If we were to define the genuine australian hero, we would think of a hero
that rises up against wrongdoers and the powerful and self interested to reveal the truth.

A hero that stood stalwart under pressure in the defence of good old Aussie values such as freedom of speech and thought, fairness and justice for all.

In Australia, you don't dob too the authorities, you dob on the authorities.
Whistle blowing is acceptable in Australia because most australians since Eureka Stockade have harboured a healthy mistrust of authority, and rightly so.

Without Julian Assange and his Wikileaks, we would have never known how the U.S. really thinks or acts when attempting to enforce it's will upon the rest of us. If China was conducting similar activities throughout the world we would be concerned.

Australian citizenship should mean something, and for Assange it appears to mean nothing at all if the Australian Govt fails to stand by his side in the face of any trumped up charge from Sweden designed to discredit. Officially he is charged with an offence known as "Sex by Surprise".

It becomes obvious that invoking such draconian laws as anti terror against Assange would render him an institution , so therefore the plan is, to reduce his influence by having him categorised as a common pervert. Going beyond that the Canadian President has advocated his assassination, Wikileaks itself is under constant cyber attack.
All the things you would attribute to the guys wearing the black hats.

This is Australian citizen is under attack for making accessible the actual truth
through the revealing documents supplied by whistle blowers worldwide.
(And bless their brave souls for having the courage to do it).

There is no dispute about the bona-fides of the documents.

Assange says the next round of revelations will be in the corporate sector.
Whilst Assange himself never passes judgement on content, I think this where the dirtiest linen/truths of all will be revealed.
Through knowing truth we empower ourselves. Go Julian!.

"Through knowing truth we empower ourselves."

Well put thinker 2. Grass roots support for Assange is strong and that in itself is inspiring. This positive response should highlight to those in power that truth is far more effective and powerful than any form of deceit even if 'imagined' for higher purposes.

This bloke is delving into terrorism.
What has american infastructure got to do with knowing.

It's revealing that when we stumble upon a person of the calibre of Julian Assange - which is rare in this world - most ordinary people recognise a person who stands for truth and integrity. Yet, it is telling that those in positions of power and "authority" see this "truth and integrity" as something that must be stopped at any cost.

I agree Thinker, Julian Assange is without a doubt probably the greatest contributor to Western- if not global societies today;

Thanks to his actions the citizens of every democratic country, who may have been before unaware or given the benefit of a doubt- are now informed exactly what kind of people are representing them, and are now able to judge clearly if they would support such a person and let their crooked business continue knowing it's out in the open- because they themselves are too lazy to even bother spending five minutes browsing party policy homepages and pretend whatever Labor (or Liberal) do is not their own fault for voting for them, or get off the arses, take responsibility and demand better to hopefully steer their countries back on the right direction.

Now all Democrats voters in the USA would now need to think long and hard before they'd want to re-elect Hilary Clinton- a woman who tries to steal personal details off UN members (strangely, what she is accusing Mr Assange of despite the fact that he isnt).

Oh, and now Julian's "crime" is now "having consentual sex- but without a condom"- clearly illegal by Swedish law, and a worthy matter for interpol to be on the case! (apparently BOTH witnesses are actually members of some Christian society- which makes one wonder).

And to those 'oh this is anti-Western' morons (you know who you are)- I welcome the leaks, I'd welcome any scandal being committed by any major national leader or politician to be brought to our attention, be it the USA or Iran (although US citizens, actually capable of voting for their government, would benefit more)- and that is including Australia; it would be far better a western source leaked to Western media first so that Western people might be able to fix it before it gets out of hand, than a jihadi leaking it to Islamic media and using it for recruiting, while we, meanwhile, are unaware and fail to change it sooner?
Of course not, they would NEVER have found out right?

First it was the terrorist trained David Hicks who was an aussie 'hero' and now its Julian Assange. It must be a competition to see which one will be aussie of the year now that climate science faith has failed.

Don't forget Ned Kelly, Runner.

I gonna mail the Kiwi's and ask them to offer Julian citizenship and you can't stop me!

Then I want to have little baby Whistles with him.

Thank you Runner, in a very real way Julian has Christ like qualities. His determination to expose the oppression of power and to give hope to those who fall victim to it's excesses is the same.

His mission is to bring us the truth something the authorities are keen to deny us and like Christ he has a very real chance of becoming a martyr for the cause.

If or when that occurs will we see you in the crowd calling for his crucifixion or it's equivalent? Probably.

Please have pity on runner for he knows not what he does.

I probably wouldn't go so far as to call
Julian Assange a "true Aussie hero" just yet,
but he has managed to capture the attention
of the world's elites in a way that very few
Aussies have. His demonisation by Western
governments and the MSM is quite fascinating,
given that nobody seems to be able to nominate
exactly what laws he's alleged to have broken
and where, other than some very obviously trumped
up charges of sexual assault in Sweden.

It's quite likely that he will become something
of a folk hero, because ultimately what he's doing
could well be beneficial to us all. There's far too
much cloak and dagger BS involved in government and
corporate activities generally, and secrecy facilitates
illegality, excess and conflict.

I think the kind of reluctant transparency that Wikileaks
has foisted on the world could well end up being seen as a
critical historical moment, in which case Mr Assange could
be seen as a kind of hero.

@ runner: I can't recall anybody describing Hicks as any
kind of hero. And what's it got to do with climate science?

runner,

Julian Assange wrote:
"The whole universe or the structure that perceives it is a worthy opponent, but try as I may, I cannot escape the sound of suffering. Perhaps as an old man I will take great comfort in pottering around in a lab and gently talking to students in the summer evening and will accept suffering with insouciance. But not now, men in their prime, if they have any convictions are tasked to act upon them."

Sounds most unlike a terrorist to me.

Do you have any convictions as deeply held as those set out above, runner? Are you tasked to act upon anything greater than criticising one who opens the way for truth to be delivered into the hands of the people?

I just wish he'd release the password for the insurance file, but I understand why he hasn't. I wonder what it contains, it must be big or he'd be dead already?

Oh I take it Csteele you are pleased that Mr Assange has exposed the gw fraud?

btw csteele you trying to equate the character of this turkey with that of Christ really demonstrates how little you know of either.

runner,

Although you seem at pains to have us all believe that you're an authority on what it is to be Christian, your typical demeanour when responding on OLO is often mean-spirited, and decidedly un-Christian in bearing.
csteele is right on the money in pointing out the similarity of circumstance between Christ and Assange.

A flawed response runner if you try to make a comparsion between Assange and Hicks.

They are two entirely different people and two entirely different sets of circumstances. Just because someone is labelled a 'terrorist' does not mean that they actually are a terrorist especially when the accusations come from dubious sources.

I would have thought your sense of purpose to expose deception would be stronger given your general comments on OLO and about climate change and morality.

I would hesitate to call Mr.Assange a hero just yet.
He has 'leaked' some supposedly top secret documents that may well put some people's lives in danger.

If he is able to achieve this feat, then I hope he won't put his 'talents' to trying something sinister.

I will hold my judgement about him until we see the full effect of his actions in the world, and to be sure there is no truth in the sex allegations leveled at him in Sweden.
There hasn't even been a trial...yet.

Assange did not leak any documents.

The documents were leaked by others and all he did was put them into the public arena on their behalf.

He's been doing this for quite a while already and, despite what some imply, has released documents from other countries as well.

People seem more inclined to "shoot the messenger" and are ignoring the content of what has surfaced.

The media are already assassinating his character with false and contrived accusations of displays of petulance and a short temper.
In truth, he's doing what they wish they could have done. The days of the "D-Notice" have long gone and the major media owners are just the PR department of their respective governments.

I for one would like to know the truth about what's happening in the world before - for example - I send my sons off to die in a hopeless war based on lies.

Shakespeare wrote: "...to speak what we feel, not what we ought to..."

Julian Assange will be pilloried by the smiling, Armani clad goons - no doubt of it, & the vested interests don't like having their dirty laundry aired, wanting him silenced or shut down.

What remains to be seen is whether or not those persons with integrity, knowing the truth, will step forward and validate what the leaked cables & mails have elucidated.

Oh no, I have a mortgage, my BMW payments, that time share on Curtis Island... can't say that ... might prejudice things.
But years later your conscience will eat you away for not coming forwards when it could have counted.

All the best Julian...pity the world did not have more people with the testicular fortitude, & spine you have. Maybe this will galvanise like minded individuals to follow suit.

I too applaud Assange.
For the last twenty years we've existed (I won't say "lived") in a world of imperial triumphalism and tawdry consumerism while our masters, the ones Assange exposes, preside over their lucrative chaos, corruption and intrigue.
Rudd and H Clinton have to go down as among the most despicable characters to ever strut the world stage--and both ostensibly from the left!

'Hero' is inappropriate. Anyhow, it is a term weakened by frequent and frivolous media references.

The real issue here is the lack of support from the Australian government for a citizen who is in a spot of severe, possibly life-threatening bother overseas.

It is outrageous that the Australian government is joining in the scurrilous attacks which have even descended into demands that he be killed. This lawyer puts it well,

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x9693372

Someone indicated some similarity with Hicks. The only similarity and it is a very important one is that the Howard government played politics and did not support an Australian citizen, just as is happening now with Assange, under our Joolia. Both Howard and Gillard are lawyers and would, or should, have known better.

Just who does the Australian government represent and importantly, what does it represent? What government ditches one of its citizens and adds fuel to the fire? Is Assange suddenly a Stateless person?

It could be seen as treason. The privacy of many countries has been compromised. A list of stratigic sites is in no ones interest but terrorists.

Very good points, Cornflower.

I'm appalled at the Australian Government's
obsequious toadying for the USA. Whether or
not you regard Assange as any kind of "hero",
he is still an Australian citizen who is entitled
to the full benefits and protections therein.

It seems that Australian sovereignty, citizenship
and law mean little when Uncle Sam comes knocking,
as this and other recent cases demonstrate.

579,

How is that even remotely relevant to whether the Australian government should be representing and protecting the rights of one of its citizens?

"the privacy of many countries has been compromised"!
How?

"A list of stratigic sites is in no ones interest but terrorists"
Haha! Of course, the VOTERS of that society would not benefit at all knowing that individuals they THOUGHT they could trust more than this would try to stand for re-election, and would now know they need to take more responsibility. Meanwhile, the terrorists are somehow going to invent a whole new attack from this knowledge, um, how?

Of course you don't have the answer, but are just posturing, am I right?

If my neighbor had been accusing my mentally ill uncle of sneaking into his and my garden at night and stealing the vegetables, and I had been arguing he was wrong (believing it was actually him)- if somebody recorded it and proved it was correct, would I punish that person because of it? Or, would I apologize to my neighbor (and make peace!) and take steps to stop my uncle wandering around and cause further damage (possibly to himself)?

Anyway guys, Runner and Boaz are obvious- in their simple minds, criticism of America = attack, and must therefore be the work of none other than the dastardly alliance of communists and terrorists and everything else that they don't like:

Also, the government were RIGHT in ignoring Hicks, because he had joined several armed terrorist groups and eventually the Taliban, and thus poses a credible security threat and anti-western individual:

They have NOTHING on Julian Assange because he does NOTHING but a public service to ALL westerners, except embarass crooked people in high places. They have no excuse to deny his rights (far more than Hicks) because he is HELPING DEMOCRACY and all democratic Western Citizens- surely this doesn't seem strange to you (except you Runner, who doesn't like democracy and is happy to pretend along anything that furthers your cause).

Dear Knig Hazza,

I agree with your post except for one item. Clinton cannot be re-elected since she does not hold any elective office. She has been appointed to be Secretary of State.

Julian Assange, a true Aussie hero? Apparently not according to the Australian government, who prefer to support their political alliance with the US over one of their own citizens. And, as far as the US is concerned Assange is a troublemaker. Sarah Palin accuses him of "having blood on his hands," while others are screaming for his execution. There's no doubt that Assange's websites's release of 250,000 confidential US government cables is more of an embarrassment to the US than anything else. However, his actions bring into question what does it mean to be an Australian citizen? (Hence the similarity with David Hicks). As one website quoted, "Assange remains an Australian citizen and he is due the protection we offer to all our citizens ..."
This protection cannot be withdrawn simply because their actions have upset somebody in power somewhere. Or can they? We'll have to wait and see what develops. But if history is anything to go by, Assange may well end up like the previous Aussie heroes - being abandoned by those in power.

Perhaps this Brzezinski interview might be of interest to some:

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,733079,00.html

Pelican you write
'A flawed response runner if you try to make a comparsion between Assange and Hicks. '

The point I was making was the promptness of those who hate any form of authority to make a hero over a very dubious character. For csteele and poirot to make any comparison with Christ displays total ignorance at best.

This from Australia's top law officer is truly disgusting,

"WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange may have broken Australian law and may not be welcomed back to the country if convicted, Attorney-General Robert McClelland says."
http://news.theage.com.au/breaking-news-national/australia-to-help-us-over-assange-20101205-18l53.html

In view of that should Assange be applying to Britain as a political refugee? Has he been threatened with becoming a stateless person?

Would the French cop such tawdry treatment of a citizen? How many migrants would be reading that and thinking to themselves "I escaped from a totalitarian government like that to come to Australia".

Parliament should be recalled immediately, Robert McClelland should be made to account for himself in Parliament, have his behind solidly kicked and be forced to resign. How dare an Attorney-General make threats against a citizen that he might not be welcomed back into Australia, at the same time indicating the government was more concerned about the interests of the present US administration?

Regrettably Abbott is similarly inclined. So much for the so-called 'Liberal' Party.

Credit where credit is due, the only one who has come out well is Bob Brown. I wonder if the Greens realise what a golden opportunity this is to put blue sky between themselves and the major parties?

runner,

I'm merely comparing a shift in dynamics and a similar response from "authority" to one that occurred with the emergence of Christ.

Authority is often merely a tool to be wielded and manipulated in the service of self-interested power brokers.

George
The link to the Brezinzski interview was interesting and I liked this response in relation to how President Obama should respond:

"Brzezinski: To relax and to carry on. His basic instincts on the large issues of foreign policy are fundamentally correct and in tune with history."

The exaggerated response to Wikileaks and likening Assange to a terrorist do more damage to US relations and standing than any revelations appealing to a public right to know.

runner
Your interpretation of Wikileaks support as akin to an anti-authority stance is a broad generalisation. Supporters of Assange in the main, I believe, just hold authority to a higher standard and expect more from those who claim to represent their citizens. Dishonest politics and it's cousin 'spin' have seen their day, their time is over but it will be a slow evolution methinks.

Wikileaks is part of that movement towards a higher standard - that is all.

Geroge:

I also appreciate your link to the "de Spiegel," article and the Brzezinski interview. The heading "Spokespersons of US Right "in most cases stunningly ignorant," precedes the advice Brzezinski gives to the US President. Whether the US President heeds the advice is of course a different story - he's got his future to think of - and it's a balancing act at the best of times.

Pelican
'Assange in the main, I believe, just hold authority to a higher standard and expect more from those who claim to represent their citizens. Dishonest politics and it's cousin 'spin' have seen their day, their time is over but it will be a slow evolution methinks.'

Then this angel of light should have no fear in handing himself in to be judged by the courts for his alleged crimes seen he himself is now seen as an 'authority' figure. No doubt you also think the IPCC should face court for their deceit and spin.

runner,

Assange is not seen as an authority figure. He is regarded as someone who had enough b@**s to set up a facilitating mechanism whereby the rest of us could see just how cleverly "authority" manipulates the smoke and mirrors.

According to CNN, his lawyer has announced that Assange is in the process of making arrangements to meet with British police - probably concerning the Swedish allegations.

Also Swiss based PostFinance has decided to end "its business arrangement" with Assange based on the technicality that Assange listed his place of residence as Switzerland - which is in fact his lawyer's address used by Assange for bank correspondence.

Silly me. I still have an old fashioned view on all this. I respect
others rights to confidentiality, even if at work.

So how many of you would be prepared to have every discussion that
you have had at work, be publicly exposed on the internet?

Yes Yabby, but these are the candid thoughts of our decision makers. Not something small, private and effecting only the immediate few. This the truth lying under the enormous weight of spin, supplied by our own Govt's seeking to deliberately mislead us. Or at very least conceal the truth from us.

I think this far too important to take it down to that level.

Perhaps we should have your assets and your bank accounts frozen, so that the donations of your supporters can no longer be used to put such a frivolous viewpoint.

But seriously this issue may well be the most defining issue of our future, if your talking about the control of information, and should not be diverted into to an individual privacy argument.

The stakes are too high to allow that to happen. In a world where few heroes exist except on television.

That's the price you pay for being a politician, Yabby.
If you act, speak, morally and ethically, then you have nothing to worry about. OTOH, if you want to be a slime ball, then look out.

Yabby:

I think there's a slight difference in this case - it being elected
governments whose dealing and activities are being exposed. Governments need to be held accountable and people need access to information so that they can have the ability to make choices, people need to be aware of what their choices are. Policital freedom includes the right to criticize government policies. The right to vote does not have much value if people lack the information to vote in their own best interests. People need information to make informed decisions on political issues.

My apologies David F you are correct, (I had mistakenly assumed she was vice President and not secretary of State).

“Policital freedom includes the right to criticize government policies.”

You can’t in Aussie unless willing to accept the unpleasant consequences alone after losing.

*If you act, speak, morally and ethically, then you have nothing to worry about. OTOH, if you want to be a slime ball, then look out.*

Fair enough RawMustard. We could apply the same principle to your
dealings with your wife, or any employer.

Perhaps they might be interested in your confidential converstations
with others.

You would clearly have no problems with having any of your confidential
conversastions, published on the internet.

We will have to agree to disagree, or perhaps I will just remain
old fashioned about these things. My intergrity matters to me.

Yabby
I have some sympathy for your point of view and the value of privacy . However, our personal emails are not relevant to the formulation of policy, something that affects us all in a democracy.

As a former public servant I would have no problems in seeing my emails published should it be deemed important enough to government business, even the ones that might reveal the impact of lack of resources on service delivery including criticisms. In reverse emails that criticise myself (if they exist-I suspect they do) would also be welcome. I am quite capable of arguing a point and giving reasons for my actions, if it relates to taxpayer funded programs.

Taxpayers should be able to access far more information than they currently do including a breakdown of expenses clearly displayed on a website (just one idea).

If you are a public figure and have the power to make decisions that affect other people, those actions should be transparent. A personal email to your wife or mistress is just that 'personal'. It is not relevant to government policy nor is one asking what is on the menu for dinner, or what coloured underpants one is wearing. I don't think Wikileaks or similar expose' sites would be interested nor would it be in the basket of 'public right to know'.

Granted there are shades of grey on this but in the long term these actions serve rather than hinder democracy. Integrity is a two way street.

Yabby, if you don't want others to air your dirty laundry for you, then don't take a public position. What my wife and I or you and yours gets up to has nothing to do with other people, it is our private life. Our private lives do not effect the public directly, so they have no right to them. A politician, actor, singer, have put certain parts of their life in the public domain; by doing so they must accept that certain things they say and do are going to be made public, particularly matters that effect the public. Now if these docs were about their private lives and what they and the partners get up to in the privacy of their own lives, then yes I would agree with you.

*Taxpayers should be able to access far more information than they currently do including a breakdown of expenses clearly displayed on a website (just one idea).*

I have no problem with that at all, Pelican.

*What my wife and I or you and yours gets up to has nothing to do with other people, it is our private life*

Ah RawMustard, but she might want to know, what you have been
saying confidentially, to the cute new secretary at work. It
might as well be exposed, so people know the truth about you. The
same goes for your employer.

Sorry, but if somebody tells me something in private confidence,
that is where it stays. If anyone published those things, by
whatever means, for me they would be fair game

All the way thinker, This guy is in the true aussie spirit the one we have been loosing over the last decade. Time a few more people realise it and start back in the right direction.
As for these charges, Sex has always been a surprise to me.

The following website may be of interest to some:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2010/jul/14/julian-assange-whistleblower-wikileaks

Yabby,

When you say, "My integrity is important to me." in the context of this discussion, what you probably mean is that from your point of view the "perception" of your integrity by those who know you is important to you.
If by "integrity" you mean the adherence to moral and ethical principles and honesty - these are the qualities we expect to be demonstrated by those who we employ to represent our interests in the public arena.
Wikileaks reveals instances where our perception of the integrity of our representatives does not match their conduct. They are paid by us and are, therefore, in our service. We have every right to expect transparency.

An open letter has been sent to Julia Gillard which has almost 200 prominent names attached, appealing for the protection of Julian Assange.

http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/41914.html

Well if I'm in the mood for a bit of "Spank Banky" I'll certainly tell her exactly what I thought of the cute little secretary at work :)

Yabby, if you have an employee that's fiddling the till, wouldn't you want me to tell you?

These pollies are supposed to be our employees and if they're fiddling the till, I wanna know about it :)

It's a really simple matter balancing personal privacy with public policy being actually public.

If Kevin Rudd visits a prostitute, it really isn't anyone's business.
If Kevin Rudd visits a prostitute, but had used his parliamentary expense coverage allowance in a way it wasn't supposed to be (eg to buy her flashy jewelry, then it's the public business.

In other words, it becomes a matter when you start deviating from your JOB, that the boss (eg voters) deserve a right to know what their employees and representatives are doing with their money- more important in a democracy where this employee is making decisions on the company in our name but potentially against our wishes.

*what you probably mean is that from your point of view the "perception" of your integrity by those who know you is important to you.*

Nope Poirot, it matters to me. If I didn't have principlies by
which I live, I'd have nothing. I never care too much what others
think, but those who know me well, know my values.

*They are paid by us and are, therefore, in our service. We have every right to expect transparency.*

The same applies to your boss at work. So if I forwarded that
confidential email on to him, where you wrote what you really
thought of him, you would seemingly not have a problem.

Just heard some breaking news on BBC that Assange has been arrested by British police.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/12/07/3086417.htm

"Ms Robinson says Mr Assange will approach Australia's High Commission in London for consular assistance."

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Article/201012115849036

pelican,
Another way of looking at the dilemma can be found in a previous interview of DER SPIEGEL with the former US ambassador to Germany, in particular:

“Their release could damage important cooperation among governments or in some countries endanger dissidents who have put their trust in the United States. I hope that the publications who are printing them, including DER SPIEGEL, will think carefully about what they are doing. Randomly releasing "secrets" does not necessarily serve the goal of international understanding.” (http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,731794,00.htm).

You probably know this, but still: You can subscribe for free to the spiegel.online newsletter containing timely English translations of the main articles appearing in the prestigious DER SPIEGEL weekly that you have to pay EUR 3.80 for if you want to read the German original.

I think the view of US seen from here (I live now in Germany) is more sophisticated, less black&white, love-or-hate, than what I was used to when seeing these things from Melbourne.

I suspect you are right George - about the cultural differences and how that affects perceptions of the US. The cablegate affair has revealed nothing that is not already known or suspected.

Even the recent revelations listing possible terrorist targets provide nothing surprising and highly organised terrorist groups (and foreign neighbours) would already be well apprised of potential targets of which destruction would severely limit a country's capability in a wartime situation.

I don't agree with Assange's alleged comment about President Obama being sacked or arrested for spying on the UN. Is this really surprising. Espionage has always been part of diplomatic missions and many 'trade' advisors located in foreign embassies are not there to tout local products to an export market. Why would the UN be spared any similar scrutiny? What is important is how this information is assessed, used, manipulated and possibly 'distorted' for policy decisions. WMDs are a good example.

There is also a difference between governments and a nation's people. Most people would value the friendship with Americans in general many of whom are critical of their own government's stance on many issues including Iraq and other international policy decisions over the years. Vietnam was a highly unpopular war with citizens and at least the US is a country where one can voice an alternative view (in the main). The fear is that the extremists who call for assassinations are allowed any real power, then tyranny will win.

That is the beauty of democracy and a country that values freedoms, but it has to be more than just on paper, but enacted in real life.

Poirot, "An open letter has been sent to Julia Gillard which has almost 200 prominent names attached, appealing for the protection of Julian Assange.
http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/41914.html"

Good for them, thanks for the link.

The behaviour of PM Gillard and Attorney-General Robert McClelland has been irresponsible and reprehensible and both should resign. What about accountability? What is wrong with the lily-livered backbenchers on both sides of the house that they put up with this? Obviously they all value their ambition and perks more than the rights of the citizens they are supposed to be representing.

While I am at it, what about the toadying compliance of the Fourth Estate when the US administration snaps its fingers?

Dear runner,

I venture I know considerably more about both Jesus and Julian. In fact yourself and AGIR have demonstrated over a significant period on time on this forum that you both have very little idea about what Jesus really stood for.

In that light and as with AGIR I personally deem you no longer justified in calling yourself Christian but the best I can do for you is to call you a Paulian (really no pun intended).

From what I have observed of Julian Assange who I first encountered in the book Underground many years ago he is a principled defender of our right to know the truth and a scourge to the authorities whose hold on power depends on hiding that truth from us.

No one can deny he has put himself in harms way to do so and I for one am grateful.

csteele

'In that light and as with AGIR I personally deem you no longer justified in calling yourself Christian but the best I can do for you is to call you a Paulian (really no pun intended).'

Thank God I don't need your endorsement. In actual fact I would be quite a bit more worried if I did have it after reading many of your posts.

Dear thinker2,

My apologies for getting a little off topic.

I find it interesting Gillard is happy to cosy up to Wilkie who was a leaker/whistle blower but also he first removed the classified information himself.

If Assange who just publishes is to be prosecuted then why not he?

It's extraordinary to see leaders and would-be leaders of democratic nations insisting that secrecy is essential to democracy.

Balawan

It is why they so often make the slip and refer to 'freedom from information' instead of 'freedom of information'.

Goodness, imagine if the tawdry deals between the major political parties and the billionaire miners in Australia ever became public. It just wouldn't do would it to lift the tarp and show what is crawling beneath.

Poirot:

Thanks for the link, and what an impressive list of names. We can only hope that the open letter will have an effect on our PM.

Pelican:

"That is the beauty of democracy and a country that values freedoms, but it has to be more than just on paper, but enacted in real life!"
Well said! The US has to practice what it preaches, and should be held accountable.

Cornflower:

It would be interesting to see what sort of deals were made by the political parties with the mining companies - it makes one wonder though whether any of them would pass closer scrutiny?

Emergency Protest to Defend Wikileaks & Julian Assange

Thursday December 9, 5:30pm - 8:30pm
Brisbane Square, Top of Queen St Mall, Brisbane

Julian Assange of WikiLeaks has just been arrested in London.

This is the latest in an unprecedented global campaign to destroy WikiLeaks and Assange for daring to defy the powerful and expose the lies, the hypocrisy, and the blood that their apparatus of secrecy is designed to protect. It is crucial that people in Australia stand up and be counted in defense of free speech and democratic rights. Our government has refused to defend Assange's basic rights as a citizen, and instead has joined the global campaign to silence him.

PROTEST TO DEFEND JULIAN ASSANGE AND WIKILEAKS, AND STOP THE SUPPRESSION OF FREEDOM OF SPEECH

Contact: 0401785942 (Bec)
_____

Support Wikileaks rally!

Friday December 10, 12 noon
Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade, 295 Ann Street, City.

Supporters of the website Wikileaks will mobilise on Friday to protest against the backlash it has faced for its release of more than 250,000 US government cables.

The rally date coincides with International Human Rights day. The Australian government has failed to uphold the human rights of Wikileaks editor-in-chief Julian Assange. The Australian government should be ashamed for its attacks on Wikileaks, which has been charged with no crime. Australia should not join the campaign to censor Wikileaks.

We want the Gillard government to make sure Julian Assange has the same basic rights as every other Australian citizen. Threats have been made against Assange’s life, the Australian government has a duty to protect him, not threaten him.

Contact: 0435 266 613 (Liam)

OUG:

Thanks for the information. I'm sure that many will join in to help. The government needs to know how people feel about what's happening.
The only way that politicians pay attention is if voters let their feelings be known. Great job you're doing by letting people know what they can do to help.

Thanks for your agreement nairbe and me too these days.!(about sex I mean).
It is important to retain the values my father fought for, they were somehow Australian.

That was in the days when our defence forces were only used to defend us, not represent the needs of a foreign power in other countries.
Before we chose to participate in other peoples conflicts, or use our young people for such purposes.

I still believe Julian Assange is doing the right thing by the citizens of the world.

If Wikileaks is knocked out? where will whistle blowers have to go?,
to their local police station to report misdeeds in Govt?.

Thinker 2:

I don't believe that Wikileaks will get knocked out. It's too vast and
will continue with or without Julian Assange. He's seen to that, and I feel that Wikileaks will survive no matter what happens.

Absolutely cssteele, Gillards response and our Attorney Generals Mclelland's
are a disgrace for mine.

Wilkie is officially vindicated by his own whistle blowing and the object here is to nip this Wikileaks thing in the bud before it also vindicates itself officially, which it seems to be doing pretty much daily as we see in disclosures about Kevin Rudd today, who now seems to be entirely unsuitable to be our Foreign Minister according to the Americans.

Trouble is, I'm not sure if that's a good or bad thing.

I sincerely hope your right Lexi

Thinker 2:

Check this out. It will make your hair stand on end:

http://newmatilda.com/2010/12/08/what-has-really-been-disclosed

By James O'Neill.

Riveting stuff.

Thank you OUG, it's an inspiration to know that people are mobilising over this.
I think it is so important, even a defining moment in history.

Yes Lexi, too much talk about the actual leaking and nothing about what is implied by the actions of our representatives in their quest to silence the truth teller.

How about this for a thought. It has become apparent to me that if someone accuses me of a minor crime, big business on orders from the government, now has the right to prevent me an income and access to my funds. All because they don't like what I've supposedly done, even before a charge has been brought against me and across international borders to boot!

When is the media going to discuss the implications surrounding the actions of our representatives on us the public? Instead they condemn the leaks whilst using the leaks to secure their own agendas, hypocrites!

RM:

There is a huge amount of support gathering for Julian Assange, it will be interesting to see what develops next and what effect (if any) public pressure has on our government.

Lexi
That New Matilda article was an eye opener - the stories about CIA activity and the case of mistaken identity re Al-Masri should be more reported including attempts to block an impending court case.

One wonders, as the article suggests, that the emphasis on the 'gossip' content of the cables masks a intent to deflect interest away from some of the more potent information however, in the real world most media organisations would I think be very focussed on content.

The latest revelations about US cables concerning Kevin Rudd only confirm the criticism from within his own party and from other sources. So he is a micro-manager - no new revelations there and hardly a threat to national security. One would expect Embassy officials to report their opinons based on exposure to Australian media and other sources.

Pelican:

I was totally gosmacked by the New Matilda article. It makes you wonder how much else is out there that we don't know about. And possibly that's why the US is so adamant at concealing it. Our media seems to be focusing on superficial stuff. And our government is playing along.

I have to say I'm underwhelmed by all these events and the article Lexi provided.
Have we been living under a rock?
Hasn't the US and its allies been sporting their corrupt credentials for decades?
All that's happened is their crudely woven fabric of lies and deceit (the stuff of dreams!) has split at the seams; more frightful than the usual innuendoes because it's verbatim, easily repaired I'm sure. And people are gobsmacked? I must be a cynic!
Don't worry, citizens, order will be restored soon and you can all get back to your unruffled lives..

Squeers, "Hasn't the US and its allies been sporting their corrupt credentials for decades?"

Well you wouldn't be expecting to see any leaks from other countries and there are reasons why that is the case.

Dear Lexi - thanks for the link.

Dear Squeers,

I suppose it all comes down to proof. As you point out, we are now seeing verbatim evidence of dubious and corrupt activities. It will be interesting to see if this really is a change in the dynamics of international relations or whether it is just something quickly mended and business carried on as usual...as we know, apathy usually reigns supreme.

I must say, however, that I'm intrigued by that nice furry little critter regularly trotted out by the Americans called "bilateral relations". Apparently it is by nature a creature of delicate sensibilities and is easily harmed or "negatively impacted" by any robust criticism of its master by her allies.

Cornflour:
<Well you wouldn't be expecting to see any leaks from other countries and there are reasons why that is the case>

True, I don't say any country is "without sin", but the fact is the US has been choreographing world events since WW2, with Australia as its obsequious mate. The way the Asian century is unravelling, they better both make sure they can dance.
As for "democracy".. It'd be funny if it wasn't such a tired old joke.
I think it's important we all reflect that our governments "represent" us, for my money, faithfully.

Assange wrote this editorial for the Australian hours before his arrest.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/in-depth/wikileaks/dont-shoot-messenger-for-revealing-uncomfortable-truths/story-fn775xjq-1225967241332

it seems clear...the usa didnt like mr rudd
and thanks to treason by mark habribe..got the julia they wanted

this should be a matter of grave concern

it also reveals much of the reasoning..of why julia moved so fast..in getting rid of the issues..pre her rush to election

i note the media complicioty in talking up talking points ..thus avoiding analisis of the infomartion being revealed..there is so much not being talked about...like not using a condom isnt rape..

the links to sweden are also particularilly of concern
this is a neutral party..historiclly..but clearly now has thrown its hand in with the globalists...who didnt want rudd..but did want julia

im writing this on an old computa..because my new lap top was killed for the bad crime of making a donation to wikileaks...its just how the globalist monoploly does its work..[your with them..[like mark hab-bribe..[ie the power brokers..killing the workers..from within]..

or your with the tar-baby

i cant even be botherd to explain that one

ditto i cant be botherd explaining the linkage between a julian
or the joke of a julia

Thanks for the heads-up, Poirot.

It's good to hear it from the horse's mouth,
so to speak. I think Julian Assange is fast
approaching "Aussie hero" status, if the comments
on his article are anything to go by.

A danger with all this stuff, you are believing it all as if it could not be corrupted, It is just more media BS, and has not been scrutinized for its truth.

I’m just throwing the below in here because I don’t understand three points. First was he slept with a feminist, I don’t get what is implied there. And the second is fatherless Aussies grow up here distrusting authority…? Third is what is a “gender lawyer”?

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/opinion/telling-truth-is-julian-assanges-only-crime/story-e6frezz0-1225967839278

The Daily Mail's fine piece on the allegations claimed Assange slept with a feminist who had lent him her apartment when he was in Stockholm for a seminar.

They reportedly went out for dinner and then home to her flat and had sex, during which a condom broke. They remained on friendly terms, with the woman throwing him a party the next night.

By the following day, however, he had already met another admirer, in the seminar audience, with whom he was "intimate" after lunch.

A couple of days later Assange and his new girl slept together at her house using a condom. The next morning they had sex again, without a condom. She later complained that she was upset about his refusal to wear a condom. Nevertheless they went for breakfast together and he promised to stay in touch.

Then she phoned the woman in whose flat Assange was staying and learned he'd been sleeping with both of them. "The sex had been consensual from the start but had eventually turned into abuse," they told a reporter.

The women went to the police and the media and hired a "gender lawyer" to go after Assange using Sweden's complex sex laws.

His mother Christine, who runs a puppet theatre in Queensland, has denied to The Sunshine Coast Daily that she was ever a hippie. But she brought up her son with a distrust of authority, common to fatherless boys.

It is natural for a nation to protect it's interests but often this agenda conflicts with principles of freedom, competition, self-determination, human compassion and equality. International relations is subject to wheeling and dealing much of it is not transparent nor is it always win-win for ordinary people.

Dubious interventions into the affairs of other nations when in conflict with US interests is only one aspect. America is not alone but it has a high profile, is a superpower and thus will naturally invite greater criticism. However all nations work in their own interests (as they should) but how far does this go when balancing ethical considerations? The despot countries don't get a free pass with Wikileaks exposure either where there is little concern often for community wellbeing.

Sometimes governments act outside their nation's interests or perpetrate some injustice on another nation (usually poorer) for economic gain. It is natural for people to seek some truth in government, to ask why and there is an expectation and a presumption of accountability.

Do governments represent their people or do they act as separate entities divorced from their populace, working at some higher level out of reach of criticism, scrutiny and accountability? The wider that gap between government and people (or the perception), the more discontent grows and this is why Wikileaks and other jouranlistic endevours are an important part of the mix.

Yes there are questions about who gets to decide what is leaked and the impacts, but when governments set out to deceive they cannot expect that apathy will save them all the time. Generally speaking if there is nothing to hide (other than national security) exposure should not be an issue.

That is why Wikileaks has been well received at the grass roots. People are fed up with spin. People have a vested interest in decisions which impact on quality of life (not just domestically).

In the long run it can only be a good thing as many have summised. Far too much is being made of Assange the person rather than Wikileaks the organisation.

Yes, the US has been doing "things" for decades - but this is the first time that they seem genuinely concerned with what's going to come out next, and they are being forced to face it. They can no longer appear to be "the good guys" when facts are appearing to the contrary. And it's the facts that should matter to us all. Brushing things aside with 'Oh but they've been doing it for ages," is no longer good enough! And their PR of being the world's "saviours" is beginning to look a bit tarnished!

cont'd ...

There's another article in New Matilda that worth a look. It's called,
"They Lock Up Journalists, Don't They?" by Austin Mackell. It puts things into perspective.

I think that is a well put and balanced assessment and view Pelican.

And Jewely your link and information is informative and displays facts I hadn't known. Our own national ABC radio news station as we speak, keeps saying he is charged with rape in their copy and are running a question "is Julian Assange a hero or a villain"

Despite the emotive an inaccurate terminology of their copy 80% of their listeners say he is a hero. I would suggest we are running about the same percentages or better on this forum.

I have been fearful that political awareness at street level has become alarmingly low and the generations coming through have become less and less informed, but thankfully their is light in this digital age when someone like Julian Assange can make a difference.

With internet control in the hands of the few we have very much to fear.This must not happen and when hero's do their thing for obviously just causes like the exposure of the truth, rather than pretend to ourselves that we would do the same if we were them, we should at the very least not let them go down alone and stand by them.

This was the point of my post in the first place. Is this a defining moment in history?.
Does Assange's Wikileaks provide a valuable source of truth in Gov't?, yes it does,
and can we really live without the right to know the facts, without fear?.
I don't think we can. I certainly couldn't anyway.

I keep coming across other information Thinker which mostly puzzles me more… like this one;

http://radsoft.net/news/20101202,00.shtml

But Claes Borgström knew better. He and his friend and colleague Marianne Ny had been working on expanding the legal concept of rape in Sweden. They were interested in two sweeping changes to current legislation, whereof the most important one is that people themselves no longer decide when they've been raped - their governments do.

The other second change is relatively unimportant - but perhaps more shattering worldwide: almost anything can be considered rape - even and especially nonviolent and consensual acts.

Consensual sex can be rape, according to Borgström and Ny - but the alleged victims don't decide - they do.

The new laws which establish these 'precedents' are not yet on the books - but it's Marianne Ny's intention to make the Assange affair into a test case for that purpose.

In other words: Marianne Ny wants to try Julian Assange for a something that wasn't a crime when it took place.

http://www.abc.net.au/local/stories/2010/12/09/3089103.htm
Coldblood, a representative of Anonymous who spoke to the ABC's AM program, says companies such as Mastercard have been targeted in order to show corporations that 'it's not just governments they need to keep happy - it's the users as well they need to keep happy'.

"Operation Payback is a way to highlight to these companies that if they bow down to government pressure that they will face repercussions from their users of their services," says Coldblood.

Anonymous have launched barrages of data at the companies' websites to bring them down, a technique known as Distributed Denial of Service and one that that EFF doesn't support.

http://www.smh.com.au/technology/security/the-aussie-who-blitzed-visa-mastercard-and-paypal-with-the-low-orbit-ion-cannon-20101209-18qr1.html?from=smh_sb
A Sydney man, whose identity is known to this website but spoke on condition of anonymity, said the group used an application called Low Orbit Ion Cannon (LOIC) to carry out the attacks. Each user of the program voluntarily signs up to be part of a "botnet" of computers and their collective power is used to take down websites.

http://www.socialist-alliance.org/page.php?page=1070
Aussie Protests

"...in a very real way Julian has Christ like qualities"

I think that's the looniest comment I've ever read on this site.

Oi Stg! I resemble that remark!

But then I'm not the only one...

“... states whose legitimacy or sovereignty is challenged by idealists tend to find ways of using their own laws to defend themselves. Look what happened to that bloke who ended up on a cross outside Jerusalem.” Jonathan Holmes, The Drum.

Ah but that is boring and frankly not that loony so lets try;

JUlian aSSangE (Cue Twightlight Zone music)

Not impressed? Okay lets try again;

JULIAN ASSANGE - ANGA JESUS NAIL - ANGA is a Greek name meaning holy or pure.

A more authoritative source perhaps?

Revelations Ch1:12 I turned around to see the voice that was speaking to me. And when I turned I saw seven golden lampstands, 13 and among the lampstands was someone "like a son of man," dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest. 14 His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire.

Hair white like wool? You in yet?

Verse 16; In his right hand he held seven stars, and coming out of his mouth was a sharp, double-edged sword.

Julian is from the seventh continent and the journalistic creed about the pen and the sword is delivered in the imagery.

Ah I could go on with further deep numerology and other signs but I get the sense you an unbeliever in Julian. Shame!

Instead would you like to contribute to the following poll run by the Landover Baptist Church?
http://www.landoverbaptist.net/showthread.php?t=54983

clearly ..his voice isnt 'heard in the steeets'[he is in jail]

the 7 stars are possably on the aussie flag..>on the aussie-passport

the whore of babble-on..has me flumoxed..

but he is clearly saying
set the prisoners free

he does seem adept at breaking the seal's
that those servingh babble have sealed..even upon the media

its funny..we allways think only the mundane shall occure in our lifetimes

yet each generation has waited the christ

but its not the christ ,...jesus said who would come
but the comforter?..sun of man..[whatever]

[the christ came back after 3 days
rebutting the theory of a reserction day..and dead meaning dead]

anyhow the tarbaby...has gods love
so beware what ye lot think you can do to stop this
the price..can be much more than you lot..who thought to..alone know it all...could ever be able to realise

indeed
set the prisoners free
end rendition..end fussing fighting and lying

get on ya knees and repent

how much more of gods creation you lot seeking to despoil?

realise many of you stooges
are working for evil ...and in vain

is it worth selling ya souls
for a place in hell?

Hilarious. Surely somebody in Pentecostal US
TV-land has dubbed him the Antichrist by now?

More from New Matilda:

http://newmatilda.com/2010/12/09/enough-sausages-assange

by Ben Pobjie.

And UOG he was born under the Southern Cross. He came from the 'midst of seven candles' KJV.

You are far better at this than I.

I'm sure even Stg must be having doubt now.

Well done.

"The Crest of the Arms, consisting of a seven-pointed gold star on a blue and gold wreath. Six points represent each of the States of the Commonwealth, the seventh point represents the Commonwealth Territories."

Have we found our 'gold sash' especially when adorned with golden wattle?

It's easy to be fascinated when people like Assange seem to appear out of nowhere. they seem to possess a kind of avant-garde eccentricity which gives rise to uncommon foresight and determination.
Below is an excellent article on the background and formative influences of Assange.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/in-depth/wikileaks/julian-assange-wild-shild-of-free-speech/story-fn775xjq-1225969230839

I guess part of keeping him locked up is hoping the interest in him dies out a bit.

I came across this one which made me smile:

http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/opinion/blogs/blunt-instrument/why-is-australia-silent-on-julian-assange/20101207-18n6m.html
“It doesn't mean he gets a free pass on the allegations against him in Sweden, but it should mean that at the very least those moronic politicians and media celebretards in the US who've been calling for his murder should be getting a visit from one of our consular officials, preferably an ex-SAS or Commando Regiment old boy, to have a quiet word in their shell-like about how seriously we take incitement to murder our fellow little Vegemiters.”

i hear the ansuss accord is a bit...shokking
seems we quietly...[on the qt]...
can now exchange info...with nz[zzzzzz]..again

pist...dont let the people know
[pass it on][govt must keep this secret]
ie only talk about it..at the weekly pss-up at the usa embassy

the people might hit the streets...lol

oh and the vat=i-can...800 mess-ages exchanged there
not of course formal policy...just gossip...as usual

its tghe gift that keeps on giving
so much like watching slutious housewives..or these are the..'days of their wives'

like sand through the hourglass
like fat sliding off ya thighs

these are the secretss
for those with...only eyes

never put this stuff...onto a ga ga stick
or for julians sake..dont get caught

tghis page will self destract

in 10 minutes
4 three...2 one...pooof

this message is now messanged
[you...downer..stop massaging that sussaage]
havnt you got some gossip..for the yanks...

they expect your fiction..not ya friction

where is kim beastly...kimbo mate...you used to be our best boy
why you not tall-king..so much anymore...

you have changed mate..

[buddy]..no wonder you dont get invites
ooops sorry bluey...i.forget where you live now,...lol

keep up the spin....buddy boy

johnnmy....maaate...you missed your last drop
how we going to get ya rumour..and..in-u-end-0..duh..[info]...now

The Age newspaper in Melbourne had an interesting editorial on Julian Assange and the Public's Right To Know:

http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/editorial/julian-assange-and-the-publics-right-to-know-20101211-18tdp.html

Dear Lexi,

I found the following very powerful.

http://atlanticfreepress.com/news/1/13939-an-intelligence-defense-of-julian-assange.html

csteele:

Thanks for the link. I found it more than powerful. It scared the living daylights out of me, especially when I did a bit of research on how the author Susan Lindaueris was treated by her own country.
Thank God she was cleared of all charges, but her treatment reads like a Hollywood thriller. Scary stuff! Makes you wonder what will happen to Julian Assange.

I’ve been prowling around youtube watching stuff on the Hay girls torture cabins in the 60’s – 70’s. But came across this Assange discussion with his lawyer and Frost then got hooked on a few more.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=duh7eSBnVZE

And Julian talking to – err, some chick.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bD5dxkPwibU&feature=related
He mentions the media not being very nice… and they weren’t until recently when I think they got worried about not being able to repeat stuff themselves.

Oh and this crazy woman… does she think America owns the internet?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6JdQWli8jQ&feature=related

I enjoyed this one the most.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x0Bc6p1ZjGk&feature=related

Hmm... US vs Canada
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WgJDQN-NoGE&feature=related

This guy was interesting. Saying the US state department is suffering from political autism, loved it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQKZzzVzYSE&feature=related

Last bit of news I read…
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/ipad-application/charges-baseless-says-assange-lawyer/story-fn6bfm6w-1225969774567
“Bjrn Hurtig, who is representing Assange in Sweden, said the documents, which form part of the official Swedish investigation, revealed two women had lied about being coerced into having sex with Mr Assange, 39.”

Wikileaks will not change a thing ... other, than perhaps, officialdom in its various manifestations, being more reticent in reports.

Most thoughtful people will not be surprised at the revelations ... hardly world-shattering.

Those of the left will see only that their beliefs about the US are vindicated; those of the middle, pragmatists, will not move from their position; those of the right will believe that the west has acted rightly. These leaks will only serve to confirm what various goups already believe.

Governments have shown outrage. This would be the expected, official line.

What change is going to occur? How will it manifest itself? Governments are hardly likely to be toppled. People will be cautious of what is told to them by politicians, or spread in the media. This is hardly new.

Without comparable leaks from other governments, including those of China, the Middle East, Russia, etc. Wikileaks presents only half of the equation (and not even half, as operative security information remains secret). To obain any sort of balanced view of international conduct and interests, requires much more than Wikileaks has provided; nor is able to provide.

Whilst Assange is being lauded as 'Christ-like,' what is the opinion of Bradley Manning, a 21 year old, facing life imprisonment with hard labour. Is he also 'Christ-like' or a criminal? Should people in his position be held accountable for releasing top-secret material?

Should the Official Secrets Act in our country be done away with?

On the subject of whether the dealings of other countries will be aired by Wikileaks, Assange has this to say in Time Magazine:

"Yes, indeed. In fact we believe it is the most closed societies that have the most reform potential. The Chinese case is quite interesting. Aspects of the Chinese government, [the] Chinese Public Security Service, appear to be terrified of free speech, and while one might say that means something awful is happening in the country, I actually think that is a very optimistic sign, because it means that speech can still cause reform. Journalism and writing are capable of achieving change, and that is why Chinese authorities are so scared of it. Whereas in the U.S., to a large degree, and in other Western countries, the basic elements of society have been so heavily fiscalised through contractual obligations that political change doesn't seem to result in economic change. In other words, political change doesn't result in change."

After looking at all the wonderful links and wonderful information you have all provided,
I have come to the conclusion the Julian Assange is indeed a true Aussie hero.

I got it right for once. And thanks to any whistle blower that exposes things that are just plain wrong. Through truth we empower ourselves!. Great isn't it.

This is a pivotal moment in history and I'm truly excited about it.

It great to know that most of us (even just here on OLO) support freedom of expression.

Poirot,

Assange's comments are true. But hasn't this been all self-evident?

Dissidents exist in China, like imprisoned Liu Xiaobo, a current Nobel Peace Prize winner. Possibly others unknown to us have been executed. Is Wikileaks going to be a catalyst for greater free speech, quicker change? Hardly. China has muzzled Wikileaks. Change will take time, and can only occur from within.

The West. As for political change not resulting in real economic change? We are only too well aware of this.

*Most thoughtful people will not be surprised at the revelations ... hardly world-shattering.*

Well of course. Politics, like the legal system, is a bit of a
circus, where everyone knows everyone, many are indeed friends,
but they give the public what they want, bread and circuses!

We have our share of voyeurs, who seemingly want to read all about
diplomatic dirty washing, laundered in public. But then the
public are seemingly fascinated too, by the press airing Paris
Hilton's dirty washing in public, or who Warnie slept with this week.

All this keeps the punters amused and interested. So the circus
goes on

Of course there is no comparison Yabby

The trouble with free speech is it's too liberating and becomes a mere cacophany. For my money free speech has to mean something and have intention, otherwise it's just noise. The trouble with the communication revolution is that it too often amounts to the latter, so that rather than fomenting for reform, or better still revolution, it bogs everything down in impressive verbiage. The Assange revelations too run the risk of being all sensation and no action; in fact desensitsing us yet more---and modern westerners are already like petrified wood!
Withal the fuss and brooding, as long as the creature comforts (the nests) are maintained, the vast majority will resettle soon enough.
Thus we have the Yabbys of the world complacently (and rightly) accusing the self-conscious circus Hens of voyeurism etc.
It's all just a bit of juicy gossip that only succeeds in lowering the bar as to what the keepers can get away with.
Assange shall eventually grow hoarse, or else join the ranks of the mithering martyrs in pergatory.
I do hope someone can disabuse me of my cynicism :-(

Are the Assange revelations 'sensational'?!

Also, none have put forward comment about my question.

" Whilst Assange is being lauded as 'Christ-like,' what is the opinion of Bradley Manning, a 21 year old, facing life imprisonment with hard labour. Is he also 'Christ-like' or a criminal? Should people in his position be held accountable for releasing top-secret material?

Should the Official Secrets Act in our country be done away with?"

If Manning is believed criminal, where does this put Assange who actually released the information - is Assange the active agent to its release, or complicit?

Manning's mental state at the time of his passing information to Assange was extremely poor. He stated "im a source, not quite a volunteer ... and I've developed a relationship with Assange." (Weekend Australian, December 11-12, p.11). Did Assange exploit the situation?

Manning hasn't been tried yet. What emerges in the trial should be interesting.

Squeers:

So glad to read that you're a hopeful cynic. Although I would never have described you as a cynic at all (i.e. one who looks at the world with a monocle in his mind's eye). Anyway, this may not dispel your cynicism but you may find it entertaining:

http://newmatilda.com/2010/12/13/free-speech-sxy-again

Squeers and Lexi,

Looking at it from a certain point of view, Julian Assange is symbolic of a freedom fighter in the same manner as many who have gone before him. He's a certain type of individual who personifies the struggle against injustice by the common man...don't know what that means in the long term, but it's fascinating to watch the machinations.

Danielle,

The difference (so far) between the situation's of Bradley Manning and Julian Assange is that the U.S. Government has found grounds upon which to charge Manning. If he is at some point found guilty of those crimes he will be "believed to be guilty" in the eyes of the U.S. justice system.
Wikileaks has raised international government ire to such an extent due to the sheer scale and randomness of its leaked information. Consequently, there appears to be a scramble on to improvise certain laws selectively forbidding the dissemination of leaked information

Thanks Lexi,
you're right, I'm not a cynic, or I wouldn't care one way or the other (mind you, Diogenes didn't wear a monocle! Cynicism has fallen into disrepute). Now Yabby is a good instance of the fallen modern cynic, who profits and withers simultaneously. Ebenezzer Scrooge is another--since it's nearly xmas--ho ho ho.
But yes good luck to the lad. (I'm fiftly and still not silver!)
We shall see.
No time for anything more thoughtful I'm afraid, but am an avid admirer of dissent :-)

*Now Yabby is a good instance of the fallen modern cynic, who profits and withers simultaneously*

Hehe Squeers, I'm touched that you think of me so much, for clearly
I must have gotten under your skin, somewhere.

I watched part of the televised banking inquiry today and I was
highly amused.

If the punters think that their political representatives are going
to deliver them from evil, fight injustice and provide life on
a plate for them, they are in for a rude shock.

Is there really nobody in that parliament, who knows anything about
banking?

All I can say is, the circus continues.

Luckily we have private enterprise which makes things happen,
for clearly the smarts don't hang out in politics.

I am sure that by revelation of this information, Manning, in his particular position, would have broken a law ... just as if someone were to reveal confidential information from an embassy. Disclosures of such material are prohibited, bringing down known consequences. Files are marked accordingly.

Would Assange have weighed the consequences of a conviction against Manning, a US citizen, which he surely would have considered, and the need to publish the material. Rather like the good of the greater outweighing those of the few ... which western governments also invoke.

I remain ambivalent about Wikileaks. So far nothing astonishing ... However, it could be abused so easily. Some have remarked that to see the actual documents is "evidence". Similarly, documents can be forged. If such occurred, one doubts Wikileaks could pick these up, especially if included among valid papers. Wikileaks - what a great propaganda and disinformation tool for governments.

A Missing Wikileak?

flashed for a short time on Sky News:..a planned Israeli false flag nuclear attack..on 2 American cities..to be blamed on Pakistan

:..Dr Ghayur Ayub
Tickers on different news channels were running fast..at the bottom of the television screen...It was the evening before the next batch of Wikileaks..were due for publication.

I was browsing through Sky News,BBC,CNN,Al-Jazeera and Press TV. To the best of my recollection,..it was Sky News which caught my eye.

The breaking news referred to a planned Israeli nuclear attack on two American cities, which were to be linked to Pakistan...America would have had a cause to respond..*in kind and take out Pakistani nuclear sites.

I couldn’t believe my eyes!

I rewound the news to double check what I had just read.

Gordon Duff mentioned this last May……

1.Gordon Duff:..Stage Being Set For “Dirty Bomb” False Flag Nuclear...4 May 2010... attack in America to blame it on Pakistan and Iran. ...execute a false flag nuclear attack on 4-6 major cities in US,Canada and Europe. ...
socioecohistory.wordpress.com/.../gordon-duff-stage-being-set-for-“dirty-bomb”-false-flag-nuclear-detonation-in-a-us-city-times-square-bom...

1.GORDON DUFF:..IN MOTION: THE PLOT TO DESTROY THE UNITED STATES ...
11 Nov 2010 ...Plans are in motion for a “false flag” attack on America....The most likely scenario is a nuclear attack...Two bombs are....Anyway please show us the Israeli Peace Plan today! ...
www.veteranstoday.com/.../gordon-duff-in-motion-the-plot-to-destroy-the-united-states/ - Cached

1.How To Deal With The Next False Flag -Pakistani Defence Forum

How To Deal With The Next False Flag,..If Pakistan is blamed....

Israel is believed to possess two Hiroshima sized nuclear ASSETS...
When it happens,..the vast majority of Americans will find the trail left, Pakistanis, Iranians,..all as planned. ...
forum.pakistanidefence.com/index.php?showtopic=89843... - Cached



Monday,December 13,2010..7:48
Subject: A Missing Wikileak? planned Israeli false flag nuclear attack on 2 American cities to be blamed on Pakistan

LINK:
http://pakpotpourri2.wordpress.com/2010/12/13/a-missing-wikileak

Poirot:

Ben Eltham has an interesting article:

http://newmatilda.com/2010/12/13/wikileaks-democracy-101

Squeers:

I hope that you will continue to remain consistant in your postings. They are clever, and like Forrest's, thoroughly enjoyable.

Poirot,
Well put; Assange does seem in that mould, though he’s no Ghandi or Martin Luther King, but more a facilitator of dissent. I understand the US alone commits at least a few “million” matters of public to official secrecy per annum. I don’t think we’ve heard anything yet, or begun to plumb the evil machinations of our masters.
Yabby,
Squeers says he has let you get away with a few unanswered jibes of late so yes, a little pay-back (which you ought to take seriously :-)

Lexi,
Squeers asks me to say that you are very gracious, since he is not always kind. At the nonce he is reduced to working for pay (!) and is commensurately time poor, but he hopes to join in the fun again more fully anon. Squeers and I also read your eloquent posts with pleasure.

Yes it is distressing, concerning the fate of Bradley Manning, and no doubt there will be negative effects from the fallout of the information he has supplied the world via Wikileaks.

I applaud him and wish that there was some way that international pressure could be applied to the U.S. regarding his fate or treatment. America allows such barbarism as the death penalty or even execution by drone through Presidential edict if you listen to the American media.

It becomes clear that a type of lunacy exists in the American political psyche and that this now exposed reality should not be allowed to dispense it's type of military justice as we have seen in recent times at Guantanemo Bay. David Hicks and Manduh Habib were lucky enough to be Australian citizens.

Bradley Manning does not have that privilege. My point being that we should not lose site of the fact that the problem is, that it is not clear in this case who the bad guys are?.

U.S. attitudes and philosophy is the problem here and their Empirical view of their place in the world, has been and is being more part of the problem than the solution.

They would most probably consider it their sovereign right to execute Bradley Manning or even Julian Assange if they can get their hands of him by applying one of their jackass laws.

Should the rest of us just stand idol by and let them do what they will, cover their tracks and allow them to sway the public opinion of their short attention spanned population via their controlled media. I don't think we should.

All power to the whistle blower.

Mitchell,

I like your term "facilitator of dissent".
Assange has referred to himself as "a lightning rod" for his cause....which seems to be the case as we witness Western governments falling over themselves to spin accusations that he "may" be acting outside the law. What he does have in common with men like Gandhi and Martin Luther King is that he personifies a movement or philosophy which promotes freedom, openness and fairness.
It's interesting that those who seek to dismiss the released information as so much gossipy twaddle, seem, at the same time, outraged by the prospect that future revelations may disrupt "business as usual" in the world of diplomatic spin-doctoring. It is the fact that the documents are not selectively vetted for sensation value that lends Wikileaks its moral integrity.
(A wave to Squeers)

Hello Poirot:

Here's the second article by Ben Eltham that you may find interesting:

http://newmatilda.com/2010/12/14/whos-afraid-wikileaks

Mitchell:

Thanks, and right back at you! Give Squeers a salute from me, he's one of a kind that's for sure, and you sound like a great friend, I'll drink a toast to you both on Christmas Eve. Cheers!

oug

quote from the site you provided:

"By: Dr Ghayur Ayub  

Tickers on different news channels were running fast at the bottom of the television screen. It was the evening before the next batch of Wikileaks were due for publication. I made sure to buy The Guardian – one of five newspapers publishing the documents. With remote control in hand, I was browsing through Sky News, BBC, CNN, Al-Jazeera and Press TV. To the best of my recollection, it was Sky News which caught my eye. The breaking news referred to a planned Israeli nuclear attack on two American cities, which were to be linked to Pakistan. America would have had a cause to respond in kind and take out Pakistani nuclear sites.

Thinking details would be published in the Guardian newspaper the following day I did not record it. ... To my surprise, the “ticker news” could not be seen anywhere. ... I opened the Wikileaks’ website and browsed through it carefully; no luck again. Then, I Googled relevant questions pertaining to Israel; still no luck! ... The news had just disappeared from cyberspace. ... So what happened to the news?

The only explanation I can think of is that the news item must have leaked out by mistake and then swiftly been retracted. ... "

This is indeed very frightening ... indeed terrifying. And exactly what I mean. Anyone can state anything and people will believe them. Such 'ticker news' could not be erased leaving no trace. Recording programs is 'commonplace' by tv viewers. The Guardian would certainly have run with it ... This is a prime example of disinformation. Now people can say " xyz was pulled".

cont ...

cont ...

Given the highly sophisticated detection methods used by the US (indeed western countries), it would be impossible to launch a 'false flag' attack. Presumably the launch would be by sea or air. Every craft, worldwide, is identifiable; and especially so those very distinctive ones capable of carrying nuclear weapons.

'False flag' attacks may have been possible in the 19th century, early 20th century. But not since then. The second part of the 20th century had Jayne's ... now there is the most sensitive of methods of detection of any and all vessels/crafts within striking distance (and beyond) of inter/national waters/air space.

This sort of disinformation as cited by oug plays to the most naive ... and also those anti-Israel.

OLO writers mention the US and its machinations, why not British machinations. The British are exceptional where it comes to 'taking out' those deemed extremely dangerous to security.

I doubt that Manning will face execution. Life with hard labour - yes. Assange? Possibly some deranged 'patriot', not associated with US affairs, will eventually murder him. Hopefully not ...

What does emerge is that the public will need to be better informed on a wide range of matters and technologies than it is now.

Lexi,

Thank you for those links...another good read.

Just learned that Australia's main media players have come out in major support of Julian Assange and Wikileaks. The country's newspaper editors and television directors have written an open letter to Julia Gillard criticising U.S and Australian government reaction.

http://www.walkleys.com/news/1076/

Poirot:

Thank You for the Walkley link. Powerful stuff! If that doesn't get to the PM, then nothing will! Hopefully with our finest media getting behind Assange should surely send a message to the pollies.

Lexi I must say about Ben Eltham's 2nd article, he makes an aspersion about Julian Assange and details the accusations made against him by a Swedish woman.

I understood that part of the problem here is that Assange himself or his legal team has no detail supplied by the Swedish prosecutors as to what the detail of the accusations levelled against him actually are.

How is it that Ben Eltham seems to know, and even continues on with a summary that ends in "no still means no". Who is Ben Eltham again?.

Is it healthy for the media commentariate to be framing opinions on the unproven before the legal aspects of this case have been barely commenced?.

Poirot

" It is the fact that the documents are not selectively vetted for sensation value that lends Wikileaks its moral integrity."

An Iranian man who escaped from his country and cited on a Wikileaks document, now fears for his family who remain in Iran.

thinker 2 opines the idea that Manning could be executed.

Professional journalists have always protected their sources, even to the point of going to gaol. Wikileaks does not.

Doesn't this raise concerns among OLO writers ... is surely does with me.

Are we now looking at new journalism in which individuals are to be 'thrown to the wolves' in the 'ethos' of free speech.

Among the journalists who signed the petition for Assange, Pethenberry previously had also raised similar concerns ... Exactly how was the petition worded.

Does anyone really believe that a personal opinion about another country's leader such as US/Australia is going to change our policy vis a vis the US and Australia.

For any real value from Wikileaks documents they need a expert political analyst who can set them in context, not Joe Bloe on the street.

“Professional journalists have always protected their sources, even to the point of going to gaol. Wikileaks does not.”

Well there has to be a bit of “she’ll be right mate” in WikiLeaks. Umm... he is in jail even if it was because another kind of protection failed.

“Doesn't this raise concerns among OLO writers ... is surely does with me.”

Nup, I’m all good.

“Does anyone really believe that a personal opinion about another country's leader such as US/Australia is going to change our policy vis a vis the US and Australia.”

We can only hope.

“Are we now looking at new journalism in which individuals are to be 'thrown to the wolves' in the 'ethos' of free speech.”

Isn’t it better than whole war loads of people being thrown to the wolves in the ethos of unchained politicians?

“For any real value from Wikileaks documents they need a expert political analyst who can set them in context, not Joe Bloe on the street.”

Jeez you’re a spoiler Danni

Is that actually correct Danielle. Did Wikileaks reveal it's source to the Americans?.

Is so, I was not aware of that, and if it were true, then I agree that would be cause for concern.

Danielle,

Wikileaks did not reveal its source in Manning's case - Wikileaks takes great pains not to reveal their sources in general.

Manning's downfall appears to have come from his own bragging. He confided to an online acquaintance and ex-hacker(Lamo) of his activities - and also to a close friend.

This quote from the following article: "Lamo decided to turn in Manning after the soldier told him he leaked a quarter-million classified embassy cables."

http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2010/07/manning-charges/

Poirot,

It wouldn't have taken long to detect Manning as the source, given the volume and specifics of the material.

How is Wikileaks to prevent this sort of thing? Journalists have used leaks, but given the range and volume of the former ...

As stated before, I believe there are inherent risks involved in Wikileaks, and also the potential for abuse and disinformation.

And ... a great deal of the material is in different languages ... Given that Wikileaks are unable to translate these and are relying (hoping) upon such as those who contribute to Wiki, this is a potential minefield.

I believe in freedom of the press ... with the ethics we have seen in much professional journalism.

How transparent is Wikileaks iteself.

I thought you could buy the press? Buy different media outlets and newspapers etc.

I also thought that all media is set up somewhere solid, like they are all established in whatever country under whatever countries laws that they abide by or feel responsible for whoever their neighbours are.

WikiLeaks has no home. What do we want from it and which laws or culture do we want it to represent or should what we want matter?

I kinda assumed the point was that they are rogue.

As grownups can we decide ourselves what the information means or do we need someone telling us?

Yes I realize that is an awesome question coming from me who is always asking what things mean. But at least I can ask people myself without it being presented it in a way where I am being told what it should mean. That is stuff I often forget to question.

What ethics should they use when publishing the unethical?

Seems to me they are different questions Danielle and it appears the Wikileaks leaked claim, stands refuted.

As for the other questions you raise they are perhaps questions for another post.

Your last question was a good one, Jewely.

Danielle,

There are inherent risks involved in just about everything...and there's plenty of abuse and disinformation practiced by governments and corporations all over the world on a daily basis.....Whadayaknow! - Wikileaks is a tool that can expose it!

Senior U.S. political analyst, Fareed Zakaria had this to say at the end of his article in the latest Time Magazine:
"If Private Bradley Manning had not gone to Wikileaks, he would have found some other outlet to disseminate the data. Our anger at Wikileaks should not obscure the fact that it is Washington's absurd data-sharing policy that made this possible. That's the scandal here that needs fixing."

Should a government wish to distribute misinformation about itself, or indeed fabricate another's, Wikileaks would be the way to go. Undoubtedly, someone somewhere has already deduced this.

True, this could be attempted at the domestic level, but local journalists would have some idea as to whether the information were likely, if not, undertake further investigation.

What does Wikileaks have in place to ascertain the accuracy, or not, of its information.

It appears to me that many will accept any, and all, information Wikileaks makes public.

Wikileaks' blow for free speech may well be more apparent than real.

I am well aware of the various pressures and laws put on the media. Nothing of portent can be taken for granted.

A few ago, two US journalists were detailed to look into environmental polution; their
findings were damning. However, their findings pointed to their paper's leading advertiser. Financial considerations determined that the story was pulled.

There are many influences upon the press. None should take the media at face value.

The risk lies now in accepting information from Wikileaks without question ... (Indeed, up 'til now, much of it, is just someone else's opinion ... or self-evident.)

The religious belief in Assange (christ-like) and the hysteria surrounding Wikileaks, however, seems dangerous.

Surely people are not going to sacrifice their power to exercise reason, to evaluate and to question facts, on this altar. Unfortunately, it seems so.

“ Surely people are not going to sacrifice their power to exercise reason, to evaluate and to question facts, on this altar. Unfortunately, it seems so.”

No way… I see anything I ask yous guys first if I should question or exercise. Then I go to other sites and pretend they are all my own ideas. I could well be a politician.

We have more stuff to question now though. The law is certainly in question everywhere.

I’m not sure who pinned Julian to the cross first, even if it was meant in a good way. Well, good for others.

Danielle,

You said, "Surely people are not going to sacrifice their power to exercise reason and to question facts."

I put it to you that much of the information fed to the general population in the present state of affairs is bunkum - and, therefore, our ability to exercise our judgment in any constructive way has already been compromised.
Wikileaks provides access to verbatim dialogue - not some politically sanitised version thereof...how is that sacrificing our power to exercise reason and to question facts?

Poirot

"Wikileaks provides access to verbatim dialogue - not some politically sanitised version thereof...how is that sacrificing our power to exercise reason and to question facts?"

Unless, of course, verbatim dialogue is also challenged and not accepted as necessarily the true situation. Perspectives and beliefs of politicians has proven wrong in the past. A thoughful person should verify from other sources those things which are significant to them. Also, what a politician states on one particular day, may change dramatically the next ... context is always important.

And surely ... non blindly accept sanitised versions only ...

Wikileaks received considerable donations from large companies. Which ones? Does this protect these companies from scrutiny and disclosure, or provide some other pay off? Does Wikileaks have regulations as to how much in donation/funding some interest can provide. Is there transparency. Large monies always muddy the waters.

Poirot, you are obviously an intelligent person, who values integrity and openness. I do too.

I feel, however, very uncomfortable that people are seeing Wikileaks as a font of truth.
To state a cliche "when something seems too good to be true, it generally is." Wikileaks, by its nature is open to abuse/misinformation. Sources who provide the leaks can not be guaranteed protection. Internationally, we can only get a particular side of an issue ... without full context, and being a snapshot in time.

cont ...

cont ...

Now, of course, parties will not provide open/frank discussion that can be tabled. Much discussion will be "off the record." I remember the latter only too well. Do embassies and related government organisations still have 'scramblers.' I imagine they do, and very high tech at that.

Obviously, people will and, indeed, should make up their own minds as to the value of Wikileaks. As stated in a prior post, I suspect each group will see Wikileaks as confirming the relative position they hold.

At present we have not been privy to anything astounding. Something very astounding, indeed a cause for disbelief, would have to be released to totter a government, indeed make a government vear in a radically different direction. Australian government seems to be a changing of caps.

Various parties have shown public outrage. This would be the expected policy in such circumstances, would it not.

I will not bore OLO on this particular topic any more.

Is Julian Assange, a true Aussie hero? of course he is.......these world Governments are playing with peoples lives......yes yours!

Here are some interesting links.

http://tinyurl.com/25wb4lg

http://tinyurl.com/27vkp9t

http://tinyurl.com/2ansjer

http://tinyurl.com/2da2qkz

Well....they did give us the internet.........yes they did.

Now........Can someone tell me whats the difference between what Hitler did and what we are seeing now?

Dam religion to hell. 2000/6000 years of it and still killing.

The silence of the lambs.

Please tell me when they stop screaming.

BLUE

Thanks for the links Deep Blue; they speak for themselves don't they.
And Poirot couldn't agree more with your synopsis that Wikileaks are verbatim dialogue.

The closest you can get to the truth is watching what actually happened and hearing the reaction of the participants real time as it really happened as per video leaks etc.
You cant get any closer to the truth then actually being there yourself via a Wikileak.

And Danielle I hate to be judgemental but I really think that your arguments for the most part have been the closest thing to pure conjecture in this entire post.

The verbatim dialogue described by Poirot reveals the facts of the moment, your propositions that these displays of whistle blower material have been somehow doctored (if thats what your now suggesting), I think is just plain absurd even diversionary.

Thinker 2

"Thanks for the links Deep Blue; they speak for themselves don't they."

The mixed opinions of the man are as understandable as to the amount of corruption in todays world, and I'll bet.....because for its sticky situation concerning the war..etc....Nothing will happen in relation to the law. If freedom of speech is suppressed.....that will conclude that Democracy is really just an under-cover Communist smoke-screen. If humans keep heading down the path of greed.......then the word humanity will be a word that has no meaning. This$$$$$$$$$$$$now means more than human life........and its getting to the point that were willing to sacrifice the planets life supports systems for it as well.

Which ever way the world see's this guy.......he has by all realities.......put balance the back in its fair place.......before the human greedy.....and is still out of control. WALL STREET! Eg.

Not to dope in.....could have worse repercussion than maybe any of us can understand.

I smell waaaaar 3.0

Just a thought.

BLUE

I had not intended to post further comments here, however ...

What is of concern are those 'discerning' David Hicks as a hero ,,,

Hicks tried to get into the Australian army - was rejected on psychological grounds; he then went to fight in the Balkans; was in Afghanistan; finally imprisoned, rightly or wrongly (many have been not only imprisoned, but executed when innocent). At what stage does this imbue him with hero status? If anyone should be called a hero, it was his father who fought so hard for him.

Apparent is David Hicks' interest in the artifacts of war. If he had not been rejected by the Australian army, Hicks would surely have been a veteran of Iraq and currently fighting in Afghanistan.

As there is so much debate about Hicks, this is a case where the public should be informed as to the results of the psychological test he undertook for the Army. However, those who applaud Wikileaks, will be the same who deny public access to Hicks' records.
Am I not right.

I did not agree with the war in Iraq, and I believe that the issue of Bin Laden could have been resolved through diplomatic channels.

A politican stated that the war in Afghanistan was 'frightening'. Indeed, any sensible person would see any conflict anywhere as 'frightening'. As for images of war, these are always bloody and terrible, life is lost. No images can present the entire horror ... the horror assailing all senses. What did people expect?

True, Blue at the very least we are probably witnessing a pivotal moment in modern history.
Could go either way.

I heard a guy on talkback say today, that if the U.S. get their hands on Assange that for him, it will be the straw that breaks the camel's back in terms of his faith in the system and belief in democracy and particularly the U.S leadership.

You never know Blue, the U.S. itself might be a better place, after all the dust settles, a place more worthy of our admiration. One can only dream. Assange it seems and whistle blowers the world over do dream the big dreams. Good on them because it's obvious that it is time that someone did, Just so the rest of us can sleep easy at night.

Danielle it is true I agree that the facts and David Hicks are not clear.
But I also mentioned the forgotten man Mandouh Habib. An Australian citizen who went on a business trip and ended up in Guantanemo Bay was presumably treated poorly even tortured whilst incarcerated and arrived back in Australia eventually exonerated of any wrongdoing.

This same M.Habib. has attempted to get compensation himself for the crimes committed against him through the Australian legal system and so far has not had any success.

What your opinion on his position?.

And are you proposing that it is better that we view embedded journalism about war,
rather than witness verbatim realtime footage/dialogue for ourselves in order that we see things
as they actually are?.

Thinker 2

"You never know Blue, the U.S. itself might be a better place, after all the dust settles, a place more worthy of our admiration.

Well I will always say "a good dose of balance can sometimes bring the prospective back to its glory days.

Dont think I hate the US or anything.......but just of late.....they have dropped the ball more than once this decade and I do question some of their motives.

BLUE

Thinker,

You wish to see real footage of war. OK. As I stated, these images do not present the whole horror. Many servicemen/women arrive home traumatized by what they have seen and experienced... and the message conveyed by some of the public is that they are murderers.

I believe that M. Habib should be compensated.

While our democratic system of law is perhaps not the best system, it remains the best system there is; but our laws do not necessarily mean 'justice'. In the past, under our system of law, innocent people have been executed.

I think many understimate the good will of the US. Yes, the ball has been dropped more than once this decade. However many outsiders may criticise its actions, there are many, many more within the US who criticise themselves more robustly. Problems arise when new, previously unchallenged issues are confronted. Experience brings about change.

Perhaps not enough people in the US avail themselves of the ballot box. Many people see compulsory voting an anethama. A Britisher once admitted the he and his family never voted, "what's the point ... won't change anything" then complained bitterly about certain conditions. How many families are like this. At least with compulsory voting, each person - even if they chose to vote informally - has to take momentary pause to consider the outcome.

Thinker 2,

I meant to reply to your question more fully. Yes, I do believe that verbatim realtime footage/dialogue is better than embedded journalism.

We have all witnessed pictures that have been cropped, or 'changed' in some way - presenting a false idea of the situation. Also, we have witnessed pictures dragged from the 'morgue' and presented as current; ... even pictures which were taken elsewhere than at the stated site...

winstone smith...a white hat hacker
on alex jones show..[15th dec wed]..arround the 84 minute mark
http://www.infowars.com/audio/201012/201012.html

anyhow..the new plan is
to get people..to read the wikidocuments
and spam the info arround

he rebuts..the denial of service attacks..completly*

[thats what govt wants...not us]

anyhow activism..is doing the hard yards
reading 250,000 leaks..picking the best out of them
then publicizing...them*

http://www.youtube.com/user/TheAlexJonesChannel#p/search/1/7SN8JNAZSQo

sure we need..'hero's'...lol
but mostly..we need the workers

if they arnt...inspiring the workers...why have leaders?

its evolution...not..r-evolution
all we are saying is war is over...[if we want to]
give peace a chance...[change we can really believe in]

there is also the faulse..'prince of peace'...
spoken of in predictions..

i note wiki has gone quiet
since julians...'liberation'..

this helps me see credence in..the following quote

He is part of or running a limited hangout or honeypot.

A limited hangout, or partial hangout, is a public relations or propaganda technique that involves the release of previously hidden information in order to prevent a greater exposure of more important details.

It takes the form of deception, misdirection, or coverup often associated with intelligence agencies involving a release or “mea culpa” type of confession of only part of a set of previously hidden sensitive information, that establishes credibility for the one releasing the information who by the very act of confession appears to be “coming clean”

and acting with integrity; but in actuality, by withholding key facts, is protecting a deeper operation and those who could be exposed if the whole truth came out.

In effect, if an array of offenses or misdeeds is suspected, this confession admits to a lesser offense while covering up the greater ones....

like the fact the actual leaker..whistler..
is...still in soletary...is forgotten]

A limited hangout typically is a response to lower the pressure felt from inquisitive investigators pursuing clues that threaten to expose everything, and the disclosure is often combined with red herrings or propaganda elements that lead to false trails, distractions, or ideological disinformation;

thus allowing covert or criminal elements to continue in their improper activities. On limited hangouts, Victor Marchetti writes:

“A ‘limited hangout’ is spy jargon for a favorite and frequently used gimmick of the clandestine professionals.

When their veil of secrecy is shredded and they can no longer rely on a phony cover story to misinform the public, they resort to admitting – sometimes even volunteering – some of the truth while still managing to withhold the key and damaging facts in the case.

The public, however, is usually so intrigued by the new information that it never thinks to pursue the matter further.”

Good old Julian! It sounds like he pissed off a few feminists,
by sleeping with them and then moving on sexually, thus the rape
charges.

No doubt all the new publicity and fame will keep his bed full,
with admiring devotees.

Thus the Wickileaks "Days of our Lives" continues.

One can only be amused

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/in-depth/wikileaks/assange-anger-at-smear-campaign-after-leaked-police-files-published-in-the-guardian/story-fn775xjq-1225973443379
“Bjorn Hurtig, Assange's Swedish lawyer, said he would lodge a formal complaint to the authorities and ask them to investigate how such sensitive police material leaked into the public domain.”

I’m trying to work out how I feel about that... isn’t the complaint exactly the opposite of what WikiLeaks is supporting?

“They point out that the offence of "minor rape", with which he may be charged, has no equivalent in British law because the accused can be guilty even if a woman consents.”

That bit just out right horrifies me.

Now I am going to go watch Alex.

Should the Official Secrets Act in our country be done away with?

Danielle, no is my response to your query for validated safety reasons of all Australians.

a secret deal struck between WikiLeaks’..Assange..with Israeli officials,..which ensured that all such documents were ‘removed’ before the rest were made public,” wrote Gordon Duff, an editor of the anti-war website Veterans Today.

“It sticks out like a sore thumb that WikiLeaks is obviously concocted by an intelligence agency. It’s a ham-handed action by Israel to do its public relations,” Duff told Ha’aretz newspaper.

Some allege that the secret deal between WikiLeaks’ founder Julian Assange and Israel’s spy agency, Mossad, was struck in Geneva.

Under the agreement, Assange assured Tel Aviv that he would not publish any documents that “may harm Israeli interests,” wrote Al Haqiqa, an Arabic language webzine – a magazine published on internet.

An anonymous blogger on IndyMedia writes that Israel knew about cables on its wars on Lebanon and Gaza.

“The Israel government, it seems, had somehow found out or expected that the documents to be leaked contained a large number of documents about the Israeli attacks on Lebanon and Gaza in 2006 and 2008-9 respectively,” the unknown blogger wrote.

“These documents, which are said to have originated mainly from the American embassies in Tel Aviv and Beirut, were removed and possibly destroyed by Assange, who is the only person who knows the password that can open these documents,” the sources added.

Israel has benefited from the alleged US documents, released by WikiLeaks, Turkey’s Interior Minister Besir Atalay said earlier this month.

“It seems to us that the country which … is not mentioned much, especially in the Middle East, or which this development seems to favor is Israel,” Atalay said.

interesting development..?

Assange Rape Accuser..Flees to West Bank,
Claims to be a CIA Agent..HUH?
http://republicbroadcasting.org/?p=12484

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/12/09/anna-ardin-julian-assange_n_794285.html

Ardin, who also goes by the name Bernardin, has moved to the West Bank in the Palestinian Territories, as part of a Christian outreach group, aimed at bringing reconciliation between Palestinians and Israelis.

She has moved to the small town of Yanoun, which sits close to Israel's security/sequestration wall.

Yanoun is constantly besieged by fundamentalist Jewish settlers, and international groups have frequently stationed themselves there.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7TheJPboU4c

Attempts by Crikey to contact Ardin by phone, fax, email and twitter were unsuccessful today.

more?
obtaining and leveraging classified U.S. government information
in the service of Israel..is common practice at AIPAC

http://republicbroadcasting.org/?p=12387

Publicly, the FBI is silent, choosing ignominy and survival. Highly placed sources indicate the AIPAC spy scandal, now shoved under the rug, was 10 times the extent of the infamous Pollard affair. We are told there is solid evidence of widespread espionage extending to the highest levels of, not only Defense but the Executive branch as well.

http://mycatbirdseat.com/2010/12/former-top-aipac-official-states-that-passing-us-secrets-to-israel-is-routine-for-the-israel-lobby/

Arrest warrants were being prepared for more than several Bush officials and several currently serving President Obama. With two presidents being blackmailed because their administrations had been totally penetrated by spies, the FBI was called off.

Grant Smith discusses the Rosen v. AIPAC lawsuit that threatens to bring Washington to its knees with an espionage scandal of unimagined proportions:

http://www.intifada-palestine.com/2010/12/wikileaks-whose-agenda/
http://poorrichards-blog.blogspot.com/2010/12/pentagon-bars-own-journalists-from.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o3we8Sg9oOs
http://www.bushstole04.com/fakewar/HOLBROOKE_ZIONIST.HTM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XrnmbUDeHus

http://www.veteranstoday.com/2010/12/17/franklin-lamb-australia-rejects-israeli-ordered-media-censorship-2/

if your not asking what really happend
http://www.jewwatch.com/

http://news.google.com/news?client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&hl=en&tab=wn&ned=us&q=false++flag+operations&btnG=Search

you cant know whats really happening
http://whatreallyhappened.com/

Thats funny Yabby

have you read these liki likies?

Need another activation email?
when the emawil id confirmation..arrives [3 days later]
and log in fails...*

but also
Digital Millennium Copyright Act
http://forum.prisonplanet.com/index.php?topic=186951.0

but also

Activism

This forum
http://forum.prisonplanet.com/index.php

..is to educate and document non-violent non-cooperation activities against oppression..and tyranny as MLK,/Jr. and..Gandhi did.

Do not ever,
even as innuendo, promote violence on this forum.

Report others who do.

Anyone promoting violence rather than engaging in educational and documentarian style discussions will be banned and posts removed
(at the least).

The promoting of violence is a CoIntelPro tactic to stop lawful discourse against corrupt government tyranny.

Research the Church Commission report and you will find that 25% of the KKK during the 1960's were FBI and FBI assets. They were the ones in the cars and engaged in the conversations promoting the horrendous violence..that occured throught this great land.

They also were promoting violence..within the constitutional black nationalist movements...*in order to shut that down..(see CoIntelPro: War on Black America).

Do not let the new CoIntelPro
do the same thing

with
the truth movement.

is it just me

but much of the media
uses.."weak/ie*..leaks",...
when read about/by media newsreaders

its just a little subliminal key note
for our titilations...thanks be of the brain trust

you know..*them think-tanks...ideas
spin/pr people...sucking the cashcows teat

trying to get money..ideas
half as good as when their predesessors..
came up with tthe commity concieves a better horse
as good as a camel...[ok visa versa]

but that enrich..the board
[bored]..boring..broad-mem,bers..
with their per-form-trance,..bonus

[for..doing it by the book..elite to peon..
with a lawyer..and a...loan...and fiat credit..and a demon-autorcrative..demon errative..patriarchal..paternalists..work-iphiles

via biased peon masters..
upon...the backs of their workers
living trhe life beyond fair wage/for fair work

http://www.smh.com.au/technology/technology-news/confidential-swedish-police-report-details-claims-against-assange-20101220-192ih.html

Well there we have it. All the sordid details of Julian's
sexual habits. The voyeurs will love this stuff.

oug

Just checked out verteranstoday and also another article ...

http://www.veteranstoday.com/2010/12/18/gordon-duff-gov-jesse-ventura-proves-911-cover-up-will-americas-government-fall/

Quote: "The strongest and most vocal opponent of a new 9/11 investigation is Julian Assange of Wikleaks. If any individual outside the US government were to be named as most complicit in a 9/11 cover-up, it would be Julian Assange."

This is truly frightening ... Frightening that anyone could be so gullible, and firstly, with such hatred toward the US, as to want to believe it; and secondly, believe that Julian Assange is implicated.

The two articles discredits veteranstoday ... as to the other sites ... the samo samo ...

After giving a close reading of these articles, I would have thought anyone with a modicum of conscience would question any 'information' such as verteranstoday provide. Also, the writers on this site ... !?

Stormfront quotes them.

oug, I suprised that a person who contends they are on the side of god and the angels would delve into such vicious material, spewing such malevolent hatred, and misinformation. The whole tenre of the articles leaves no doubt as to their agenda.

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politics/conspiracy-fears-at-fever-pitch-20101220-1930r.html

Sounds like the psychiatrists understand why UOG, Arjay and others,
need conspiracy theories in their lives, to be content.

Yabby,

Thank you for the link ...

What is appalling is that these conspiracy theories are so very, very nasty.

And ... the collective dottiness of willing adherents in finding each other.

damiellle i make no claim to be on the same side as the angles..just dont like omnipotants claiming to be serving the people
who are in reality serving their own darkside

the old saying of there being no smoke/fire etc
julians hasnt touched the topics

and mossad being what mossad is..
that alone sounds suss

a jew..insured a derilict building with a jewis firm
a building..needing two billion asbestosis removal..
as part of its contracted terms[over 100 years

this jewish entripeneur..then insures multiple insurances
gets two payouts...specificlly via 'terror'..[read your own insurance cobntract..these acts of war are explicitly removed..from our insurances]

then for the first time ever...3 builsdings[of steel fraME CONSTRUCTION..FALL DOWN]..despuite bigger airplaines hitting other buildings..NOPT FALLING DOWN...as well as buildings with hotter fires..also not burning down

but because the primary insurer..paid out[twice]..no other investigation is enered into..never the less govt does one..specificly excluduing legal spects..[see architects..911]

there is nmo mention of the billions of gold bullion..nor of the enron case..[building 7 held the evidebnce]..no evidence..no case

george busches brother did the security..for the building...the steel was sent away immediatly for resmelting..this case stinks to high heaven..[israels conection is extensive]

even the buildings owner said pull it
hence the bbc reported it falling..20 minutes before actually falling

then the way they treated the workers..now dying
anybody thinking this ioncidence dosnt involve the highest of govt/civic abuses..

hasnt botherd looking into half the facts

you believe what you wish
i know what i know

and im fine with what they done[who am i to judge those thinking them,..selves gods incarnate]

it was that..
or have a global stockmarket meltdown 4 years earlier

the world is bankrupt
as well as morally corrupt

any expecting a fair deal..is decieved..or decieving

oug

"the old saying of there being no smoke/fire etc julians hasnt touched the topics ...

...you believe what you wish i know what i know ..."

And you know all this? How?

You have an aweful attitude towards humanity - is this christianity at its best?

Having thought you were a devout christian (albeit with some strange ideas), you have single handedly disabused me of this belief. Some people would see you as a 'hate monger'... Is this new age christianity?

What is your problem with Jews?

In the middle ages, "devout christians" blamed the Jews for the Black Death. Now they are blamed for ... it seems, just about everything.

And I am not going to enter into any debate about this.

We have been warned.

"..you believe what you wish i know what i know ..."

danielle...im not xtian
i follow many prophetts

had to hear many messengers..to get comprehention of god
yet there are many paths to good

my problem..with jews..is there is no such thing
semite...means from the middle east
there is no such thing as a blue eyed..'semite'

recall the muder by the natzies..who muderd..many..homo-sexual..homeless..jipsies...as well as northern jews

the numbers reveal in beuchanwal work camp
one third were...'jew'..meaning two thirds wernt
but these never rate any mention...all the while..completly forgotten..is the muder of 25 million xtians...by the blochovic jews

some play the media game well
[which is not supprising..as they are run
only by those with certain sympathies]...

and im fine with that
this talking..is about julian
and he isnt telkling all...and the bit
he is leaving out..is the best bit...the only bit that will reveal the truth...but he is too clever to bring in mossads cleanup squad

so is revealed as a deciever..as much as a hero
i note while were being titilated..by julian...the palistinian murder/genocide...

or the failed peace talks...
dont make the news

co-incidence..i think not
someone..is shaping...'other'..talking points

HA..HA..TOLD YA SO
http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=11413

Work on the cache started immediately after Wikileaks' previous release of Pentagon and military papers.

Experts from the CIA, NSA and the State Department toiled for weeks on end to put together a credible-looking dump of cablegrams that would dupe journalists..and analysts into believing that it was random.

Only low-level, mostly unclassified material went in.

But this ocean of digitized paperwork contained morsels that were intended to send targeted messages to America's allies and foes alike:

Message to Iran: You are completely isolated.
Even the Arabs want your nuclear facilities bombed.

Message to Israel: We are far tougher..on Iran than we let on.
Please let us do our job..and don't meddle.

Message to China:..North-Korean unification is seriously contemplated and..definitely on the table.

Message to North-Korea: Even China,
your staunchest supporter,..has turned against you.

Message to Turkey: We know about your double-dealing.

In the heat of exchanges with al-Qaida and Iran,..don't forget your primary allegiance to the military alliance with the West and especially with us,..the USA.

Message to Greece: We know about your attempts at fomenting inter-ethnic tension in Macedonia. We want the name dispute with Macedonia resolved, to allow NATO and EU enlargement to the western Balkans to proceed.

Message to Russia: We have incriminating evidence against the highest echelons of your leadership and we will not hesitate to release it should you continue to obstruct our policies.

Wikileaks have been duped and sacrificed
on the altar of high-stakes geopolitics.

Its days are numbered.

I don't envy Assange as well. He allowed his inflated, messianic, and self-important ego to get the best of him and now he is a hunted man. The State Department have pulled off a brilliant maneuver.

Hats off to their creativity and panache.

http://www.infowars.com/audio/201012/201012.html
listen arround the 100 minute mark
[december 17]

jesie ventura talks about building 7 etc
its on his 'show'...about the strange goings on re 911

previously they discussed other things
[like fox tv recording the satadium collapse on their cameras
[at 5 am in the morning..on two different cameras]

alsdo the wikileaks phenomina
[to be used...[like 911]..to clamp down on web freedoms]
passing retrospective laws..and do things

every bit as bad as hitler..did via the excuse of crystal nacht...[those who dont study histry are doomed to repeat it]

be your own hero