The Buddhists of Burma may want to bump off the baptized according to a recent article.

Burma 'orders Christians to be wiped out'

By Peter Pattisson in Kayin State, southern Burma, Sunday Telegraph

The military regime in Burma is intent on wiping out Christianity in the country, according to claims in a secret document believed to have been leaked from a government ministry. Entitled "Programme to destroy the Christian religion in Burma", the incendiary memo contains point by point instructions on how to drive Christians out of the state.

The text, which opens with the line "There shall be no home where the Christian religion is practised", calls for anyone caught evangelising to be imprisoned. It advises: "The Christian religion is very gentle – identify and utilise its weakness."

Its discovery follows widespread reports of religious persecution, with churches burnt to the ground, Christians forced to convert to the state religion, Buddhism, and their children barred from school.

Human rights groups claim that the treatment meted out to Christians, who make up six per cent of the population, is part of a wider campaign by the regime, also targeted at ethnic minority tribes, to create a uniform society in which the race and language is Burmese and the only accepted religion is Buddhism.

In the past year, an estimated 27,000 members of the predominantly Christian Karen tribe were driven from their homes in eastern Burma.

In Koh Kyi village, in Arakan State, a monk backed by the military burnt down the local church. In another state, 300 monks were allegedly sent by the regime to forcibly convert the populace, all of whom belonged to the Chin ethnic group, which is mostly Christian.

...

Eha Hsar Paw, a Karen Christian, who fled her village while heavily pregnant to a refugee camp near the border with Thailand, said: "The journey here was very difficult. It was hard to leave our village, but if we had stayed there we would all be dead."

Christians are persecuted all over the world. Try reading a Bible, or holding a private worship service to God in your lounge room, in North Korea, Saudi Arabia, or China (amongst others) and see what happens.

People complain about religion and politics getting in bed with each other in the West- I'm sorry, but even in Bible belt America it is not as bad for atheists as it is for Christians in the many countries where Christian belief/practice is seen as action against the state, and punishable by death and other severe penalties. Estimates are at 200-400 million Christians under the threat of persecution at the moment, but it doesn't get a lot of air time for many reasons (e.g., fear of offending foreign countries, ignorance, etc.).

For those Christians who are concerned with supporting their persecuted fellow Christians around the world, http://www.opendoors.org.au/index.cfm?page=1 is a good place to start.

I have heard about the illegality of Christianity in Saudi Arabia. That surprised me as I considered Saudi Arabia to be a moderate Islamic country given that they assisted America during the Gulf War.

The article currently under discussion I also found interesting as the media like to hold out Muslims as the ones persecuting Christians yet in a Buddhist country it seems to be at least as bad and actual Monks are involved by burning down Churches. Having said that I guess Buddhist monks are the obvious choice for taking direct action as most Eastern Martial Arts were originally the pastimes of Buddhist Monks.

Actually, there's been some issues with "extremist" Buddhists in Sri Lanka persecuting Christians as well- they're worried about them converting everyone to Christianity.

"Buddhist clerics wanted to prevent the further advancement of Christianity in Sri Lanka, while attention was directed to winning back those who had professed the Christian faith. In addition the powerful Sinhalese Buddhist lobby is demanding privileges for themselves at the expense of the Christian minority. Over the years there has also been a clamor by high-ranking Buddhist clergy that the government introduces legislature to control religious conversion

The small communities of Christian evangelicals working mainly in the rural areas are often the targets of organized religious oppression. Those creating the anti-Christian attitudes use the public platform and the influence of the local monk to rouse the villagers to violence, and this has often resulted in damage or physical injury. While they generally demand that Christians leave what they call "Buddhist villages", they view some areas as Buddhist preserves where no Christian place of worship will be tolerated. The apathy of the law enforcers, who are mostly Buddhist, has resulted in the burning of 24 churches during the past two years.

To date, over 200 pastors/Christian workers have been threatened; over 90 pastors have been assaulted and hospitalized; four pastors killed and no arrests have been made."
http://www.opendoors.org/content/srilanpro.htm

Bhutan is also quite closed to religious freedom.
http://www.portesouvertes.ch/index.php?supp_page=bt&supp_lang=en

YngNLuvnt, is this persecution aimed at people that practise Christianity themselves, or those that are trying to convert? Some missionaries are extraordinarily zealous in their attempts to convert "heathens". I know of one such idiot that is trying to set up an evangelical Christian school in Iran. I guess he'll be called a martyr - I say he'll get whats coming to him.

There is a problem when people who are simply trying to practise their religious beliefs are prevented from doing so. Its a slightly different story when the "victim" has bene actively trying to convert others to their own religion. Who cant do that without expecting to get some negative opinion. I dont condone violence in any aspect, but there is certainly a distinction and I do see one as being worse than the other.

Could we have the rhetoric toned down a notch, please.

mjpb, your post begins with the claim that “The Buddhists of Burma may want to bump off the baptized” while the article you refer to accuses the Burmese military regime, not the “buddhists of Burma,” of planning a campaign against christians. (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/01/21/wburma21.xml)

This may seem like a picky point, but this is precisely how racial and religious vilification works. In previous posts you have objected to others making claims about christians attacking gays, arguing that because attacking any minority is against christian teaching, it is unfair to talk generally about christian wrongdoings.

The least you can do is apply the same standards to yourself.

Like despotic rulers throughout history, the rulers of Burma have shown themselves very willing to use persecution of minorities, such as the Karen people, as a means of consolidating their power. If they are planning to extend this strategy to the christians of Burma, this needs to be soundly condemned, and the minorities affected (*all* the minorities affected) need to be supported as much as possible.

Blaming buddhists for the sins of a nasty regime is not a way to support those minorities.

Mjpb,

Is that right?

Monks and martial arts! Saudi Arabia a moderate Islamic country!

The Burmese government gets bad press, but Buddhists persecuting Christians?

Hard to believe! Buddhists have a very peaceful reputation.

Fortunately, w has supplied a link to the article you have taken as gospel and, having read it, I must say it could be true or it could be untrue. People can write anything, you know. The article seems pretty flimsy to me, with “a secret report” and hearsay from a villager who might or might not exist

A collegue of mine regularly visits Karen refugees in Thailand and I can tell you that the persecution is real. In fact the burmese regularly attack the karen refugees INSIDE Thailand and the Thai government does nothing

mjpb,

Generalisation and overt duduction does not help make a convincing argument. It is hard to conceive Buddhist monks forming a mob attacking innocent people, if their core belief is to be eradicate their worldly desires and anger. Please study the Buddist belief system before coining them as another mob with great political aspirations.

As with your title "If you think Christians are unwelcome here...", I assume by "here", you are referring to our own country. So since when has there been another religion in Australia that is more popular and widespread than Christianity?

May I also add, there are people calling themselves "Christian" (I have met quite a number of them), but their only concern is how to satisfy their materialistic needs (such as buying the latest iPod, cars, fashion etc). While there is nothing wrong with this, I would have thought that genuine Christians would be a "man for others", rather than for themselves. So your question might be valid if you are referring to these professed 'Christians" who are really taken up by all the temptations around their existence.

"'Programme to destroy the Christian religion in Burma", the incendiary memo contains point by point instructions on how to drive Christians out of the state.

The text, which opens with the line "There shall be no home where the Christian religion is practised", calls for anyone caught evangelising to be imprisoned. It advises: "The Christian religion is very gentle – identify and utilise its weakness.' "

Oh, if only it were true... can we not extend this policy to Australia, include Islam, and rid our society of all of the goat-herders' tiresome hocus pocus?

I'm quite sure both Australia would be a much more congenial place in which to live. Not so sure about Burma :)

Hey,

Yeah I agree, most Buddhists are SO nice. Even as a non-Buddhist I felt sad when learning about the persecution because I thought "my goodness, even some of the Buddhists are anti-peace!"

I agree, there's a difference between Bible bashing and private worship. I've met numerous "missionaries" who were basically just pastors of local underground churches but if they were caught with merely the Bible as a possession they would be killed. Its scary.

Open Doors is a reputable organisation, started by Brother Andrew, a man who used to smuggle Bibles into Communist countries (and escaped death many times). They work to strengthen the millions upon millions of Christians around the world who are denied basic human rights purely on the basis of their Christian beliefs. While some are quite obviously "zealous", most are very respectful. Feel free to browse the website, especially the newsletters, and see pictures of women widowed by "extremists" (who the government turns a blind eye to) simply because their husbands were Christians. Or the three women who were put in jail in Indonesia for teaching a Sunday School class- even though the parents of the Children had given permission for their children to attend.

Freedom of religion (including freedom of non-forceful conversion) is one of the "Aussie values" I'm really proud of today :)

Who thinks Christians are unwelcome here?

W,

It has been a while. A belated happy new year to you. Thanks for posting the link. I had the article emailed to me without a link.

You may be correct in saying that because the military regime are identified that it is not Buddhists responsible. However the article also states that:

“…is part of a wider campaign by the regime, also targeted at ethnic minority tribes, to create a uniform society in which the race and language is Burmese and the only accepted religion is Buddhism”

I’d figure that if they want the only accepted religion to be Buddhist that they must be Buddhists. However you are correct. I don’t know they are Buddhists for certain. The monk who burnt down the Church was presumably Buddhist but I have heard of an Anglican priest who didn’t believe in God so anything is possible. It worked well for the alliteration in any event. ( :

“This may seem like a picky point, but this is precisely how racial and religious vilification works. In previous posts you have objected to others making claims about christians attacking gays, arguing that because attacking any minority is against christian teaching, it is unfair to talk generally about christian wrongdoings.”

Do you mean when I object to Christians being accused of condoning the actions of baseball wielding thugs because they consider homosexual behaviour a sin with my response being that another Christian teaching is loving neighbours and that doesn’t include baseball bashing? If so I’d draw the distinction as I believed that the aggressors are Buddhist (although I now concede they might not have been) while the Christians were accused without being the actual aggressors.

You commenced the post with “Could we have the rhetoric toned down a notch, please.” Obviously that invites a perusal of your posts to see if you are in a position to be throwing stones. I haven’t done so. How confident are you?

Clarification: By "here" I meant in OLO.
Leigh: Just like any other the article may not be correct

Where you have belief in gods or religion you have conflict. Religion or belief in gods is the worship of the ego. To worship a god requires complete self obsession , other people are an irritant because they are not as special. Further more the fact that deities of superstition such as god are not universal polarise the fact that each and every religion is based on a culture of lies and deciet. The spreading of such beliefs is dependent on dishonest predatory behaviour. All of course lead to conflict. Even when those of other religions are rounded up and ethnically cleansed as following false gods then sectarianism kicks in and new waves of violence sweep nations. For those who have visited both a Catholic and a pentecostal or Baptist church in the past year and have talked to people know the animosity and contempt Christians have for each other. Praying for secularism to fall so religion can go to war. The ego's of each god worshipper are simply far to big for there to be room for another on this planet.

Both the Christians and Buddhists in Burma are in the wrong. If they had any sense they would give up religion. If they dont then they have nothing to complain about.

I should add that an old Thai Christian friend used to say all to often that Buddhists are devil worshippers. With that sort of sentiment being preached in Asia ( I have heard it preached here too) why be shocked when a Christian antagonist is punched in the nose?

West

You have just written the biggest load of unsubstantiated garbage I have ever read. I don’t know where to start.

Where did you get your information from? What reliable source are you quoting?

In my 30 as a Christian I have had some minor disagreements with other Christians, but I have never experienced the "animosity and contempt" that you so authoritatively say is evident amoung Christians.

You say that every religion is based on lies and deceit. How do you know? Do you know everything. Do you knbow for sure that there is no God? Can you guarentee that? If you can't then how can you make such a sweeping statement?

It seems to me that somewhere along the line you have had a bad experience with Religion. I can think of no other explanation for such bitterness.

Thankyou Proverbs you demonstrate my point. You attack me on the basis of your beliefs but are not willing to prove god to substantiate or justify yourself first.

It is my belief that God exists, but I quantified all my statements with phrases "in my opinion" or "I believe" or "in my experrience". You made no such statement. Everything you said in your post you did so as if it were fact. I just want to know, on what basis do you make the following statements and do you have any evidence to back it up?

"Where you have belief in gods or religion you have conflict. Religion or belief in gods is the worship of the ego. To worship a god requires complete self obsession , other people are an irritant because they are not as special. Further more the fact that deities of superstition such as god are not universal polarise the fact that each and every religion is based on a culture of lies and deciet. The spreading of such beliefs is dependent on dishonest predatory behaviour. All of course lead to conflict."

"in your opinion" ect does not quantify your beliefs. Either you recieved your claimed knowledge of god directly and doubtlessly through direct and unmistakeable communication. Reliant of course that that god was able to prove his/its honesty. Or alternatively you have not had such and indepth transferrence of information and so all your beliefs are then mo more than your personal fantasy a fetishisation of occult material such as the bible.

The entire history of religion testifies that religion is a major if not the primary source of conflict between people.

Proverbs,

Westy habitually makes those posts. He will say worse if you converse with him. Your comment about his theoretical bad experience has been made many times before. He never replies to that enquiry.

Westy,

Happy new year. Some things don't change I see. I was wondering how long it would take for you to show up in a forum which mentions Christians.

Thanks for the heads up MJBP

After West's last post I figured that logical discussion was not one of his strong points.

But for your information West I would not continue to be a Christian for 30 years and put up with attacks from people like you if God had not proven himself to be very very real to me

mjpb, you're (deliberately?) misreading my post. Go back and read it again, and maybe you should re-read this one too: http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=5025#59448

Essentially, I'm not prepared to cross the line which you did in your original post here. You won't find me doing it in any of my posts: http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/user.asp?id=26885&show=history

Further to my point about how ethnic vilification works, I'd also recommend that you watch SBS at 7:30 PM tonight (Tuesday 30 January):

http://www.sbs.com.au/whatson/index.php3?id=1396
Blue Eyed: Indecently Exposed

Jane Elliot is an inconspicuous little old lady, but her workshops are astounding.

As a taster, check out her list of "typical statements" http://www.janeelliott.com/statements.htm

We need to learn to differenciate between discrimination based on a persons race, gender, height or other characteristics that cannot be changed, and disagreeing with a persons choice of religion, sexual preference or even football team. Having said that, we should allways respect the individual even though we may disagree with their opinion or preference.

I should be free to disagree with with the practice of homosexuals or muslims or collingwood supporters as long as I do not disrespect the individuals involved. I should also be free to disagree with their practises without being subjected to personal attacks.

I do resent negative labels such as Homophobic. Now it seems that Muslims have also taken to labeling anyone who disagrees with them as Islamaphobic. They say that attack is the best form of defence and what better way to attack somebody who disagrees with you than to accuse them of having an irrational and ilogigal fear. What will this come to? Is Kevin Rudd a Liberalaphobic or was Peter Brock a Fordaphobic.

If we are so insecure and unable to inteligently defend our opinions and ideas, using arguments based on fact and without resorting to name calling then maybe we need to review our opinions and ideas

w,

Sometimes picky points can be the hardest to grasp...

Thank you for the information.

You post less frequently than I expected but the topics are usually in accordance with my expectations. I'm still not intending to wade through them. How about I take your word for it at the moment?

Proverbs writes “I should be free to disagree with the practice of homosexuals or Muslims or Collingwood supporters as long as I do not disrespect the individuals involved. I should also be free to disagree with their practises without being subjected to personal attacks.”

So its ok for Proverbs to bash Homosexuals and Moslems with the justification of superstition but its not ok for anybody to criticise morally corrupt, deceitful and dishonest practices such as Christianity.

Yet proverbs attacked me for disagreeing with superstition and acknowledging the negative and immoral path that superstition leads to.

Still it is good to see what I said about the ego is confirmed by proverbs and mjpb , you took what I said about religion as a personal attack on you and so thought it necessary to personally attack me. Personal attack is the Christian way, I understand that but proverbs it only confirms my point and discredits your own point about your 30 years of superstition. I also suggest you look up the definition of logic obviously you don’t know what it is. This is not an attack but serious advice.

I believe anybody can believe what they want as long as they keep it to themselves, this includes childish mythology such as Jesus or fairies. Who cares? But here we see in Proverbs exercising the Christian agenda of persecuting homosexuals and Moslems and this thread is an obvious Christian attempt at persecuting Buddhists.

Proverbs I retract my earlier question and expect your God to speak for you if indeed your god supports you. You know full well no god will be knocking on my door to put in a good word for you because god does not exist.

West

I simply said that I personlly disagree with the practice of Homosexuality. I also stated that it is important respect the person as a valuable and important individual. I did not on any occasion use Christianity to justify my position on homosexualty. That is your assumption, not mine.

I do not persecute Homosexuals or muslims or anyone. I may disagree with what they do but that is totally different. How can you possibly call disagreeing with Homosexual practice "Homosexual bashing".

That is very agressive and Emotive terminology.

If you want an open and civil discussion that is fine. I am more than happy to discuss facts.

You use such harsh language like.

"morally corrupt, deceitful and dishonest practices...........superstition......negative and immoral path......childish mythology...........Christian agenda of persecuting homosexuals and Moslems"

What factual proof do you offer that supports such accusations and don't say "just look at history" be specific.

Common West. Stop the name calling and the wild emotive accusations and lets have a civilised discussion based on facts.