Yesterday I went to buy Krispy cream doughnuts and noticed a sign on the wall verifiying that all their products used are authentic Halal products and there was an authorisation in this regard.

It concerned me. I also noticed this sign on my butchers wall.

I was brought up a Catholic and I feel uncomfortable being forced, through no choice, to eat products that have been processed under the Muslim religion and way.

It just seems wrong to me. If Muslims are not prepared to eat non Halal meat then why should Catholics or otherwise have to eat Halal meat.

Hi Jolanda.. I'm guessing that the area where these stores are, is one where there is a large segment of Muslim population ?
Presumably the marketing people think they can squeeze the nth dollar out of the public by guaranteeing they include the Muslims....
in short..its all about money.

That particular issue does concern me, but not overly in such an area.
I'm more concerned with official decisions which discriminate against in more direct ways. Halal meat is still good meat, and from a Christian point of view there is no issue with it.
Even if there is some religious ceremony performed,.. its still meat and Paul would say the important thing is not to cause a brother to stumble by eating it.

People won't know if ur buying halal or ordinary meat..and there is certainly no religious prohibition against we Christians eating it :)

If they only had signs in a non english language..then I'd be jumping up and down.
regards
BD

BOAZ-DAVID. I live in Miranda, in the Sutherland Shire, near Cronulla. There is a very limited Muslim population here.

I would like it not to bother me, but it does. I dont like to be fed other religions without my consent.

Hi Jolanda.. well... you should take it up as you feel with the local people who might assist you in this.

I would worry much more about this.. (another example of Islamic rules)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AIgFug6Rr3g&mode=related&search=

A Bahraini sheikh explaining how Allah allows us to beat our wives.

Please feel free to use that vid reference in support of the idea NOT to accept Sharia law by stealth as it appears your local stores have done.

Just one other 'commercial' point though, perhaps its the summer weekend trade that the stores are targeting ?
I still take your point and wish you well in persuit of your grievance resolution, but I think your energies would be better directed to the overall 'sharia by stealth' issue.

Jolanda: "I dont like to be fed other religions without my consent."

That's nearly as silly as eating fish instead of meat on Fridays. For once I agree with Boaz (at least in his first post) - meat's meat, viz. the flesh of dead animals that many people comsume.

Mind you, he has been known to carry on like a pork chop when it comes to ham sandwiches...

It's not a real problem for me, because my missus is a vegetarian and I eat pepperoni pizza on Fridays :)

CJ Morgan if a person chooses to eat Fish on Fridays it is their right and choice but if a minority group takes all the meat off the shelves and closes all the butchers on Fridays (or any other day for that matter) so that people cannot eat meat then that is another story.

I have a concern in relation to this as I do not feel comfortable at all eating meat that has been blessed as Muslim meat. That I choose to eat meat is my business.

If it means that much to Muslims that they will not eat meat without it being processed religiously and they want to make it so that all our meat and all products and fast food outlets are processed in their religious way then we should be very concerned. When we are all eating Halal meat and products, through no choice, we are all practicing Muslim religious ways. It has to do with control. The Muslim religion does not budge and they are set in their ways that means that they expect the tolerant Catholics to change to thier ways. There is nothing fair about that. He who is the most tolerant looses. They don't budge, they expect us to change and little by little they are succeeding. I dont believe that it is fair that those of other religions should be forced to eat meat and products processed in a significant 'religious way' of which the consumer does not agree or practice.

CJ. the issue with halal/non-halal meat does not deprive me of meat of any kind.
Denial of ham sandwiches does...and is outright culinary discrimination on the basis of religious identity. All I ever suggested in that case was simple common sense. If the 13% Muslims want halal food.. GIVE them a table of it and the problem is solved.

Offering only halal meat simply means its the same meat but the blood has been drained more thoroughly. Its still meat, and I assure you, I don't live for the 'blood taste' in meat. In fact, that is one of the things the first Christian council made a point of (Acts 15) refrain from Blood (due to its close association with idolatrous worship.)

My song and dance about the ham sambo's was in reality a performance about Sharia by stealth, and if I get a whiff of it in any level of socieity I'll ramp up the performance to blockbuster level :)

Here is Sharia Law
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e6ZzSNAKbvE

and here is its impact on Christians.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJRcKcjJM9w

I'd be interested in your take on that last one, because I see it as 'lawful protest/worship' in the light of discriminatory application of the permit law and is in the category of the non violent African American civil rights protests which I'm sure u support

BOAZ_David. It's not still meat when it has been processed the Halal way. It is Halal meat - blessed in a religious Muslim way and it has meaning and significance. Muslims wouldn't eat it if it wasn't processed so that means that it isn't the same as non Halal meat.

I dont have a problem with Muslims processing their own meat and products for their own consumption, in their religious ways, but I do have a problem when they make it so that people do not have a choice and it is fed to everybody.

They should provide people with a choice. Problem is that its cheaper just to do it the Muslim way - but at what cost!! There is a purpose and a significance in the production of Halal meat and products and people should stop to consider as I believe that there is reason for concern.

Boaz, I was about to suggest that you take greater care with your selection of "evidence" from YouTube - after all, it is a totally untrustworthy medium, with no editing, selection or peer review process. But sometimes you surprise me with your choice - and the one where the Imam was describing "how to beat your wife" absolutely blew me away.

>>Here is Sharia Law
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e6ZzSNAKbvE <<

I assume that you posted it without irony, as a self-confessed (right here on OLO) daughter-beater.

The gentle Imam in the video was explaining, compassionately and thoughtfully, the physical limits of such action, and as I watched it I thought "Boaz would certainly approve of this."

"The husband is held liable... woman is not his merchandise... cannot do what he wants... even if she forgives him."

This takes me right back to your daughter-beating post where you claimed

>>Smacking appropriately is not abuse<<

Out of curiosity - because I was one of those people who took you to task about your willingness to physically assault your daughter - which part of it did you object to?

Or did you, in fact, post it as living proof that you and Islam do, in fact, have more in common than you thought?

That really would be a breakthrough!

The laws of slaughter proscribed for Muslims, Jews, and in the Old Testament are all the same.

Rather than eating meat that has been prepared according to Islamic precepts, you can look it as meat prepared according to the dietary rules of the Old Testament.

Since the new testament Christians haven't had to follow these rules, but they're in no way contrary to your faith.

Personally I don't like the way the meat is bleed out losing its juices (that are important for tenderizing the meat)... but there's no idealogical problem.

Yes. Halal refers only to the method of killing. You would not know the difference, which leads us to the matter of trade practices with regard to the claim that the butcher supplies halal meat - particularly if the location is not particularly Muslim.

How does the customer, including a Muslim, know for sure that the meat is halal? He/she doesn't of course, which just points out the nonsense of the whole thing.

Jolanda, do you have opportunity to shop elsewhere? If so ask the butcher if they have non-halal meats and if not let them know you are taking your business elsewhere and why.

You might want to check that your new butcher does not pray for their customers or otherwise add their own religious additives to your purchase if that stuff bothers you.

Personally I'm more with the group that suggest that as long as what is being done does not physically impact on the product in a negative manner or restrict my choice then so what.

At a guess BD will be praying for most of us from time to time without our consent, if that takes up time that he could otherwise spend trying to restrict the rights of gays or defame peace loving mossies then it's probably a good thing.

R0bert

This is all about marketing - nothing more and nothing less.
Somebody is targetting somebody else to get some of their money.
To link this with some sort of quasi-religious conspiracy is just plain crazy.

The link would probably have to be MONEY.

The stunning process prior to slaughter was made a requirement for humane reasons-- so there exists the issue of the wretched animals having their throats cut and conscious..I'm not too fussed about being expected to negate my sensibilities to accomodate someone else's culture.

I guess that if you want some pork chops you can't get them at a Halal butcher. I imagine a halal butcher selling pork or a leg of ham wouldn't get many Islamic customers. It also follows that a Halal sign would deter a lot of non-muslims because of images of honour killings, terrorism etc. associated with the religion. It would be rather weird to wait behind a women under a black sheet in a butcher shop.

Jolanda... you may have a case there on the 'taste' issue...
if you can show that there are significant differences in taste, and then, if there is a particular religious ceremony performed over the meat, then you would have grounds for suggesting discrimination.

Its worth exploring anyway if u feel strongly about it
cheers

The process of turning our meat into Halal meat isn't so obvious that they remove all the pork and have their woman staff wear burkas. The butcher shops that I am talking about are run by Australians and have seen the sign in more than one butcher. They just have a sign on the wall, an authorisation and authentication stating that their meat and products have been processed in accordance with the Halal tradition and ways and it is certified by the Islamic Association.

I guess removing the pork/ham will probably be next. It has happened in some hospitals, as well as removing bibles, not wanting Australians to wave flags etc etc. All so as to show the Muslims respect and not offend the Muslims.

But what about the non Muslims? What about the Catholics and otherwise? Why is there more respect afforded to Muslims and their beliefs and ways than what they are prepared to afford to others.

The Muslims are not prepared to accept and respect the Australian traditions and ways, they want us to change to accomodate them. Why should we change in ways that are contrary to our culture, this is Australia they came here so surely they should change.

Pericles.. you do go on don't u ..*ouch*....

Do you not see a difference between parental discipline of immature children and the dealings with ones mature wife ?

If you don't then I presume its that surreal reasoning which brought you to say that the keeping of domestic pets is 'slavery' which is again in 'drive' in your head......

The Bible is quite clear that discipline, including 'the rod'(clearly in a limited way) is a valid parental disciplinary tool in regard to immature children whos very lives may depend on the parents sorting out an unsafe life threatening attitude.

In contrast, a man is called to "love his wife as his own body and as Christ loved the church and gave Himself up for her"

The Bible in no way shape or form suggests a man can 'beat' his mature wife. I have nothing furhter to say or add on that matter, and if you do, then please take it back to the particular thread and don't use it as an excuse to hijack this one into a 'Boaz Bashing' one.

There would be irony, if I was regularly beating my own wife, and then criticizing Islam for allowing it. Keep apples with apples.

I'll assume you were being sarcastic in the extreme when you described the sheikh.

BOAZ_David. When something impacts on how you feel then it impacts on how it goes down.

I do feel that it is wrong to eat meat processed the Muslim way, it just doesn't feel right to me. Muslims wont eat meat the other way and everybody understands and respects that, but some people dont understand or respect that some people might also find it a problem to eat Halal meat. It makes me not want to eat meat. Does it taste different? Yes, because I no longer want to eat it as it feels wrong.

I have a strong survival instinct and that little voice inside is telling me that this is wrong. We shouldn't have to eat products, through no choice, that have been processed as a significant religious way and that have such relevance to a different religion.

If Muslims want their meat processed a certain way then they should pay for it, but leave the mainstream stuff alone.

You may be interested to know that the mammals and birds that may be eaten must be slaughtered in accordance with Jewish law. (Deuteronomy. 12:21).

So what about Kosher foods? Any objection to those?

Leviticus 7:26-27 and 17:10-14. says that we do not eat blood because the life of the animal (literally, the soul of the animal) is contained in the blood. This applies only to the blood of birds and mammals, not to fish blood. Thus, it is necessary to remove all blood from the flesh of kosher animals. Did Jesus revoke these laws or are they still current?

Does this therefore imply that all people who eat non-Halal and non-kosher foods are disobeying God's dietary laws?

I think some of you are just continuing to look for reasons to dislike Muslims, no matter how feeble or nonsensical they are.

Why not just attack the marketers who provide these options and ask them to stop?

Jolanda.. Rache has a point on the Kocher meat. But since the New Testament, I don't think that has been so rigidly followed to the finest letter of the religious law. When the first council of the Apostles said "refrain from blood" they connected it with animals which had been strangled, which ensured the blood was still in the animal and was associated with idolatry. Kocher is probably the other extreme, of ensuring "all" blood is removed. The biblical principle in both cases was 'not taking blood' in a way which was related to idolatry. So, the small amount of blood left after a typical abbotoir slaughter is insignificant.

That said. If you have strong feelings about the matter, I urge you to persue it via the chanels open to you. If you can find others who share your feelings, then invite them also to participate in your struggle. Heck.. I'f I'm in Sydney at the time I'll have my sign outside the butcher shop :)

But indeed..make enquiries, raise awareness.. the more important issue framework for me is 'creeping Sharia by stealth'. So, in that sense I'll support your stand.

Personally, I'm much more concerned with the health risks of eating "Krispy cream doughnuts", with their embodiment of the American religion of fast food and obesity, than with the consumption of halal or kosher foods.

What an idiotic thread. Jolanda has claimed elsewhere to have a high IQ, but that's not very evident in what she's written here...

With the greatest respect, Boaz...

>>I have nothing furhter to say or add on that matter, and if you do, then please take it back to the particular thread and don't use it as an excuse to hijack this one into a 'Boaz Bashing' one<<

The discussion is on halal meat. You introduce corporal punishment. How does that make me the hijacker?

And no, I was not being sarcastic.

Did you actually watch the video? Or just see the title and think "hey, that's a good illustration of Muslim barbarism, I'll rouse the rabble with that"

You are a slippery little customer, you know. And you don't even have the grace to blush when found out.

CJ Morgan. I have never said that I have a high IQ. I said that I am exposed to alot of high IQ and the concern of those with a high IQ is as great as mine.

Did it ever occur to you that the problem might be your IQ.

Urgh. How ridiculous.

The sales pitch of a vendor is a representation of a market. Because there is a market for halal, sale of halal exists. There is also a market for pig products. Therefore, pig products exist.

The bottom line is a butcher can sell their meat however they want. Because we live in a free country, any vendor of food is free to sell halal, kosher, whatever. And you're free to shop elsewhere if you have a problem with it.

I mean, seriously. What else is there?

Spot on, CJ.

And Jolanda, why don't you open your own meat shop? and possibly perform all activities in the supply chain of meat production, from rearing the animals to serving it in your meal? that way you could be sure, absolutely.

Jolanda, one last thing, Money talks.

Pericles..

"Keeping of domestic pets is slavery"
"The gentle Imam in the video was explaining, compassionately and thoughtfully, the physical limits of such action" (i.e. beating ones spouse)

Word to Pericles wife.. "Watch out"

Yep.. that kind of says it all. Nothing to blush about at my end mate.

Nice tap-dance Boaz.

>>Word to Pericles wife.. "Watch out"<<

But as I mentioned before, you are the self-confessed advocate of administering physical punishment to young women, not I. And as I recall, quite proud of it.

So what, exactly, should my wife fear? Yours, on the other hand, has already seen you beat your daughter. On the balance of probabilities, your wife has more to be concerned about than mine.

Let me remind you once again of how this arose.

In the middle of a civilised discussion on the nature of Halal meat, you inject a gratuitous jibe, presumably selected to illustrate the "barbarism" of Islam. Unfortunately, the topic you chose was corporal punishment, which you had previously supported, quite vehemently as I recall, as a suitable punishment for adolescent females.

Sorry, but that's hypocrisy in my book.

Now let the good people get back to their discussion on foodstuffs.

Pericles
my wife has had 28 yrs with me without a finger being laid on her, not even wishing to.. she has nothing to worry about, but if one took that little message of the sheikh and the Quran to heart I shudder to think of what alternative mindset one might have. I certainly know its a big issue among Malaysian Muslim women.

I stand by corporal punishment for children, but there is no 'pride' in administering it to my daughter..don't confuse "getting attention to a topic" with pride.

Enuf on this already. Back to Jolandas topic.

BOAZ_David. My husband has also never laid a finger on me and we have known each other since our teens. Nearly 30 years. That is what is normal. It goes without saying. That some think otherwise is a concern.

On my topic: I fear that I do not have the strength to take on the matter with the Halal meat. I am already fighting the system in relation to other issues, allegations and complaints and I cant take on any more at this stage.

This Halal meat issue is a very serious problem because it sets a precedent. If the Muslim belief is strong enough to encrouch on the belief of others and they get the rights then, if they challenge, they will always win. Eventually it becomes a take over by Stealth. If that is the right way to use the word stealth DAVID. But I hope you know what I mean.

I have nothing against Muslims, I have a Muslim brother in law, nephew and neice. I just have a problem with some of the ways of those that are somewhat extreme and I dont ever want to ever live like that. I fear that in order not to offend them we will be expected to sell our soul.

Forgive my facetiousness Boaz, but my first thought when you said...

>>my wife has had 28 yrs with me without a finger being laid on her, not even wishing to.<<

... was yep, I bet she's on her best behaviour at all times, knowing the guy she's with is the sort that beats adolescent girls.

But that is simply too low, even for me.

have a great day

yes Pericles.. it is too low, but its ok.

Jolanda.. it sounds like you might benefit greatly from a support group of some kind.

May I ask, if ur involved in any Bible study or home fellowship group ? I am and it provides great enouragement and a place to blurt out one's frustrations and victories..and experiences, and receive comfort and encouragement.

I think these days, battles cannot be fought on our own.. we do need to have fellow soldiers.
If I was in Sydney, I'd be quite happy to make a bit of a fuss on your behalf :) maybe ask the shop owner whats going on..and stand outside the shop with a sign.. or who knows.. there are many 'ways and means' of getting the story awareness raised. Why not write to the Daily Terrorgraph and tell them ? They tend to drool over that kind of thing. (its worked for me in the past)
Without going into detail here, lets just say.. if ur interested in just how much can be done.. and what impact can be acheived, I can share it with you.
You could ask Graham to forward your email to me and use this as my authority/permission for that, then I'll let you know.. its quite staggering actually.
Be strong.. and be encouraged, you are not alone in this.

Yes David, I would benefit from a support group but not of some kind – of the supportive fellow citizens kind. Unfortunately more often than not it is lacking.

I am so disappointed with the way Australia has been heading and it’s such a shame

Of course with the Internet things are changing as more people communicate and absorb other views. This means there is hope.

I don’t have the strength to take on the Halal issue. There isn’t enough support out there. It's just banging your head.

My head is already very battered and bruised.

I have a blog where I set out my travels and I have an email address there it's called Education - Keeping them Honest http://jolandachallita.typepad.com/education/

My second wife, who, like me, originally came here from England, learned Belly Dancing and became very good at it. She had the looks and the ability and a partner [me] who isn't jealous by nature. As some of you may recall, I sadly lost her a few years ago. [I am now fortunate to be in a long term loving relationship with a delightful Japanese lady, who is a trained Japanese and Asian cook, and foodwise this has added a new dimension to my life.]

My second wife performed at many functions where it was obviously appropriate to have Halal food and that never made any difference to either of us, or apparently to any other non-Muslims who happened to be there. There was always food which we enjoyed and we also enjoyed trying some types of food which may have been new to us. I see this as one of the advantages of living in Australia.

I suppose I've never really thought about the possible implications of eating Halal food, but I don't see that there are any. If I do anything in my normal life which doesn't [to me] adversely affect me in any way, but perhaps makes others feel comfortable, then I'm happy to fit in.

And if I was involved in the hospitality, entertainment or food industries, then I'd do my homework and provide Halal food if I thought it was to my financial advantage to do so. Yes, as easy as that!

What does concerm me is religious attitudes, often minority ones, which are forced onto the wider community and really do adversely affect people who see things differently. Situations which come to my mind include the refusal of Australian governments to legalise voluntary euthanasia and the generally ridiculous attitude in Australia which prevents the provision of free beaches [clothes optional] in many areas.

Rex if those of the Muslim religion want everything to change to suit them as it makes them happy then what? At what point do you stop it.

We are setting a precedent that is not in our best interest.

Oh and one more thing Rex. See if I went to a Lebanese Muslim resturant. I would expect to be served Halal meat and I would go there knowing that.

If I go to an Australian restaurant I would not expect to have to eat Halal meat just to make Muslims happy when it doesn't make me happy and it is to me a concern.

That Muslims dont have the same sense of tolerance and respect for our views and our beliefs is a worry.

Tolerance is going to be our undoing as it doesn't seem to go both ways.

I'm not having a go at you, Jolanda. I'm not saying that it shouldn't bother you, I'm saying that it doesn't bother me.

As for precedents, Australians, including the original Australians, have been manipulated, regulated and legislated against to suit various aspects of Christianity ever since white settlement, and this is still going on. Some may say that this is OK, because we allegedly have a "Christian Heritage", but I don't agree with this reasoning.

I've had jobs in Australia where, for no good reason [is there ever a good reason?] I've been forced to wear the traditional English male national dress, the suit and tie. Why? It doesn't suit our climate and it's often uncomfortable and inappropriate to what we're actually doing. It wastes power and is environmentally harmful when airconditioning is unnecessarily turned on or turned up, because the men are ridiculously overdressed. This is far more important to me than eating Halal food, but others are allowed to think differently if they wish, or indeed not think about it at all

I don't like the fact that Kraft Foods, the makers of Vegemite, is an associate company of Philip Morris Tobacco, so what do I do about it? I don't buy Kraft Foods products, that's what.

As an open minded, generally freedom-of-choice person, I don't want to be controlled to suit various restrictive aspects of the Muslim religion, or the Christian or any other religion either, for that matter. But I'm not going to make a fuss about something that really doesn't bother me, am I? And neither am I going to criticise you for seeing this particular aspect of the Muslim religion differently to how I see it.

And if I saw it as fitting my business interests to manufacture/sell/serve Halal food, then I'd make a business decision on that. Those prospective clients who saw things differently would be free to do what I choose to do about Kraft Foods, not patronise my business.

Rex you are not forced to wear a certain type of clothing in any job - you might be required to - but you are not forced. You could just leave your job if you didn't like it. But when Halal meat is everywhere and you are not given a choice then you either have to stop eating meat or go and live in another country.

It is a concern because we are being deprived of choice and Halal meat is a religious issue. So religious and important that Muslims will not eat any meat or products that haven't been processed in this way - no matter what. It's not just something minor it is a very significant issue in the Muslim religion and way. Maybe you dont see it now, but time always tells.

"Rex you are not forced to wear a certain type of clothing in any job - you might be required to - but you are not forced. You could just leave your job if you didn't like it. But when Halal meat is everywhere and you are not given a choice then you either have to stop eating meat or go and live in another country."

Agreed, Jolanda, but if you have trained and maybe also got specialised qualifications for a certain kind of employment, then you may feel that you really have no option than to comply with a ridiculous and potentially environmentally harmful dress code. And if you do voluntarily leave your job and can't immediately get other suitable employment, then you may find yourself unable to get Centrelink payments either.

What happens next? You can't pay your mortgage, or make your car payments. You lose your home and all your possessions. Your marriage falls apart and you're a broken man. But you stood by your principles, didn't you? I think that I'd sooner eat Halal meat than endure this scenario, but we're all different, aren't we?

Incidentally, I stopped wearing a suit and tie for work when I was WA Wheatbelt manager for an insurance company in the 1970s. The state manager tried to stand over me, but I ignored him and got away with it. But few men would even try this.

Back to topic. I'm probably going to go shopping this afternoon and will be buying meat. I don't think I'll have a problem getting non-Halal meat, but I'll let you know.

Well, I did my food shopping at both Woolworth's and at a fairly large independant supermarket. I checked out the meat sections at both and bought a number of meat items. I saw no reference to Halal in either store.

We do have Muslim people, who are recognisable by the ladies' headscarves, living and shopping in this area. I have no idea how they handle their food shopping requirements. I don't recall seeing any ladies in veils and/or bhurkas around here, but I've seen plenty of men in suits and ties on century heat days, which I regard as evidence of brainwash derived from a foreign culture. One time I saw a Muslim girl wearing a headscarf and tight jeans in our local shopping centre and I thought, "Good on you, for choosing the style of dress which suits the image you have of yourself". Incidentally, I've see this style of dress combination in Bali, too.

I've just enjoyed a pork cutlet for lunch. As someone who rationalised his views of Christianity [my upbringing] at 15, I've thought for a long time that I wouldn't have religion telling me what I could, or couldn't eat and drink. What's that got to do with loving your neighbour as yourself?

It's the local Christian fundamentalists who we need to keep an eye on around here. We've had a clothes optional beach for over 30 years, and it was formally legalised in 1989, with substantial public approval and relatively little opposition. Since then, it's never caused any social problems, but that hasn't stopped the fundies from periodically complaining about it and trying to have it closed down

Thats great Rex. I am so glad you enjoyed your experience.

I wonder what chances you will have to change things when you go out and things have already changed.

We have to deal with issues before they get out of control not wait until afterwards.

Jolanda

I have watched your posts for a while and find you interesting.

Where do I even begin.

I feel like screaming from the roof tops but not the posters just our Government.

Firstly you are correct 'in a way 'to get your back up somewhat.

Years ago The Islamic Leaders approached our Government and requested all meat be slaughtered Halal In Australia.

The scarey part is- this in itself was not really a problem to the Government however other issues came forward.


In export yes we have some laws and AQIS do attend.

In local plants or abattoirs it is not always the case.

We even have mobile Muslim slaughtermen running around slaughtering in peoples back yards right here in Australia- In the city!

I will explain the difference between some slaughtering methods for starters.
A - Aussie way- Bolt between eyes[head, known as a stun gun= Normally quick and renders animal unconshious- throat slit straight after.[
It is in fact interesting to note no more than twelve seconds can be allowed for the whole of this process to run a succesful plant.
halal.

The word Halal means lawful to Islamic Law. A animal must not be dead before having its thoat cut.

There has been much! trouble over humaine slaughter methods.

Halal plants in Australia for export use a stun gun.

This is like a mushroom which renders an electric shock through the Animal before its throat it cut.

It works reasonable well on sheep and smaller animal but there are some real problems with large animals such as cattle.

Before you brand Halal cruel we have Kosha.

In all my years of work nothing! comes close to the cruel Kosha method.

I know meat workers as hard as nails who have thown up and almost cried.

So yes Jolanda- You are correct to think when you go shopping and wonder whats behind it all.


Thank You for this thread

I wish people should care about what is the kidest method before anything else.

hello Rex

Shes got a good point. By the way did you know most Kentucy fried chicken is slaughter Halal?

Actually I am informed all of it by the halal CEO of Australia.

Would I be bothered about that.? I am concerned about having the highest degree of animal welfare.

Wheat Boad manager. Thats interesting.

Were you aware of any live export companies running their transport through there around that time?

Funny you should mention the wheat Board we just send a half a dozen strippers to stand outside tbhe AWB enquiry to let the public know it wasnt just wheat money.

Talk about 'missed oportunitys' for labour. Old Rudd headed for the hills. It makes me mad to see missed oportnitys for both the country and the animals.

Jolanda does have a point.

To be honest with you Jolanda we a Directors of a company Halal Kind Meats but - I can see where you are coming from.

The really interesting thing you need to know is many Muslim leaders and people are more than happy to form co joint ventures right here in Australia.

Wonder why the Government dont push that.

Could it be the trade dollar comes before Animal Welfare.

Is it possibly our farmers have been mislead by the National Party who have sold them out and allowed the country to be flooded with cheap imports.
Has Jolanda a very good point that needs to be openly discussed now.
Well I think so anyway
.
David sorry I didnt reply on your last thread.
I will repond tonight.
Thanks for your patience but it was out of my control

You can probably guess.

I must say there are some really good comments on this thread all round

"I wonder what chances you will have to change things when you go out and things have already changed.

We have to deal with issues before they get out of control not wait until afterwards."

I agree with you, Jolanda, but when it comes to "issues" we all have different priorities and we can't possibly find the time to "deal with" everything, can we? And with so many controversial, and often worthwhile and pressing issues, it's a good thing that we don't all have the same priorities anyway, isn't it?

I'll tell you a little about myself. I've been president of a very active, and sometimes necessarily militant community association. Represented another community association on an environmental committee. Head of a large local Neighbourhead Watch. An active member of the organisation which helped to stop tobacco advertising in Western Australia.

I've actively campaigned on such things as retention of heritage buildings, stopping inappropriate developments, retention of public access to foreshores, anti-nuclear and a fair go for those who prefer to swim nude. And my second wife and I marched in the Perth Gay Mardi Gras, back in the days when it was supposed to be controversial.

If none of these fit your priorities, then you'll get no criticism, implied or expressed, from me.

And I'm just about a founder member of the WA Greens. That doesn't mean that I necessarily agree with all the Greens policies or priorities, but I do see myself as a thinking person with a social conscience. Some would regard my association with the Greens as evidence to the contrary of course. LOL

cont

I remember seeing sheep slaughtered in a small WA Wheatbelt abattoir in the 1970s, when I was there on insurance business. This was nothing to do with Halal or Kosher, just the way it was done there at that time. The sheep stood in a line and stepped forward, one at a time, and had their throats cut, with no other intervention. I grew up in the country in Yorkshire, back in the days when general farming practices were often different to how they are now, but I must say that I found it confronting. But I also realised that the sheep were not scared or alarmed at what was happening right in front of them.

And I also realised that few of us will depart this life in such a stress free and pain free manner. And I could point the finger at elements of the Catholic Church, the stalwarts of the so-called Right to Life movement, for some aspects of that, couldn't I. But, unless you are an active member of Right to Life, I would no more blame you for this than I would blame my many Catholic friends who think as I do on voluntary euthanasia.

Incidentally, before anyone criticises these particular abattoir workers over this, I also saw the different way in which they treated the cattle, which they explained to me were, unlike the sheep, aware of what was happening. In this respect they certainly showed their humaneness.

I find it scary how Muslim matters are always looked upon religiously by the people even if they are political.

I find it scary because I believe that they do this so as to get protection under the anti-discrimination Act. Race, often presented as religion, is protected under the Act. It is in their best interest to present everything as a race and religious matter.

If Halal meat is a also not a religious matter and it means lawful to Islamic Law and all our meat is being processed as Halal then the question has to be asked

”How can our Government allow this to happen without asking us?”.

People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming I will respond later but I must say I fully agree with you that the way animals are ALLOWED TO BE treated is inhumane.

Rex

Rightly so re the Aussie Plant workers in WA.

I would be curious as to why a bolt was not used to pre stun even back then. Are you saying this was a Halal Plant?

It sounds like it was a domestic plant for local supply.

I have little knowledge of WA but most probably its long closed and the supply is now redirected to Live Animal Exports like so many others .

Something tells me you must have made some enquires when you visted that abattoir.

By your profile you seem to be a person who might be decent enough to ask some questions.

They probably fed some porkies or sincerly were not aware of the real facts.

No Rex you cant slaughter animals in front of each other without causing them stress.

Never could.

You have my vote on the right for life by the way and a few others.

I received a call from a lady and her husband holidaying just after Xmass.

She enquired where she could purchase Halal Meat.



This became a serious problem for her family.



Jolanda This ones for you at the risk of getting a slap on the rist from all sides.

Dr Morey director of reaserch writes in one of his books>

Mohammad On Women

Muhammad taught that the majority of the people in hell were women!

The prophet said,' "I was shown the hell fire and that the majority of its dwellers were women"[ vol1, nos.28,301,vol2,no 1611.

[ Smile- I thought you might like that one.

It would be unfair of me not to add I have shared many laughs with Muslim people on that.

Many more have spoken out about the cruelty of live exports and begged the Government to slaughter in Australia.

Be it Aussie slaughter or Halal I think the first and foremost question people SHOULD be asking is was this animal slaughtered as close to home and quickly and painlessly as possible.

May the best God Speak up for the Animals.

Mean time we will continue to ask both! for help.

A bit of personal trivia.

During my RAAF years in Richmond NSW I had some accrued leave, and we Rif Raffers would often go to the local Abbotoirs at Rivestone to pick up some casual work during off time.
I went..for 2 days.. I felt like I was in hell.

My job was the first bloke on the line after the sheep had their throats cut, after which they were hung in these hook things upside down. (back feet only) They arrived to me up the stairs from the slaughter area still kicking, shaking, and bleeding. I had to push two sheep at a time forward so another bloke could hook their front paws into other hooks, after which their skins were ripped off.

Some were still alive when their skins were ripped off them.

I lasted 30minutes on that before I was out of energy, both emotional and physical. So they put me in the 'rendering' section.. aka Dante's inferno. Myyyyyy goodness.. a long line of huge boiler things, steam everywhere.. and large cauldrons on blocks and tackles.
All the other workers had bandages and dressings over their heads arms and necks.. After a while I asked why, they said due to the wounds inflicted by the unpredictable spitting of the poorly maintained boilers of molten fat on them.
Then I had to climb up and stand knee deep in a caulron of mush..comprising partially rendered heads and feet etc..which I had to shovel into these rail trolley things.

Hmm.. come to think of it.. it WAS HELL... if I am ever reduced to having that as my only choice of work, I'll say a quick prayer asking forgiveness and drink some concentrated roundup. No offense to any meatworker here.. I'm sure things are better now.

Other than that.. there are many interesting points here being raised. I was not aware that the Muslims had requested all meat be slaughtered halal and that underlines the importance of the debate about cultural intrusion by minorities.

David I had an idea that all our meat was being processed the Halal way. How else can a place like Krispy Cream donughts or local butchers be able to access Halal meat. I couldn't say for sure because I didn't know for sure but it doesn't surprise me.

The fact that it is a Islamic Law matter is a serious concern. How can our Government be so blase in relation to matters of such significance and that set such precedents. How can they not realise the implications of what they have done.

Our Government would sell our soul to protect their own reputation and position of power.

I really am interested to know what Muslims think about this. Do they think it is fair and right? Would they agree with the opposite being done in their Country?

David
Appreciate your sharing

Little's changed. Malaysia's keen to increase trade with Australia.
Instead of the “State Governments- Labour actually developing a policy to support Australia they have signed contracts to send more alive overseas 'with our jobs and knowing! their treatment.

Bare with me Jolanda its connected. A few days ago again! we had Australian Animals chased dowbn Streets and attacked with axes. Whats JH saying and his Minister - Gee Wiz they promised me they wouldnt do that anymore!!
We ship out the jobs and then they sell it back to Australian Muslims and the billion dollar world wide market. Yes Jolanda eventually that’s all that will be available.

If we can stop live exports we can start "then insist" on improvements especially at the local plants save our jobs and have control over standards in our own country.

If we dont ?
David A little off topic but your kind offer on your other thread to have me post the letter to Salivation Army re drought Appeal is gratefully accepted.
I could not reply at the time.
I was wondering if you might perhaps open another thread at some stage and invite input into the letter.
You have a real gift David with your writing.


I don’t believe a religion [any religion] should be the guideline for slaughter methods.

It should be the kindest to the animal.

You are correct it does outline the importance of the debate about cultures.

As I said Kosher is THE cruelest of all.
.

Not all abattoirs In Australia are Halal[ Yet].
If we can’t agree on religion we should at least agree to slaughter in a method of the MOST humane manner
Then Kosher, Christian, Muslim people who DON’T like that and WON’T except that should as you mentioned David go to Hell.

Jolanda Muslims don’t mind people eating non Halal products. However it is forbidden to them

Please see many pages Halal Australia
http://www.google.com.au/search?q=halal+meat+foods+australia&hl=en&cr=countryAU&start=0&sa=N

This one is of particular interest>.

http://www.dfat.gov.au/geo/malaysia/fta/factsheets/agribusiness.html

Antje Struthmann

Antje - Why should Muslim people mind others eating non Halal meat? I don't mind others eating Halal meat.

I dont like the idea that Halal meat has been forced onto the people without any debate or imput from Australians requested by our Government. That was a rather large decision to make on their own!!

I despair when I think of the animals. Stressing animals is the same as stressing humans. It triggers Mycoplasma infections in animals and this disease is highly contagious and makes animals, including humans, very lethargic and sick.

It is in our healths interest that our meat is slaughtered in the most humanely way.

Jolanda.

You misunderstood me. Animals slaughtered in a non halal way are forbidden meat "To Muslims". It is 'Haram' [forbidden] "to them "

http://www.google.com.au/search?
hl=en&q=haram+non+halal+meat+forbidden&btnG=Google+Search&meta=cr%3DcountryAU

Read From Here>
We may eat with them and they with us. But this general proclamation of permission is preceded by a reiteration of the statement: ‘All good things have been made lawful to you.’ This indicates that if the People of the Book either do not observe those principles of cleanliness and purity which are considered obligatory by the Law or if their food includes prohibited items, then one should abstain from eating them.

If, for instance, they either slaughter an animal without pronouncing the name of God or if they slaughter it in the name of anyone else but God it is not lawful for us to eat that animal.

Likewise, if intoxicating drinks, the flesh of swine, and any other prohibited thing is found on their dining table we may not justify our partaking of such items on the ground that the persons concerned are People of the Book.

The same applies to those non-Muslims who are not People of the Book, except for one difference-that whereas the animals slaughtered by the People of the Book are lawful provided they have pronounced the name of God at the time of slaughtering them, we are not permitted to eat the animals killed by non-Muslims who are not People of the Book.”

Jolanda

Muslims regard meat very differently to us.
I know I will offend many a good Muslim person by puting it this way to you. Its as important to them as our Beer is to Aussies.
I have always thought personally that Mohamed had marketing skills and what better way to control an industry!

He who has control of the meat industry world wide- rules.
Australians have no control as our Governments both! labour and the Libs stick their heads in the sand.

Its a six hundred billion dollar per year Industry and close to more like a trillion dollar.
Thats a lot of control leaving aside Animal Welfare concerns

I've been wondering how much meat - halal or otherwise - is involved in the creation of a "Krispy cream doughnut" anyway? The very notion inspires mental images that make me slightly bilious. Give me a nice falafel anyday :)

Or perhaps poor Jolanda's confused with halal flour, sugar etc? In which case it's hard to imagine that the wheat is threshed and milled, or the sugar cut and crushed, in any crueller process than that by which any other such food is processed.

Maybe the certification of 'halal' (i.e. permitted) for these kinds of foods is a kind of religious equivalent of the Heart Foundation 'tick' - notwithstanding the improbability of "Krispy cream doughnuts" being awarded the latter appellation.

Krisby Cream Donuts

Halal Certification – The first chain in Australia

We are very excited to tell you that Krispy Kreme is the first chain in Australia to have all stores Halal certified. We have received a lot of calls from customers concerned about whether our doughnuts are Halal and we’re now very proud to be able to say YES. ENJOY!

NEWS STORES . Krisby Kreme are world wide and expanding beyon beleif.
Parramatta
Westfield Parramatta
L2, Argyle Street Entrance
Parramatta
Opens Thurs 8 June 2006

Melbourne
Westfield Fountain Gate
~Click here for store opening activities and details~
Narre Warren North Road
Narre Warren VIC 3805
First store in Victoria opens Thurs 22 June 6.30AM

Canberra
Westfield Woden
Corinna Street
Woden ACT 2606
Opens June 2006

North Ryde
Macquarie Centre
L4, In the Escape
North Ryde
Opens June 2006
ShugJun 23 2006, 12:12 PM
QUOTE(Aqua @ Jun 23 2006, 12:09 PM)
New store openings

North Ryde
Macquarie Centre
L4, In the Escape
North Ryde
Jazakallah-hu-Khairan and Allah knows best.

Wassalaam,

eat-halal.com

http://www.online-islamic-store.com/

I can not see why it is a problem for Jolonda to ask questions.

Asking is how we all learn.

People against Live Exports. HI. Actually I didn't misunderstand you. What I meant was that Muslims shouldn't mind others eating non Halal meat and the fact that they don't is not something that should be seen as anything more than normal.

Good Muslims are lovely people, very king and giving and just like all Lebanese they love to feed you. I am Spanish married to a Lebanese Catholic, one brother in law is Lebanese Muslim and I have a little niece and nephew. It's such a shame that these good Muslims have to suffer because of the actions of a few that are stuck in their ways, who want to control and hold onto old ways and who's thoughts are extreme.

For a long time I have been seeing things that seriously concern me in relation to these types of issues and I cant help but ask questions and air my concerns. Doesn't usually make me many friends. I guess I should be grateful that I was born into a Western Country as with my personality and outspokenness, If I was born anywhere else, I probably would have been killed.

I just feel that if the system is set up so that those that have the strongest belief have the most rights rule then we are in trouble as often Muslim people do not tolerate or budge in their ways and the people have alot of fear and they are often too scared to go against their own even if they don’t agree (they have good reason to be scared).

We are taught to tolerate regardless of how it impacts on us. This has caused many a problem as one can see with the amount of crime happening today.

We need to be smarter.

Even prisoners get Halal meat:

http://ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1171642343

Coming back to what I saw in a WA country town abattoir in the 1970s, when I was there on insurance business. I saw a line of sheep, stepping forward one at a time, and having their throats cut, with no preliminary procedures. The sheep were calm and orderly and showed no signs of stress whatsoever. And they died very quickly. This is what I personally observed and if anyone wants to dispute it, then they can go ahead, but I know what I saw. And no-one at this abattoir tried to mislead me, or feed me any lies either.

Much is being said on this thread about our govt giving in to Muslim expectations. I don't want to be controlled by what I see as unnecessary/ridiculous/superstitious nonsense, regardless of the source, religious or otherwise. But neither am I interested in criticising the beliefs of others, when these beliefs have no bearing on how I am allowed to live my life.

I am a Freedom of Choice person, where that choice does not unreasonably adversely affect others, and where the choice is exercised by consenting adults if appropriate. But just think about how many of our freedoms are opposed by the Roman Catholic heirarchy, the Fundamentalist Christians and some of the more extreme factions of other Christian denominations. And just think about how successful some of these control freaks are, and how much power they seem to have over successive so-called democratic Australian governments.

So when it comes to being controlled by the demands of religious extremists, apparently some of us see that as OK, providing that the extremists are members of our own favourite control freak organisation.

Rex

The method you describe of slaughter with "no pre stunning is in fact illegal in this country."

All Animals must be pre stunned.

We have to have some "control" of animal welfare unless that is you are saying Animals dont count.

You dont sound like that type of person to me.

It just so happens that I agree with you by large which is why we have a MOU with AFIC Australian Federation Of Islamic Council and Councils.

I also have visted Halal plants. It is true a good one does operate in the manner you decribed.
Which opens up a whole new debate on which is the kindest method.
I am pretty much in your corner to be honest and still doing research.

Regarding Halal and Halal Slaughter we have had a great deal of co operation from Muslim Leaders. Far more than from the Australian Government.

So yes If its done with the least stress and pain to the animal we agree- Why Not. Freedom of Choice. Indeed/

There are however some real issues with Halal slaughter so we need a National accreditation for Halal Slaughter Here in Australia. We have already done considerable toward this.

Without strict laws, guidelines and yes 'control if you like' it is impossible to ensure animals do not suffer or the standard of meat. Here is a good example of people working together.>
http://www.aph.gov.au/senate/committee/rrat_ctte/animal_welfare05/submissions/sub72.pdf

I think the real Halal Meat issue and Jolanda's point are two different things.
Shes saying we have a right to be informed.
The information is out there for anybody who wants to do a Google under Halal.
Thank you for your interesting comments

People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming. I think that we should have more than just a right to be informed.

We should have been asked.

Jolanda, not all our meat is "Halal" you are mistaken.

how do you propose "they" "ask".

Dont understand your concern, is it the way the animals are slaughtered or is it because you felt that you had no choice, Even though there are many butchers in the Sutherland Shire.

Tootsie. How can you be so sure that not all meat is Halal.

Have a look at this http://www.halalmeat.com.au/halal.html and in particular to the section where it says - The concept of Halal in Islam has very specific motives.

There are motives for this Halal meat issue and we should be very concerned that our Government has agreed to these changes without consulting all Australians first.

I am not overly religious and it still offends me to have to eat Halal meat. It doesn't feel right to me. Why are my feelings (and people like me) less important than theirs?

This is also another interesting read about Halal http://www.diversityaustralia.gov.au/_inc/doc_pdf/halal.pdf

Goodness it already feels like a take over, but of course it is just a matter of time. In the end Australia will deserve what it gets fed because they didnt' stand up for their own rights.

Yes, Antje, I like to think of myself as a generally compassionate person.

I grew up in country Yorkshire. I had a rifle as a young teenager, was a good shot, and went out shooting for the table. I would not aim at moving rabbits, hares etc, but waited for sitting animals that I could take through the head. They wouldn't have known anything about it. Some of my friends said that I was not "sporting". I told them that the animals were not involved in "sport" and should not suffer. I would not go duck shooting with a shotgun, because of the high incidence of injured birds flying away and suffering.

When I came to Australia in 1962, I took up spearfishing for the table. I became good at this too and almost always hit the fish in the head. I used to quickly break the fish's neck too, in order to settle the matter. I stopped catching fish on a line many years ago, because I felt sorry for them. And I'm appalled at how fish are caught on lines and casually thrown into buckets to gasp their lives out. I stopped spearfishing too a good many years ago. Now I go snorkeling to, as I put it, say "Hi" to the fish. I'm like Fernando from the ABBA song, it's many years since I've felt a rifle in my hands. And I must say I like it that way.

From what you say, I gather that animals can be slaughtered compassionately and still be Halal. I really don't know much about it, but certainly hope that's true. I know nothing at all about Kosher.

Rex
I would like to add your comment on my web page.
Someone who isnt afraid to be decent and doesnt think it is uncool to say so. I will raise a few more points on Halal Meat a little later. I would like to repond to Jolanda.
Jolanda its hard to know which way to answer you. We do get a say. We are informed. Australia is a multi national country so a vote for that means a vote for the different foods and preperation all at the same time.
I know you feel Muslim people in general are trying to take over.
I am not even going to disagree with you on that on a world wide scale.

To the best of my knowledge Woolworths coles ALDI as yet dont have Halal in many areas. So you know that the main stream butchers have Ausie Style Slaughtered meat. I would say thats is the majority.
I cant see them ever selling Halal meat without a sign. They are extremly proud of their product. Nor will they ever stack it next to non Halal Meat because that would be forbidden.

We all have a say about whats available. Make sure you ask for Free Range Animals for a start.
I dont have a problem working with Muslim people to slaughter those animals Halal here in Australia if it means less animal cruelty.
Although we should not kid ourselves about meat works.
All abattoirs are dreadful places.

What you could complain about to the Government Jolanda is the fact the Government allowed Kosha slaughter to take place with no stunning while making the Muslims comply.

Why not write and ask the Government why they excused pre stuuing for KOSHA slaughter in Australia and ask them how you will know if you are being served kOSHA meat because you refuse to support such cruelty.
Perhaps then you might raise why? there is one rule for one and one for another.
Yes you do have a right to be told.

You quite right.

Jolanda, I am sure if you ask your butcher if the meat is Halal, this will solve your problem. Not all meat is Halal. FACT.
My butcher does not sell halal. or does most butchers. I cant imagine at every cattle slaughter there is an islamic offical praying to Allah. Dont think so.

Tootsie I dont have to ask my butcher there is an authorisation certificate stuck on one of the walls.

Jolanda, then, how come you say thall all meat is Halal, I dont see certificates on every butcher. why come to conclusions without finding out facts first.

If you would have asked the butcher. this whole silly thread would not have happened.

Just curious, how would you propose the government "ask".you seem to have avoided this question.

Tootsie it wasn't just my local butcher. I saw it on other butchers walls in our local shopping centre and Krispy Cream donughts too. If it is not all yet, then it is well and truly on its way to all.

How does the Government ask, you ask? By making it public and opening up the issue to debate before making decisions that impact significantly on other people and that cant easily be turned around and that are religiously based or that are based on others cultures policitical beliefs. Especially when the other culture is oppressive and wants to control.

Goodness, that you cant seem to work that out is a concern.

Jolander, you have a choice where you buy your meat/other products.
(you said you have no choice) people who own the butcher/other has a choice what they want to sell. the government cannot tell them how to run their business, would you like it. of course everything goes through an approval from local council.

the government only has a say in the public sector, hospitals etc.

why you cannot get that is a suprise

See here is the problem Tootsie, we are loosing our choice.

Jolanda, we are not loosing our choice at all.

What is wrong with Halal food anyway. did you know that Oportos is Halal. It makes no difference meat is meat chicken is chicken.

Did you know that some Mcdonalds are Halal and some KFC. you wouldnot know the difference, for crying out loud Jolanda the food is Blessed in the name of Allah. thats its. No difference to most people a lot of difference for those that are Muslim. You seem to want to complain about very trivial things.

Do you think the government is conspiring to make us all Muslim without us knowing.

Like I said they have taken away our rights and our choice. WE are now forced to eat meat that has been processed in accordance to Islamic Law and we live in Ausrtralia. If we choose not to we are being limited in what we can eat. They should be the ones that are limited not us as they came here!

It might be trivial to you Tootsie, but it isn't trivial to me.

Jolanda, yes we do had a choice. Go buy your meat at a butcher that does not sell halal. tip: Bankstown might be difficult. high percent of Muslims. go to Woolies Coles or just about every butcher in the Sutherland Shire. you are not forced to do anything. you choose where you do your shopping if you dont like the way the owner runs HIS business go else where. easy as that.

Whatever you say Tootsie. You dont seem to be listening.

Like I said before Australians will deserve what they will be served because of their attitude.

Remember what happened to the Aboriginal people, they were tolerant and understanding and look where it got them!

Jolanda how can you compare Aborignal people with this topic...
how is it comparable?

You dont seem to be listening. Australia is a multicultural country. If you dont want to buy Halal food go to another butcher. the owner of the business has a right to sell whatever he likes.
for god sake Jolanda muslim people have their own school there own churches. Catholic have there own schools etc. Should we be all robots and do the same thing. Australia then wouldnt be the wonderful country that it is. We have a choice. just like every body in this country including Muslim people. this is a multicultural country. if you dont like it maybe you should go back to your country of origin.

do you get that not all meat is Halal??

Don't you get it that they are changing that and already have and they didnt' bother to ask Australians how they felt about it and it is in relation to a religion that not everybody follows or agrees and a culture that is oppressive and controlling. If a Muslim shop wants to sell Halal meat or if they want to sell Halal meat in Bankstown then one should not be surprised but when everywhere you go (Oporto, KFC, Kentucky, Krispy Cream Donughts, local butchers just to name a few) are selling Halal meat without asking the people then you can rest assured that pretty much all meat is being processed this way and if it isn't already, it will be because nobody is doing anything to put it to a stop. They will get rid of our bibles next and our Christmas.

The situation with the Aboriginal people is the same. In came some people to their country and changed things in ways that was not in the Aboriginal people's best interest. The Aboriginal people said nothing and now they are where they are because those that came in didn't have to stop to consider those that were already here and how they felt and how it impacted on them.

I think perhaps the title of your thread could have been something like this> 'Islamic Invasion'.
It is clear as mud to me Jolanda is concerned and a bit angry that her local butcher[ probably a butcher that she's used for years simply changed.

The chain of DN company is huge world wide and growing fast.
Question is. Is there a problem with it?

Well maybe and maybe not. In the interests of National Sercurity
any company that grows overnight with amazing figures thats attached to Muslim faith should be looked at. Wasnt bush doing that?.
Apart from that donuts are donuts.
I feel a bit like a ham sandwhich commenting on this because my associates work with Muslim Leaders and I would not like anything i said here to effect that.
However to be fair to Jolanda I suggest you open another thread calling it something more appropriate.

As for Halal or Kosha or Aussie meat there is one thing! that should be considered first.

That is Is it humane.!!

Now the counter argument and what I think Jolanda is trying to say after that is as follows.[ These are facts although the figures are much higher as we are looking at around sixteen years ago.

The United Kingdom.
In England it is amazing. There are now more Arab Muslims in england than there are Methodists. There are even more muslims than there are evangelic Christians. English parliment has been forced to rule Muslims do not have to follow English common law regarding divorce. they can folloe Islamic Law instead. many say England will be the first Muslim European country.
Australia
Islams grown from 800 muslims in 1955 to well over 2000,000 by 1990. of course the rate is way higher now.

Fredom of Religion. We should be aware many Muslims take personal offense at any criticism of their belifs. They find it ' very' difficult to understand that "freedom" of religion" in the West means that people are free to criticize Islam as well as any other religion!

Would that be a fair comment Jolanda?
Antje

Jolanda, there are signs to say that they sell Halal. therfore they are letting you know. how you cant understand that is amazing.

did you know milk is halal
and did you know tim tams are halal.

chicken is halal because to be halal the chicken must not be fed meat or meat products and kept in a way of minimal suffering. so probably all chicken is halal therefore opotos and kfc are halal but not the fries. get it.

do you get that not all meat is Halal, therefore you are not forced to do anything. do you get that.

Tootsie letting me know is not giving me a choice.

Dont you get it?

People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming. It is a fair comment.

Jolanda, letting you know, is giving you the choice not to buy.

If there was no sign,no other butcher to buy from, that would mean no choice, forced for buy.

therefore you are not forced.. go elsewhere. easy

Do you get that all meat is not halal?

I think you may be a "cronic complainer"

do you get that not all meat is Halal? you seem to be avoiding answering that question?

Jolanda

Might help if we talk about Halal accreditations.


AFIC charged with the accreditations of Halal Certification for Halal Slaughter.

Thirty Two Islamic Councils In Australia . Many don't even acknowledge AFIC as leaders.

You might view us! as the enermy because we work with AFIC. We are encouraging more Halal Abattoirs in Australiaworking directly with Aussie farmers.. See
http://www.halakindmeats.com/submissions.html

Were are not aiming at local market but to export Halal To muslim customers.
It simple makes sense to keep our jobs here and put animal welfare first.
RSPCA position regarding abattoirs are that animals should be slaughtered as close to origin.
There are around thirteen Halal certifiers in Australia. That does not mean that we only deal with thirteen Halal certifiers.
AQIS deal direct with many others from many overseas destinations. Thats is something I question. It takes the direct contact away from the Australian farmers who are selling their stock. It trips them up with trade talk. It puts distance between themselves and the purchasers and leaves them totally open to the tricky live export shipping agents.
The struggle for Halal accreditation is enormous.
The way I see it if we can have a single wheat desk for eg we can have the same for Halal. It is certainly in the interests of our national sercurity to know who is who. Make no mistake Halal meat is a billion dollar business and growing.
Australian Muslims are by large in this country good Aussie cizs.
Of course! we need to know who is behind the donut the Halal Chicken outlets the Halal Ice cream.
We need a national accreditation For Halal Slaughter in Australia.
Some work has been done on this. BUT
Your going on gut instinct. Nothing wrong with that either.!

I will post a few more trival bits and pieces about Halal meat. Dont let the bullys ,bully you out of having a voice.

Learn a bit more about it and then you might even be able to help with a few ideas.
I can assure you many Muslim Leaders would sincerly welcome that.

People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming. I do not see Muslims or those that support Muslims as my enemy. I have a Muslim niece and nephew and I have always supported them and been welcoming.

I fully understand the difficult situation devout Muslims are in.

I also understand that our Government told the Muslim people that they could come to this country and that it was a multicultural country and that they could dress as they pleased, act as they pleased and practice the religion that they pleased. Our Government cannot suddenly now change their mind so there has to be some sort of compromise as what pleases Muslims can often displease others. Problem is that I do not see at any point there being compromises.

It appears that our laws are such that the rights and beliefs of Muslims are more respected than the rights or beliefs of anybody else. It also seems to me that the fact that they are Muslim automatically provides them protection. Protection that the average Australian is not entitled to. Every other person would struggle to prove that acts of discrimination or victimisation against them were based on racism (the anti-discrimination board will not look at or investigate a complaint unless you can prove first that it was based on racism) but for Muslims everything is seen as a race issue just because they are Muslim. This is not only wrong, it is unfair! If this is a truly multicultural country then we should all have the same level of protection and rights.

We need to learn to live together and if the Muslim people want others to have a better attitude towards them then they have to show that they are considerate and understanding of others. No Muslim would agree with Catholics going to their country and changing things and applying other Laws and religious beliefs on them without the consent of the Muslim people yet Muslims remain silent when it happens here.

That to me is a concern.

Jolanda I dont agree with you.

you say " everything is seen as a race issue just because they are Muslim. "
Can you give an example of this.

Jolanda said>

'Don't you get it that they are changing that and already have and they didnt' bother to ask Australians how they felt about it and it is in relation to a religion that not everybody follows or agrees and a culture that is oppressive and controlling'



[I hope you dont mind Jolanda if I answer that].

I changed my dentist some time back due to a move. I needed a place closer. Even though I work with many Muslim people never in a month of Sundays would I have thought to ask the New Dr Dentist what faith they were.
I was mearly concerned with- Were they a good dentist "and did they hurt".
Upon a vist before Christmass last year he presented a large metal gag I have never seen before. Without a word he screwed it on my jaws which held the mouth open. This is called I am told a dam. I am also told many people simply can not tolerate it it and have to use a GA.
After five short minutes in the chair we discovered I was one of these people.
We agreed to rebook and complete all my dental requirements under a [GA].

Fine Ok- I get to the desk and the girl said that will be three hundred dollars please.
In true fair go mate style I replied - what for - I was only in there for five minutes and I dont see how you can charge for a service that has not been provided.

I stated that I was surprised but offered to pay fifty dollars for the Dentists time. Now dont forget I had spent many hundreds of dollars as a patient at this surgery already.

The girl went and spoke to him and upon her reply said No he said forget it. I felt a chill in the air and as I walked out of the surergy I noticed something unusual in a dental practise.

All the magazines were no longer there. No womens weeklys or girly books and pretty much szilch on the wall

continued
As it was most important the treatment be completed after being half done I tried to book the theater time. Nothing. Rang several times. Nothing. I found out through a third party that the good Dr was muslim and I had insulted him in Islamic faith.

Mere Aussie woman questioning Muslim man.
Well he refused to finish my treatment and he also had all his Muslim buddy dentists in the practise refuse as well.

He even managed to pass it on to the surgery just down the road that I went to next. That dentist openly told me NO because he was a friend of the other one!~
Its racist alright. AGAINST US!

" TRY to lodge a complaint."
They tell you that you! are the racist.

They are not all like it Jolanda but the ones that are need a good kick up the = and shipped off.

The Government havent even got the common sense! to stop already married men re marrying- right here in our own country.

According to Mr Hay at Ruddicks office a few years ago.>
\ There was no difference between that and our blokes having a wife and mistress because their second marriages were not recognised by Australian Law.
Well Mr Ministers office- thats ok with them because they dont recognise yours either.!
Do you get it yet ?
Are you there Prime Minister

Tootsie. Give me a break. Can I give you an example of this, you ask - well read post above regarding Dentist. Try and make a complaint and see what happens. I tried to make a complaint of discrimination and the Anti-Discrimination board wouldn't even look at it because I couldn't prove first that it was because of race and this is despite the fact that the evidence I had clearly showed bias and discrimination that included misconduct. I bet my bottom dollar that if my family was Muslim I wouldn't have had to prove it was because of race, it would have just been accepted as a given. Try to see whether an Aussie can claim racism and see what happens.

People against Live Exports. Your story doesn't surprise me. What is happening is a serious concern and the fact that our Government does nothing is just the way they do business, they have to wait until there is a take over and war. They dont seem to understand prevention

Jolanda
Back on track of your post thread. HALAL MEAT.
It is through Halal Meat and Halal Products we can take a step in the right direction but I beleive WE the People will have to do it without the Government.

The fact is we need to know whom we are dealing with and putting large amounts of funds into.

Halal meat is as I said A multi billion Dollar Biz and its growing.
Ok lets leave aside for now other products like Halal Donuts and start somewhere with just meat.

Considering the problems in the world and not to mention it makes good economic sense to keep our money in Australia why cant we have a national accreditation for Halal Meat.

Yes there has been some work done towards this but still we need to do more. Its not easy to work and I know for A fact that Halal Accreditaions can differ from Mosque to Mosque within a mile of each other.
However that just takes some strong backbone from our leaders.
The way I see it the Government in the past have called upon AFIC when there are problems.ie Crunulla Roits etc. Very well then but how about a little loyalty in return. If the Government want strong Muslim Leadership In Australia they have to back them too.
Islamic Councils fighting over power and the Halal Accreditation rights does not make for a strong leadership for AFIC or anybody else chosen for the task.
Lets look at AQIS and the Minister Of Trades Office and ask why if we can have a single desk for wheat for yonks why not Halal Accreditations too and Halal meat.
Then we know with whom we are dealing and you and I have someone to contact with any concerns.
The problem here in Australia is the People do not know who they can complain to. The Government dont know either becuase they are aware the many Islamic Councils dont agree and there is a continual fight for leadership.
Well Whos fault is that?

People against live exports. The problem here in Australia is that even if you know who to complain to it doesnt' make any difference, nobody has any power to do anything. The rights, and therefore power, is with those that break the law and do the wrong thing. The system isn't set up to deal with issues, prevent issues or resolve issues. It is just set up to cover up until the next election.

I just dont see how all that you say is going to make things different for those of us who do not wish to eat Halal meat or products and who do not think it is fair or right that Halal meat is being fed to us without our consent and often without even our knowledge. A piece of paper somewhere on a wall certifying that the products are Halal somewhere in a shop doesn't make things clear or give people a choice.

I appreciate your concern with the animals and I support you entirely on that issue, but how can what you say make a difference to the fact that slowly but surely we are being forced to change and being denied a choice and being controlled by Muslim Law in Australia.

And no Tootsie, telling people to either accept or go somewhere else is not a choice.

Jolanda
I think I am reading you correctly by saying your concern regarding Halal Meats is not so much the meat but Muslims gaining control by funds ran through the particular industry?
Is that right?
You feel that by gaining a too great of foot hold they will also with that gain greater powers? is the correct?

Had you been concerned about the relax on codes of practise with Animal Welfare I suppose you would have said so? is the also correct?

I do agree we need to know who is behind the Vaile for want of a better term yes.
In order to have some place that will listen to sensible concerns we need to have one and only one Islamic Leader. I also beleive one Accreditation office for halal Meat and Halal concerns- Such as yours.
Whoever that turns out to be I am sure would be more than happy to appoint a few Aussie' to work as advisors.

Most Muslim people mean to offend nobody Jolanda.

This organisation will need to work together with the Government.
I think John Howard has already taken steps to appoint Muslim Leaders to such postions. I am sure if he chooses wisley amoung the many good Muslim People there WILL one day be a department to report your concerns to.
I am also sure the Muslim people would love some clear guidelines from Government
We dont want them here fighting amoung themselves for power of Halal Meat or anything else. Thats what happens overseas. You must understand whoever holds accreditation for Halal has a lot of power and! its money.
Only when the Government takes steps to stop this we can be heard. I am sure AFIC would love a person prepaired to give up some time to help with public relations and understanding these types of concerns.
Are you at all interested?
Thank You for the post allowing the public a better insight of Halal Meat

People against live exports. My concern is not that Muslims will have control because of the money made from the Halal meat.

My concern is that they will have control because of the precedent set by the issue with the Halal meat as it makes it so that the beliefs and Laws of Muslims are more respected and more powerful than anybody else. That puts Muslims in a huge position of power and it shouldn’t be allowed. Islamic laws are designed for Islamic countries and they never blend well with the West, usually resulting in violence. This issue with Muslims forcing their beliefs and ways onto others, with the excuse that they are not permitted to change, is heading to the same direction as Cronulla, the Australian public will eventually retaliate.

I have many a time voiced my concerns over Animal Welfare, just because I don’t go out on to the streets does not mean that I do not care. I am but one human being and a fight for the protection of children already consumes me. The protection of children comes first. Maybe one day you will realize that if we cant get them to protect the children then what hope do the animals have?

Muslim people may not want to offend but because of their obvious differences and ways and their refusal, whether because of law or religion, to change to adapt and blend a bit more with the Australian scenery and ways they come across as not caring if they do offend.

I don’t believe that an Islamic Council that has control or is wanting to introduce Halal Meat is going to be interested in acknowledging or investigating a complaint from an individual against what they are doing

Jolanda,
you say
" I tried to make a complaint of discrimination and the Anti-Discrimination board wouldn't even look at it because I couldn't prove first that it was because of race and this is despite the fact that the evidence I had clearly showed bias and discrimination that included misconduct"

You know it was because of race do you. how would you know that. maybe its because you have a vexaious reputation.

every heard of the boy who cried wolf.

Do you get that not all meat is Halal. this means we have a choice.

Why dont you answer the question.

I do not have a vexatious reputation Tootsie. I have been unfairly branded vexatious by those in the system but I will be fighting that in court. Making formal complaints and following the policy and procedure for making complaints should not be able to then be presented as vexatious actions.

We have freedom of speech that I speak out about injustices should be my right, that you critize me for exercising my right and wish to discredit me says more about you than about me..

I can't say for sure whether what happend to my children was just because of their race or also because I made some public complaints about their treatment as nobody left a confession but the thing is that they wouldnt' investigate it unless it was because of race and unless I could prove it first. Had I been Muslim then for sure they would have believed that it was racism and they would have been required to investigate it. Without an investigation the chidren remain unprotected. It really shouldn't matter what the reason was for the discrimination or who we are, discrimination and victimisation borne out of malice, prejudice and spite should be against the law for everyone. To do otherwise is discriminatory.

I have answered your question Tootsie, it matters not to me whether all the meat is Halal yet. At this point the fact that the changes have been made without consulting Australians just shows which direction it is headed. If we wait until ALL MEAT is Halal do you really think we will be able to reverse the trend.

Jolanda,

that is ridiculous. that you think that they should have consulted Australians. how do you propose they do that. who should ask. these people selling halal is their own business. just like you, you dont like to be told how to run your business why should they. does that mean that they should ask when a Chinese restaurant or vegetarian restaurant is opened. absolutely ridiculous. does that mean we should limit how many businesses Asian people open. or European. where does it stop.. Australia is a MULTICULTURAL country. why are you picking on Muslims.

Where did I discredit you. I got the information about Vexatious from more than one place. you have a reputation. all around the internet. You compain about just about everything.just google your name.

Tootsie that I bring up issues of which I believe are a concern is my right........this is Australia. That you call me vexatious just shows you to be of the type that doesn't want people to voice their concerns. It was you that tried to discredit me in your posts on this thread, don't try to blame anybody else. Fact is that it is not going to work as I don’t care what you think of me, I have concerns, I have legitimate complaints and I will speak out for as long as it takes.

If the meat is being slaughtered as Halal meat at the abattoirs then the shops also loose their choice to buy non halal meat.

I think you are the one that is picking on those that have an issue with the oppressive Muslim regime.

Jolanda, I did not discredit you. where did I discredit you.

Butchers choose where they get their meat from. they have a choice as does you and everyone else. where do I blame everybody else.
You choose to speak out. therefore you are given a vexatious reputation.

I suggest you choose your battles carefully if you dont like this reputation.

I have no issues with people that have legitimate issues with anybody. yours is not legitimate. muslims have a right to eat Halal just as vegetarians have a right to not eat meat.

This is a MULTICULTURAL COUNTRY.. I embrace differences.

you speak out as much as you like Jolanda I dont care. just dont say people dont a choice because they do. You will find that the majority of butchers that sell Halal are in the areas that the Majority of Muslims live.

WHO SHOULD HAVE CONSULTED WHO?

Rubbish Tootsie.

Yes Jolanda, this whole thread is rubbish..

glad to agree on that.

Not quite what I said Tootsie, but you will no doubt interpret it to suit you, just like you want things to suit you, regardless.

No Jolanda you are the one who goes on and on and on. but if you dont get agreeance or what suit you, you fire up.

The fact is you have a choice. you are not forced to buy anything.
muslims people have a right to continue with their culture and beliefs, its their right. this is a multicultural country.

Muslims and their rights?

Well what about the right of Australians in their own country not to have to have oppressive Islamic laws and fanatical religious beliefs pushed on to them by a minority who dont know how to appreciate what they have and who show no respect for others.

I think that people can be the judge as to who fires up!

I just love Tootsies idea of choice. It just reeks with superiority. It goes like this. Do it my way or take the highway.

Jolanda, you reek with superiority.
just google your name and read.
everyone has a choice.
you say no, this is Australia etc. YES MULTICULTURAL.
nobody is pushing anything on anyone.
you are racist. you have the attitide of your way or the highway. all I am saying is that we have a choice where whether we buy halal or not.
nobody if forcing any religion or beliefs on anybody. or do you have a door to door muslim sales person visiting your place.

what proof do you have?
you are just a cronic complainer. google and read

Here goes Tootsie once again trying to discredit me to take the attention away from my legidimate arguments and concerns.

If I go to a shop and everything has been CHANGED to Halal I don't have a choice. A choice means choosing to buy Halal. A choice is not being unable to buy anything at all because all there is is Halal. If Muslims want to eat Halal then it should be something that they have to ask for it shouldn't be mainstream as it is not what the majority want. We live in a Democracy and majority rules.

Google my name to your little hearts content. I have opinions, I have issues with the Department of Education and Government. I have the evidence to support every complaint that I have made. Writing on On line Opinion or on Your say is not lodging complaints, it is discussing issues and concerns. This is a country where we have freedom of speech, or do you want to take that away from me too and call it a choice.

My actual complaints have been formally made and in the near future they are going to be put through the Court. You cannot discredit me on the basis of that as I am the one that is telling the truth. Or doesn't that matter?

JOLANDA, ITS NOT MAINTSTREAM..

IF YOUR BUTCHERS HAS CHANGED TO HALAL, ITS HIS RIGHT. IT MUST OF CHANGED HANDS. GO ELSE WHERE. YOU HAVE A CHOICE. MOST BUTCHERS DO NOT SELL HALAL.

WHICH BUTCHER HAS CHANGED TO HALAL. POST THE BUTCHERS SHOP NAME. WOULD LOVE TO KNOW WHERE TO BUY HALAL IN THE SHIRE. SAVES ME GOING TO BANKSTOWN.

POST THE NAME OF THE BUTCHER IN THE SHIRE THAT HAS CHANGED TO HALAL PLEASE. THANKS JOLANDA.

JUST SO YOU KNOW. HALAL MEAT CANNOT SIT NEXT NON HALAL MEAT. SO THE BUTCHER MUST SELL HALAL OR NON HALAL.

I, for one, would not choose to buy anything that has been blessed or prepared for any religion. Therefore, it is essential that such foodstuffs be clearly labelled. Putting a certificate on the wall is inadequate.

When I buy food, I do not consider that it has religious significance and I agree that it is taking choice away if we are not aware. I am unaware that Tim Tams, milk etc are Halal. I will check up on that as it is taking away my choice by not informing me.

It is a bit like the reluctance of supermarkets to identify where fruit and vegetables come from. I want to buy Australian grown but when I enquired, I was informed that it disadvantages other members of the market. But by not identifying this, it takes away my choice of buying Australian grown. Sometimes notices are put up, but other times there is no identification. When we talk about choice, it should be informed choice. Start a petition Jolanda, I will sign it willingly.

LIST OF HALAL BUTCHERS IN SYDNEY:
Abu Ali Butcher Riverwood
Dayaa Al. Carlton Al Pak Halal Butcher Lakemba Al Shimal Quality Meats Greenacre Al-Ameen Smallgoods & Meats Bossley Park Ali Baba Butcher Harris Park Allouche Butchery Arncliffe Alreda Butchery Auburn Anadolu Butchery East Lakes Angliss Arncliffe Australian Kebab Manufactoring Pty Ltd Prestons Baiada Poultry Pendle Hill Banksia Halal Butcher Blacktown Halal Meats Blacktown Burhan Family Butchery Auburn Campbelltown Meatex Meat Campbelltown Chame & Akkaow Halal Meat Bankstown Cordina Chicken Chicken supplies only Girraween Dannoun Butchery Darwiche Butchery Lakemba Dee Why Halal Butchery Dee Why El-Zahra Halal Butchery Arncliffe Fresh Poultry Company Padstow Golden Horn Halal Butchery Enmore Golden Smallgoods Casula Hafda Butchery - Halal Meat Liverpool Halal Butchery Lakemba Hamka Halal Meat Arncliffe Hamka Nibah Arncliffe Hamzae & Mousa Butchery Airds Happy Family Butcher Belmore Hassan's Green Valley Halal Meat Green Valley Hilal Halal Meat Dulwich Hill Homebush Halal Meat Croydon Park Hourani Halal Meat Arncliffe Inan Butchery Liverpool Indo-Malay Halal Butcher Lakemba Jabal Amed Butchery Rockdale Jakarta Butchery Dulwich Hill K M Sahyouni Butchery Lakemba Khalil Halal Butchery Liverpool Lakemba Halal Meats Belmore 2192Nour Elhouda Butchery Lakemba Noureddin Butchery Lurnea Oz Abdulla Kebabs Seven Hills Ozlem Butchery Chester Hill Pasha Butchery Auburn Punchbowl Halal Butchery Liverpool Rockdale Halal Meat Rockdale Rooty Hill Quality Halal Meats Rooty Hill Saddik Bros Butchery Granville Sultan Halal Meat Campsie T.J. Muamullah Pty Ltd Kensington Taweel Butchery Lakemba The Muslimi Butcher Shop Liverpool Vatan Butchery Mascot Villawood Butcher ShopVillawood

Most foods default to Halal. Exceptions are Alcohol, Animal Fat, Animal Shortening, Bacon, Collagen, gelatin, lard, pork or foodstuff that contain these ingredients. Also, anything stolen. Not everything has to be blessed. What matters is the ingredients. So we read the packs to determine if Halal.
Above is a list of Halal Butchers. NOTE : THERE ARE NONE IN THE SUTHERLAND SHIRE. Krispy cream donuts are Halal because they are not cooked in LARD. They is no blessing ceremony

Jolanda please post Halal butcher in the shire.

I have been checking some of the claims made about halal food. Below is a question and reply in the FAQ on the Arnott's website regarding the assertion that Tim Tams are halal.

Q: Are any Arnott's biscuits Halal or Kosher certified?
A: Arnott's does not certify its products sold in Australia or New Zealand based on any particular religious beliefs or social preferences.

According to the Dairy Australia site http://www.dairyaustralia.com.au/index.php?option=com_wmakes&task=specdet&AccreditationId=Halal “A food or drink which conforms to Islamic dietary laws. Halal applies to the product not the production method, therefore in the case of dairy products; milk must be from cows, sheep, camels or goats”.

As for chicken meat, below is on the Australian Chicken Meat Inc site http://www.chicken.org.au/page.php?id=150#G18

1. What is required for chicken meat to be Halal?
The chicken must be processed in a manner that is consistent with the rules of the Muslim faith, which requires that:
1. a prayer is spoken at the beginning of the day;
2. the person supervising the slaughtering process must be of Muslim faith; and
3. the facility has to be accredited by the local Muslim cleric.
2. How is this different from the non-Halal process?
The only differences are the three points listed above. A person observing the actual process would be unable to distinguish one from the other and staffing levels are identical.
3. Is all Halal chicken meat sold as Halal certified chicken meat?
Because the physical process is the same for both Halal and non-Halal products and there is no additional cost involved, approved processing plants may process a whole day’s birds observing the Halal requirements, with only some of the product being required to be Halal certified.
I have sent an email about chicken voicing my objections to not having a choice not to buy blessed food.

Quite frankly, if a company wants to have someone mumble a few words in prayer to appease a section of the market, I have no issues with it.

Nothing particularly different is done to halal meat, save for a prayer. It isn't treated in a special way, it merely falls into the category then receives the prayer stamp of approval.

There are much more worthy things to get hot and bothered about, and I can't help but feel this cause really is a waste of time. To that end, I bid this thread adieu.

Different priorities and interests make this forum worthwhile. I am interested in this topic and so want to find out more. There are a lot of topics about which I have little knowledge and even less interest. These I don't even bother commenting on. I do, however like to read other people's comments. Just think how boring it would be if we were all hot and bothered about the same things. I appreciate the variety of issues aired on this forum as well as the different discussion threads about what concerns us as individuals.

Lizzie4. It is good to hear that others are concerned about this issue with the Muslims forcing their laws and beliefs on Australians without our consent or choice.

I see it is a serious issue as once it is in place, it cannot be reversed. Unfortunately due to other issues I do not at this point in time have the time or motivation to take on a petition, but I did want to air my concerns so that people stop to think.

When you have a culture that is set in its ways and will not change or budge and they expect others to accomodate them and their ways are oppressive in nature, for people not to be concerned to me just shows ignorance and/or stupidity.

It seems that there are those that don't learn.

"When you have a culture that is set in its ways and will not change or budge and they expect others to accomodate them and their ways are oppressive in nature, for people not to be concerned to me just shows ignorance and/or stupidity."

Somewhere along the way, Jolanda, I seem to recall you saying that you are Catholic. I don't have a problem with what faith [if any] individuals choose to follow, but the Catholic heirarchy could fairly be said to be "a culture that is set in its ways and will not change or budge and they expect others to accomodate them and their ways are oppressive in nature."

Compared to the typical opposition to voluntary euthanasia [supported by 70/80% of the Australian public], abortion, contraception, gay equality, realistic sex education, etc, which we get from traditional Catholicism and from other forms of extreme Christianity, I find the concern over Halal food almost farcical. And despite your attempts at browbeating OLO posters into submission, I'd say that many others see it that way too.

As for a believer asking for God's or Allah's blessing on his/her day's work, well what's wrong with that, and how can it possibly have an adverse effect on a downline buyer or user of the product of such a person's day's work?

Jolanda

I probably understand what your saying more that most. However Tootie at Home and Rex have good points.
The bottom line SHLOULD be what is ivolved in the ritual slaughter of the animals? Everybody should put that! first. If by opening another one hundred Halal Abbotirs Australia wide for example would give us back our jobs and stop animals going alive to third world countries- I would be encouraging that. As a matter of fact I am.
Tootsie is right that a butcher does not simply change from Australian Slaughterd meat to Halal. I suggest it ispossible your butcher sold his shop?
No you dont have halal and Aussie meat side by side.
What your trying to say Jolanda is you fear Australia will be taken over eventually.
Perhaps one day.
Either way its something that we should all think about from a Animal Welfare point of view.
Whats best for the animals is what SHOULD count.
Otherwise meats meat.
At least Maylasian Government reps are prepaired to look at using a gas on larger animals to render them unconcious [ which has never been fone before]
If ever they do that I will be promting Halal meat as the most humane method and bugger people egos.
We have a wonderful new President of AFIC. I encourage ypou to write to him with any concerns. he loves Australia as much as we do and he has a BIG interests in Animal Welfare pluss addressing any concerns from the public.
Write to him and you may be surprised.
Rex has made enquiries into Halal Slaughter for the RIGHT reasons and I wish there were more like him!

People against Live Exports. Are you trying to tell me that you would support the Muslims if it meant that the animals are treated kinder even though they could very well get enough power and control because of this to put humans at risk of being treated in a manner that is oppressive and controlling and more often than not violent and extreme?.

Jolanda.
For a start not all! Muslims are a threat to our way of life. Many love Australia as much as I do.
Jolanda lets call a spade a spade. Unlike some posters i have dealt with you before.
Your the lady who went on Andrew Bartletts web page about your trouble with the education dept.[ Right] We actually offered to help you with legals[ right] I posted some posts in support of what you had said at the time but they were not posted right? yes. I was good enough to send you copies of those posts./ right?
We asked you however not to go public with accusing Andrew of holding back on posts in suppport of you[ right? I explained at the time Andrew probably refused to put those comments of support up for you because they came from us and nothing to do with YOU? Isnt that correct? I told you if you did it would work against the animals.
DID YOU CARE Oh no its poor Little Jolanda this and poor little Jolanda that.
You then went public with it.

Knowing Andrew was pretty much only working with the Libbers and we were trying to open more Halal Plants to stop live exports. OK it was not your fault but Andrews but I warned you. It had NOTHING to do with you why he didnt post those comments of support. I also begged you to just leave it be. Tar! on top of that you posted on another forum NOBODY had ever offered you free legal help
Thats a Lie.
Again I have supported you to a point because your thread was going no place[right]
Wasnt it I who sent the OLO to you in the first place? Yes.
Why/ because Andrew Bartlett was NOT honest and NOT fair to you.
Now be a bit fair to animals.
Who cares who kills them and gets most of the money if it stops some of the barbaric treatment.
And! I repeat not all Muslims are plotting to steal our land. Many Love t too!

People against live exports. You are full of it and just like everybody else you want to present things to suit your agenda. You are not presenting things the way that they actually happened but I am not going to get into that with you. That is old stuff that has been done to death, that you bring up the past and present it in a manner in order to try to discredit me says alot about you.

You dont like it when I have a point and so instead of arguing with me you try to discredit me and make yourself out to be some sort of hero.

I have never said that nobody offered me any legal advice, others wrote that and then it was presented a though I said it. If you knew me well enough you would know that I dont lie. I dont need to lie.

I knew about OLO well before I had any contact with you. I actually submitted a piece some years before that was accepted but I had to edit it as it was too long and at the time I just let it go. You neither made me, nor helped me. You are so full of yourself.

You say you supported me because my thread was going nowhere. I say to you that my thread was not going nowhere, my thread was a place for me to express my opinion, that was enough for me. I dont need a audience or applause and I dont need your support.

You truly are a piece of work

Oh and one more thing you are right not all Muslims are plotting against the world but many of those in power are and fellow Muslim citizens are either to scared or to loyal to speak out against it.

That makes them followers and supporters.

Jolanda, just as I thought, Jolanda didnt answer the question.

because there is no butcher. its a lie, just like most things she says. she changes things to meet her agenda.

if this is not true jolanda post the butchers name.

Yes Jolanda I agree with Tootsie that you should indeed post the name. you are accusing them of taking over your local butcher shop without one word .
That indeed is something to e concerned about.
If you like I can make it simple for you.
You post the name and i will check to se who does the accreditations for that particular butcher and address your concern.

AFIC have just held an election last week and I am sure you will be happy to know the new president is as Aussie as we are.

Now its possible that the accreditation was granted by one of the other twelve accredited Islamic groups.
You will be doing Australia a great service if this is the case by raising this very important issue.

You are quite right. We need a national Accreditation for Halal Slaughter in Australia and to know who we are dealing with.

I DO know where you are coming from even if you dont. Yes Jolanda there is a fight for Halal Acreditation.
Help us keep Australia safe by posting the name of the butcher so I can look into it and raise it with the Government. As we hold a MOU with AFIC we are quite happy to raise your concerns.
Shes got a good point Tootsie and Rex
Thank You Jolanda it IS a important topic.

Lizzie
I apoligise I did not see your posts earlier as I have been away. Well we certainly could do with a few more Lizzies in Australia I dare say. It is good you are interested just as it is good Jolanda has posted her concerns and I am quick to add Jolandas not stupid.

Lizzie to be honest in my view you are seventy years too late.

Australia has been flooded with cheap imports and the farmers have been betrayed by the Nationals and the others. Do you know where home brand baked beens are from- UAE.

Now for Halal Meat and products we do need a National acreditation. Halal Meat is a billion dollar industry and growing. JAKIM through Maylasia see themselves becoming the hub for Halal Accreditation and marketing from there to the Middle East.

Its REALLY important that we the public ask questions about Halal Meat and products.

The fact is Jolanda is RIGHT to question where it came from and who is pocketing the funds.

The meat Industry is the marfia of the world and I certainly dont just mean Halal Lizzie.

Yes I will sign a petition too that we have one official Halal certifer in Australia to stop any likelyhood of AQIS dealing with unknows.
Look at the AWB situation after all.

If its OK to have a single desk for wheat for years why not Halal So we know who we are supporting?
Quite right Jolanda

Tootsie there is no way in the world that I am going to give you anybody’s name and give you the opportunity to have the heavy put on them and make me out to be the bad guy. You want to call me a liar, then call me a liar, it’s a free country and you can say pretty much what you please, it’s another thing that we love about this country and something else that most Muslims with power have a problem with.

You listed a whole list of butchers that are Halal. What did they have some sort of presentation when they went Halal, did they throw a party, did they advertise it in the Newspaper? DID THEY ASK ANYBODY EXCEPT MUSLIMS HOW THEY FELT ABOUT IT AND WHETHER THEY AGREE?

Of course not! Muslims don’t care how others feel, they are not required to care, they are loyal to their Religion and ways because they believe that their way is the right way. Your attitude is just so selfish, to say that if butchers change to accommodate Muslims, without catering for non-Muslims that it still leaves non muslims with a choice because they can choose not to buy it says a lot about your attitude.

If Australia doesn’t change their Laws so that they rule and over-ride Islamic and Sharia law then we are in trouble because at the end of the day he who is most tolerant loses and it seems that in Australia with this ridiculous Multicultural experiment – power is up for grabs.

Tolerance is one thing, but far out, to allow people to change Australia to suit the Muslims religion and laws without the consent of the Australian people, and not to care how it impacts on others is really rude and disrespectful. Cronulla happened because of this issue and unless our Government starts taking control of what is happening it will end in violence as people see their lifestyle/culture being taken over and they will rebel.

In the end Australia will resemble the Country that these people said that they escaped from.

Jolanda, you are a racist liar. anybody who reads this will agree.

who is going to put the heavy on them, you are against halal not I.

I am making a point. you say you have no choice I say yes you do, because there are no halal butchers in the Shire. If you know of one post their name so I can go my my meat there.

once again jolanda has shown her cronic complainer problem with a twist of attention seeking with racist on top. trying to discredit others with her superiority.

Lets not forget the paranoia. we have been taken over by muslims. she has agrued that we are taken over by Asians aswell. what next aliens. Jolanda this is a multicutural country. Where you born here.

Post the name. but we all know there isnt one. its all a fabrication to suit your agenda. to discredit muslims.

Jolanda, I'm still a little unsure what you see as a positive outcome to all this.

There is clearly a market for Halal meat. In other words, there are people prepared to pay for meat killed in this particular way. Just like there is a market for Kosher products. Or gluten-free products. Or vegetarian products.

Shops have spotted these market niches, and are providing for them. They are taking the commercial risk that they will be losing trade from non-Muslims, non-Jewish, gluten-tolerant carnivores in doing so. And none, as far as I know, has any means by which they can force these people into their shops.

Are you suggesting that there should be some form of national approval before a niche market can be serviced in this way?

That is, of course, out of the question in a free society such as ours, so what is it that you really want?

I strongly suspect that this is nothing more than just another vague ramble against Muslims, with absolutely nothing to do with food processing.

If so, it would be more less devious of you simply to say "I would like all these people with their strange habits to go back where they came from", rather than pretty it up with a meaningless moan about Halal meat.

It would take a little bit of courage to say this, because you would then effectively be giving everyone else permission to judge you and your lifestyle in return.

But at least it would be honest.

Pericles. You don’t seem to understand what I say. I understand that Muslims don’t want to eat non Halal products. BUT, they have to understand that non-muslims also do not want to have to eat Halal products. Therefore if they want to have Halal products available in shops they should have to pay for it and it should be available on request. They shouldn’t be allowed to make all products Halal and then tell us that if we don’t like it to choose not to purchase it.

Those that bring up concerns and issues are not the racists.

The way this is headed and the way things are going we are going to be the ones that are told to go somewhere else or to another Country if we don’t like things their way.

You want to judge my lifestyle based on your own ideas, then be my guest. I am not racist. Racists are those that think that they are superior and as a result deserve to rule others and have things their way and who do what they can to achieve their goal regardless of what host country they are in and who they upset or offend.

I am just bringing up concerns in relation to the racists that have come to live in this country.

This is what jolandas trying to say- Christianty for exampple does not demand that people today should dress in accordance with first-century dress codes, or that they can eat only what jesus ate. chritianity is thus ' supracultural' in thazt it allows people to live, dress and eat in accordance with the culture in which they are living. but this is not so with Islam. Whenever Islam becomes the dominant religion in a country, it alters the culture of that nation and transforms it into the culture of seventh- century Arabia.

This is why oit is hard for Muslims to convert to another religion. Every aspect of life has been dicated by Islam. The Muslim must follow the dicates of Islam regardless of where he lives or what he thinks about it.
Would that be a Fair Thing to Say Jolanda/ Is that why sudden appearances of Halal products concern you?
If so would you not agree it would be in the best interests of Australia to have one Halal Certifer In Australia?

Jolanda,

NOT ALL products are Halal. you have to go to a Halal Butcher to buy Halal meat. Meat products because they are slaughtered have to be blessed etc. all other foods its about the ingredients. so they check the label.

Most Muslims will eat some haram food products. like Tim Tams some say they are halal others say they are not. so some eat it some dont. its what you believe is Halal. so in fact the only difference is that Muslims that live in the shire have to travel to an islamic populated area to buy Halal meat, because there is no halal butcher in the SHire. correct Jolanda.

Funny how Jolanda avoids/wont answer the question. if you dont, it will certaining do something to your credibility.

It will do nothing about my credibility Tootsie. I dont have to prove anything to you. I will not name names because I know that, one way or another, it will impact on me because you and others might start using the butcher that I go to. That I can do without!

Maybe not all butchers are Halal at the moment but as Muslims start moving into different areas they push for thier ways to follow. It has happened everywhere. Just because we are not at critical point yet in the shire, unlike other places, that doesn't mean that it isn't in the process of happening. It would definately be in the best interest of Muslims to pretend that there is nothing to worry about until Halal is spread throughout all butchers and shops and called anybody who expresses concern a racist.

People against live exports. You are absolutely correct. There needs to be one Halal Accreditation agency as when there is more than one it is impossible to keep a handle on things.

Oh and Tootsie, one more thing, it isn't just the butchers that will be pressured, or not given a choice, but to provide Halal, there is also our fast food outlets.

That has already been happening. So dont forget that!

Jolanda, you write absoloute rubbish.

You have fabricated this butcher, just like you fabricate most things to suit your agenda.

absolute garbage.

Its like banging you head against a brick wall.

you are worried now that some people will go to your butcher. is that all you could think of. why dont you be honest. or that is too difficult for you.

Jolanda

May have a different way of spitting it out but there are some real concerns about Halal.
Before you all call me a racist I have a MOU with AFIC regarding Halal meat.
Please just listen to what I am about to let you in on.

The Government rush to AFIC if there is a problem- like Crunulla

Good at least they know who's ok and recognise them as Muslim Leaders of Australia[ Thank God, make that both if you like]

BUT. Do they support AFIC in return? No

So we have all these other Muslim Islamic Councils rushing around saying- Oh but we dont recognise AFIC as leaders AND fighting! for power.
Its time the Government stopped it. Islamic council. There are thirty two in Australia. A dozen I worry about.

Is that dangerous to Australians?
- You bet it is.
AQIS get on the phone and except certifactions and Halal Accreditations from all over ME and you name it.

SO how do we know for example WHO we are funding and supporting?

The same as when we sent animals alive?

Hello Is anybody starting to catch on yet.

Apart from the fact its barbaric and stupid to send OUR jobs overseas its darn right dangerous.

Long have we been aware of the OTHER things going back and forth.

Yep we sure are all going to pay big time for this stupidity one day.

When will the Australian Fed.Government STATE GOV as well support a National accreditation for Halal Slaughter in Australia. STOP undermining AFIC leaders so they can keep Australia safe and beautiful?
What about the AWB they still send Animals Alive to ME, right now today.!
Oh Yes they kept that one quite even though you the public just paid for the biggest enquiry ever held in this country. They told you it was just about wheat didnt they> Well its not. Its live exports and its happening right now.

Halal needs to be watched REAL close and Ausies should see live animal exports for what it is.
CRUEL STUPID and DANGEROUS

Rex [says]

As for a believer asking for God's or Allah's blessing on his/her day's work, well what's wrong with that, and how can it possibly have an adverse effect on a downline buyer or user of the product of such a person's day's work?

Rex I thought you said you worked with AWB as a wheat manager. Where you not aware AWB purchased the live exports in 2003 from Wesfarmers as they tried to keep their involevment in the barbaric trade quite.

As I know you to be as I term it- one of the 'few good men' who do care about the plight of these poor creatures -.

I was just curious about your comment to Jolanda.

Anyway how did it go with Yabby finding a path to presenting a proposal to the WA Government?

Considering PALE offered funds Muslim leaders to assist its strange you did not reply at all.

Never mind you were probably talking with Yabby .

By the way Yabby is not a live exporter or meat producer and has no idea about what really goes or- Or Why for that matter.

Still your a clever person so I am sure you will finally work that out.

There are many people involved world wide in Halal Meat.

As you can imagine its a tempting way also of raising funds for other things.

You can write off heaps of black money as well in the meat indusrty.

Still why should we worry after all a few words mumbled over a Muslims knife as you say.

Rex
What do you think Of Andrew Bartlett?/ I seem to recall you were with the greens.
Is that correct?

I find many of your comments interesting Rex so please dont think because I may not totally agree re organs or even comments to Jolanda I am not listening to you.
Very interested in your political thoughts to the contary.
Regards

Jolanda, when I asked what you see as a positive outcome of all this, I meant "what actions can be taken to resolve your problem?"

You said:

>>I understand that Muslims don’t want to eat non Halal products. BUT, they have to understand that non-muslims also do not want to have to eat Halal products. Therefore if they want to have Halal products available in shops they should have to pay for it and it should be available on request. They shouldn’t be allowed to make all products Halal and then tell us that if we don’t like it to choose not to purchase it.<<

... and I understand your position perfectly.

But what I cannot see is what anybody - you, me, the government, the church - can actually do about it while staying within the normal bounds of a capitalist, democratic society.

There is obviously a market for Halal, consisting of buyers and sellers. Which of these categories would you legislate against, and with what end?

Would you forbid the sale of Halal meat? From your perfectly reasonable statement above, you obviously don't advocate this.

So what exactly is the remedy that would make you happy?

As far as I can tell, your only request is that they "shouldn’t be allowed to make all products Halal and then tell us that if we don’t like it to choose not to purchase it"

Who is "they" in this sentence? And how exactly would you phrase the law that forbids them either to i) "make all products Halal" or ii) "tell us that if we don’t like it to choose not to purchase it"

Sorry to be so logical about this, it is obviously an emotional issue for you.

But if there actually isn't a way to solve the problem without turning our country upside down, there's little point in losing sleep over it.

Hi PALE,

I've never had any connection with AWB. I was Western Australian Wheatbelt manager for an insurance company in the early to mid 1970s. My clients were mainly farmers, with some farm managers and workers, also shearers and shearing contractors, farm contractors and owner/drivers, stock transporters etc.

I was a self-employed "working manager" and sold business in the field, at the same time managing a team of self-employed insurance agents. We systematically called on both existing clients and anyone else who we could get to listen to us for a few minutes. I went anywhere I could to find prospects, including some of the small abattoirs which existed in those days.

I'm inclined to be friendly and informal and was generally treated as a friend by my clients, being invited into their homes, and often into their family and social lives. I saw that these people are almost invariably decent people, who have to survive in an often difficult industry. I think that my experiences have given me an insight into some of what Yabby says.

I have no problem with other peoples' religious/spiritual beliefs, but bitterly resent having them forced onto me, when they restrict my freewill in a significant way. I gave some of these examples in an earlier post and made mention of the Catholic heirarchy in this respect.

cont

But I have no problem whatsoever about eating Halal food, in fact I think that asking for God's or Allah's blessing on one's daily work is a nice concept. It's a bit like when you have a health problem and your good friend says that his/her group is praying for you. Whether your friend is Christian, Muslim or whatever, that's probably the nicest thing your friend could say to you, or wish for you, so why not accept it as such?

I have been a member of the WA Greens for a good many years. That doesn't mean that I invariably agree with Greens policies or priorities, but I like the Greens attitude to the environment and to social justice. I have no particular opinion on Andrew Bartlett. And I don't expect everyone to necessarily agree with me on a variety of subjects.

Have I covered all your concerns?

And if I really wanted to avoid the possibility of eating Halal meat, then I would make sure that I bought all my meat from places which also sell bacon, ham and pork. And because I'm happy to include pig meat as part of my regular diet, that's what I do anyway, but not because of any aversion to Halal. Doesn't sound complicated to me.

Rex
Sorry I thought you said AWB. I know Elders were into insurance at that time for farmers so to compete against them would have been hard core.

Which ever way its come out Jolanda has tripped over something thats certainly worth looking into futher.

People might enjoy their Halal meat but we need to know who is behind the prayer.

Other than that yes I agree with you just shop where they sell pork

I am guessing you have read all my comments on Halal meat and pointed out the things we do need to watch.

As I already said there has have done some work on a national accreditation of Halal with more to do.

I will be travelling to WA sometime to meet with some PFF people and I will bring along Australian Muslim leaders and Malaysian delagates

As we are in QLD with it would be good if you would like to meet with some of these to assist you with your propoal to WA State Government.

I would be more than happy to make the introductions and put them in contact with a local person after that.

Or if not dont worry we will just have to send somebody down each time they come to look at propects, land plants and to meet farmers.

Our part is simply really in so much as we meet reet and make intros diect to farmers.

If you are interested we have a MOU with Australian Federation Of Islamic council and we work in conjunction with RSPCA QLD.

Would be very happy to be able to give them a WA person to contacts as the different ones fly over.

Here is the web site and og course there is a good agents fee available.
http://www.halakindmeats.com/

I am mentioning this to you because you expressed interest to Yabby. If your not interested - no problem.

Hi Pale,

Thanks for the offer, but I wouldn't know where to start. Maybe ask Brian Burke LOL. I'm 90% retired and have a small business interest which I operate from home. This suits me fine.

And thanks for the interesting website.

I enjoy meeting interesting people and would be happy to say "Hi" to you when you are in the West, if you can find the time. I live in the pleasant beachside suburb of Waikiki, which is part of the small City of Rockingham, about 30 minutes drive south of Fremantle. But I would have nothing whatsoever to offer your associates by way of helping them in their objectives.

Rex.

You have already offered more than most- `You care`.

Yabby suggested we contact some WFF people he posted.

I spoke with one of those people.

We would VERY much appreciate being able to meet and just chat with you.

Local knowledge is what we are starving for.

What you might think unhelpful would be pure Gold to us.

Anyway its always a big help to know there is somebody friendly in another state to contact to say hello.

John Howard and Peter McGauran after holding meetings with Mr McGuarans advisor last year on the Gold coast have advised the following.

That they find the proposal of co joint ventures"[quote] Interesting in principle "and invited us to do basically as biz plan etc with promises of meeting with Ministers of trade and Agriculture pending.
Which I am personally unable to do being a basic bushy. We have five thousand dollars to pay somebody but its hard to find the right person.

We are far more interested for them to adopt this as a policy of course and not interested in just a grant to promote 'any" partucular company.

HKM is a copmany that does have a MOU with AFIC was sent up for the soul purpose showing how it can be and should be done in the interests of Animal Welfare and jobs for the Australian economy.

What I would like to do is provide you with copies for the Greens.

If you are wondering why we dont just sent it direct - It is because of the way the manipluation has been entrenched by other Animals Welfare groups. We are not libbers so there for NOT popular with the others who refer to us as animal killers.

Apart from that I would like to meet you and who knows maybe we could even get old Yabbs there for a beer. [ Wouldnt that be something![smile]
I think he likes Chardoney.
Thank You Rex I will let you know when we are going to WA.
You might let us know a good place to stay.
http://www.halakindmeats.com/

I live in Canada and if I want Halal meat then I have to go out of my way to find it, that's just how it is where I live. I don't have to jump mountains or anything, but it's easier to get non-halal meat. That said, I don't eat either because I am a vegetarian and have been since I've been 12. If an item has gelatin or rennet in it I don't eat it and that works with both being a vegetarian and Muslim.

But I don't get what the big deal is about halal meat. Jolanda, if you have such a big problem with it, then find another butcher. No one is force feeding you anything. To do so would be to physically put halal meat down your throat. You can simply choose not eat the meat. It is up to the butcher to sell halal meat or not. The government can't stop you from serving halal or non-halal meat. No one forces anything upon anyone else. McDonald's are everywhere in the world, that doesn't mean you HAVE to eat there. And in places where it is easier to just serve halal only then why not?

If I'm not mistaken you're problem is that you think a precedent is set. Well precedents can be set easily, open your on meat shop and don't sell an ounce of halal meat. It is the butcher's prerogative to sell what he wants, I don't think he/she should care what you think (unless you but huge amounts on meat and losing you as a customer would hurt sales).

Someone earlier on said you can't taste the difference anywhere and how do Muslims tell if some thing's Halal or not. It's up to the intention. If you believe something is halal and eat it and it turns out it isn't then it's not a sin or anything because you had the intention.

My suggestion is to be a vegetarian and that way you eat healthier and you don't have to worry about eating Halal meat, non-halal meat or meat from animal cruelty.

Jolanda

After spending a fair bit of time supplying you with a insight into halal Meats in Australia -I am wondering if you intend to answer any of these people who have posted on your thread.?

The jury's in on Kripsy Kreme donuts, and they've been found to be rather less than salubrious:

"Death to the Krispy Kreme: the Parents Jury has spoken"

http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/death-to-the-krispy-kreme-the-parents-jury-has-spoken/2007/03/18/1174152882302.html

Mind you, it's nothing to do with them being halal - rather, it's because they're crap!