Below is a story in the Aus that caught my eye, but may have been missed by many because of the party politics being played out in Canberra.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/higher-education/overseas-student-market-at-risk/story-e6frgcjx-1225882948204

Below is all the comments that followed

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/higher-education/overseas-student-market-at-risk/comments-e6frgcjx-1225882948204

While I realize rhat this 'industry' brings money into the country, I cannot help but think that Aussie students are missing out and there have been allegations of some places dumbing down the courses to favour students that have poor English skills. There has certainly been expectations that permanent residency would follow the completion of courses. Making it a backdoor method of migrating. There also have been allegations of rental properties being out of reach for familys because landlords can get far more rent from a lot of students than a family.

The Unis and colleges were built with our taxpayers money for the benefit of Aussies and I can accept that we allow some students in from say our Pacific neighbours and so on, but when were we asked if they could turn our Unis into a large commercial enterprizes?

Some time in the last 15 years or so, Banjo. At the time, there was a paradigm that universities could be made self-sustaining, and the income could come from HECS fees and foreign students fees.

The push for educated and skilled migration also played a part, and thus the fact that having a degree from and Australian educational institution became an advantage when applying for residency. The market signals worked and thus we had the massive increase in foreign students (and the number of places).

But fear not, the enrollment system has always been weighted towards current residents and citizens, so the only reason that our kids could not get a place that they wanted was because they were either not good enough (i.e. dumbasses with unrealistic expectations) or they decided they couldn't live on the 'Youth allowance' or Austudy payment.

'We' made universities what they are, and quite frankly, that they have to rely on foreign students income to be sustainable is shameful. Tertiary education should be increased in the budget. Yeah, right, like that's gonna happen. Some people already think they are only exist to give misandrist feminists a job.

I note a common theme going through a lot of different government schemes that have developed over the past decade. Tailoring the standard or method to meet the economic need not the quality required. It is fairly typical of the current "ME" generation problem we have in this country.
The education sector should have nothing to do with immigration. Certainly if you have a qualification from an Australian university or RTO that falls into the current scope of skills shortages in our work place, it will be a big advantage for immigration purposes. But under no circumstances should anyone come here to study under the illusion that it is a gate way to residency. This (and i say apparently as i don't have the stat's to show it) apparently has eroded the quality of education in this country. If that is so we are in dire need of a major overhall of the system.
The big question is are we prepared to make the sacrifices to achieve this. If you want education to improve the government will need to invest large amounts of money into it as the export economy in this area will fall with the tougher standards making the UNI's less sustainable under their own income capacities.
The same can be seen in the environment debate. We all want change but we sure as hell don't want to pay for it. No ETS, no carbon tax just let business do it rationally. The only rational thing business will do is make profits for share holders. They will do this with the minimum of expense and they don't care about the national interest. I have no problem with that as that is what they are there for. But if you want standards maintained with a conscience about how that is achieved you have to pay. That means more taxes, less mega profits, a super system that isn't a lotto scheme and an attitude toward the development of the country that puts the outcome and standard first then tailors the economics to fit the need.

I think that Australians are benefiting from the large numbers of international students on our University campuses. The course fees from these students are helping Universities to build more facilities and employ more staff. Local and international students build cross-cultural friendships, and this has a positive effect on building international understanding. Learning and practicing cross-cultural communication helps to prepare students for work in our globalized economy. Finally, as someone involved in teaching these students at University, I can say that we are working to build the academic and literacy skills of all students, rather than dumbing down our courses.

I hope that the problem of immigration rorts can be solved, but we could benefit from more international students, not less.

A most interesting thread.

Banjo says://there have been allegations of some places dumbing down the courses to favour students that have poor English skills.//

Bugsy says: //We' made universities what they are, and quite frankly, that they have to rely on foreign students income to be sustainable is shameful. //

Nairbe says: //Tailoring the standard or method to meet the economic need not the quality required. //

But EXPAT manager .... has a different direction:

//The course fees from these students are helping Universities to build more facilities and employ more staff. //

I'm not so sure about that Expat.... from the other comments it seems more likely that they are reliant now....on foreign fees just to survive, let alone expand.

But as to the first 3 comments.. Nairbe gets it best I think "the ME generation".... yep.. concur.

But more... this whole mentality is going to destroy us.. but.. like smoking and cancer, it doesn't happen 5minutes after your first smoke.

We are facing that dark side of the human condition..selfishness.. otherwise called 'original sin'...

Imagine this. Standing outside (in my case) the local Kenworth Factory which regularly has strikes.. (but not during a strike).. with a large poster of a noticably Chinese man with a caption "Strike more..me want u job" and a nice map of china on the poster.

Or

"EACH TIME YOU STRIKE
CHINA COMES CLOSER"

I don't think it would go down that well with unionists..but, like the smoking/cancer thing... the causal link is sure.

Given that I don't know anyone ever elected to Union leadership on a platform of "I'll keep your wages the same..and give you job security"

It seems that our economic self destruction is assured...and..its our own stupid fault.

Hey Al, if your going to do the poster bit i want to be there to film it. Your right on with that, we don't seem to realise we create most of our own problems.

Bugsy,
I don't recall ever being asked about overseas students. It is one thing to invite some students from small neighbouring countries but an entirely different matter to turn our UNis into vast commercial enterprizes. The large influx from overseas has ramifacations right throughout the connunity and not all are good things. They are allowed to work and that has an impact on jobs availability. They impact on the rental market, on transport and so on.

Frankly if large countries like China and India can find the money for large militaries and nuclear weapons, I do not see any reason they cannot provide their own education needs. As for skilled immigration, we should be training our own and not poaching the skilled from other poorer countries. Where is the morallity in that.

The changes in Unis have simply been imposed, like high immigration and multiculturalism, we were never properly informed or consulted.

I do not expect community consultation about every little thing the governments do but, I expect proper information be given where the social and economic impacts are to be great. This seems to be one of those issues.

Despite assurances to the contrary, I still see our own students disadvantaged, if for nothing else, due to restricted intake and larger class sizes, etc.

It's always useful to get another perspective
on a topic:

http://www.refugeeaction.org/deportation/Indian.htm

"Indian student billed $97,000 for detention in Baxter."

Banjo
"I don't recall ever being asked about overseas students."
Oh boohoo.
"I do not expect community consultation about every little thing the governments do",
but it sure sounds like it.

Banjo, I think you under a serious misapprehension as to the role of universities in society. They not merely vocational training centres, they are much more than that.

We invite students from all over the world to study at our universities and have always done. This invitation to study is reciprocated by pretty much all other universities around the world. We aren't poaching skilled immigrants from poorer countries, we are training them here. Many of them go home, believe it or not.

The simple policy change that started all of this was widely accepted, and you wouldn't have thought that it was important to you at the time anyway.

And Boazy/Al, I think that if we rely on foreign students for sustainability of our tertiary education institutions is shameful because I don't see any of you blowhards advocating more core funding in the federal and state budgets for research and teaching in the Tertiary education sector. Unis have made up the shortfall by taking in full fee students from overseas and the government has encouraged this by making it an attractive option for the students in order to avoid having to pay more for educating our kids.

Many Australian universities also offer programmes offshore through private providers many of of whom selct students who have not matriuculated into their local universities (e.g. NUS, HKU). These providers compete for the students by offering less challenging VET programmes with the understanding of advanced entry 2nd and 3rd year entry into Australian universities courses, after-which there is pressure on the lecturers to soft mark the students. Private providers also exist within Australia competing against TAFE. The linch-pin in these unsatisfactory arrangements often is commerically driven Faculty Deans. Pehaps, some the problems are founded a few decades ago when CAEs were merged into universities. While some transitions have worked, many have not. Herein, we have senior academics, who were in the right place at the right time, having little, if any, commercial experience and not coming from unverisity (scholarly) earlier careers. Herein, maintaining standards is a challenge, because to address academic issues runs against the goals of international students, deans and the commercial aspirations of the universities.

Many Asians have joint citizenship with Canada and Australia. Others
take on US citizenship. A patriarch will send the childed to these Western countries. Protecting the family and building family wealth would seem to be a prime aspiration overriding nationalistic feelings towards their country of birth or their secondary country.

It always intrigues me when people who obviously know very little about universities pontificate about how they should be run. For example, I doubt very much that either Banjo or Boazy have ever actually studied at one.

Bugsy's quite right of course. For a couple of decades now Australian universities have increasingly been forced to generate income from overseas students, commercial partnerships and fees from domestic students, because successive governments of both persuasions have starved them of funds. In the case of overseas students, this has generally taken the form of an expansion of foreign enrolments that have always constituted a proportion of the overall student intake.

Under such commercialism, there undoubtedly have been cases where some universities have come under pressure to 'dumb down' courses for their fee-paying 'customers', but that applies equally to domestic students. I vividly recall the changed attitudes of Australian students back in the early 90s when HECS was introduced - there was an apparent sense of entitlement to pass subjects for which students would have to pay fees, even though many were just not up to scratch.

I also recall suggesting to more than one such student that they should perhaps take up a trade, rather than pursue a university course for which they were not equipped.

On the subject of vocational education, there clearly has been a fair amount of rorting by some of the shonky 'colleges' that sprang up over the past decade or so. However, I think that much of that is a product of the idiotic nexus between studying (anything apparently) in Australia and permanent residency, which was just a recipe for corruption.

P.S. Boazy - what on earth does your silly rant about unions have to do with the topic?

Hi Nairbe :) I might just take you up on that ... it's not easy to find people with the 'testicles' to front up and put their lives on the line. You can vid from a save distance mate :) but if I do it.. I'll see if I can find someone closer first.. but cheers anyhow.

Dear Watermelon..(I mean CJ :)
What do Union activities have to do with to topic ?

Well..they are just another segment of the communities whic Unions try to politicize. Hence they are relevant to the overall 'overseas students' thing.

Bugsy says:

"because I don't see any of you blowhards advocating more core funding in the federal and state budgets for research and teaching in the Tertiary education sector."

Fair point Bugsy.. but it might be deeper than you imagine?

Why would the government cut funding to Universities?
-Which side of politics initiated this?
-Did the 'other' side of politics make any substantial change ?
-If not..why not?

Could it be that we are simply spending more than we earn ? Have been for too long and now that we've sold off just about everything we can for short term debt servicing.... nothing more to sell to maintain our over consuming lifestyle which of course includes 'higher education'.....

So.. I'd be happy to have a debate about the real causes of such budget cuts.. and if you have any information about it.. by all means share it with us.

I imagine that they weighed up like this "Left hand....Public health"..right hand... "Higher Education"...hmmm... then made a decision they believed would keep them in power...

The plain simple fact is.. we have been, are and will continue to live beyond our means until the money and credit runs out.

When that point is reached.. we will see *many disturbing things* happen..most of which I've alluded to over the years

PS..watch your grammar.. CJ will be on your case :) 6th line of ur last post.

So you acknowledge that you don't have a clue about the topic, Boazy? Par for the course, I'm afraid.

Why did you call me a "Watermelon"? I didn't say anything at all in my only other comment in this thread that could be construed as remotely "green" or "red".

CJ Morgan,

Yes, I agree with you, there can be a sense of entitlement over passing subjects and also grades received. This situation applying to domestic students too. On the subject of "shonky" providers, I actually wrote warning sumission to the Minister years before the domestic situation or the Uniiversity of Newcastle offshore provider plagiary debacle.

Dear George,

In my 26 June post, I was trying to demonstrate that I am am willing to to apply the same methodology to some aspects of QM, as I do religion. Herei, I a try to be consistent.

The notion of faith as a practised skill is interesting and does fit in with the Huntington Post article to some degree. If one does belie someting that if false in a time when folk generally know no better than I would not call that a delusion. One the other hand, remaining circumscribed might increase the likeihood of confronting reinforcement schedules embedding non-facts.

Perhaps, it is drawing a long bow, but, the willingness to stay put, in one's home, and not trek the marketplace, does have micmic agoraphobia, to the degree believer does not go "outside". Albeit, generally, I would be disinclined to categorise religionists under the DSM IV.

I do reflect on what you cite in leiu of the systematic case. Thanks. However, it would seem logical to consider the existence of God "before" adopting a specific god.

Regarding Bohr's cited statement on the Copenhagen interpretation; on "phenomena", McFadden adds:

"Phenomena are the interaction between quantum objects and measuring devices. No independent relity is attributed to indepenedent quantum objects. There is no such thing as an electron or photon in the absence of measurement - they do not exist. The fundamental units of our existence are not atoms, electrons or photons but phenomena."

As with (alleged) heaven and earth, there is a need to see a demarcation between the real and quasi-real realms.

Please excuse mispost. Unitended.

We have created a minefield and many academics continue to face pressure to pass students who would otherwise fail. When education became a commercial venture, we lost all credibility in becoming the mooted 'clever country'.

One of the issues is lack of English skills not only in regard to International Students but at some universities there are now remedial type English classes for local students because the standard is so low.

How does any student gain entry into a university when they have poor command of the language?

http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2007/s1852629.htm

The evidence that education is being dumbed down is all around us.

We made a big mistake when we turned colleges of advanced education into universities. Education is not just about research and academia but about appropriate skills and vocational training - not all of it requiring university status. Tiered education to suit is best IMO.

We are all buying into the aspirational mantra that pervades currently, all which demeans any job or occupation that does not require a Degree or more. This adds to the difficulty in finding young people to do work once considered entry level.

This does not mean we don't aspire to high levels of literacy and numeracy but we should not be fooled into confusing mass access to education (without merit) with being 'educated'.

pelican,

I fully agree with the CAEs should not have been gone. Moreover, there are too many universities for a country of Australia's size.

A problem complementing poor English is plagiary.

Banjo wrote 25 June 2010 8:15:33 PM:

>... there have been allegations of some places dumbing down the courses to favour students that have poor English skills. ...

I teach International students at the Australian National University. This includes an online e-learning course on Green ICT: http://cs.anu.edu.au/courses/COMP7310/

My students can be from anywhere in the world. The issue I have had to deal with is not so much poor English skills, as poor skills in formal academic writing. This is dealt with by referring students to the ANU Academic Skills & Learning Centre for assistance: https://academicskills.anu.edu.au/

Each university has an academic skills centre, to help the staff and students. It should be noted it is not just international students who have difficulty with written work. Students doing technical courses, such as computing, have difficulty expressing themselves. The solution is to teach them technical writing, get them to write and make it part of the assessment.

I discussed some of this in "Online education requires more than technological innovation", Onine Opinion, 15 March 2001: http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=982

Since then, the federal government has invested in IT support for education. However, online education and its effect on international student numbers is an issue which the Australian education system has yet to come to grips with. I will be discussing some of this at the Moodle Moot in Melbourne in July: http://moodlemoot.org.au/course/view.php?id=44 and at the World Computer Congress in Brisbane in September: http://www.wcc2010.org/content/industry-speakers

ps: My book on Green IT, used in online courses is at: http://www.tomw.net.au/green/

tomw,

The issue is broader than technical writing, as buliding arguments requires sound written expression. The synthesis of themes seems to especially challenging for some students. Organising thoughts and presenting comments in logical fashion is often a challenge for internatinal students.

Personally, I prefer grade students higher that make it only 70% the way on developing an original concept than I do students who simply return 100% of basic expectations.

In Asia, as an Academic Director over three varied academic schools, I found students excellent at subjects like Economics and Accounting, but challenged by Philosophy and Pychology. I think it all goes back to being guided through rather than particupating in their own secondary education. An absence or quiry based learning,

Also, what can happen might not be best destribed as dumbing, rather, teaching towards notes and expections. The students faithfully reproduce what is expected but are not encouraged (and maybe can't) value add. Herein, we have a CBT excerise. not tertiary scholarship.

Maybe we should hand over part of the Australian medical services to vendors to supply their skills to overseas visitors as well.

The difference between tax payer subsidised and a commercial system

The tax payer expects the beneficiary to be the tax payer, not some alien who has contributed nothing to the fabric and infrastructure.

Of course, a commercial system is solely between the vendor and the consumer of the service and does not need the nanny hand holding of government to intervene for people who should not necessarily expect the protections available to Australian nationals.

Oliver wrote 28 June 2010 4:25:54 PM:

>tomw, The issue is broader than technical writing, as buliding arguments requires sound written expression. The synthesis of themes ...

My students are writing reports on how to reduce the carbon emmissions of real organisations. In some cases the students are living on small islands under threat of indundation from climate change, so these are not abstract techncial issues for them.

>In Asia, as an Academic Director over three varied academic schools, I found students excellent at subjects like Economics and Accounting, but challenged by Philosophy and Pychology. ...

I find the techincal students, wherever they are from, have difficulty with non-techncial subjects. I teach web ethics to ANU students and they have real difficulty with issues of life and death which can result from the failure of computer systems.

>Also, what can happen might not be best destribed as dumbing, rather, teaching towards notes and expections. ...

Yes, I find it useful to set real world problems, such as to do with carbon emissions in the student's own workplace (most have jobs) or on what to do with an emergency web based system which lives depend on.

Comments have been interesting.

Notice that the heds of Unis are still advocating 'pathways to residency', so maybe we will hear more about this in future.

I am still hopefull of being able to compliment this government for doing, at least, one thing right which is stopping the immigration rorts through the education system.

In my experience as a lecturer, courses are 'dumbed down' to accommodate local students just as much as international students. As the percentage of the Australian population who pursue a University degree increases, Universities have to cater for people who, in some cases, barely pass high school. To put it bluntly, Universities now have to cater for the 'academically challenged'. Actually I think Universities are handling this quite well by increasing learning support for students and integrating the teaching of academic skills into the curriculum.

expatmanger,

Yes, the universities have improved support and empathy. I recall some decades ago as an undergrad at the University of Sydney being one of about five people taking Economics who had not studied the subject in High School, being told to read the entire Samuelson (very thick) textbook, "you have two weeks to catch-up". Perhaps, now we are at the other pole. Goldilocks is somewhere in between. We need to nurture autonomy, critical thinking and the ability to synthesize information, however, we don't want folk to be stranded.