Strange thing is Pericles, so many of these people making the NAY case are still trying to piggyback some kind of extreme-case-scenario or the 'freedom of women' case, as if it were never debunked before.

Oh well, we did try to stimulate some new debate, but this thread was nice while it lasted.
I think I'll resume avoiding any more Muslim, abortion, euthanasia debates save for a quick initial remark because they tend to go belly up quite quickly.

Which is a pity because there are lots of parts of these topics that would be good to talk about.

Dear Al,

Just picking up on Glenn Beck again.

I had a bit of a squizz at his show last week. I must admit he was highly entertaining, however, as far as I am concerned it's for all the wrong reasons.
The whole performance appeared to me to be a well rehearsed monologue, from the pensive silences to the all-knowing stares into nothingness.
Notwithstanding that any showman has the right to strut his stuff (I watched Swaggart back in the eighties and it has to be said that the man was a consumate entertainer).
But what am I to make of Beck implying that the arrest and torture of Obama's grandfather by the British colonialists in Kenya is the reason the President has come down so hard on BP?....unbelievable.

Pericles.. I'll grant you a minor point on my lack of clarity:

>>The Burqa is total concealment and is thus a danger to public safety<<

yes.. it is a danger to public safety if allowed in places where Identity is critical. That people in public places have EXPLOITED it for criminal activity should be adequate evidence to the rational and reasoned mind that what I said is fundamentally true.

Dear Poirot :)

glad you are taking a wait and see or (watch and see) approach to Beck.

He is definitely entertaining, and at times it can be difficult to know when he is using showmanship and when not.. but mostly I believe he is concerned with the points he is seeking to make, not to just be entertaining. Tonights show might have been a bit hard for you to view.. he contrasted a $25,000 donation toward the Wounded Warrior group with a letter he received containing a widows mite. a plastic bag with 8 pennies in it. He became very emotional, genuinely I believe, but probably deep down realizing it would be 'good' also for the focal point of 8-28 (and 27) With power and clout also comes a temptation to spin, manipulate, make use of, and generally exploit proven public attributes which touch the heart.

I'm not worried about Beck, I'm sure, being human he experiences them all. Please follow up over th enext few days where he will be 'unpacking' the civil rights movement... should be interesting.

Re Obama? hmmm it was not his treatment of BP which Beck made such a fuss about in connecting his Grandfathers treatment..it was his behavior toward the Brits in general returning a gift of a bust of Churchhill.. could one be more insulting to the British nation? I doubt it.

As for Swaggart ? *There but for the grace of God and the fickleness of man, go I, Beck and anyone else*

Has it ever occurred to anyone else that the biggest casualties occur are Muslim as the terrorists wreck havoc promoting their evil agenda.

Yes Richie it has.

In fact I read about this wayyyyyy back in the time just after Muhammad died.

There was a contention between his spiritual 'heirs' Abu Bakkar (Father of his child wife) and Umar.

Muslim_Book 001, Number_0029:

It is narrated on the authority of Abu Huraira that when the Messenger of Allah breathed his last and Abu Bakr was appointed as his successor , those amongst the Arabs who wanted to become apostates became apostates. 'Umar b. Khattab said to Abu Bakr: Why would you fight against the people, when the Messenger of Allah declared: I have been directed to fight against people so long as they do not say: There is no god but Allah, and he who professed it was granted full protection of his property and life on my behalf except for a right? His affairs rest with Allah. Upon this Abu Bakr said: By Allah, I would definitely fight against him who severed prayer from Zakat, for it is the obligation upon the rich. By Allah, I would fight against them even to secure the cord (used for hobbling the feet of a camel) which they used to give to the Messenger of Allah (as zakat) but now they have withheld it. Umar b. Khattab remarked: By Allah, I found nothing but the fact that Allah had opened the heart of Abu Bakr for (perceiving the justification of) fighting (against those who refused to pay Zakat) and I fully recognized that Abu Bakr was right.

COMMENT
The point of contention from Umar was that he could not justify fighting against those who confessed Muhammad was the prophet, whereas Abu Bakkar insisted that if they confessed Muhammad as prophet but failed to pay the 'Zakat' tax, they were in fact apostates.

Then..they fall under the clear category echoed from Surah 9:29

"Fight those who do not believe in Allah" etc

So... from this haddith it can be seen that fighting against even Muslims who are regarded as 'apostates' for some minor infraction of Islamic law was thereupon justified for all time.

RICHIE

it's worth nothing about that particular hadith

http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/hadith/muslim/001.smt.html

That the 'lesson' Umar learned there, was later applied exactly to the invasion of the Persians. In their case though, it was not about apostate Muslims, but simply 'infidels'. The same verse is quoted (9.29) to justify the invasion and enslavement and here is the relevant portion of that hadith.

http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/hadith/bukhari/053.sbt.html#004.053.386

CONTEXT:

Bukhari Volume 4, Book 53, Number 386:

Narrated Jubair bin Haiya:

'Umar sent the Muslims to the great countries to fight the pagans. When Al-Hurmuzan embraced Islam, 'Umar said to him. "I would like to consult you regarding these countries which I intend to invade."

PARTICULAR

The other asked, "Who are you?" Al-Mughira replied, "We are some people from the Arabs; we led a hard, miserable, disastrous life: we used to suck the hides and the date stones from hunger; we used to wear clothes made up of fur of camels and hair of goats, and to worship trees and stones. While we were in this state, the Lord of the Heavens and the Earths, Elevated is His Remembrance and Majestic is His Highness, sent to us from among ourselves a Prophet whose father and mother are known to us.

*KEY BIT*
Our Prophet, the Messenger of our Lord, has ordered us to fight you till you worship Allah Alone or give Jizya (i.e. tribute);

and our Prophet has informed us that our Lord says:-- "Whoever amongst us is killed (i.e. martyred), shall go to Paradise to lead such a luxurious life as he has never seen, and whoever amongst us remain alive, shall become your master.

COMMENT The last portion above, shows the clear support for 'suicide bombing' or dying while fighting in the way of Allah.

Infufficient attention is given by most commentators on the significance of these writings in seeking to understand the mindset of either Burqa or Bomber.