quite big. I read a lot awhile ago about how many Aussies don’t think so – some collective conscious thing about the ‘red centre’.

“At what cost to our welfare system.”

No idea but I’ve seen many examples of where millions upon millions continue to be wasted. Really seems to be about better management here.

“Could you, me anyone be a refugee on the Continent most are coming from?”

The question would be if we had to there would be no choice but to do it or shrivel up and die. Besides most of them go to Pakistan and I didn’t think that was much of a tourist spot.

“With welfare and right to practice your religion?”

I’m going to invent my own religion and Aussie better well support my right to practice it within the law and the only good laws are ones that are not created for the benefit of any religions.

I am a bit surprised that Ludwig has not posted yet.

Three subjects here that each could take up a page, so where to start with an abreviated opinion.I take it that we are talking about Aus.

Population: It is high time we forced the political parties to put forward their policies on population. We should have some idea as to where we are going and what each party sees as a goal.

I don't know if we can have a sustainable population. Have a look in the markets now and see just how much food we import. Should not have to, but we do. Try to find our tinned fruit (there is a couple) or our tinned ham. I know of butchers that import vacume packed beef (rumps and loins) from NZ.

Immigration: We should reduce immigration to net zero, so about the same numbers come as go. Our infastructure cannot keep up. It is not only water but everything. Our cities are choking on cars and public transport is a joke. Immigration has pushed up the price of homes and the price of building blocks is prohibative.

If we need skilled labour, we should train our own. What right have we to poach the skilled from other countries that need them more than we do. Immigration is a cheap way out for business to get workers.

Refugees: Stop the boats as was done previously, by not giving any permanent residence or at least deny them the right to bring out the rest of their family. If they don't get what they want they will stop coming. Where is the humanity in encouraging 200 to drown enroute.

These people are illegal entrants. We do not detain those that enter legally. They are frauds and con artists who get here by deceit and then deceive us. Honest people come in the front, not jump the back fence. If they had a decent case they would come legally and not pay smugglers far more than the air fare. The boat people are shonksters.

Yes Banjo I would like to see Ludwig post,he is not fond of me but understands this subject.
Let me explain ,I think your and others views it can not be isolated from politics is true.
But am convinced it will become a very big issue world wide, and soon politicians will talk about it.
And that we all, should say what we think, the debate is being controlled by minority's.
Very vocal ones.
Here I go,racism again, ask our extreme Lefty's,
Newspaper story this morning, a young Muslim movie star has in Germany her home, been a centerfold for play boy.
Germany has a fairly big population of Muslims.
And a recent history of honor killings.;
This young woman, proud of her, said she did it to break away from a life of confinement, and has been threatened with?
DEATH.
We are not to talk of this not to express concerns not to ask how many generations will it take if ever, for our cultures to mix.
Why is it wrong to be afraid,to ask why us, why increase population so fast.
And industries say, probably if we look at the whole world and its migrant workers,they need them
OK probably true, but at what point do we protect our future?
Jewerly just referring to your kick up the you know what for us.
And mate! if only! if only no religions existed.
What a great place the world could be, if humanity could be one without superstitions crafted to keep us apart and uninformed.

The population of Australia as could indeed any country's, could get a lot bigger. What doesn't get bigger is the quality of life that comes with bigger population. I say let the idiot growth proponents go to Bangladesh or India or any other densely populated place & let them live their dream of exploiting the masses there. Minimum stay 10 years then they can come back again. You never know it might open up a whole new fashion industry for hiding the tail between the legs.
As far as refugees are concerned we'd be much better off to send them wheel barrows & shovels etc so that they can make things better for themselves rather than making things worse for the country which is forced to take them in.

“If they had a decent case they would come legally and not pay smugglers far more than the air fare. The boat people are shonksters.”

Why did they leave their homes if there was no need to?

Is Yabby about? Do we really have only have 3,047 km2 permanent crops here?

Emigration by Australian-born
“In 2009–10, 42 570 Australia-born people departed permanently. This figure includes the Australia-born children of former settlers.
Overwhelmingly, the Australia-born are emigrating to the United Kingdom, the United States or to New Zealand. In 2009–10, 46.3 per cent of Australian-born emigrants went to one of these three countries. The next most popular destinations were Singapore (9.1 per cent), the United Arab Emirates (6.3 per cent) and Hong Kong SAR (5.2 per cent).”
http://www.immi.gov.au/media/fact-sheets/05emigration.htm

Fact Sheet – Permanent Arrivals and Departures from Australia, 1979–80 to 2008–09
http://www.immi.gov.au/media/fact-sheets/05emigration_1.htm

Yep of course NZ does need a boot in the pants, most countries do. I hope the Aussies that have left here have found homes where people aren’t screaming for them to get out and stop ruining their way of life.

Belly babe:“What a great place the world could be, if humanity could be one without superstitions crafted to keep us apart and uninformed.”

For sure.

Hello Banjo and Belly

Thanks for thinking of me.

<< …he is not fond of me… >>

Belly! It is not true. You’ve said that before and I’ve said this before – I consider you to be a good OLO mate. I’ll go further – I really admire your passion for OLO and for getting involved in all manner of discussions, even when some respondents are pretty damn rude. Good on you. It is wonderful!

While it is really good to see this sort of subject discussed a lot on OLO, I do get awfully tired of it and of basically repeating myself all the time! (:>/

But now that you have my attention I will respond….. later.

Not that I would change it but we are in deed a weird mob us Aussies.
Some talk of the need to grow, industry/ workforce/ population
And hurl insults at me for asking that welfare reform put people in jobs, then say we need more 457 visas.
Now we do, but why not put ours to work too/first.
I live in a 1970,s then executive home fibro not brick,rebuilt tin roof and all, in 5 bedrooms 11 rooms in all.
Why? it was cheaper than the two bedroom new one, why do we build so big so close and so badly?
Greed has its way, population growth see,s more land developed more homes sold more cash but a far worse country.
My block, just a bit, not much ,bigger than a city one,is full of trees plants and jungle like ,because I like a garden/want to help the environment.
But if ten more family's came to my village sewage would flow in to our river.
Some see only their lifetime a matter to be concerned about, I planted one tree I will never see grow to its potential but know without an Axe or chain saw it will be home to birds in a century.
Plan for the planets future its rewarding.

Jewely,
You said "Why did they leave their homes if there was no need to?"

The illegal entrants leave their homes for the same reasons legitimate immigrants do. Economic benefit.

Once here with permanent residence status they can then bring the rest of family here by 747. It is no coincidence that the majority of 'illegals' are young men.

If the dangers are so great at home, why would one leave a wife and family there while you shoot through to safety

Hey there Banjo, what you doing with your weekend? I’m thinking about smacking Grim around for the Kiwi joke that turned up in my in-box from his site.

“The illegal entrants leave their homes for the same reasons legitimate immigrants do. Economic benefit.”

But if their own countries were trucking along okay they would prefer not to I guess.

“If the dangers are so great at home, why would one leave a wife and family there while you shoot through to safety”

Maybe wife and family weren’t targets or they would survive until they can be sent for. I dunno I bet there are 1000’s of different stories.

Illegal entrants sneak in and if not for good cause they get sent home if caught? Then we have the asylum seekers who again get sent back. Then there are immigrants who pay for themselves and are simply moving here.

Everyone seems to get thrown in the same basket.

Belly babe your village must have some resourceful people who can sort a sewage problem.

Belly, addressing your opening post:

<< Try to talk about these matters of concern without involving politics. >>

I don’t think that’s possible, because politics is largely responsible for our utterly insane continuous growth paradigm! While we may be able to achieve a large majority of support within the Australian populace for population stabilisation, much lower immigration and policies geared towards real sustainability, getting our government, or the opposition, or Greens, to act on that is another thing entirely.

So politics is intimately and vitally connected.

Of course it should be connected, as this really is just about the most important stuff of all when it comes to good governance and management of the country. But gravely, our political system and entrenched dinosaur parties, which are much more like two peas in a pod than opposition forces, act as huge encumbrances to the development of vital population stabilisation and sustainability policies.

<< I think migration should be on a needs basis >>

I’d say: needs and humanitarianism. Only essential needs, to the tune of no more than 5000 arrivals (skilled people and their families) per annum, and refugees to about twice the current intake, say about 25 000 per annum.

This would still give us a significant immigration program, about equal to emigration, which would supply the most neeeded skills, increase our humanitarian effort, and allow us to stabilise our population and achieve a sustainable society.

continued

<< So what do we do, take no boat people >>

We implement strong disincentives for onshore asylum seekers, including temporary protection visas, mandatory detention and offshore processing. Howard was on the right track with all of this sort of stuff. That’s what we need to get back to, so that the rate of arrivals will fall right away to a trickle.

We cannot afford to have a non-detention, quick-processing, permanent-residence-when-accepted-as-refugees policy, as this would just promulgate and increase the pull factors, resulting in a greater rate of arrivals with no end to it.

There’s a much better way to help refugees / asylum seekers. Boost our intake as part of our formal immigration program and boost our humanitarian aid effort.

<< I Think our refugee in take should be only from over seas camps. >>

And from countries where we don’t have Australian humanitarian programs, if they are deemed to be of the highest priority.

I think that you are very much on the right track here Belly.

I will tell you about migration jewerly but note you too migrated.
Now as the eldest of my siblings it was clear I had to work.
9 tenths of my wages went to feed them.
My bush job went, Dad and mum gave me one days notice I was to get on an old steam train [the Cooma mail]and live in a city with my aunt.
Starting work the next day,separated at 15 from my family I made it,set the ground for the next migrant my brother.
But we said no keep family together, we all went.
For what reasons? a better life financial gain.
We fitted in same people just wore boots instead of shoes.
We went back to the bush with skills and money.
Overlook it if you must,call me racist, say I act shamefully, but I question the introduction of a culture that is alien to my way of life.
I understand but don't agree with politicians trying to please every one,the idea we should blend and become one big country shoulder to shoulder like one big city.
Politics is driven by growth,in power any party will pander to business wishes for more productivity/workers /consumers but that race dehumanizes us all.
Do not look for a greener Australia it never will exist population out of control makes for less green not more.

<Politics is driven by growth,in power any party will pander to business wishes for more productivity/workers /consumers but that race dehumanizes us all.>

I disagree, Belly. Look at the slums of India: You will observe people working hard for a few cents an hour, child workers, squalor and stench, congestion, and a lack of services. The population is certainly constrained by a lack of resources, but to argue that this is dehumanising is like arguing that a lack of consumption makes you a greenie.

We would live just like those Indian slaves were it not for the infrastructure and education that founds our civilisation. So what is the per capita cost of the education and infrastructure for the Australian lifestyle?

I think that there needs to be an analysis of the cost of population growth. All too often I see growth proponents ignoring this constraint.

hey fester
do you even read what you wrote

lol

''Look at the slums of India:
You will observe people working hard*
for a few cents an hour,..child workers,..squalor and stench,""

yes stench..a great encouragment
to work harder for your dole

the bilklionairs exploiting poverty
[as bad as monsanto and its collusion with money lenders
to send the cotton farmers broke..with egsorbitant intrest rates

30,000 dead gmo cotten farmers
only means heaps of farmland for a rich money lender to build a new estate

but back to your preferd working conditions

'stench.. congestion, working for pennies
and a lack of services.'

yes your chosing your own future hell mate
festering sores might'nt bother someone called fester

""The population is certainly constrained
by a lack of resources, but to argue that this is dehumanising is like arguing that a lack of consumption makes you a greenie.""

lol
your so blind son
but even a dead clock can be right twice a day

""We would live just like those Indian slaves""'

lol if it wernt for those like belly

""were it not for the infrastructure
and education that founds our civilisation.""

payed for by the working class
paying tax as they earn wages

when govt legislated for tax on income
WAGES arnt income..but the education system dont teach us any different

bosses get income
[income means proffits made from no value input
ie a boss reaping in his income into his tax free family trust

""So what is the per capita cost of the education
and infrastructure for the Australian lifestyle?""

do we include the cost of building school halls
or selling off publuic infastructure
for private 'income' for the elites?

I think that there needs to be an analysis of the cost of population growth. All too often I see growth proponents ignoring this constraint.

Belly:”Overlook it if you must,call me racist, say I act shamefully, but I question the introduction of a culture that is alien to my way of life.”

But that has never stopped happening in Aussie or any other country in the world, constant shift and change of populations and the introduction of new culture either aggressively or passively along with new and different ways of doing things.

The overwhelming opinion I’ve understood here on OLO from many that got to Aussie earlier seems to be one of fear, dislike, intolerance and a huge unwillingness to accommodate anyone new or even newly born here if of an unfamiliar culture.

It’s all good, your country, your opinion etc. I’m not overly sensitive to this stuff online having experienced it off-screen with a lot more hostility. I never got my questions answered so I’m going to go do some googling and see if I can work out this underuse of arable land thing here.

We get a bit lost here Jewerly, I have never been racially vilified by a kiwi ,any color.
And disagree firmly with that constant change stuff.
My target is clear people from country's that share Muslim culture and religion SOME OF THEM.
within months telling us we are unacceptable.
Hate me for it but I have trouble telling the good from the bad Muslims, it is my belief as a not believer in ANY RELIGION we must not cede our freedoms to be as we are.
And I will not hide from my view, try living in some parts of my country and you may share my views.
Now how did my Friend above find support for growing population from me in this thread I started.
My comment recorded my views more want more people, for personal gains than put our country first.
Is it wrong? to say while the western world is leaving in large number its religions behind one is growing in power and influence?
And that some times that influence is purely dreadful, then put me in the bigots bin.

oug

I question Belly's suggestion that overpopulation dehumanises people. I think that material wealth and compassion are separate entities, although it is obvious that greater material wealth allows one to be more compassionate if he so chooses.

Do you think that Australia would offer a better standard of living than the average Indian or Philippino were our population 10 times what it is today? I think that policy should be geared toward improving living standards, not propping up the sales for shoddy property developments or satisfying the self harming perversions of guilt stricken lefties.

Fester sorry but I am lost trying to work out want you are saying.
I believe a race driven only by money such as population growth and productivity is both folly,and takes the reasoning out of humanity.
To even consider joining those country's that give us our boat refugees, poor living standards and too many people, is silly.
Why must we over populate.
If the reason is defense the world is destroying its self.
If it is productivity to generate wealth what then, say after we run out of Iron and coal.
How many of us actually come in to contact with refuges.
How many of them spend near life times on our welfare.
Is self preservative still a human thing of benefit or do we not say enough.
Jewerly looks on maps for a green Australia.
I have seen it in my head lights and by walking over it, green today brown ,very brown tomorrow.
4 years ago people in the upper Hunter saw house dams run dry shot house cows and horses, washed in mud.
My village will not get sewage this century, too few houses to pay the cost and we must have more homes, that are not allowed without sewage to have sewage!
I wobble because while my recycle system is fine my neighbors floods my yard and my foot is poisoned.
Life out side the city's has reality's others do not and more people only magnifies them.

Belly

I dont support the concept of rapid population growth, if that helps. The high government debt in Australia is testament to the folly of that option. But I disagree with you that Australia would be dehumanised were her population much greater. Yes, there might be less to help the needy in society, but would that make us less human?

<Why must we over populate.>

I think that all people should have access to contraception if they want it. Were this the case the world's population would be stable, not growing. It is government policy that is responsible for the growing population, and this I am opposed to.

From 1999:

http://www.ruralplanning.com.au/library/papers/rapinat99.pdf

CONCLUSION

Australia’s agricultural land is a finite resource. The good land is located on the coastal fringe of the continent. This is where the population growth is occurring. The growth of population is coming into conflict with the agricultural practices, which is causing them to relocate. There is a need to manage the growth of our towns and cities so that we can achieve a balance between horizontal and vertical growth. We also need to recognise the importance of our agricultural land. There are various methods use for the preservation of agricultural land in use throughout the world. They should be evaluated and discussed to ascertain the benefits of using them for the Australian situation. There is a need to act now. If we do we can achieve the balance and be sustainable by growing food as well as growing houses. If we don’t we run the risk of loosing the good agricultural land and instead of rural Australia we will have rural residential Australia.

Map I stared at for awhile today:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Australia-climate-map_MJC01.png

Jewely, the idea of "protecting" good agricultural land is a bit of a bad joke today.

Apart from industrial style farming, it is just not worth doing. Even Asian immigrants, who have always dreamed of their own small crop farm, find the the dream turns very sour in Oz. The old market garden type operation is no longer viable.

I am secretary of the irrigation committee for a near Brisbane rural area. In what I consider "useful" agriculture we have just one old dairy farmer, who is too set in his ways to stop. All the other food producers have given up, sick of subsidising the public's food.

We now have a few turf farmers, people supplying the nursery industry, some supplying "green chop" to the feed lots, others supplying green feed or lucerne to the horse racing or equestrian industry, even some florist suppliers, but no one grows food, or anything that we can't easily do without.

You can't even make a living raising beef, the rates on a big enough block are too high to allow that.

I did OK doing nothing more useful than grow advanced shrubs for instant gardens on the Gold Coast, or Ipswich.

Why should some 65 years old broken down farmer have to sit on his land living on less than the pension, [for which he is not eligible], instead of selling it to the highest bidder, & retiring in the comfort every public servant expects.

God I am sick of planners, & others, with little idea of which way is up, wanting to dictate to others.

If you want to "save" the farm land, what you have to do is find a way of paying a reasonable return to the farmers for their efforts.

I beleive that the only people that a growing population serves is the big boys at the top as it provides them with an ever growing consumer base so they can make bigger and bigger profits. Meanwhile, the rest of us are paying the price.

Our population is at best about right, at worst, too high. What we do need is a better way to distribute the wealth we have in this country - cut all subsidies to big business, reform the welfare system (at the very least scrap the baby bonus), reform the tax system, improve our education system... I could go on but there is too much to do...

We should have zero net migration with a balance which accepts a reasonable percentage of refugees however they arrive. There is a great mistrust of islamic refugees at present but i would wager that just reflects the political situations in their home countries (just as there were greater numbers of asian refugees in the wake of upheavals of the 1980's).

I dont agree with that there is a fair way to guage, as Belly said, 'those who will add to our country and do well here' - that seems to just be code for a return to the White Australia Policy. We need to be open minded about the potential of every human. We need to remember that in the 50's - 60's people had a similar concern about Italian and Greek migrants that they now hold about Islamic ones - it all sorts itself out within a generation or two.

But before we can make progress on the population issue we need more people to start to recognise the failues of capitalism and the failure of our democracy to represent the great majority of the Australian people becuase they answer only to thier masters, big business.

Hasbeen, why do you think that is? Is it a result of the Coles/Woolies duopoly keeping the prices down? Or is it simply a reflection that the average consumer's cost of living is so high they can't pay the prices that would make it viable for farmers? Are there viable local distribution networks, or have these been subsumed into the push towards "super" markets. What do you think we could be doing to address the issues that you raised?

I am 65 years old,as an 11 year old worked in market gardens, we had plenty.
We still have a few ,off to a market day today and produce from some are on sale.
Pitt Street farmers,the well off hobby farmers will push products grown on land once farmed.
Now too expensive to do that with.
They and the mac mansions being built on our best farming lands killed farming around here.
But Hasbeen that is a problem, your idea let them sell, make a quick shilling and take it easy.
What of the long term future.
Hobby farmers come and go, strange beasts in paddocks that once had cows waiting to be milked.
Funny hats and people.
Then a sale happens and the long haired goats become Lamas and new people with new dreams waiting to be broken move in ,for a while.
Any answer to world population must include what land is productive.
My market day this morning will see well dressed hobby farmers offer me olive oil at 3 times the price their product, yes very same from their farms costs at the big shops.

“Apart from industrial style farming, it is just not worth doing. Even Asian immigrants, who have always dreamed of their own small crop farm, find the the dream turns very sour in Oz. The old market garden type operation is no longer viable.”

What’s gone wrong? Saoirse covered the questions.

“…In what I consider "useful" agriculture we have just one old dairy farmer, who is too set in his ways to stop. All the other food producers have given up, sick of subsidising the public's food.”

So this Oz Land size of 7,682,300 km2 with 6.15% arable land and only 3,047 km2 permanent crop is probably correct? Why is there not more even in industrial style farming?

jewely,
Don't know if you have had a chance to travel west since you arrived here, but you should do so and you will get some idea of the vast ammount of non arable land. But you also may need to get a map showing the rainfall in various areas and overlay that onto the arable land map.

A few years ago i drove to WA for a wedding and was amazed just how far west the SA farmers had wheat crops and how far east the WA farmers grew wheat. I asked about this and was told they direct sow it without plowing and get a viable crop once each 9 years. Now that is a big gamble, and most people say farmers are conservities.

Point is there are vast ammounts of land where rainfall is most unreliable for agriculture. Compare that to the rainfall in NZ or Europe and you will see the difference. You could also compare stocking rates to that of NZ and Europe, to understand how unproductive much of our land is.

Sorry i do not have the figures at hand.

As a retired grazier, i nearly cry tears of blood when I see all that good productive land, on the East, being covered with houses and bitumen/concrete. We are taking lots of our most productive land out of production, forever. Not very smart is it?

From the central coast of NSW to the north coast two industry's went hand in hand with settlement.
Diary farming and timber getting, the much sought after Ceder the driver.
Diary was not the huge thing it became, in the hills around here you can find still the remnants of single family dairy's in the roughest but greenest country.
One memorable one, not alone produced only cream, and only part of one tin, it was carried out on a youths back.
100,S lived that way.
Australia's meat exports started here.
Cracker cows and black baldys after, both a product or by product of the dairy industry started the American hamburger trade.
Those farms are now largely hobby farms or much bigger beef producers.
Homes built for retiring business couples too sit on that, our best land.
It is a dream, to think population growth can be anything other than harmful if it is to be as big as politicians,all of them want.
A farmer understands much some never will.
Population control is every day on the farm, breeding on good farms comes from the best, from years of planning a line you want to develop a better beast.
Over populating a paddock can kill it for years.
I still shudder at the sight of small farmers at local sales buying ,for breeding, the worse and roughest cows of mixed and confused parentage to cross with bulls even more remote from good stock.
Maybe this world can, one day take a globule view of population.
IF we could only get religion out of the way.
We could plan as one people, take control of birth rates and population growth even refugees, in the best interests of the planet.

im still reluctant to contribute to a 'think'..tank
that has its mind made up

there is a ton of perfectly good land norther eastern australia
trouble being mono-cropping hates mountains...loves govt subsidy to build railways etc

but less than an hour south of brisbane
lies enough ex dairy land to grow all the food we could ever need

its mostly fast returning to the forrest it was pre dairy

its strange..to many but even in india
there are areas people havnt been..let alone tried to grow food

im angry that people have this delusion there are too many of us
any fool can see hundreds of virtually unused land..even in great briton..at best growing shep or as sporting fiefdoms

lest we forget the eu gives HUGE subsidies
for its farmers to NOT grow food

then we got the vast untapped oceans..seas

i have seen the future
where cattle and dairy is done in highrise buildings
fed on sprouted grains...[eating the whole sprouted limp
roots and all

and then growing hydroponic suplies in the middle of huge former..office space's in huge cities

and still we got know nothings saying no
no land...multicropping is the answer

mono cropping is our only
real...and ever present danger
and them big wigs in the genocide em all think tanks

small minded bigots
with even smaler visions
just like the religious zealot

thats our only real problem
the only real danger..

[small thinking..
thinking big is best]

the sooner their sick ideas..and perverted thinking ends
the better for the rest of the world...a pox on all their houses

the poor have allways been hungry
but the rich have allways been sick

voicing their fear
dont make their fears any more real

on our standard quater acre enough food can grow
to feed a family of ten..[even got town water allrady laid on]

harvest the rain
and the think tank is out of business

gone
good riddance

Yes Belly, we have a few who grow stuff for markets, but it is just a hobby/pin money effort. The money they earn is not to great. Some nurseries & wholesalers supplement their income with market work, basically because they aren't making a living without it.

When I had a good lot of 1.5 meter Hibiscus flowering, & perhaps 40 or so flowering daylilies, I would go to some markets, but there's not much profit in it.

Mate I will not accept any requirement on individual farmers, or anyone else for that matter, to protect anything for the "community". If the community wants something, it is up to everyone to pay, not the individual.

One mate of mine, before the drought was debt free, & his 1600 acres farm near Dolby was worth about $1,600,000 after 30 years of working 7 days a week, & acquiring land, when ever he could.

After 4 years of drought he owed the bank $600,000 in losses, & his farm was then worth only $850,000, if any buyer could be found. He also owed $150,000 in seed, fertilizer & chemical bills.

If he had not got the 1.5" thunderstorm that saved the 200 acres of cotton he had in the ground, he would now be a welfare case as are many of his old neighbours. At 65 he was a bit old to start again.

Farming is a mugs game, & certainly no bed of roses.

Yes Saoirse, I think the big 2 have a lot to do with it. They can buy cheep, locally, & over seas, & squeeze out the little bloke. They are aided by credit card shopping, where it is convenient to buy everything at one shop, rather than spread it about.

Have a look at the amount of fresh produce coming out of the big 2, compared to that coming out of the green grocer, if any, in the same complex.

In my youth families spent their income 30% on housing, 30% food, 30% living costs & 10% entertainment sport etc.

Today almost 50% goes on housing, with a large percentage on in home & other entertainment. Food is well down the list. I do it myself. I am horrified at how much I have to pay for a peach, or a few cherries, until I think of how much effort went into producing them, & delivering them to me.

The market system is breaking down. The third time I got a bill for cartage & handling my fruit, rather than a check, for the superior fruit it was I gave up on my small orchard as a dead loss.

I look after one mulberry an apricot, an apple & a lemon now. The rest go to the parakeets, the fruit fly, & the horses.

When you can get $800 to $1000 a week labouring for a plasterer fixing up flood damage in Brisbane, why would you work 7 days a week 52 weeks a year for half that.

We will have to pay productive people more, & guarantee them a decent retirement, or they will all go pushing pens in some government department, or head for the mines. Wouldn't you?

Farming is a great way of life if you don't have to earn your living from it. Like a Dr. or lawyer,you can swan around and go to the picnic races and polo, etc. and play other weekends, time off to go sking. I've seen them say to the staff, shearing starts Monday, but I have to go to the polo on sunday so you muster the sheep and prepare everything. No mention of extra pay or time off to compensate.

Different story if one is the owner/operator, You are the one that has to do the work, no matter what, and for little return in most cases.

Oug,
You have to be joking. An hour south of Brisbane is about the border of NSW and the area you would be speaking of would be small, between the coast and the divide. Farmers are enterprising people, so if there is land there that they can buy and make money on, they would be on to that seeing it is not far from a big market place. Further west of Brisbane is the Darling Downs, which is extensively farmed now.

Hasbeen has it right and Belly knows too. The land is valued by the government as building blocks and farmers are forced off their land by rate increases and other costs and restrictions. Farmers would not try growing crops in marginal areas if they could viably do their thing in reliable areas, in terms of rainfall and good land.

If you see land that may appear under utilised, there is a good reason that can be found if you look for it.

We import too much food now and it is time we put a stop to large scale immigration.

OUG you weary me brother,your thoughts and ideas are often out there.
A very long way from mainstream, and I find the bigot bit ofensive.
If we understand man has got to this place,with help from beleiving in your God but alone.
Add to that the itermingling of other Gods and culutures,fire and water cultures we must agree,population is going to kill us.
Now hasbeen, I too made a living out of Nuserys and plants, been around,know that market days are often the cash in hand for every nursery.
And never ever said some should hang onto their land for others best interests.
I did highlight others best interests are wining not the way you said but good farms are being murdered.
Food prices are bad,but we make it so,each of us could,as I do,grow fruit and food, just gave a family a full bucket of mandarins .
Later it will be beans peas turnips carrots sweet potatoes and last years pumpkins.
bit more out there and two thirds will be given for free an hour a day is all it takes.
Must admit nursery's are doing it hard,people are not gardening.
I buy plants that would be 12 dollars in the tin shed from the growers 5 for ten bucks,they say its better for them.
Day Lilly yes you got me there,want every color I can grow here, my garden is a gift to my dead parents.
every one has the right to profit and I do not bargain pay what is asked but seems like giving it away to me.

Well this started as a think tank on population but is turning into one on agriculture but that's a worthy topic too (and probably a precondition to a population discussion).

But what saddens me is that there is a strong sense in the posts that it's too late - that there's no going back for agriculture in Australia.

Does globalism really have to be the way of the future? If it is then it doesnt matter how much of our arable land is taken up with housing, or how high our population grows, because we'll just be importing all our food anyway.

That just sounds incredibly short sighted to me - "Want to take over Australia?" Sure, all you've got to do is blockade their food supply and they'll be starving within a few months. And why - so we can enjoy relatively cheap prices for the moment and make the folks at Coles & Woolies multi-billionaires. What about when our suppliers realise that we are completely reliant on them to feed our population - how high do you think they are going to raise the prices then!

Honestly, until reading this topic i hadnt given a second thought to agriculture, now you've got me extremely worried. This world is just insane.

I can hardly tell a spud from a grape but it is clear to me that if we don't curb immigration we'll be in serous trouble with food production. Have little population growth from within with new babies yes, by all means, but not with sudden population boost bursts starting with 30 year old males who can not or will not accept us.
If those who run away from their own problems at home, which they probably had part in creating anyway, then what citizens will they be here ? I say, help these countries of the refugee factories & supply them with tools for building & agriculture to build up their countries so they only have to leave them for a holiday like most working people do. If we can stoop so low as to sending our young people to risk their life in those problem places then the least I expect their young people to do is to fight for their own land. Australia could pay them slightly above their local pay rate & we'll see very soon what the real reasons are for coming here in boats.

Belly, if you like daylily colour, try breading your own. It really is very easy, much easier than any other breading I have done, plant or beast.

The only problem I have is native bees. I have a very large hive in my windbreak around the house paddock, & they are so quick all the pollen is gone just after first light. To beat them I have to cover the buds of the ones I want pollen from, that should open tomorrow, each night, if I am to get any.

The genetics seem to be much mixed, as the seeds from one seed pod from one pollination of one flower will often give a dozen different coloured plants when grown.

It really is interesting, but I can't yet predict what any mix of pollen & flower will produce.

You have to give the seeds a month to 6 weeks in the fridge to get high germination rates, but compared to hibiscus for example, it's childes play. Best of all, they flower so young, you know what you have, without waiting years.

Thanks will do hasbeen have about 40 but want much more , bees natives are the only ones around this year.
Back on thread, lets for a few minutes for get our biases on refugees and population growth.
Look at India and Pakistan,Afghanistan and all those over populated country's.
Only the hardest hearted of us would not openly cry at the life some lead there.
Kids starving elderly too sickness and poverty.
Tell me I am racist but why are they over populated.
Some say we need the children to help us in old age others in case some die,religion tells them to breed more.
if no religion existed we could Begin to control population.
If people got life education in stead of religion understanding would come.
I doubt we can stop ever increasing numbers of refugees worldwide but unless we think in terms of our country first we are going to kill our country.

Hey chaps,what do you think regarding the South African family who got gunned down in Australia? How ironic. They wanted to escape the hi murder rate in their country only to be murdered in 'crime free' country. How sad. May their souls rest in peace.
www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/Australia-still-safer-says-SA-expat-after-murders-20110501

so this is how think tanks work

lol

i put out 7 ideas...one gets put down
then belly drops in his boot

banjo...im talking more about the area
arround nimbin/lismore/byron...and yes the l;and is more priced for future land division...but nothing like the millions most farmers think in

the trick isnt to wholesale
the money is in retail

no farmer can make money selling
his apples for 35 cents a kilo
but its even worse for the backpackers picking it

what i tell backpackers is get ya pay in what your picking
if the farmer says you earned 50 buck..or 100 bucks..
take it in the produce..come back to the suburbs and sell it dor to door for buck fifty a kg

those who cant make a living on a farm are imply not thinking
[i met a bloke who just grew those food additives weeds][herbs]
he was making 200.000 a year...on quater of an acre

we see fruit growers making other product..from their fruit
like gra[pes make sultana's..or dried peaches...or just use ya mind..think..[got milk make cheeze]]

ever heard of permaculture..its basiclly growing food in compost
wether the compost is made from old phone books or straw

ya grow a few different fruits...vegies..even buy a few cases of vegies on the way to market..a huge bag of spud's..then sell to the new agers at farmers marketts

the absurdity of we will starve
or belicose..saying..[TO THE AFFECT]..
kill off your children..[their all going to die anyhow]..

it is just plain nuts
im quitting this think tank
that pretends to want solutions
but in reality is just easing us into killing off the future

small thinking
comes from small minds

if we got too much food..where would the dooms day
think tank bwankers be..with their beatups and fears

no where
so stop feeding them all your good ideas
dont partake in 'surveys'..let their dead head thinking die gracefully

<Tell me I am racist but why are they over populated.>

What choice do the poor of India, Bangladesh, The Philippines etc have, Belly? They dont have access to contraception, so the overpopulation is inevitable. But as a consequence they provide a ready supply of cheap and hard working laborers. Incidentally, this is of great benefit for those who could provide them with contraceptives, but who choose not to.

But dont take my word for it, Belly.

http://ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=55231

<Former U.S. Agency for International Development (AID) official J. Joseph Speidel notes that "if you ask anthropologists who live and work with poor people at the village level...they often say that women live in fear of their next pregnancy. They just do not want to get pregnant."

The United Nations Population Fund and the Guttmacher Institute estimate that meeting the needs of these 215 million women who lack reproductive health care and effective contraception could each year prevent 53 million unwanted pregnancies, 24 million induced abortions, and 1.6 million infant deaths.>

The dreadful and tragic deaths of that family saddens us all.
But lets look at the details we know.
The killer is said to have mental health issues, we know only that.
SA is normally a safe place.
Death of a dog,that may have been poisoned or not is said to be a driver not race.
Now for Fester, so what then do we do? India is just one over populated country,far too powerful and independent to be told what to do.
This is an international problem.
We however can if we wish to change current policy's, control our migration/refugee in take.
NOT ever can we fix the world by taking more of both or one.
It would be like trying to empty the Sydney harbor with a thimble.
Do we cuddle ourselves tell ourselves how nice we are and kill our country.
Or is it just possible answers exist.
UN useless nobody's, but what if we changed it.
Set rules stopping America China and Russia propping up such as we have seen fall, make those country these folk flee, habitable and safe.
If every cent we give went to help not into the pocket of vermin, we could tax every western worker/tax payer half of one percent to stabilize those country's.
My idea at least would start fixing it, burying the west in people is only delaying mass deaths and war.

China has a one baby policy.
If we stabilize these country's, stop population movement world wide can we not at least stall growth with no more than two baby laws.
OK individual freedoms and all that, but we must do something.
Reward those who obey punish those who do not.
Harsh?
Right now this country has some very poor parents who have, then abandon children so they can buy a big screen TV.
What has the most value the future of individual rights to breed children that are unwanted in some cases
or the planets future.

OUG:“so this is how think tanks work”

I dunno I’ve never been in one before. I’m reading then shooting off to google stuff. You could say I’m thinking but in reality I am giving myself multiple headaches.

I’m trying to figure out my own existence and where it should be and why it makes a difference if I stop or return, head off to another country. I’m not going to breed (promise) and I attempt to be very green and don’t do benefits. Reverse that – I’m trying to figure out where my own existence should be and if any country in the world really wants anyone from anywhere else if they are honest about it.

But I learn a lot while busy trying to justify in my mind why I am here. And I did forward the opinion that I thought the problem with immigration was more about bad management of resources instead of lack of. So as a stranger in a strange land I reckon you should get your collective sh1t together because I quite like the sunsets.

I also thought maybe quit vaccinating and let disease naturally knock a few unhealthy ones off for a couple of decades then I thought that was probably kinda mean and considered I may be one of those unhealthy ones so that idea got binned. And what would we do without the autistic kids – they’re big business too.

Bellybabe:“Right now this country has some very poor parents who have, then abandon children so they can buy a big screen TV.”

Well that sucks, who does that… don’t they know if they keep it (the baby) they can keep getting money?

Banjo:”“Don't know if you have had a chance to travel west since you arrived here,…”

I’ve been everywhere mate. Nah I really have, took a 6 month driveabout, really liked many sunsets and decided to immigrate.

Banjo:”We are taking lots of our most productive land out of production, forever. Not very smart is it?”

Must be working for someone out there, maybe it was done to keep immigrants away?

Belly

There wouldn't be a population "problem" were people able to access contraception. There is no need for any coercion. That conclusion came from research funded by those useless nobodies at the UN. Those useless nobodies also try to encourage countries to offer their populations voluntary contraception on the basis of the improvement in living standards to be gained by adopting such a measure.

As for Australia, as Hasbeen observed, there is little to be gained from near city farming. Much better to turn those farms into shoddy housing estates. But how do you get buyers for all those shoddy houses without immigration? And because of the secretive development process the farmers still miss out on the opportunity. But it isn't just the farmers, but all land owners who miss out because of the severe restrictions on development. Best not to have much competition.

How do you change things? I would suggest by taking away the profit incentive. You do this by greatly easing the restriction on the property development process. As immigration does not seem to have any positive per capita economic impact, it follows that a profit derived from immigration can only come at another's expense. In the case of property the profits of developers are more than offset by the debt incurred to provide public infrastructure. Without the restriction, development becomes more profitable without immigration as there is no longer the associated infrastructure burden.

Jewely,
Glad to see that you have been able to have a look around Aus. But when I go, I look at the practical use of the land, not so much the sunsets. By the way the sunset colours are caused by dust in the atmosphere which means we are losing more of our precious topsoil.

The ones that benefit from us covering good land with houses, etc. are developers and councils and maybe some councilors/politicians get a bit handed under the table.

Remember the floods in Brisbane? A retired builder told me that about 40% of the houses flooded were built since 1974 and below the flood line of that year. Why would authorities allow deveopment and home building below a known flood line? I wait to see if the inquiry covers this aspect.

Jewerly first, girl hope life gets better,but you are so very wrong.
Let me tell you why I am not unhappy to be branded racist.
My parentage English/Irish /Scottish and Welsh, all from the finest convict stock.
At least 5 generations Aussie born.
I left a country village having seen from other than this country one Scotsman two Germen ex ww 2 Panzer ones.
Sent to Sydney I worked and mixed with people from every nation.
Was no more or less racist than they too were, most demanded I stop trying to learn their language.
See they said it was the duty of their people to learn mine.
My extended family inter wed and still do.
I learned more about life and living from those migrants, formed more friendships,more hope than in all my life before.
Jewerly you, the world judges me harshly, I am fearful, truly, I walk the streets of a suburb of Sydney ,every shop has a memory, the cranky Greek café owner.
Yugoslavian fish and chip shop.
Now this not small not cowardly man,faces people who do not want me there, in the streets and as a paying customer.
The School some of my mates went to burns our flag and has u tube films bragging about it.
I Think my country is in danger because some think humanity is best s served by being thrown in a mixer and letting the strongest come out in two century's.

Fester I thought about that post I like a bet on the horses, it is about numbers and likely hood.
The likely hood of the jockey wanting to win, the trainer wanting to,and the horse, then what are the rest prepared to do to stop them.
Do you ever see a world that could see your ideas put into play.
Some one among us will have a far better idea than mine, but the very rich will not be interested unless it is not a threat to them.
A world acting as one can fix this, it is simple self interest for us all.
Standing in the way of us all, is religion.
Again look at the flood, it is not yet one,said to be millions of refugees/mobile populations it will get far worse, soon.
Humanity must not think it can be fixed by importing even one percent of those suffering here, it will reduce our standard of living and introduce a massive growth in our numbers as those we let in bring every problem here.
Including massive family's.
PS jewerly you know better than me how many kids are in care but too many too many poor parents poor poor kids.

its on my list
[i should unsubscribe]
but its like watching a train wreck
[or a sunset..when there is a dust storm]

its just too revealing

we got too many people here
so its time we used them better

we have the yopung and healthy looking after the old and feeble
as well as the young made braindead from the mercury derivitive in the many vacinations we legislated..'docters'.give to the developing minds

thing is..those olf folks dont even know where they are
so lets export them caregiver jobs..and improve their quality of life

each one of those senile old farts
could pay for a village to get educated..or fed
for the annual cost of just one of their beds...

[60,000] a year.is the average cost
i rekon if their family visits[once a year]
they can get a free holiday..to the vilage caring
..for those..they no longer care for...

[submiting their condition report..for the cost of a trip]..
not sending public servants on paid trips..al in al we get more bang for our buck...

and help those poor ignorant's out with jobs..
to keep them where they are..and not here
*collecting the dole

problem fixed

no need to build prison camps
no need to kill the unborn
no need for these
think/bwanks

Banjo:”Glad to see that you have been able to have a look around Aus. But when I go, I look at the practical use of the land, not so much the sunsets. By the way the sunset colours are caused by dust in the atmosphere which means we are losing more of our precious topsoil.”

Well that just ruined sunsets for me.

Watching the floods I heard it mentioned over and over again by the older locals about how houses were in places they knew would flood and was wondering who let the houses get built. Aussie has a lot of inquiries and people demanding inquiries. Shame they don’t demand them before and not after everything goes wrong.

Hey Bellybabe I think life is okay for me. Truth be told Aussie really freaks me out, for such a warm land I strike way too many cold people. You might be right and the world has always been a big mixer waiting to see who comes out on top. Shame the way humans think, first I need convincing that western white culture is worth hanging on to – not by pointing out what is wrong with other cultures, just on its own merits. Cause overall we’re actually really horrible and make a terrible mess of things.

jewelry,
You will likely find that they did tell that the homes will flood but were ignored. Yeah, we do keep finding things that are wrong and need fixing, but behind it all this is really what we think of Aus.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZ8HcHDB_Q8&feature=related

We do have some enjoyable moments as well. I am off to our annual barby and bush dance with about 200 friends and neighbours at a district woolshed soon. Just to give you an idea of the type off music we do and dance to, here is another clip.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I9mK605r9Po&feature=related

This raises money for our local Bushfire Brigade and I will be leg weary and headsore next day. Even the young ones that say our music is rubbish, seem to have fun on the night.

Hope you enjoy.

Jewerly we spoke years ago,about the area you live in.
I told of my history working around there,playing football for a local team and know it well.
We can be stone like,and the area you once lived in is known for it, maybe you still live there, never say it here,trust me.
Now if you want community Friends and loyalty try Banjos recommendation, country towns once you bust in the door take every one who wants to be in.
My thread was not about individual migrants, in part it is about a religion that is not intent on mingling.
It was to unearth ideas we can solve a world wide issue that is about to grow so very much bigger very soon.
Sharing your lunch with the hungry kids from down the road is good for your self image but as all do not eat enough who wins?

Your music is fully rubbish Banjo but I agree with the young ones – it looks like great fun.

I didn’t mean to give the impression I haven’t had fun here. I put a lot of effort into good moments and have a ginormous capacity for happy times. But yeah overall and as I get older it becomes harder and harder to enjoy the good stuff when your mind keeps tripping you up with the bad.

That is what I reckon is happening to you OUG you’re starting to slip sideways with the stuff you know is wrong. From things done to you (like the teeth thing which I can empathise with) to knowing what an overwhelming disaster this world really is. Why people are still producing children is beyond me but it never stops me from going all stoopid and clucky around them.

Point taken Bellybabe and having grown up spending time in country towns and working/partying in one here as a 20 year old I get what you mean. If I wanted to be really happy I’d probably be parked up breeding miniature goats in the Spice Islands or I’d like to live in a great big flash campervan and just cruise about Aussie annoying the locals at every opportunity. Either one is still on the cards.

I might go watch Michael Moore’s ‘Capitalism’ again or that Glenn Close one ‘Home’. Or that combination of the two – Avatar. :)

jewely,
You say our music is rubbish, maybe, but we do have fun and meet old aquaintances. Our bands fiddler (sorry, violinist) usually gives us a burst of 'William Tell Overture' late in the evening, which is our dose of (ahem) culture, followed by 'Orange Blossom Special'. Both are classics in their class.

Beats shooting each other and blowing others up, like in some countries and that is the way I want to keep it. That is why I get involved in debates about our politics and society. I don't like what I see happening here and it is worse in other places.

Well bit past the bachelor and spinsters ball, but ready to party at my own pace.
Drinking very much less,enjoying it more type two sugar saw to that.
But gee while 60.70, and 80,s is my music CAW not far behind.
Would sleep under a barbed wire fence out in the cold to avoid some thing that rhymes with crap music.

Banjo:”You say our music is rubbish, maybe, but we do have fun and meet old aquaintances. Our bands fiddler (sorry, violinist) usually gives us a burst of 'William Tell Overture' late in the evening, which is our dose of (ahem) culture, followed by 'Orange Blossom Special'. Both are classics in their class.”

I was just getting back at you for ruining sunsets for me, I thought the music was definitely something I’d bop along to.

Banjo:”Beats shooting each other and blowing others up, like in some countries and that is the way I want to keep it. That is why I get involved in debates about our politics and society. I don't like what I see happening here and it is worse in other places.”

I get involved because this society has children circling the drain. There’s a long history of abuse here and I don’t think anyone is safe (shuddup Joe). But my concerns don’t really involve the immigrants no matter how they got here although when people (forrin folk) ask what it’s like I advise them not to come (especially if not white) - so I’m doing my bit. :P

I went to a B&S ball here when I was a young spinster Belly, awesome fun… from what I remember. Omeegawd it aint all cRAP but then I got it forced on me for years with the kids so was either start enjoying it or adopt them out.

Jewerly am not afraid the wear the racist bigot hat.
No hat truly fits me,but I will wear it.
So often I am judged by people who never have and never will come in to contact with those I stand against.
My Doctor is a great one,a mate and doctor.
I never had a better one never want another.
He is Muslim.
I know only about, ten percent, yes understand I said one in ten, are a problem.
Show me how to tell them from the good.
Have you been told face to face, without heat or a reason for it, this country will be ruled by Muslim majority and Sharia law in a century?
Show me, one group that you ever had to hear that from.
In country towns you will not hear or see this,in city suburbs Sydney suburbs, youth born in Australia, will confront you and insult you,brotherhood once just meant mate ship here.
And if it was half a million English migrants/refugees wanting to come here?
In my view our country can not house unlimited numbers from any country,but it becomes harder if those we embrace refuse to do that for us.

Bellybabe:”Have you been told face to face, without heat or a reason for it, this country will be ruled by Muslim majority and Sharia law in a century?”

Nope and online only the non-muslims seem to mention it to me. But (cause Leap got me all hooked on Pat Condell) I’d suggest getting religion out of politics pretty quick to avoid any religion taking advantage of our stupid laws and flimsy anti-discrimination stuff that the Christians have enjoyed for so long.

“In country towns you will not hear or see this,in city suburbs Sydney suburbs, youth born in Australia, will confront you and insult you,brotherhood once just meant mate ship here.”

Well in country towns they are minorities and likely to get the crap kicked out of them. I think that has always happened throughout the world.

“And if it was half a million English migrants/refugees wanting to come here?”

Yeah that already happened, they got institutionalised and abused horribly. The grown ups got called whinging poms etc.

“In my view our country can not house unlimited numbers from any country,but it becomes harder if those we embrace refuse to do that for us.”

I agree Belly, the world cannot house unlimited numbers. I suppose I am used to dealing with guests who don’t want to be in my home but have nowhere else to go and find everything I do a bit strange and scary to begin with. And on the other hand some of their behaviours freak me out while I try to work out why they act the way they do. I don’t expect an embrace but I start with having house rules obeyed by everyone no matter what culture or background they are from.

Jewelry,
You said "I was just getting back at you for ruining sunsets for me, I thought the music was definitely something I’d bop along to"

I have always reckoned you were a girl that could enjoy herself. Sorry about the sunsets.

If you are going to shoot through to some Island somewhere, who is going to feed your eels? Or will you eat them before parting?

Also who else is going into bat for the kids, can't let the bureaucrats win without a fight.

Nuh, better you keep pluging for permanent residence, we will find a little spot for you.

i know this is poor form
but then read jewels post about my teeth

yes they are a pain..and getting a bigger pain by the moment
[using my front teeth alone..has made them very sharp
so biting my toungue hurts all the more]

so im biting my own tongue as i write this
i was going to post it on bellies ban smoking spiel[thread]
but decided to leave it here..

[remembering we all reveal too much to each other...
and using our 'in confidence reveals'..
spoils our enjoined friendship]

but belly said it
im just repeating

''Drinking very much less,enjoying it more
type two sugar saw to that'''

i know your talking about dia beat-us two
[ya didnt get that from smoking]

it does place into context your worry
about me [a smoker..who never is sick]..
using up..your hospital bed
wasting your health dollars

as it was said on this topic
im only quoting what you wrote...here first

only wrote it because you hate smokers
enough to let lies be sold as true

31 billion is a monster lie mate
[the true cost is 800 million]..

i even quoted your alp saying that in parlenment
but you ignored it there
as you will ignore it now

yet i still have love for you
and respect

stop picking on us being taxed to death
by your alp

furher noting your ignoring the shadow
come on mate..we all feel tired

use ya passion for good
not taxing me to death

you got type 2..and still..got ya booze
and the result..your striking out..
at the helpless..imagrants/refugees

or the unrepresented..by either party
selling tax via lies

i only got..my smokes
and despise all the lies
nanny state..*in diss-cise..

lies lies lies
what about proof or truth

OUG:“yes they are a pain..and getting a bigger pain by the moment
[using my front teeth alone..has made them very sharp
so biting my toungue hurts all the more]”

I’m really sorry to hear that OUG, teeth are just the worst and most expensive thing to deal with. I’m off to get one ripped out soon. I went to get my teeth sealed at $40.00 a tooth years ago and on top of that the appointment fee etc etc then the dentists receptionist snuck me a bottle of the sealer.

Sealing is suppose to last for years so why doesn’t and hasn’t the govt had all children’s teeth sealed? Brushing does not work, I don’t care what ‘they’ say. Fluoride is a disaster and the dental nurses have disappeared from primary schools or were never in them here? Why you can't buy your own sealer is beyond me, it's pretty easy to apply.

Hey Banjo, thanks for making room. Tell you about the last really cool sunset, there was a small round gap in the clouds close to the horizon and the suns rays went up in these lines with rainbow colours through them. Best red sunsets I’ve seen were at the end of a valley in NZ – amazing colours which I later found out were due to a big Aussie bush fire. Whole thing seems ironic now with your music helping the people that put the fires out.

I forgot the pets and it’s hell expensive to move them overseas which I’ve done a couple of times now and I dunno how eels would cope in a campervan. The kids – I know I will lose that fight but being in it is what matters and along the way I win small battles. Aussie kids are way cute with their accents and little funny expressions - big interest in checking what things (bugs, animals) are dangerous which I hadn’t ever dealt with before.

Jewely,
Found this and thought you might just relate to some of it. Most mums would.

I think it clever

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXgoJ0f5EsQ&feature=related

I wish I could sing as fast as her Banjo, that was so cool. Hey I plagiarised my own song:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fovj3xz4_Tw

Australia I said for my destination
The shift wasn’t anything new
The container shipped our tickets were next
With children and friends crying too
Now we live in a small town waiting for footpaths
While learning about our new state
We copy the lingo, fill up at the servo
We’ve managed to make a few mates

But when the sunset is gone and Aussie is all dark
And farmers are out shooting roos
I sit and I wonder and worry takes over
Was Aussie for keeps, or will I shoot through?

We have no, we have no
We have no visas for you
We have no
We have no
We have no visas for you
We have no
We have no
We have no visas for you

Then comes the morning, laughter of children
All worries are gone with the sound
Washing to do, with sky turning blue
But the worries they come back around
Cause later on when Aussie is all dark
And farmers are out shooting roos
I sit and I wonder and worry takes over
Was Aussie for keeps, or will I shoot through?

We have no
We have no
We have no visas for you…(repeats)

We don’t got no visas!

But when the sunset is gone and Aussie is all dark
And farmers are out shooting roos
I sit and I wonder and worry takes over
Was Aussie for keeps, or will I shoot through?

We have no, we have no
We have no visas for you… (repeats)

Can you please tell me when its morning?

Jewerly sorry things seem to be not going too well for you.
Visa? well its got me a bit unsure, see I have in my last job, seen people who want to stay but MUST LEAVE.
One memorable one was Irish young strong good worker Aussie defacto and two kids.
He was working for a bad man, Irish too he under paid his people and had them sent home if they kicked up about it.
Maybe his place, his number, in the lets let some in went to some one with no intention of working.

I’m fine Bellybabe, but the words “Recidency sponser” just didn’t fit.

You do wonder after a big life altering island shift if you did the right thing by your children, or yourself. I didn’t leave poverty or an abusive govt so I might lack the gratitude and relief felt by other kinds of immigrants here that probably keeps them quieter. Maybe that can influence some bad behaviours in the next generations they have?

OLO was and is one of the biggest helps I have found with navigating Aussie culture, attitudes and laws and everything else.

Which reminds me… where is Lexi??

Goodonya Jewerly, I too hope Lexi is well.
25.000 refuges,so far from African Continent to Italy.
Then on to France.
Borders have been shut, no one to be let in,EU changing laws.
Yet it is a spit in a pond.
As Arab country's murder their own as we help some not others, we get closer to millions of refugees not thousands.
Yet no closer to finding answers.
I think some who are displeased with my thoughts may have an out break of not in my back yard illness before much longer.

anyhow i had a reveal
that we should be taking
the refugees home

grant them 'hopnerary refugees status
then take them HOME
with ausie pretection
if you are from wherever..
we build a 'camp'

om home soil..*

with ambasidorial status
much like a church offers SANCTURAY
bringing them HOME

half simply dont fit in

please note..THE REPORT RELEASED
DURING THE ROYAL wedding

it was mentioned on the 7.30 report
about refugees

links to other posts

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=4432&page=0

the report they tried to hide

how about this 'gem'?

http://www.immi.gov.au/media/publications/research/_pdf/settlement-outcomes-new-arrivals.pdf

[released sneakilly
while the presscorpse
was obessing about 'the right/royal''weeding.....destractions]

actuually that search title
turns up some great info
http://www.google.com/search?q=settlement+outcomes+of+new+arrivals+pdf

anyhow enjoy
[and give me feedback on my plan]
imprison them on their own homelands
but under our protection[as our refugies]
bringing them 'home'

so dic/traiters know running away
wont avoid full truth being revealed

govt then engages with the peoples govts
[think of the boon just to intell..!
current govt intel is poor

Saw Lexi has posted, so she is ok.
Jewerly life takes every one of us into places we never intended.
It hurts some times but if we let it we can handle even that.
I very long ago closed some doors on past hurt.
In fact am a bit like a hermit, not hiding just happy to haunt my big home alone.
No one can travel the track for you,but you can make it an easier journey if you drop the heaviest part of the load and re pack.
OUG gee bloke unload that pack, get the quick trot one on your shoulders.
You stand on an ant hill preaching to the world about smoking.
MOST know it is bad for you, I an ex walking ash tray WANTED DESPERATELY, to give it away 15 years before I could.
Sugar comes via bad eating/family history , many things.
Mine came from a family line,but late in life via stress/commitment to hard work and some people who both at home and at work needed higher than normal maintenance.
I am not well, not known to be dieing but not expecting to be around much longer.
But boy am I happy.
Only the person who lives inside us can hurt us.
Jewerly you can come out stronger .
Last few will under stand this, I do not want migrants to fall on the ground and kiss my country.
Unless you respect it however you will not understand us.
I grew among Europeans to be the man I now am,an Aussie of convict stock.
My concerns blacken me, ok so be it.
But cultural, educational religious differences demand I speak out about my fear and concerns.
About population numbers,who and how our country grows and ask why is our country to have no say in this.