Many Australians, (of all ages), would love the chance of long-term employment within the mining sector, however the major parties continue to advocate the use of overseas workers. A far better solution would be to offer incentives to mining companies and their suppliers, to train suitable Australians for positions, with tax breaks to companies doing the right thing, (that softens the new mining tax!) and no tax breaks for companies refusing to train new staff.

Currently, every resource based job advertisement declares experience a pre-requisite – they don’t want to train anybody. They will once again rape and pillage local governments and small business for trained staff, then when that pool runs dry, import cheap temporary labour from overseas.

The second-tier mining companies ad might say “You’ll get whacked,” what they don’t tell you, is you’ll get whacked anyway – the price of everything goes sky-high and the wider community gains very little if any real benefit, the price of everything soars. Then when it all goes off the boil, they retrench faster than any other business in Australia. Make no mistake, if you're not employed within the mining sector, there is NO benefit from any mining boom, unless you have rental property.

Returning to the concept of training people already living in Australia, I’m talking blue-collar labourers, Howard’s Battlers, not graduate engineers etc. It isn’t difficult, or expensive, to train somebody to drive an ore truck, a loader, or a forklift, or to use a welder for that matter and the long-term benefit to Australia is profound. If a skilled person is not available for a position, anyone who is a suitable candidate and an Australian resident, but without the necessary experience, should be given the opportunity of being trained for the position.

Whoever is elected - Julia Gillard, Tony Abbott ... or Kevin Rudd?? - has a wonderful opportunity to help all Australians benefit from the envisaged mining boom. The Greens, although seemingly incapable of negotiation, should they gain control in the Senate, could push for this, rather than trying to impose ludicrous tax levels on mining companies.

This reminds me a bit of the rise of fascism in Italy.

Once the Unions/socialists occupied the farms.. they then TOLD the farmers how many workers they MUST employ. (economic viability left out in the woodshed?)

So.. ok.. you want to make your case..give us some FACTS and FIGURES
to base our opinion of your opinion on.

a) What training is involved?
b) How many Aussies have been rejected for overseas workers.. ie... is your point assumption or based on evidence? If on evidence.. put up or shut up.

You’re making me smile and yes, Al Gore is rich – the bastard, he’s on the wrong side, he’s not supposed to have money! However, you’re looking for facts my friend.

Training: Dump truck (electric), four – five days, with an additional one week observation period. Tipper truck driving, three days for tray top, one week for semi plus two to three days for tipper. Road train (MC) tipper work – Side, Belly etc, is more complicated and requires, by law, several years semi experience before an MC licence is granted, then six months or so tipper work, before graduating to MC Side and Belly dumping. There are also considerable safety and maintenance issues involved here, all of which need experience. Welding – two – five days for repetitive work. Labourers / off-siders / cleaners – two to three days.

Available Mining Jobs: I don’t know what’s advertised in Eastern States (NSW / VIC) newspapers, however a search of The West Australian on any Wednesday, or Saturday will conclusively prove my point that mining companies and their sub-contractors will not train anyone. Of course the best / most obvious indicator is the major job website SEEK, have a scroll through.

Rejection of Australian-based workers: I’m not in a position to give exact details, however the 457 Visa method was used extensively throughout WA in the previous boom period and not only by miners, even native timber furniture manufactures brought in overseas cheaper labour, not to mention some vehemently anti-union construction companies that positivly revelled in the availability of cheaper overseas labour.

But look, I have no idea what your occupation is, so may I suggest a little trial? Apply for a mining job that you’re not trained or qualified for (not a discipline requiring a degree) and let us know how you go. As you say, put up or shut up.

While slightly off-thread, the mining companies also refuse to build local townships for their employees, which saves them a bit of money but causes enormous disruption to employees' lives and causes even more dislocation of government services.

If miners created townships as they once did, it would be so much easier to deliver much-needed education and medical services in many remote areas.

*however a search of The West Australian on any Wednesday, or Saturday will conclusively prove my point that mining companies and their sub-contractors will not train anyone.*

Not so, Larrikan. I know a bloke who was given an electricians
apprenticeship by Woodside. One of my relatives was trained as
a wireline operator by miners, the list goes on. Haulpack drivers
etc, are all trained on site.

You can teach somebody to do a bit of welding, but there is a huge
difference between that and welding together multi million $
infrastructure equipment, where trained boilermaker welders
are required.

The reason you only see ads for skilled people is because that is
where the shortage lies. Any jobs for the unskilled or easily
trained, are quickly snapped up, often before they hit the papers,
because people within the industry find jobs for their mates.

*If miners created townships as they once did*

Cornflower, the way I understand it, miners commonly respond to
the requests of their workforce and many wives simply don't want
to live in places like the Pilbara. They claim its too hot,
too many flies and not enough shopping etc. So fly in fly out,
makes a great deal of sense.

Its not just miners affected. Country areas, just a few hours
from Perth, face a huge doctor shortage. Even if the doctors
can be found and paid extra, their wives commonly don't want
to live in the country, so many travel back to Perth every
weekend.

Larry can.

The mining companies do training, but like most organisations employ the majority with experience.

Greetings Yabby, I agree, there are some examples of on-site training – full credit to FMG for their commitment to training Indigenous staff, however the great majority of training is more induction than equipment specific. Apart from cases of internal promotion, e.g.: Field hand to Haulpack driver, I would be amazed to learn of any mining company (or contractor) who takes on un-trained Haulpack drivers in any other situation.

And yes, you are quite right about the requirement for trained boiler maker welders, but that is my point, if we give people a start with basic welding, then train them up and here, I see no problems with people signing contracts – much as happens with teachers and to a lesser extent, doctors – we train you, you’ll stay working for us for three years, that sort of thing, commitment must work both ways.

The point about only seeing ads for skilled people is exactly my point (excluding graduate type roles), the mining companies should be training people for these positions, they’ve avoided it for many years, I think the new tax should be used as a Carrot on the Stick – train people and pay less tax, don’t train them and pay 40%.

The issue of FIFO is complicated and different for every individual / family, however Cornflower has a very valid point in terms of infrastructure; back in the days of Hamersley Iron etc, Pilbara mining towns had a strong sense of community, structure and family lifestyle was catered for, but when you get FIFO workers, through nobodies fault, it simply isn’t possible for FIFO workers to participate / value add to local communities, most are working 12hr shifts and leisure time is spent at home, elsewhere in the country, whereas with permanent towns, governments can build the infrastructure, something Brendon Grylls is very keen to do with his Regional funding programme. As for flies, well, if you can’t put up with ‘em , you might as well leave Oz!
Cheers

*And yes, you are quite right about the requirement for trained boiler maker welders, but that is my point, if we give people a start with basic welding, then train them up and here*

Larrikan, there are indeed places in Perth training boilermaker
welders, but there are good reasons to train apprentices in the
city, rather then on a mine site. It costs a great deal to
keep people in the NW. Trade schools etc, which they need to
attend, are in the city. The list goes on. Most of the work
is in building new mine developments, its done by contractors.
They employ people. Mining companies often only employ
supervising staff and specialist staff. Engineers, geologists,
mine site managers etc. Those are the skills that we are
really short of.

There was a major report on apprenticeships in a recent AFR.
Its sounds like a huge number simply drop out after a year
or two. Perhaps we need a better system of discovering teenagers
real aptitudes, often they haven't a clue, until they try
something. Then try and see that they stick it through their
training.

*As for flies, well, if you can’t put up with ‘em , you might as well leave Oz!*

I live in the country and I know how a great many city people
react to country life. If you were correct, then a great deal
of our city slicker population would have to head overseas!

Yabby

To the contrary, wives would prefer to be with their menfolk, especially where they have young children. It is easily possible to have good child minding and school facilities and that is what concerns women most.

As for doctors, what is most needed is a health clinic - along the UK primary health care model which does not require a doctor consultation for all visits, but one available where needed. A mining operation also benefits from this resource.

The reason the big miners don't build towns any more is simply because they are calling the shots and they can get away with it, nothing more. Governments, State and federal, are gutless and short-sighted.

*To the contrary, wives would prefer to be with their menfolk, especially where they have young children.*

Cornflower, families are free to move to the NW if they wish.
There are towns, medical facilities etc. The fact is
most families choose not to do that. Many women have
careers in the city, they are not prepared to give them
up. Don't blame the miners for choices that individuals
make. I live near a town where quite a few of the inhabitants
fly in fly out. Those women have no intention of leaving
their friends and social circle, to go and live in the heat
and the dust.

Maybe you would, but then that is just you.

People do actually have a choice.

Just a small point Algore,

Corporatism grew out of Fascism - in fact Mussolini invented the very word itself.

Unlike everything else that you get worked up about, I don't think you can pin that one exclusively on those evil socialists.

Now we see the Gift of Corporatism at work using 457 Visas to import skilled staff to save money, because they don't need to train them and can dump them once the job is done -no redundancies for them here.

That's what those Visas were for - to import skilled people. It can't be in the interests of unions because it also potentially drives skilled wages down.

It's so much better than investing time and money on apprenticeships and other such socialist union scams.

what do we all think the mining tax was about. These companies avoid anything that looks like a social conscience. housing prices in mining towns are out of control so families can not afford to live there. No infrastructure has been considered for many years and training staff with responsible work place relations a joke. To really cream the cake, now that they have been called to pay for their selfishness with the tax they have launched an advertising campaign to achieve the down fall of a government. Is this not interference in the stability of a government to achieve a corporate outcome. Something stinks.

It would appear, that those with the most solutions to the mining issue are also those that have never set foot on a minesite. affirmative action programs and feelgood initiatives are simply factored into the operating costs of the mine, such as workers that dont really do anything. The plain economics of it are that it would cost more to get foreign folks in to do the tasks that nobody else will do. Drug testing, by urine sample, shows pot in your system for about 3 months. Passing drug tests is worth about an extra 50k each year.
Mines are private enterprises, operating in a free market economy. In effect what the Government wants, is all the mining companies to print up an extra 30% of total shares, and give them to the Government.

Yabby, apprenticeships are currently awarded to those who have the good fortune to have a tradesman in the family or be a good footballer. I suspect that there might be a better way too.

As for doctors not wanting to go remote, the dental surgery that I use has trouble getting dentists on the Gold Coast, because it isn't Brisbane.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vocational_education

Benk, if we look at countries like Germany or Switzerland, they
clearly have a solution, with a high % of youth doing an
apprenticeship, compared to our relative failure.

Perhaps our politicians could learn something from countries
where the system does work.

Far too many Australian schoolkids leave the system with no
qualifications.

You are right Yabby, the drop out rate is very high, as for the first time the kids must get results to pass. It is a pity our no exam school system does not prepare them for such a tough life.

This is where a good in-school apprenticeship scheme can be very helpful. Our only problem, as a near city country town, has not been finding employers who will take the kids, but lack of transport to get the kids to the workplaces.

The kids love it. For those not interested in higher education, a day out of school, doing real work is a dream come true, & they earn a little money.

The employers find which kids are worth having as full apprentices, after they finish school, & the drop out rate is much lower, as the kids know what they are getting into.

My wife on behalf of the P&C did most of the employer sourcing, & could find many more willing employers, than those of us trying to find transport could do.

When it comes to mining, it is not people with tickets they want, but those who are really good at what they do. A mate of mine, who was personal manager at Rum Jungle, & Bougainville told me years ago that he thought good drageline, & excavator operators were worth their weight in gold. Even more, he believed bulldozer drivers, & especially grader drivers were born, not trained.

He would track down the good ones, offer them a fortune, & bring them 10,000Km to get the right bloke. To get good enough might take 10 years working for a council, & even then, most wont make it.

When I was employing tourist boat skippers, I did not want foreign going masters, or tug boat skippers, I wanted people who could put a 120 Ft launch, or catamaran, gently along side a jetty, in a 25 knot wind, with a 3 knot cross current. Like grader drivers, you have to be born to do it, you don't ever learn it, if you don't have the feel.

*Like grader drivers, you have to be born to do it, you don't ever learn it, if you don't have the feel.*

Hasbeen, you make a valid point, aptitude is critical. We all have
aptitude for something, the key is recognising what it is
at an early age, that is the problem. Often kids are shoved into
some apprenticeship by well meaning parents because there is
a vacancy somewhere. Some years on and the kid gives up, because
they have neither the aptitude or enjoy what they do.

They way I see it, what we need for kids who don't want to go
on to university, is a trade school which gives kids a small
insight into the trades that are available. A place where they
can touch, feel, try with their hands in a practical way. Very
soon it would become clear who has an aptitude for what, who
enjoys what and has a passion for what. Enjoy your job and you
are halfway there, cos then you want to be there and you want to
learn. The same trade schools could then match up apprenticships
with the aptitude of their students, leading to much better
outcomes.

You mention bulldozers. I know a couple of dozer drivers, both
who battle to read or write, but they were both given a go at
learning to drive at a young age and took to it like a duck to
water. They never looked back and are now earning 6 figure
sums in the mining industry, highly valued for their skills,
still battling to read or write.

So IMHO recognising those natural aptitudes at an early age
is critical in sending teenagers down the correct career path
and it simply doesen't happen, so we have a massive learning
failure in our trades

A key reason why the drop out rate is so high amongst apprentices is that apprenticeships are so hard to get so any child who is offered one is under pressure to take it, regardless of whether or not they really like the job.

Within my state there is an abundance of apprenticeships on offer weekly, particularly within the Hairdressing, Electrical, Mechanical, Plumbing, Cabinet making and Joinery fields. It is factual that young people drop out of apprenticeships around the country, opting in many cases, to commence other apprenticeships.

Quite a few 18-22 yr olds friends with my daughter have all re-commenced apprenticeships; ie swapped one for another. Stable home lives with parents together, not into drugs, play sports, healthy etc which surprised me when some of them slogged out their first apprenticeship for 2.5 years, complained about their employers degrading them or holding them back on performing certain tasks, such as colouring in hairdressing for example.

Another 21 yr old boy [long term platonic friend of my daughter] changed from one apprenticeship to another given that his boss degraded him daily for a couple of years, underpaid him regularly, despite jobs performed brilliantly and congratulated by customers regularly. There are some horror stories circulating to date about the shocking unfair treatment of apprentices [not reported] by many young boys. These kids just keep quiet, spirits low, moving to another apprenticeship, often receiving the same degradation.

Fair rights? All the advertisements over the past few years by Government, stating that they will act and address bullying, degradation and unfair work practices and treatment is CRAP.

When I sat and listened to all of the young people who are friends with my children this year relating to their apprenticeships, my heart ached for them. I offered positive steps and support networks that will actually assist them, yet at the end of the day, their self esteem required addressing and the Bully of an Employer dealt with.

A comparison to illustrate where I am coming from regarding Apprenticeships and dropping out. There were four girls I collected at 3am today from a night out in the city. Three are apprentices. "how is your work going" I asked each, as had not seen a couple of these girls for a while. "Fiiine" they respond. Next, an avalanche of stories explode.

The first stuck to her apprenticeship and now in her 3rd year; her boss was not a bully; rather an 'Educator' and individual who allowed her staff flexibility, encouraged regularly, and rewarded their positive work and behaviour in her Salon.

The next girl Lara stated that she learned 100% more from her second boss within a few months, compared to the boss she had during her initial 3 years of her apprenticeship. The last girl stated that boss number 4 in her Apprenticeship was the best she'd had to date and would finish her apprenticeship this year; yet had decided not to practice hairdressing again. She is going to become a paramedic or something else.

What the Bosses do not comprehend is this fact. During apprentice 'tech days' to undertake their theory, many of the apprentices chat with one another about problems experienced with their Employers ie story swapping. Apprentices quickly discover after comparisons, who the Unfair/and or Bully of Employers are, and who are not. In many Apprenticeships, this results in an Apprentice finding the courage to up and leave, seeking either another Apprenticeship altogether or another Boss within the same field/apprenticeship.

Mining jobs Are to be had by all - who want them . Iwas working Incan Aboriginal community in wa when a company came through and virtually took all the non aboriginal staff mining. You need the tickets but a lot of co
panies prefer untrained because they can train you the way they want. WA is the place but enquire first.