I see Malcolm Turnbull has put his foot in it. What is this silly light bulb politics. He wants to ban incandescant light bulbs and force everyone to install low-voltage fluorescent bulbs. And Pete Garrett.. Mr Irrational Conservationist... agrees with him.

What a silly idea. Anyone can install LVF bulbs today if they want to or more importantly if it is appropriate. They have their place. There are, however, places where this will lead to significantly increased use of energy. It takes a lot of energy to start an LVF bulb and you have to leave it on for a long time before you get the payback in energy savings. Incandescent is better wherever the light is only required for a short time (in the dunny for instance).

Think again MT!

There has not been any common sense in the GW debate to now, so why should Malcom Turnbull be any different? I wonder how much energy Mr Garrets endorsed US base will use. Good for a laugh!

Another sign of political desperation. If Turnbull is the guru he has been trumpeted as, and the next leader of the Liberal Pary, gawd help us all.

The minute this silliness was announced, people started ringing up to say that they were badly affected by this type of light because of epilepsy, migraines and other medical conditions.

Good luck Malcolm!

This one looks like another plastic bag episode. Plastic bags are still going strong despite the 'pledge' to get rid of them.

Agreed, a skeptical mind would suggest that this is only a Forced attempt to enact a knish market by compulsion, not choice;

So a skeptical mind would need to ask what political market would that encapsulate; and by compulsion devoid of any free will. Such demands on us mere ignorant peasants, will it never end?
Pigs bottom; wake up Australia.Or the lights will go out.

Banning incandescant light bulbs is a band aid solution to both the energy crisis and carbon emission crisis. What has to be done is either ration electricity or ban dishwashers , clothes driers , deep freezers, second tv sets and white goods.

Nothing is going to change the massive waste of energy that occurs now unless a pre paid - pay as you go system is put in place.

Runner is not wrong, with water restrictions people have been forced to kill their gardens especially those who grow their own vegetables , others have had no choice but to allow their house gardens become tinder dry creating bush fire risk , others again have watched their homes begin to crack as soil dries and moves. Meanwhile in factories and buisnesses around the country water is wasted at massive volumes , great spaces are evaporatively cooled for no particular purpose. Cooling towers and general piping are leaking. Industry is not compelled to become water efficient and it wont be compelled to become energy efficient.

"Malcolm Turnbull...wants to ban incandescant light bulbs and force everyone to install low-voltage fluorescent bulbs."

I agree with you as well, Waterboy.
Why the silly lightbulb changes?
Even though we have those low-voltage fluorescent bulbs throughout most of our house, there are places we don't want them (toilets ans bathroom).

Why, if they find they got to start 'somewhere', don't they start by boycotting or banning all 1-3 star electrical appliances such as washing machines, fridges etc and allow us to manufacture only 4+ star electrical goods where available?

I agree with Leigh about the plastic bags as well- we all need bags for garbage.

I think it was 20 odd years ago, all household appliances had continuity switching transformers fitted- that means, when the appliance was not used, it would not draw electricity, But that changed- now standards have continuity fixed transformers- that means, even if the appliance is switched off, it still draws electricity; What they don’t like to tell anyone, is you have to switch it off at the PowerPoint.
Are our politician / Bureaucrats total dopes or do they just thinking we are all stupid?

It is cheaper to run 12 volt inverters to operate lighting in a house; it just means people need to do a bit of homework instead of following the blind faith of political / bureaucratic proven liars.

I'd like to see how much more energy it takes to actually manufacture one of these bulbs than for an incandencent one, given the difference in purchase price.

I'm guessing that the nett gain energy-wise is smaller than we have been led to believe.

One of the components of these bulbs is mercury so the cost and methods of disposal may also need to be considered.

This is an interim feel-good solution to a much larger problem.

Maybe Malcolm T should be more concerned with where the power comes from?

Pollies are funny creatures, and are especially comical in their use of waste paper baskets. Into one goes a CSIRO report claiming that solar thermal power could compete with coal on a cost basis by 2015, along with a report claiming that clean coal isn't all it's cracked up to be,

http://canberra.yourguide.com.au/detail.asp?class=news&subclass=environment&story_id=557289&category=Environment

and from another comes a dusty old Bradfield Scheme. Doesn't it just leave you in stitches?

Sometimes I wish I could remember what I read some years ago, but in ‘The National Geographic magazine published in 1992 explained how a small country town of 30 odd houses a shopping center and a pub were supplied power by?

Yep; one Solar power plant.

What changed?

Bugger I wish I could get that publication again.

All wrote;
It is cheaper to run 12 volt inverters to operate lighting in a house;
it just means people need to do a bit of homework instead of following the blind faith of political / bureaucratic proven liars.

Please explain, I presume you mean the usual 12vdc to 240vac inverters.
If so how can they be cheaper to run ? They have losses.
Then you have to catch your 12 volt. I must have missed something here.
There are a number of small remote towns using solar systems with
large DC to AC inverters to supply their town. They always, as far as I have
seen have diesal backup. It comes down to cost.
It is not the initial cost either but the replacement battery cost.
If it is big enough not to need the backup the battery bank is very
substantial and the battery upkeep/replacement costs are very
significant.

You are right Bazz, Battery storage is limited, but it is relatively inexpencive contry to popular belief, although people will need to develop a mind set to explore other option.

Diesel Generators would obviously be used, but some simple engineering and drive line know how, you can operate several dynamos off the one Engine thus increasing the output 4 & 6 & 8 fold of a single drive line; I take it you are familiar with Bio diesel and how to make it.
Cost effective =12cents for 12 hours run time, for one single unit .

We have only made crude models of this; it is not the be all to end all, but non the less it is preparation for what is in stall in the not so distant future;

Solar panels and associated technology are far more advanced than some people give credence.
Although it is dragging the thread off the topic; perhaps if Governments actually spent the Surplus from Utilities on renewing and upgrading as they did in the past and what was once their Constitutional duty , instead of lining their mates and associates pockets, we would never be in this predicament.

Just check out the surplus amounts through budget reporting and how much was stolen.

If anything Bazz it is to spike people into thinking again, answers are not simple, but not impossible.

Lets say; Turn the Lights on again.

Well All wrote;
Diesel Generators would obviously be used, but some simple engineering
and drive line know how, you can operate several dynamos off the one
Engine thus increasing the output 4 & 6 & 8 fold of a single drive line;
I take it you are familiar with Bio diesel and how to make it.
Cost effective =12cents for 12 hours run time, for one single unit .

Why wouldnt you not just get an alternator the right size for the engine
and produce 415 volt 3 phase and be done with it. You can supply the
village directly with minium losses and recharge the batteries at the
same time. You could autostart the set when the battery voltage dropped
if the batteries could not get throgh the night.
I can't see your purpose in having several separate "dynamos" (DC ?) coupled
to the engine, seems like a total waste of energy.

Rache provokes a thought. Re-usable product is better than recycled. I dont know of any light bulb which does not end up as land fill. The plastic components emit gases some of which are greenhouse. The bulb is small but everything counts to the manufacturing, it takes a lot of energy to make glass and plastics as well as the metal components. Then on top of everything the product is distributed and distribution is often global. Technology should shift to re-using as much of the bulb as possible. Idealy we should focus on packaging also. Tinned food and plastic wrap for example are one off use products destined for landfill.
Perhaps we should review the old "hippy" ideals of refilling containers at the store, re-using jars to store rather than spending so much $$ on plastic ware and go back to the quaint shoe and stocking repairers rather than buying disposable sweat shop clothing. Perhaps even go back to the 5 day week ( which would save a lot of energy including transport savings) and hold sports events during the day in day light. An 8 hour working day would also lessen the need of lighting up endless kilometres of factory and store space for the benifit of a few people.

Perhaps we should reconsider (hu)man power in place of machinery, renewable timber instead of plastic and working locally.

In a way the light bulb ban is akin to the Japanese down sizing of American technology after the war to get the most out of meger resources. Banning recreational motorcycles , jet skis and domestic SUV's would have been more helpful. But then again as we have witnessed in Japan more efficient product is not enough.

Thanks Bazz, but I did mention Crude model and not based on schematics, the intent was to highlight the available equipment and materials to achieve maximum with limited resources, I suppose what I failed to explain was to produce 60 -80 Kw of power using one diesel car engine geared on a drive line, without a visa card and ordering a turbine that could produce a lot more at the flick of a switch.

You have to make it by know how.

If anything it will highlight the basics that are required and people must come to learn and understand.
Then move on to more technical and sophisticated measures.
The three phases would not be much use for house hold items unless the intent is to run ducted air-conditioning units or Industrial equipment.

Although it is a good point in recharging battery packs.

440 volts seems a little over the mark for a toaster and PC.And besides, you would need to corrilate solar power and Auxillery power into one jumction box or be it a new model substation.

It is easier to teach the simple and basic principles first. then progress into more advanced methods.

But at least we will have power to turn a light bulb on.

All,
Bad name to use that, as I was addressing you in particular not all.
I thought you were proposing a system for a small village.
Solar cells in the situation that you propose just would not be available.
You could do as you suggest drive "dynamos" (an old term that) from an
engine but you might need a lathe to manufacture couplings etc.
If you were in a windy place a wind generator might suffice for lighting.
I don't think electricity will be our problem, it will be liquid fuels.
2 deg rise by 2100, petrol rationing by 2012. I know which I will think about.

Bazz buy a bicycle and connect a battery charger to it. Kill two birds with one stone.

We have used solar lights instead of night lights for the kids for years. It has not mattered how cloudy the day has been. Cheap lights will last until 3 or 5 am depending on the brand of batteries installed.

It does take excersise though , something a lot of people are too lazy to do , to put the lights out during the day and bring them in at night. It takes five minutes which is too much to bare for a lot of people. Recently we have used them where bright lights are not necessary, the toilet and bathroom and hall way and the kitchen after cooking the evening meal. Small rooms such as the toilet and bathroom are very brightly lit. Ironically our use of solar lights was evoked by the annoying number of power blackouts we had to endure, except the kids nite lights , I didnt like having a little hot plug in the kids room burning all night. In that sense solar is safer. But like all things civilised batteries will die after three or four years and will become pollution.

For a few dollars more than cheap solar lights you can buy ones you can turn off when you go to bed and use two to three nights without having to put them outside.

Its kind of odd there is such a large cost for installing solar electricity into the house when solar lights are avaliable for a very low cost.

I had tried a search on that solar plant from many years ago, but I can’t find any web entries,
But non the less, The Orbital Space lab is equipped with a prism solar collector, If I can gather some statistical data on power consumption/ Generator, that would be the best model as it is active and durable, and powers up a lot of gadgets.
I don’t think it is classified.
Yes we do have an Industrial lathe and an old banger, but deadly accurate;
That said, Electronic motors/ Generators , engineered of that era, are excellent components and Models to duplicate.And I do.
They Surpasses Modern engineering by miles and will out live us and then way passes us.
Can't get anymore durable than that.

West, I agree that packaging is much more of a landfill evil than plastic shopping bags (recognising that they are packaging as well, but with a myriad of different uses). I refuse to use the green bags that are now being promoted, at least not to do my weekly groceries. I get just enough plastic bags from woollies to line my kitchen bin for the week. If I end up with a really big shop, I might use excess bags as packing around parcels to be mailed - saves buying additional plastic packaging. And they are good for tying up dirty nappies to throw out - yes with water restrictions it appears to be more environmentally friendly to throw out 4-5 disposables, than to wash a load of cloth nappies and their covers a day (up to 12 nappies a day). That said, I stuck to clothes nappies until my child was over a year old, but then water restrictions started to bite.

Many years back when I owned a yacht, great conversation starter, but it was wood, 35 years old and wanted a lot of work, however I digress, I bought a solar panel to keep the batteries charged.
Today this keeps a couple of old car batteries up to scratch and they power the 12v toilet fluoro. and a couple of 12v night lights. These three stay on 24/365.

One thing that I haven't seen mentioned is that fluoro. lights if they have the same frequency as a nearby rotating mass will cause that mass to appear to be stationary. This is why in machine shops most machines, particularly lathes and mills must have a working incandesent light as their principal means of illumination.
Perhaps some domestic kitchen appliances?

The SMH of24/25 Feb. has a brilliant (incandesent ?) illustration on p31 by Chris Henning of an Exemption Form pertaining to Fluorescent Lights.

Off Topic. I put in a few extra ? marks to emphasise the spots above where single ones now appear. The 'oracle' made me remove them. Bah!