My youngest son has recently returned from a six week holiday travelling all over Europe. For him, it was quite an experience. As a result, we've had many discussions on a wide variety of subjects - including what makes Australia and Australians unique and special. I thought it would be interesting to see what posters on the Forum thought about the subject of, "The Australian Identity.?" What is it, how would you define it? The Australian Identity is often talked about, but rarely defined. What are your thoughts on the subject?

"Buying bread from a man in Brussels
He was six foot four and full of muscles
I said, "Do you speak-a my language?"
He just smiled and gave me a vegemite sandwich."

Dear Lexi

a rather done2death topic :) but still worth a grunt or 2.

It is very difficult to define Aussie identity apart from our history.

It is not consciously 'practiced' because it's culture... you just 'do' it.

Unfortunately, what we lack in Australia at present is an overall sense of unity. Instead..we have been fed a diet of 'celibrate diversity'....which to me is tantamount to cultural/indentity genocide.

I have no wish to celebrate 'diversity' in Australia.. I have a STRONG desire to celebrate 'Austalia' as a whole.

In harmony with that.. I am advocating that ALL funding which is presently allocated to emphasizing 'difference and diverisity' be channeled ONLy to causes or community groups which can demonstrate 'true inclusion'. Which of course will mean that the local "lions" or Rotary will be able to show there are no race or color or economic barriers to anyone joining.

Such groups can be asked to show what specific steps they have undertaken to reach out to and include minorities.. AS AUSTRALIANS and not as 'members of minority groups'

Spread this over the whole of Australia, and within a couple of decades we will be able to speak meaningfully and confidently about 'Australian'....identity.

Prior to WWII.."Australian" mean't white, anglo/celt/irish/scottish.
Post WWII it meant the same...but with increasing numbers of non UK based migrants.

If the UK metropolitan police can have the 'BLACK' police Association.. why should we not have the WHITE Australia policy :)

Why is one good and ther other bad? which is good..which is bad?

Let's face it.. 'identity' to Black migrants in the UK is directly linked to 'black'ness. Same for Muslims. "Muslim"-ness.

It might be color related or creed related.

For me. Aussie identity is when you ask "What's your race?" and they answer "Australian" (no matter what ethnic background.)

Oz identity

Has nothing to do with 'race'

Or religion

But everything

To do with mateship, fair go

And equality

AGIR:

Thanks for your input and good questions. I know that my son loved
his trip and being exposed to the various cultures - however, he was also glad to come home. He talked about the openess, the friendliness, the true sense of belonging that he felt on reaching home. I guess though that's normal - because much as you thrive and enjoy travel, it's always great to come home. It's funny though - he said he felt more "Australian" when travelling overseas. He found that Australians are more easy-going - (especially more - than Italians or the French). As for the Brits? - he loved the UK. His favourite places were - Austria, Bavaria, Switzerland, just to name a few. His least favourite were - Italy, France, (for the attitude of the people) and Hong Kong - for the untidiness and the unbearable smells. And he will never travel again to Europe in the middle of winter. One experience was enough for him. He enjoyed the pretty post-card snow-covered scenery and the Christmas Markets and Spirit, especially in Switzerland, Austria, Bavaria. But when the temperatures fell to minus 11 degrees, he wished he was back in Oz.

Shintaro:

Love your posts. Australia to me is a country of diverse cultures, images and people - I find what makes us unique is - our mateship, we're more accepting of each other, and we certainly come together in times of crisis.

Hi Lexi
It is sometimes difficult to define what it is that makes us Australians so Australian. It often becomes a very personal view and in my view, we are seeing what it means to be Australian in Queensland at the moment; doing it really tough; but stubborn or proud enough to tough it out and fix it all up at the end. It was only a couple of weeks ago that floods were the issue; now it's Yasi. But they'll bounce back I'm sure, and all of us other Australians will be wishing them well and donating whatever we can afford.
There is always plenty of debate about "the Flag" and our heritage. Sadly it's the "mad fringe" that seem to get the airplay, but our history is just that; our history. You might not like it, but it is what it is. Instead of dwelling on the negative aspects of our background, I think we should proudly focus on what we are today, and what we can be in the future. I think that people that come here need to adapt and adopt the Australian way. As always, if you don't like it here then leave.
As for what to tell your son; well, he's a lucky young man to have travelled and luckier still to have returned home to Australia. We are all very lucky to be living in Australia wnere we enjoy democratic freedom, the Westminster justice and legal systems and also have one of the most resource-rich countries in the world to provide for our future prosperity.
My view is that Australians are easy-going, friendly and tollerant. We quietly respect and acknowledge our past and we have always done our bit when called upon to do so. I think we need to look optimistically towards the future and try to balance preserving our "national identity" with being good global citizens and not allow our identity to be dilluted into a mish-mash of cultures that loses our unique individuallity.
That's one man's view anyway. Take care.

Lexi you are too soft.
For AGiR to say any subject is done to death is hugely funny, its a good subject.
Once thought mateship was it, the wanting nothing but to help.
It still is for many maybe most but not all.
Its claiming, unfortunately, any sports champion as ours even if they never lived here or had any ties.
It the beer belly bloke having trouble getting of the bar stool yelling WE WON as another Aussie wins.
What ever it is I would rather be a road kill Koala than anything else.

Radar:

I feel that you've summed it up in a nutshell. You've said it much better that I could have done. Bless You!

Belly:

I always knew you're just a great big bear (a cuddly one).

If Boazy reckons it's been done to death, you had better believe it!

I would have thought "Bathurst" would have the more Australian reply to his last question...

Bugsy, my first thought

When I read Al's question

Was the Melbourne Cup

It is always interesting to get Australians to talk about "being Australian".

But it is rarely particularly enlightening.

Nor would you expect it to be. Think of the kind of answers you would get if you asked Austrians about "being Austrian", Americans about "being American", or Russians about "being Russian".

The first thing that happens is that they will instantly parrot a self-image stereotype. For instance, if you asked a Frenchman about "being French", you wouldn't hear him say "well, we are a generally surly lot who look down our noses at foreigners". He would be more likely to say something along the lines of "we are artistic, food-loving philosophers".

So it is on the whole, more an image of an image, if you see what I mean.

And it is all a little misleading as well.

For every Australian I know who is "easy-going, friendly and tolerant", I could name at least one other who is prickly, antagonistic and prejudiced. For every Italian who is rude, condescending and devious, I could name at least one who is polite, egalitarian and straightforward.

But here's another thought.

On the "world stage", our image is tied up with that of our Prime Minister.

Which of the following would you regard as having an "Australian identity", or be closest to it:

Malcolm Fraser (1975-83)
Robert Hawke (1983-91)
Paul Keating (1991-96)
John Howard (1996-2007)
Kevin Rudd (2007-10)
Julia Gillard (2010-)

Answers on a postcard, please...

Ah that is easy, Pericles.

Sir Les Patterson, so typically Australian !

Australian Identity.
Lexi,
Do you think Australians are any different ? Put anyone into a particular situation/environnment & you'll find they all react the same. Only the circumstances are unique, not the people. Anyhow, that's my view.

I've got one more point to make about Aussie Identity.. in an overseas context.

When I moved to Singapore in the mid 70s to do an orientation course prior to service with a mission, there were about 3 Aussies, and the rest (about 25) were from all over the world. The Aussies were married so had their own company and social thing.. I was single and had 'me'.

After a month or 2, I started to feel rather isolated and out on a limb.
One day I went down to a place called 'Change alley' and in the midst of the dense crowd of Chinese, Malays, Indians and various tourists....Suddenly I HEARD IT.... "A broad aussie accent"! and surprise surprise it was a genuine aussie and not the nearest Indian bunging on a fake tryhard accent to make a sale.(That happened in Penang)

Oh my.. only then did I realize just how very very much it mean't to me. I suddenly felt at home.. not out on a limb.. I had 'someone' who shared the same things I did.

Pericles:

Cultures, images, people, and perceptions - of course these vary.
However, I was more interested in how you saw us as a nation, how you saw our national identity. But perhaps that's rather difficult to define?

Of all the PM's you listed - I would say Bob Hawke comes close to the Australian Identity. At least for me.

Individual:

Australians are different, at least in my opinion. Our version of English is rather unique - I remember times when I worked overseas and used expressions like, "Full as a goog," "Let's catch the lift,"
"He's going flat chat," or "It's my shout," "Don't get your knickers in a knot," "Bob's your uncle!" these expressions had my colleagues confused - and needed explaining.

AGIR:

Your story struck a cord with me. I remember a similar experience whilst working overseas and feeling very homesick one Christmas - when I spotted the add for the movie, "Crocodile Dundee," and I can't
tell you the feeling of nostalgia that came over me. I knew I'd be going home, and soon.

I too lived away from Australia for nine months, when I married my Irish-born husband and we lived in Ireland and England.
I was terribly homesick after a few months- though mainly for my Australian family members.

Strangely enough Lexi, it was every time I heard "Land Downunder" on the radio in Ireland at the time, I cried!
Strangely enough, my Irish husband missed Australia even more than I did.

The only Aussie accent I heard in those nine months was the Aussie air-hostesses on the Qantus plane on our way home.
I almost cried then as well!

So, I would say that it is the Aussie accent, and any Australian Aboriginal person of course, that mostly identifies a 'real' Aussie.

As a Belgian refugee with impeccable taste and magnificent moustaches, I often ask myself what I can do to embrace a more Australian identity.
I've often thought to adopt a more appropriate surname - one with a more "Aussie" resonance - so I'm considering Hercule Rudd...what do you think?

I think the notion of "mateship" being something uniquely Australian is well past it's use-by date. I think we should have grown out of the need for that sort of personal reassurance by now.

Friendship is a universal concept and to claim that we are the only ones in the world who practice it is somewhat bizarre. We've grown up now.

Claiming that we have a "larrikin spirit" is also something we should put aside.

Sadly, the only thing we can really claim as our own is probably the "tall poppy syndrome" and how we hate to see somebody getting something that we aren't personally entitled to.

Other than that, our culture is more an amalgam of what we see and aspire to on imported television programmes plus what is brought in by immigrants - not that it's such a bad thing overall.

Wobbles,
I think you summed it up with a clear & sober view.

That wasn't quite the direction I was taking with this, Lexi.

>>Pericles: Cultures, images, people, and perceptions - of course these vary. However, I was more interested in how you saw us as a nation, how you saw our national identity.<<

I was suggesting that there is, and can be, no abstract definition of our "national identity", only an image that we have manufactured for ourselves. And because it is an image, it cannot stand up to any scrutiny beyond the most superficial.

Nations are saddled every so often with a stereotype. The British stiff upper lip, German efficiency, Japanese industry, American insularity etc., just as we have the "bronzed Aussie surfer" image overseas. I'm not sure that it actually means anything. How many surfers are there in Australia, and how many of them are "bronzed"?

Our own image is equally unreal, an amalgam of Gallipoli-Kokoda fortitude and outback-pub mateship, neither of which is particularly meaningful.

The fact that people get homesick after prolonged periods away from their homeland has, I suspect, very little to do with the cultural features of the country in question. As Douglas Adams famously pointed out:

"...every being in the universe is tied to his birthplace by tiny invisible force tendrils composed of little quantum packets of guilt" (The Hitch-Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy)

In the same way that Australians get teary on the Heathrow tarmac the first time the QF2 hostie gets on the PA system, I suspect that even boat people, having fled a repressive and murderous regime, might experience the same tingle up the spine when they hear an accent from their home town.

This might come as a shock to 'Aussies', those flag draped goons who get pissed everywhere and act like arseholes at sports events, those bumper sticker fascists who demand that we 'love the flag or f... off', those xenophobes who shout about the nation being full, so f... off, and so on.

Yes, the 'identity' of Australians is as much that as the benign 'good chap' (special conditions apply for sheilas) who wanders around the world talking loudly and wearing almost nothing in other peoples countries, oblivious to these peoples sensibilities and cultures.

One thing we can be sure of though, just as the first whities came to this spot of land from Londinium, so too did the word 'mate', and, Heaven help us, the concept of 'mateship'.

Never heard of a 'china plate'?

The only image that is more puke-making than 'an Aussie' as described above, is a politician or 'community leader' who talks about the 'unique' or the 'quintessential' idea of 'Aussie mateship', as if this was somehow a genuine creation of white Australia since just before 1902.

'Mateship' has become a limiting stone around our necks, just as the shibboleth of 'the lucky country' has, or the 'Aussies play sport fairly', or any other gross exaggeration of some imagined national affliction.

Time to grow up posters, and accept that we are humans, and share the exact same human qualities as other humans, including a propensity to look after our immediate community when under stress, like a massive bushfire, flood, cyclone, war, and so on.

"Australian Identity"
People like to keep telling each other it's "mateship, having a laugh, taking it on the chin and not taking things too seriously".

Sadly this may exist in some parts of Australia (mainly outside the cities). In the city (Sydney) we have many, many honest people trying to correspond to these principles and other sociable and generous principles- yet sadly we can't help but feel that the unofficial "Australian spirit" is instead:

1- Angry, pretentious, judgemental old-English 'class' bigotry, to the point where people are desperate to buy whatever they can to have something to gloat over
2- Being whiny about everything, but too lazy to get off our arses and do something about it (even down to spending a few minutes studying candidates when an election looms).
3- Apathy and meek obedience to even ridiculous demands
4- Misanthropy
5- Being self-absorbed and inconsiderate
6- alcoholism

Generally, the people who are not like this (I'd say about 1.8 million at a rough guess) have to carry the rest, along with all their baggage, on their own backs.

Thanks for all your inputs - for sharing your thoughts so openly. To me, I guess it's what I feel in my heart about this country, "I love a sunburnt country, a land of sweeping plains..." part of it is the Australian language (a special brand of Antipodean English that we speak but which, alas, many of our authors neglect to use in their writing). We've inherited generations of wisdom, skill, poetry, song, all the sunsrises and sunsets of knowledge past - we're the sum of all of the people who went before us. We're as Australian as a Chiko roll or a kookaburra's raucous laugh. There's a certain lust for life in our language. As Bryce Courtenay points out, "It is covered in yellow dust and hardened by drought, then made soggy again with too much rain, rendered tough once more by bad times and fluffy as a lamington by good fortune yet again restored. It's the language of an uncertain ambivalent land not yet entirely sure of who it is, though bloody certain it isn't returning to where it came from."

I knew there was a very good reason why I have never picked up a book by Bryce Courtney, not just because I thought he was the Governor General.

Somehow, 'poetry' and 'literature' are not exact replications of what we really are, are they?

They are just 'poetry' and 'literature' in the end.

I read 'They're A Weird Mob' in the UK when I was about 10 and 'knew' that Nino was a true reflection of an Australian.

Waddya know?

When I got here, with my well thumbed copy, I was quite right.

So Lexi, there can be exceptions to my rule above, I do concede.

Hi Lexi.

I ask this same question for 34 years now. As a former Digger, it was the varied Straylian accents of my comrades that prompted me to ask : “Are you from so & so mate?”

The question of identity per se…Gallipoli is seen by many as 'the' place in our history that gave us the Aussie “image” known until recent times. Our black humour in times of tragedy, with the indomitable ability to take the piss in the most extreme situations, & laugh in the face of fear itself.

A wonderful yarn from one of my Corporals when he was the lead scout in the Vietnam War. He spotted a large linked chain used for pulling trees over (prior to the deployment of Agent Orange to defoliate vegetated areas). Giving the signal, he called up the battalion command group to observe first hand what he had found. By this time over 300 men were on high alert in an area full of VietCong. When the very worried Lt/Colonel had settled in beside the Cpl he calmly turned his head back around, saying to him : “Just imagine the size of the dog on the end of the chain there… hey Boss…!” The Cpl telling me this yarn over 30 yrs ago, had the most wonderful Cunnamulla drawl.

The same spirit, & the same irreverent attitude has been alluded to in studies from First Fleet & afterwards.

But the latter day Aussie…who are we? We are rapidly being Americanised. = de Australianized.

Here in the Territory, throughout the various remote communities you can see American rapper culture plainly evident, Fiddy Cent, bandanas with Rastafarian motifs, baseball hats on backwards or worn sideways. There is very little - if any at all Australian popular culture, seen in role models, save the odd AFL player who takes the time & effort to visit these communities.

We have become the ‘Melting Pot’ that the White Australia Policy of a century ago had sought not to be.

Whether it is the Ocker, the Sporting hero/heroine, the Oscar awarded thespian, the quiet achiever wherever...

No matter which country I could've been born in, I would always have been me: Irish me, American me, Spanish me.... I hope people are getting the point. Nationality is just tribalism but expanded to a degree where some people believe by draping themselves in items such as flags makes them deeply patriotic. When all such apparel means nothing more than human in human made fabric.

It is how you treat others that matters, not which nationality you are.

That said, I love the smell of eucalyptus, the jeering of kookaburras and Aussie Rules football. Whenever I saw a stand of eucalyptus in California and Arizona I would become homesick, however I have no doubt that a field of heather would bring a tear to the eye of many a Scot.

Dear Lexi

your quoting of McKellar's poem is most applicable.

Do you by any chance notice the stark contrast between the first "Scotland is my home" stanza...to the "But now Australia is" in the 2nd?

It stands out like a country loo on a sunburnt plain to me.

She did not begin her new life as a'Scot' in Australia...but as an Aussie.

If all ethnicities can reach that point we have truly arrived at a harmonious country.

"Creed" is more the problem but in the interests of being uber predictable..I won't go there :)

Suffice to say "any" creed is welcome....except those which hate us.

Albie Manton in Darwin:>> A wonderful yarn from one of my Corporals when he was the lead scout in the Vietnam War. He spotted a large linked chain used for pulling trees over (prior to the deployment of Agent Orange to defoliate vegetated areas). Giving the signal, he called up the battalion command group to observe first hand what he had found. By this time over 300 men were on high alert in an area full of VietCong. When the very worried Lt/Colonel had settled in beside the Cpl he calmly turned his head back around, saying to him : “Just imagine the size of the dog on the end of the chain there… hey Boss…!” The Cpl telling me this yarn over 30 yrs ago, had the most wonderful Cunnamulla drawl.<<

Albie many thanks, it made me laugh and it made me proud of that wild colonial boy in Viet.

G'day SonofGloin.

All these years later, & I too am as proud as, of the guys n gals going over to the 'Sand Pit'. Don't necessarily agree though with the idea that we are fighting (yet again) for Uncle Sam's vested interests.

We could be better utilised in our own region.

Come wars, civil strife, cyclones, floods, droughts and always there will be that colonial spirit in abundance. My sprogs are Eurasian, and as proud of their Green & Gold and Cootamundra Wattle as their old man.

Interesting post J Parker.

In a way you tapped into the deeper part of 'us' with your final words.

You say it matters only how we treat people.

But let's contextualize this. We have an Island nation, most of 'us' are Anglo etc /white, and we developed a kind of hybrid racial identity which includes our color. In the same way, people of different color or eye shape etc.. have a sense of identity related to those things.

Such things only dissappear over a number of generations. As people intermarry, and time passes, I think the sense of consciousness of who we are will see the divisions which are natural based on race or origin or language blurr.. and a new sense of more homogenous identity will emerge. It won't reflect just one of the component parts, but all of them.

But to be truly honest.. I don't have my identity in my nation as much as in my Savior. Being "in Christ" surpasses and overcomes all the usual human barriers as Paul wrote "In Christ there is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, but we are all one in Him." (Gal 3:28) I find that one of the most appropriate verses of scripture for a modern multi ethnic society.

Thank You for taking the time to contribute to this thread. I'm thoroughly enjoying reading all of the posts. However, I am slowly coming to the conclusion that many people have different views of what our identity is. Which is fair enough - as it's changed throughout history (and by contact with the global community). I guess it is questionable whether there is a single identity or not.
I have to agree that our identity has been constructed from popular images and myths. Australian artists and poets helped to create the Australian Budh Legend. Then there's painters like Tom Roberts, Charles Condor, Hans Heysen, Arthur Streeton - who made famous Australian images, there's poets like Banjo Patterson's "The Man From Snowy River," who further fulfilled this image of Australia. I came across the following website that might be of interest:

http://www.convictcreations.com/research/australianstereotypes.html

cont'd ...

ooops - my apologies for the typo. I meant to say, "Australian artists and poets helped to create the Australian Bush Legend..."

Albie Manton:>> Come wars, civil strife, cyclones, floods, droughts and always there will be that colonial spirit in abundance. My sprogs are Eurasian, and as proud of their Green & Gold and Cootamundra Wattle as their old man.<<

Albie thats exactly right, being an Aussie is not a birth right, it's a vibe and we identify another Aussie by that vibe not their grandfathers home town or how long they have been around.

AGIR is no Aussie

Real Aussies reject Bible

Crap and just have mates

When you all wake up tomorrow.....just smell the boat that your not in......:)and love Australia!....how can you not:)

All the best.

BLUE

AGIR

It matters a great deal how you treat others - I see how well you do that on these pages, none of your behaviour stems from your ancestry, your country of birth, or even your religion. It is about your level of compassion and civility towards others which would be the same whether your nationality be Iraqi or Irish.

I love Australia, I have travelled through a great deal of it. I have also traveled in other nations and can fully understand why the French and Spanish may adore the Pyrenees, the Vienamese the Halong Bay, the Americans the Grand Canyon - I am sympatico with the Aboriginal connection to the earth. That we feel somehow 'special' through simple accident of birth is very human and also a two-edged sword.

Beware who you cut in the name of patriotism.

I came here because I fell in love with the land when much younger and working here.

I bought my family here so that my children would become Australian although I did consider I may never be accepted unless my accent finally changes.

What I found was racism run literally riot. After a few years I discovered mateship here is about who you share the good times with, not the bad. A government that will not listen and does not care about people and a public that reflects it back, mirrors it sideways and passes it on down.

So here we are and most of my time is spent trying to balance letting the children become part of this country while encouraging them to reject the dominant attitudes.

You can define yourselves anyway you want but from the outside looking in the view is very different. I’m very very sad and extremely disappointed at what I had thought was going to be an optimistic and strong country with its peoples wellbeing as a priority has chosen to sit and become curdled with money, diplomatic relations, and bureaucratic arrogance as the main ingredients.

Still – probably puts you on par with the rest of the world so wouldn’t worry about it mate.

J Parker:

Beautifully put. I know from my family's experience that the most so called "patriots" in the "old country" who loudly proclaimed their
"patriotism" were the ones who ended up betraying that same country during World War II.

Jewely:

Some people may not understand how others could become migrants. Many could never leave Australia. However these people may deprive themselves of the most challenging, incredible experience, of going to another country. Of course it's not easy and there are ups and downs of adapting to life in a new country. Hopefully though your children will find that sense of belonging that you've missed out on.

Aw Lexi cheers but my sense of belonging is well intact as is my determination to not become one of the herd if said herd appears to have flawed leadership and attitudes. Or pack or alliance, guild, club, group, assembly crowd etc etc.

But watching some regular television last night (which I don’t often to) it suddenly occurred to me that you can judge a nation by its advertising. Those people have studied the country and know what works to get their product moving. It confirmed a lot for me.

Jewely,

Have to agree with you about being dubious of the herd mentality - especially as these days so much of it is contrived by the media.
I've hardly watched T.V. since the last election (haven't watched commercial telly for years) - I find it incredible that I've kicked the habit of watching the wonder window in the corner of the room, but there you go.
Of course, any true notion of Aussie identity emanating from the popular media is somewhat warped these days into a more standardised Western identity....interesting times.

Jewely:

I can't imagine you being part of any "herd." I agree with you about the Ads - there's some that make use of the Aussie Stereotypes. Men as useless dads - in the "Great Wall of China - Rabbits," comes to mind. And women as sex objects - in the "Antz Pantz Sic Em Rex," ad.
However, I've got to confess that the "We are one but we are many. And from all the lands on earth we come. We share a dream and sing with one voice. I am. You are. We are Australian..." brings a lump to my throat as does the Qantas TV ad - "I still call Australia Home."

Dear J Parker.... what you 'see' on these pages is my typing. You see nothing about how I 'treat' people I meet.

Just in case you've forgotten, this is an opinion forum with diametrically opposed and diverse opinions. They range from the 'ordinary' to the very passionate. I tend to be on the passionate end.

MULTICULTURAL RACIST GENOCIDE OF AUSTRALIAN IDENTITY may soon be over.

Reason...

1/David Cameron (after some severe prompting by the many thousands of EDL at Luton on Saturday) has now delcared "State sponsored Multi culturalism DEAD" (failed)

2/ Angela Merkel has made similiar declarations.

3/ The French are finally deporting Roma

4/ Defense Leagues are cropping up world wide.

5/ Unite Against Facism/Muslim Defense leagues can only manage tiny numbers in the low hundreds (which translate into THOUSANDS in the Socialist Worker reports) in their pathetic and treasonous counter protests.

Aussie Identity might yet be salvaged.. MC totally abandoned and a new era of non racist, pro Australian, inclusive Identity born as the Government changes course from trying to 'final solution' the Aussie Identity and starts to actually promote unity, harmony and a national identity.

Dear Al,

You're a bit of a worry.

"The French are finally deporting Roma"

mmm.......

"...promoting harmony and a national identity..."

mmm........

Would that be Christian harmony, Al?

Jewely most of my friends originate and come from countries other than Australia - 20 year friendships through thick and thin. I have been there for them, and new acquaintances, with most dilemmas they have encountered reciprocated.

A few friends from India
A few friends from Greece
A few friends from New Zealand
" " " " Tonga
One family from Lebanon [awaiting catch ups together]

and....I love their customs, stories about their backgrounds and accents.

There is a key or important factor to take into account nevertheless.

When people are working full-time and raising kids rarely is their time for people to be 'there for one another' to give a great deal.

Working long hours has taken its toll on many people and the financial side, however, some people will wake up to the fact that when they are about to depart this world and reflect, (myself included), what have we done for other people apart from working for payment in careers, jobs etc.

Its a fact that in spite of some Australians bagging the U.S. at times, most people who return from the States commend many United States people and children on their 'excellent manners' and 'hospitable natures'. On the other hand, many Americans have frequently complimented Australians visiting the U.S. about our friendly, warm and giving dispositions. Work colleagues return with many accounts and compliments received.

If we are a country who does not have any type of positive identity, some of which relate to laws and legislation, why do immigrants flock here, most of whom stay to raise their children and/or stay permanently? Many girlfriends originally from o/s and their parents refuse to consider returning to any of their countries of origin.

Oprah commented about Australians being the only country she had visited, whereby we had been the most hospitable, giving, friendliest, fun and outgoing people around the world.

Yes we do have an identity, although I am naturally patriotic yet non-discriminatory.

Lexi, "And women as sex objects - in the 'Antz Pantz Sic Em Rex,' ad."

Sex objects?!

Heh, heh, perhaps you could blame, make that applaud, women for recognising the sensuality and humour of women. The only male in it was Rex the echidna and he had a tongue for ants. Ad Agency: The Campaign Palace, Australia. Copywriter: Mara Marich, Art Director: Sarah Barclay.

Women don't have to be prudes any more. Men don't have all of the good ideas.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QXZqGI9zW0Y

Hi Poirot... still investigating these things ? :)

No..it would not be 'Christian' harmony, but social,cultural and legal harmony.

Surely you saw the doco about the Roma and their begging/thieving activities..and how this was an enculturated aspect of the whole community?

Christian harmony is something which is separate from community harmony.
We have our own harmony (or pitched battles :)which is based on a different foundation and is stable.

Social harmony is something which needs to be managed in terms of various factors such as racial and language mix, creeds and cultures.

S...trengths
W...eaknesses
O...pportunities
T...hreats.

You can only run a business on that basis and dare I say... a country too.

If you ran your business on the basis of

S...trengths
O...opporunties

but ignored your Weaknesses and Threats... you'd be outta business before you can say "redundancy payout"

David Cameron has been pursuing a process of 'Giffinization' in his public statements.. having learned from John Howard in his 'Hansonization' of his Liberal output back in dem days.

Poor old Griffo is rather annoyed about being shown to be 'right' at the cost of his electoral base being eroded.

Lexi challenging subject. There is a lot of fuss in some ways over national identity from the cultural perspective. Much of national identity is also tied up with political culture ie. principles of democracy/freedom, interaction with the rest of the world.

Mateship is often put forward as very Australian but it is often misunderstood IMO. Mateship had most relevance in the battlefield, however 'at home' mateship might often mean keeping 'mum' about important breaches of trust and faith or digging in late at the pub with your mates and coming home drunk to your family. Mateship often meant concealing atrocities - even if the issues were not always black and white. Some of those old fashioned perceptions of mateship have morphed into a more congenial version today and Australians are seen more than just beer swilling oafs.

Australians, probably due to a strong early representation of Irish ancestry, tend to be fairly easy going with a dry humour that is sometimes lost on other more 'literal' cultures. I found this even in the US where there is a lot in common, but the humour was often taken literally and the nuances lost in interpretation. The Brits and the Aussies tend to be more sympatico in that respect.

Patriotism is all very well in most circumstances, but if patriotism leads to the ill treatment of others causing great hardship via economic disparities, due to some warped sense of patriotism, it tends to rank a bit of the 'me me' attitude that is all too pervasive.

I have strayed a bit Lexi. Our national identity should be tied up with the way we treat and interact with the rest of the world.

Issues of national costume, flora and fauna, food, dances, anthems etc are only one facet of identity.

I guess if Oprah said it then it must be true and nothing to do with who helped out financially with the trip over or what that encouraged. I think I’ve heard her say the same thing about a number of countries as most celeb’s do.

But to answer why immigrants flock here – because their home country was crap in a lot of cases. Immigrants also flock to where I came from, the reasons aren’t usually flattering.

I don’t think I was focusing on the adverts that portrayed men or women in a certain light. Anti and the boys have made me super critical of MvsF adds anyways. It was more the completely stupid stupid statements made in adverts that give one the feeling that the whole industry sees the public it is targeting as morons.

But most of all I have noticed people do not care. I’m shocked at the agencies in Human Services where not a hint of humanity or compassion can be found and where middle management and down appear scared or cult like in their dealings with the public. If you look at the systems in place it becomes clear they are developed not to help people but to generate income in private industries.

So I guess I see the Australian Identity as a money making entity that defines its peoples worth in cash terms. And as long as footy, barbq’s and beer are continuously pushed as something the cool kids are doing then those systems grow bigger and uglier by the day.

I still love the land and the Aussie friends I now have. But the Australian public is circling the govt drain.

It's not all "mateship", you know.

"But why is Assange this way? The Guardian says he can’t help it: 'Men like Assange, who refer to women as ‘hotties’, hail from the land of coarse jokes about the one-eyed trouser snake.' Icelandic MP Birgitta Jonsdottir agrees, saying it is 'important to bear in mind the culture Assange comes from. He’s a classic Aussie in the sense that he’s a bit of a male chauvinist.'"

http://blogs.theaustralian.news.com.au/mediadiary/index.php/australianmedia/comments/female_editor_worth_a_party

There's your "classic Aussie", through the eyes of an independent observer. No much of the Gallipoli spirit shining through there. More the spirit of Bazza McKenzie.

As my mate Rabbie once said:

"O wad some Pow'r the giftie gie us.
To see oursels as others see us.
It wad frae monie a blunder free us.
An' foolish notion"

There is a difference, I think, between our - somewhat flattering - self-image, and an Australian "identity".

Good one, Pericles,

It's not uncommon for Dear Al to mention his Scottish forebears. I have discovered that mine were too. They hailed from Dumfries and were contemporaries of the Bard during his final years there. They are buried near him in St Michael's Churchyard...of course, it's not Fortrose Cathedral....

Btw, my biological father was apparently of Cherokee extraction - yet I still see myself as Australian...funny about that.

Oh Poirot :) you will LOVEEEEE this.

Maybe you already know it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1VqoxOcEqpk Cherokee morning song.

When I listen to it, and see the images of the natives... it reaches so unbelievably deep down into my soul...having lived with..and learned from..and married into.. such a group... I have such emphathy with the cherokee.. and other native Americans.

In the case of my wifes group.. they were not subjected to the unrelenting power of the white man... but have preserved both their numbers, dignity and self esteem. Only by a hairs breadth though.. the world almost lost them as a people.. (but for Christ)

I can't imagine the world without them... or with them so downtrodden by the white man that they could have ended up like many of our own Aboriginals.

I find my scottish background racially and my cultural exposure to the indigenous society has shaped me in ways unimaginable to myself when I look back to my youth.

Perhaps your native/scottish background is one reason I tend to gravitate in your direction on olo :) though I didn't know it.

But surely you see my point.. about 'One Nation One race One Culture'...in that neither you, me nor our children can lay claim to any ONE race.. other than the 'Australian' one...as people intermarry, they experience culture change, and spread this across a nation..and you have 'one' culture emerging over time.

The comments so far have been quite eye-opening - and I Thank You all for contributing to this discussion. I've recently come across a book entitled, "From Somewhere Else: People from other countries who have made Australia home," by Liz Thompson. I flipped through it again, and came across a chapter, "Feelings about Australia," that I thought may be of interest...The book was published in 1993.

The people interviewed for this book had many different feelings about Australia, but overall there was a sense that Australia was a country in which they could find themselves. They felt it enabled them to explore their own potential and redefine their lives.

George Carpenter - (England) had this to say:
"Forget all that sill propaganda about the lucky country. It's up to you if it's a good country or not. You've got to go out and earn money and buy a home for yourself. It's not a lucky country. It's up to individuals to make it a lucky country for themselves."

Venita Salnajs (Latvia) had this to say:
"If you have known hunger, it never leaves you. I think the experience of not having anything to eat is the most intense experience one can have. We came to this place where we live now in the spring, and there were apples forming, and there were pear trees and plum trees, and potatoes in the pasture. And I thought that if anything goes wrong in the world, we'll survive. We can live off the land. I think that my deep-down insecurity of hunger was satisfied with the relationship with the land."

I've only selected a few comments (due to the word limit) however, there were people from all over the world commenting, from Cambodia,
Yugoslavia, South Africa, Ghana Spain,Switzer;and, New Zealand, Argentina Guatemala,Greece, Turkey, Scotland, Germany, Hong Kong, France, Hungary,Sri-Lanka, Chile, China, just to name a few. We take for granted the cultural mix that is Australia's population today.

Dear Al,

I was adopted, so only found out through the years of my biological heritage - still, very interesting - and also surprising how much it means to me to know from whence I sprang.

I agree with you and Lexi about cultures merging within a country over a period of time.

Pericles,

Robbie Burns once referred to the brother of my great great great great grandfather as: "not having as many brains as a midge could lean its elbow on". (seems he was trying to dissuade Jessy Lewars from marrying him - and it worked!)

Australian playwright David Williamson wrote an article on the Australian Identity that may be of interest. It can be read at the following website:

http://www.mja.com.au/public/issues/179_11_011203/wil10716_fm-1.html

It looks like this topic has not run its course and I'd like to Thank Everyone who took the time to contribute to this discussion. There was a variety of opinions - and it made things interesting. See you on another thread.