rechtub,

"We need a system like America. Wait staff there either become very good at their jobs and get well rewarded with tips or they fail."

Oh, yes, let's do it American style (I'm getting all warm and fuzzy just thinking about it). Let's have a strata of working poor - and then underneath them, let's have a strata of poverty stricken working poor (they deserve it, you know).

And why stop there? Let's have a whole tier of people who can't afford medical care (In the most technologically advance society on earth there are people who can't afford to see a doctor and who are bankrupted after a minor hospital stay - and whose "citizens" undertake massive protests when the government tries to redress the balance) - Yep! - sounds like a great system. Oh, before I finish - let's see is we can muster up more homeless people than you can poke a stick at (and I bet you're the type that would poke a stick at them too).

America has been going down your - pay the peasants peanuts - paradigm for years and has still managed to lose its manufacturing base to China.

Don't hold the U.S. system up as some brilliant model of how a society should be. At this stage of the game, it is entering a serious decline.
Your recipe is not one that promotes a healthy and harmonious dynamic in society - it's one that encourages a fractured society where the chasm of inequality breeds contempt between the classes.

(I'm eternally grateful that I never encountered an employer with an attitude like yours).

Well put Poirot.

There should be no type of work that means being poor ie. not able to sustain a normal life and pay basic bills. A large working poor is not good economically by any standard. How poor is poor? That depends on the cost of living.

Just because you don't want to be a cleaner or a retail assistant does not mean that those who perform those roles should be penalised. The minimum wage should be able to support a person with a basic standard of living without the need for charity IMO or it is not 'work'.

Our minimum wage is "too high" only in comparison to the developing world. The fault is with a system that competes at the lowest common denominator and competes on price over quality or service.

I agree with you that some of the imposts on small business are too demanding. Retirement policies, impost of GST administration, red tape are all bugbears but as far as fair pay goes we may have to disagree on what is a fair minimum wage.

Why not get rid of the minimum wage altogether and pay just what you think is fair. I am sure all those employers who can afford to pay more will jump at the chance for some goodwill. Hang on...WorkChoices proved that employers will always race to the bottom in respect of wages and conditions. Then when employers complain they cannot find enough workers who will work for peanuts or the odd tip we can import some cheap labour from overseas.

Your lack of respect for people doing jobs that many people refuse to do is insulting to them and diminishes the important work they peform.

Pelican>>The minimum wage should be able to support a person with a basic standard of living without the need for charity IMO or it is not 'work'.

Well, it used to. That was before we all had a plasma, a mobile or two, some furinture on interest free terms, the list goes on.

You see, what has happened is that our so called 'cost of living' has been increased by 'life style choices' and the easy answer is to increase wages.

Go back 30 years, if you didn't have the money, you either saved it, or, you went without.

The third alternative was to 'work long hours', just like I did, then you had the money. 60, 70, even 80 hours per week were normal in my job. Didn't hurt me, if anything it made me save as I was to tired to do anything or go anywhere.

Nowdays, many younger folk priotitise their social life and fit their working lives around their job.

A casual worker, sweeping floors, stacking chairs etc at the entertainment centre is on $20 per hour normal, $40 per hour on Sundays or after midnight. No skill required.

What is the pay rate for police on Sundays or after midnight I ask.

Not now days. Today, one can have their cake and one can eat it, it's just that one wants someone else to pay for it.

The price we have paid for these life style, often 'unaffordable' choices, is that many industries are now looking elsewhere for their workers.

How smart are we!

its sad your so upset about cleaners
do you run a clean house
do you 'clean it'

thing is cleaning is easy
but cleaning the whole factory in one hour
is impossable..[i am reminded thatr workers work better
[and get less sick..in a clean workplace]

leave the cleaners be..many are on fixed rates
need to travel at odd hours and dont get paid if the job isnt done properly[many are still on howards contracts].dont get holidays or any leave loading..etc

but lets look at the plasma electicity guzzling thing
and the mobile phiones [2] on different plans
these they had to buy..very likely on credit[because their wages wont pay for that 'luxury'..thus they need to pay off their other furniture

its sad one ..who has so much
should love to pick on ..those who have so little
i wouldnt get out of bed at midnight to clean a toilet for 20 bucks

[and dont say you would..
cause you would be only decieving yourself]

OUG>>i wouldn't get out of bed at midnight to clean a toilet for 20 bucks

And therein lies the problem.

Many immigrants would, and do, give their right arm to get paid 20 bucks to clean a toilet at midnight.

We Aussies, on the other hand, have this notion that we are to good for that so, rather than our leaders taking charge and saying, tough!, we have sat back and allowed our people to be supported by welfare while these from foreign nations think they have won the loto and think to them selves, how good is this.

Now before you all go off and remind me of the low unemployment we currently have, just remember to take out the jobs created out of default.

Furthermore, is it little wonder we have police officers crying foul, risking their lives to protect us while at times being paid little more than an after hour's toilet cleaner.

BTW, my staff love and respect me because when there is cleaning to be done I am often first cab off the rank.

You people have no idea what is involved in creating and maintaing jobs.

Simply increasing wages because 'times are tough' is not the answer.

By all means, go right ahead, but it may be the last pay rise for many, and you can quote me on that.

My point is simply this rehctub. It is not that the minimum wage is too high (in the big picture), but that other salaries are too high. You cannot push up the top end without pushing up the bottom end of the income scale.

The problems stem from top down not from bottom up.