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The Forum > General Discussion > The Free Trade Ideology is Misplaced

The Free Trade Ideology is Misplaced

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Part 1
Again, Peter you are delving into selective extremes to make your point.

Unlike you, I don't accept that there is a simple correlation between
your 3 grade multiplication and Free Trade Ideology

One is an arithmetical conclusion the other is a theory based on an abstraction.

FTI is fine as an aspirational goal but where the rubber meets the road there are innumerable externalities that contribute to the out come. Simply deducing that what is INDICATED in abstraction and therefore assuming that it in its simplicity can be applied with accuracy or impunity to the real world is nonsense. Common sense tells one that these un/ill defined externalities (other factors) wil distort and create problems beyond that of the theory.
To then cobble together add ons etc simply creates fertile ground for unexpected conflicts and failings.

Think of my point as a line of computer code...in its self it is good however put that line of code with 2-4million others in a program you will get .....windows Vista a set of unpredictable problems. The reason is clear, the compatibility, with other code, operating system, languages, components, permutations et sec.
In life, when applying an abstract theory the complications are exponentially more.

You point about witch craft in context confirms your selectivity of factor to meet your theory and indication of possibilities of the z dimension.
You focused on the ones to you that are nonsense. It all depend on your objective/goal You a suggesting that the only viable options are those that are determined by Capitalism (as it is practised now) and Socialism.
Posted by examinator, Saturday, 21 August 2010 4:48:02 PM
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What in effect I was saying you and your ilk have the tendency to not recognise that there may well be totally different and better systems available. Systems that may not include the current understanding of Capitalism V Socialism.
You are trying to prove that there is ABSOLUTELY nothing else other than C or S or varying degrees there of.( I.e. a negative ...good luck)

Economics (capitalism) has yet to meet the Scientific standards tests of objectivity, testability, repeatability and PREDICTABILITY.

I posit because of the un/ill defined conditions and externalities and their unaccounted influences on the the Free Trade Ideology.

All philosophies make the mistake espousing or assuming a GUT OATH (grand united theory of all things human) and come unstuck.

Have an acceptable nigh
Posted by examinator, Saturday, 21 August 2010 4:49:36 PM
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Your argument is intellectually and morally bankrupt and you know it.

If there is no way of knowing whether trade restrictions produce a net benefit, then there is no moral or technical justification for forcibly overriding people’s voluntary relations.

But if it can be proved, then what is the proof?

And if everything is mere “ideology”, and there is no possibility of rational knowledge, how are you in any better position? The absolutist GUT OATH ideology is all your own.

And if you can’t understand the disproofs of trade restrictions either from simple arithmetic, or the history of socialism, what makes you think you’re going to recognise it in any more complex form?

To talk of an unknown alternative is sheer dunderheaded ignorance. Either action is voluntary, or its not, fool. How can your smart-arsed alternative change that?

And unless you can show how your non-existent alternative is going to be in any better position to take account of externalities, have the honesty to admit that you have lost the argument.

I have shown how my argument could be falsified. You haven’t, because yours can’t be.
Therefore it’s not that I’m failing to recognize the possibility there’s a middle way. It’s that you are failing to recognize there isn’t.

Perhaps if we just keep trying socialism it might work eventually? That is the level of your entire argument. It’s idiocy like this that keeps falling for Great Leaps Forward, and Five Year Plans, and pink batt schemes, and buying school buildings worth $100,000 for a million dollars, thinking it makes everyone better off. Idiocy.

All forms of protectionism, socialism and interventionism amount to wishful thinking that physical laws and reason don’t bind us, and we can make up any economic reality we want by simply passing laws or redistributing property. We can’t, child.

Yours is nothing a culpable flight from reason, an embrace of perpetual credulity focused on the state. It is infantile narcissism, squalling for some responsible person to put a big tit of warm milk in your mouth, at someone else's expense.
Posted by Peter Hume, Saturday, 21 August 2010 8:58:12 PM
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Examinator,

"....idealism ........ tends to interpolate as a visceral competition between the two polarised extremes ( Labor V Liberals aka capitalism V socialism). Clearly what is missing are the Z axis dimensions."

The tendency of progress within nature to involve a swinging back and forth between archetypal negative extremes, as well as to sometimes find balance, is known as the dialectic. Originally described by GWF Hegel for a Western audience after meditation on yin/yang polarity, the idea was unfortunately made most famous by Karl Marx, who in my opinion significantly bastardized the idea.

I would say that the main dialectic tension that we have witnessed within the progress of human history over the last few centuries has been between the extremes of 'collectivism' and what I call 'separatism'. This tension has obviously been manifest in the struggle between capitalism and communism, but is also much wider than this, covering a range of subjects.

Being the optimist, it is my belief that we are moving into a time when that tension is dissolved.
Posted by GilbertHolmes, Sunday, 22 August 2010 11:53:49 AM
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Peter, Part 1

Your entire White Christian rational is based on a belief, a perspective, that limits the focus to the X-Y axis. Calling me names doesn't change the facts much less prove you are correct.

I'm not trying to prove anything more than there are always other/better options. As sentient people, our task is to find them.

e.g the neolithic man saw his food wax and wane with the sun. It was reasonable for him to worship it as a deity. But as knowledge rose rather than a capricious god it was a physical phenomenon.
What organises the the universe is still a mystery and like Alexander Pope's fleas the search for the God particle,GUT or TOE (the absolute) will continue ad infinitum.

History as a tool for prediction of the future is a blunt tool as it doesn't fully take into account the differences in contexts . Look at the 1927 stock exchange crash didn't prevent or will not prevent future clashes between economic applied theory and reality.

Show me where True *unadulterated* Free trade exists, where the externalities are taken into an account that results in 70% of the ideology? i.e. that it doesn't cause other problems that have greater reaching problems. Show me where it's enforcement hasn't been exploitative, benefiting the imposer to the detriment of the culture of people it is imposed on.

Consider PNG was full of 800 nations that were relatively stable for about 40-80000 years (depending on who you read). Look at it now, a basket case, a poster nation of all that is wrong with our capitalistic free market world.

Clearly your view/perspective is that of a WWCE (white western cultural enthusiast) likewise it filters you acquisition capacities. Sorry, I have lived and been part of alternative and they work to the *same* (limited) satisfaction of the individuals involved
Posted by examinator, Sunday, 22 August 2010 4:15:28 PM
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Part 2
The point I was making is a multilayer one, that incorporates moral (human sensitive) aspects.

- if you ignore the human aspect your theory of Free trade Ideology, which is based on WWCE benefit structures/concepts, economics (the blanks, unknowns are bolstered with beliefs and non universal constructs) naturally any argument won't gell for you.
That doesn't make it wrong just different. Right or wrong is subjective, a belief.

FTI is fine as an aspirational goal but it does currently fosters/thrives in an non level playing field. That has bugger all to do with Socialism V Capitalism.

Define, the aspects that are uniquely Socialistic....not in any other political ideology like conservatism or the Liberalism Menzies deliberately intended. et al
Posted by examinator, Sunday, 22 August 2010 4:18:17 PM
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