There is an incident which occurred in the good ol USA recently, which is very telling of a certain political perspective and value system.

Imagine this. Pastor Fred Phelps (godhatesfags.com) performs a public prayer where he prays that the leader of the Gay Rights movement dies.

Now.. before you view the link below.. please take a moment for an HONEST opinion about such a thing. If someone prays for the death of another who differs politically (or religiously) is this 'hateful prejudice and loathing' ?

Now.. let's imagine a public servant sends an email out declaring that his praying for the death of a high profile political opponent.

What is your honest opinion (specially you lefties) of what should happen to such a public servant)

Now.. have a peek at this and see who did the praying and how it worked out.

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/chris-christie-recounts-confrontation-with-teachers-union-prez/

Does anyone see any hypocrisy in this? if so..with whom? and why?

This lefty will give you his honest heart felt answer Boazy.
That preacher should be imprisoned and all his followers.
A public servant who did as you say, I suspect you will name one, should be sacked.
And I want you to focus on these spiteful Christians, look closely at them.
And know I see a little bit off you in them.
Honest not intended to hurt you just your American style branding of my side of politics, if I am wrong in seeing Christianity being used as a weapon by you then forgive me.
And Boazy I remember saying and still believe a Christian will go out of his/her way to help I however never could see you doing that for a lefty.

It's all about context, really.

(By the way, did I mention that I don't watch YouTube, Boaz. I always look for the written word - it's so much... tidier, I find)

Here's Joe Coppola's sin, in full, the final paragraph of a memo to fellow Teachers Union members.

"'Dear Lord … this year you have taken away my favorite actor, Patrick Swayze, my favorite actress, Farrah Fawcett, my favorite singer, Michael Jackson, and my favorite salesman, Billy Mays. … I just wanted to let you know that Chris Christie is my favorite governor.' The memo, sent to locals in the county earlier this week and obtained by The Record on Thursday, is signed by New Jersey Education Association field representatives, including Joe Coppola, president of the Bergen County Education Association. Coppola said the “prayer” was a joke and was never meant to be made public. 'Obviously, it’s inappropriate,” he said. “I would never wish anybody dead.'"

Extremely poor taste, I agree.

>>Now.. let's imagine a public servant sends an email out declaring that his praying for the death of a high profile political opponent. What is your honest opinion (specially you lefties) of what should happen to such a public servant<<

He should be thrashed within an inch of his life, and his broken body left in the desert for the vultures to pick clean.

Or, alternatively, he should be reprimanded, and given some counselling on his thoroughly tacky sense of humour. Let's face it, it had to be humour - the fact that he claimed Farrah Fawcett was his favourite actress was a dead giveaway.

Interesting responses there :)

Glad you managed to track down the actual email Pericles.

But truly...the vid is worth looking at.. it gives some interesting insights to the 'progressive' mind.

Speaking of your hunger for the written word...and esPECially your strange sentence about the birds picking clean. (I can't resist this, so you will just have to endure it ....)

http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/hadith/bukhari/082.sbt.html#008.082.796

I'll at least resist the temptation to cut/paste it in full here. But please read the last bit of that document from 'The Prophet ordered...

Belly old mate.. I'm thinking you missed the point of the post...

PERICLES.. more to you. The reason I raised this thread is much broader than the specific incident mentioned. It goes back to the history of the 'progressive/neo-con' struggle and I have a question for you..(I'll probably do a new discussion about this anyway but I'm interested in your answer early)

"WHAT" is... a...'NEO'-CON ?

How did they start and when?

When you know the background, you will probably tweak to how this current discussion fits in.

If you have access for Fox news, they have an interesting mini series/doco on the matter running.

What makes it so, Boaz?

>>But truly...the vid is worth looking at<<

Not going to happen. Anyhow, your opinion of what makes it interesting might not be at all like mine. But if you found me a transcript, that could be of interest to me.

And thank you for the carefully chosen extract from an Islamic text. Whose content was equally carefully chosen, I notice...

"It is said that al-Bukhari collected over 300,000 hadith and included only 2,602 traditions in his Sahih."

There's nothing you like better to make your point, is there Boaz, than a single carefully selected quote, taken from a small selection of carefully selected quotes, from another slightly larger selection of carefully chosen quotes, which themselves constitute less than 1% of a possible 300,000.

Colour me unconvinced.

>>I have a question for you... "WHAT" is... a...'NEO'-CON ?<<

It is not a term that I personally use, Boaz, on account of the fact that I have heard it employed in so many different ways, to pick just one might give the false impression that I know what I'm talking about, neo-con-wise.

But I did look it up for you, and here's what I found.

http://www.neocon.com/

But that's not what you are after. Here's another, slightly more convincing. Just the overview, naturally.

"A neo-conservative (abbreviated as neo-con or neocon) is part of a U.S. based political movement rooted in liberal Cold War anticommunism and a backlash to the social liberation movements of the 1960s and 1970s. These liberals drifted toward conservatism: thus they are new (neo) conservatives. They favor an aggressive unilateral U.S. foreign policy. They generally believe that elites protect democracy from mob rule."

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Neo-conservative

What this doesn't tell me, is whether they think that "elites protect[ing] democracy from mob rule" is a good thing, or a bad thing.

But I'm sure you will enlighten me at the appropriate time.

I'm curious Boazy, this issue would, more than anything, show a clear splinter between two groups branded as "conservative" than a left/right divide;
On one hand, you have Phelps and his religious fundamentalists who even despise American soldiers due to them being servants of a government to which they hate solely because they don't PENALIZE gays- beyond this motive, their campaign is something one would normally accuse "the left" of doing.
On the other hand, the patriots of the USA (dubbed conservative) would be staunchly against such a force that pickets soldier's funerals and declare themselves enemies of the country- yet they would also effectively be standing up for gay people, something else would normally be accused of "the left".
-What's your take on this?
It would be, in essence, a clash between political conservatives and fundamentalist Christians.

To your question, I would be uncertain, as this is probably still well into a necessity of free speech (as much as I'd love to see Phelps thrown in jail, along with a good many sharia preachers who would likely make a similar statement)

How is this a left/right issue. Poor judgement or intolerance is not confined to one ideological perspective or another. It is human nature to be more forgiving (if not in agreement) with those of like-mind, even the nutter fundamentalists excuse all sorts of appalling behaviour in the name of a cause.

Praying for someone to die may be a kind act in some cases when someone is in pain, even a religious person may ask that God 'take them' if they feel a person has suffered enough. It is context.

A public servant emailing a wish that an opponent or anyone should die would be in severe trouble in today's PC public service.

Not sure what your point is Al. Most people are aware of human nature's tendency to hypocrisy. Have you asked yourself the same questions about those seeking to "kill in the name of God".

Boazy first look in to your mirror.
We all should often.
I do not miss the point of the thread and understand you well.

People....this is the stuff of discussion! I love it. We don't have to agree, but delving into important issues is always of value.

Perilous.. seriously.. please make an exception to your policy of 'nogozone' for youtube. It's a monologue from Chris Christie, a man some see as Presidential material. "he" is the one the emailer wanted dead (even if in jest) and the follow up as Christie relates is extremely funny! now that alone should alert you to it's value :)
I don't offer the vid as 'evidence to persuade' of anything other than it illustrates a rather interesting perception of the world of US politics in the mind of a left wing public servant. It really is funny!

Now..re the definition of NEO...Con ? I think you captured it well. (the 2nd definition-sourcewatch.) Now.. this understanding of the NeoCon was new to me. I've always assumed they were 'Convervatives'

But in reality...they are former Democrats! peed off with the rise of the progressive/communist influence on all things Democrat. This was quite a revelation to me. It is also telling about the real nature of the current Democratic party.

The "Carefully selected point" dear P, was triggered by something you said remember. Bukhari's selection criteria was to eliminate ALL spurious traditions and only retain the most reliable, which makes the reference all the more relevant. Do you see this? and now that you understand Bukhari's selection criteria, you are a big step towards understanding why, in the context of understanding or exposing "Islam", (using Muhammad's example) it is such an important document.

Hazza and Pelly -next post.

Pericles... a tad more 4 u.

"What this doesn't tell me, is whether they think that "elites protect[ing] democracy from mob rule" is a good thing, or a bad thing."

I suspect that the 'progressive/liberal' idea that 'elites should run the show', carried over into their drift to conservatism.
That heritage would be something that neccessitates they regard such elite protection as 'good' I'd guess.

It also tells what is 'left' of the Democrats now. "Left of Marx" kinda. (if they can get away with it)

PELLY.. yes hypocrisy is present in all sides. But I believe it is the Left, is it not which cackles most frequently and eloquently about 'tolerance/understanding/inclusion' is it not ?

At the same time....the 'tolerant/inclusive/understanding' Left is also the loudest voice in condemning all opinion contrary to theirs.

See paragraph 1 of Marcuse essay "Repressive Tolerance"...have you read it yet ?
http://www.marcuse.org/herbert/pubs/60spubs/65repressivetolerance.htm

HAZZA

You say: //I'm curious Boazy, this issue would, more than anything, show a clear splinter between two groups branded as "conservative" than a left/right divide;//

*bingo*..yes it does indeed. But understanding the origins of the NeoCons is most important I feel. The only mob we usually hear about are the NEOCONS.. it would seem.(subjective impression) I think it gets back to the 'apostasy' thing. Ask a labor man (Belly?) how he feels about a 'true believer' who went Liberal :)

In the doco on Fox, some "NeoCons" are interviewed. During the rise of the NeoCons..the progressives seriously questioned their SANITY!
Which of course sounds alllll too MUCH like the Russian/Marxist state for me. Give progressives the power..and they will have us (conservatives) institutionalized in some Gulag! (I joke not)

I still don't buy it, Boaz.

>>a monologue from Chris Christie, a man some see as Presidential material. "he" is the one the emailer wanted dead (even if in jest)<<

The key here is "even in jest". A joke, in very poor taste. Not a death threat.

Mind you, it is hardly a surprise that you, with all the practice you have had deconstructing tenuous meaning from ancient scriptures, should select the interpretation that is most supportive of your argument. Some habits are too hard to break, aren't they.

As for the "man some see as Presidential material", I suspect this will come back to bite him.

>>...the follow up as Christie relates is extremely funny! now that alone should alert you to it's value<<

The US are probably less enamoured of comedic Presidents these days. If the show is as funny as you say, I doubt it has done any favours for his chances of being taken seriously.

>>...a rather interesting perception of the world of US politics in the mind of a left wing public servant. It really is funny<<

Comedy is like that. It provides a humorous take on an otherwise everyday situation. Did you ever see Ricky Gervais' "The Office"? Hardly a true reflection of real life, just a slightly skewed one, played for laughs.

It will be interesting to observe over time, how much damage it has inflicted on his presidential ambitions.

And you always were a sucker for religious propaganda, Boaz.

>>Bukhari's selection criteria was to eliminate ALL spurious traditions and only retain the most reliable<<

"Well, he would say that, wouldn't he?" (Mandy Rice-Davies)

You probably also believe that the selection of the books for inclusion in the Bible was divinely inspired, rather than the result of carefully considered political decisions.

It's ok, I don't expect that you will ever change. But equally, don't expect me to take your position seriously.

Dear Pericles... you covered quite a lot of ground there, and in your usual form you included a grandious number of 'tenuous' assumptions about where I'm coming from.

The point was to show how much the Left is up itself, excuse the french, where in the Vid (which you probably didn't see) Christie relates how the author of that email was encouraged to come to his office and apologise personally...He did... but after a time of back and forth and dancing... the Public servant came out with.....
"Well...thankyou for dropping by" :) now.. *think* about that. He was so self centred and engrossed in his world...that he didn't even realize he was in CHRISTIES office for goodness sake.

Now.. I'm going to start a new thread (if approved) where I will, as always value your input and insights..

I don't think this one will go much further, it wasn't exactly the most profound well of wisdom.

But do you now see (you might already have been aware) that the 'NeoCons' are in fact the original Democrats who left when the party was infected with a terminal case of progressive dogma?

1. I don't know how I feel about the death penalty, I don't think I am smart enough to be able to make that kind of decision
2. The Green River killer is a monster-sub human in my mind

Well I am making my rounds around town today-getting my entertainment from the Hate radio station here. Well, Dennis Kringle is spewing is natural stuff and actually said he is praying for his death. I don't get the morality of his statement.
Please don't flame me, I just need help in understating this situation.
<a href="http://www.healthlyheart.com">Health Bill</a>