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The Forum > General Discussion > It's the System

It's the System

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Fascinating subject.

Quoting a little more from Koestler:

"If we look at any form of social organisation with some degree of coherence and stability, from insect state to Pentagon, we shall find that it is hierarchically ordered. The same is true for the structure of living organisms and their ways of functioning...and it is equally true of the processes of becoming, phylogeny, ontogeny, and the acquisition of knowledge.
A "part", as we general use the word, means something fragmentary and incomplete, which by itself would have no legitimate existence. On the other hand, a "whole" is considered as something complete in itself. But "wholes" and "parts" in this absolute sense just do not exist anywhere. What we find are intermediary structures on a series of levels in an ascending order of complexity; sub-wholes...in speech...phonemes, words, phrases are wholes in their own right, but parts of a larger unit, so are cells, tissues organs families, clans, tribes...."

Koestler, then, is prioritising the hierachical order as one of ascending complexity.
Posted by Poirot, Friday, 10 September 2010 6:55:07 AM
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Dear Banjo,

I think there is a danger in making too close an analogy between the behaviour of non-human and human species. It is true there animals in some groups which have greater status than other animals. However, to go on to see that as a rigid hierarchy with all ranks defined analogous to lieutenants, sergeants and privates I think is unjustified. Animals recognise those animals with more power or status.

I have been watching Meerkat Manor on TV. It is a camera record of a group of meerkats living in the Kalahari desert. The head female produces all the young and usually manages to get rid of any other females who become pregnant.

However, I see hierarchy as the cause of many of our problems. Those who have power abuse it. Human rights included and exercised in law is a protection against abuse of power.

When I was in the army our commander ordered us to line up after evening mess. Then we were marched to a Baptist church where there was a revival meeting going on. We sat through it and then were marched back to barracks. Most of us resented it very much. Our commander had the right to order us into battle. He did not have the right to order us into a revival meeting. Somebody must have got to him as there were no more instances of that type.

However, that was an example of the abuse of power of a person in a hierarchy to those lower in a hierachy.
Posted by david f, Saturday, 11 September 2010 10:02:37 AM
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Dear David f.

"Animals recognise those animals with more power or status".

It seems to me that humans also recognise humans with more power or status - which is probably connected to the survival of the communal group.
How can it be denied that human societies arrange themselves into a hierarchy? Every human society, from caveman to capitalist, regardless of the "system" does this. It is just one of the hierarchical constructs that affect humans.
Can you give me an example of a human society that does not arrange itself into a hierarchy - including communism?
Posted by Poirot, Saturday, 11 September 2010 11:25:45 AM
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Dear Poirot,

Certainly all human societies organise themselves into hierarchies.

There are two types of hierarchy. One type is called functional. The other is line.

A functional hierarchy is one set up to achieve a certain task such as building a bridge, producing artefacts etc. Once the task is completed that type of hierarchy dissolves. If the task is a continuing one the leadership is periodically changed.

The other type of hierarchy is the line hierarchy where there is a devolution of authority from top to bottom, and there is no connection with a particular task. All governments whether democratic, authoritarian or whatever are example of line hierarchies.

Political anarchism is an attempt to get rid of the second type of hierarchy. Anarchists are capable of organising in armies, modes of production, schools etc. However they reject governmental hierarchy.
Posted by david f, Saturday, 11 September 2010 11:59:00 AM
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.

Dear David & Poirot,

.

The world would be a better place if all debate could become dialectic, but I guess that is utopic.

.
Posted by Banjo Paterson, Saturday, 11 September 2010 7:32:37 PM
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Dear Banjo,

If we were talking about it would be atopic. Maybe it is.
Posted by david f, Saturday, 11 September 2010 8:11:56 PM
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