So Yabby you think this comes down to a choice between the value of labour and the value of pensions? You are arguing with someone who does not think retirement security should rest solely with the ebb and flow of the private sector. Certainly not while cowboys have unfettered free range in the markets.

Political greed is the same as economic greed, in fact they are entwined but the strings are usually held by the big players - you only have to look at the pressure on government in regard to mining taxes. It will come down to blackmail and threats as usual, and government willpower will no doubt crumble under that pressure.

Examinator's point is valid - the customer (and the employee) are at the bottom of the food chain in the current equation.

*So Yabby you think this comes down to a choice between the value of labour and the value of pensions?*

No, I am saying that they both have to be considered. That is exactly
what we do, with our present system.

*You are arguing with someone who does not think retirement security should rest solely with the ebb and flow of the private sector.*

Pelican, if you prefer to trust the promises of some politician,
that in 25 years he will look after you, go for it lol. Some of
us don't have your faith in the State and also take note of the
State pointing out, that they simply won't have the money. So
we provision for our own retirement. Those bank, mining and other
company profits and dividends sent out, are real money!

Besides, if the private sector should collapse, so would the Govt,
as they would not have an income and people would not have jobs.

*you only have to look at the pressure on government in regard to mining taxes*

I should hope that they are pressured, for we are not all yet slaves
of the State and Kevie's powers end at Australia's borders. Investment
money will simply go off shore, if its not wanted here, or people try
to use it, to enhance their own political power. A belief in fairness
is fundamental in life.

*Examinator's point is valid*

Nope its not valid. For any businessman who knows a thing about
business will tell you that the customer votes with his wallet,
so take notice of what they want, or they will go elsewhere.

Apple is not having the huge success that it is, because it is
producing products that consumers don't want to buy. Steve Jobs
has a knack of predicting and creating what consumers will want
and their sales figures show he is correct.

Yabby, "Cornflour, targets are set by boards and they are answerable to
shareholders. The largest sharedholers are superfunds, who hold shares
on behalf of everyday people like yourself and Examinator"

Yet some of those large super funds have made exactly the same comments as I did.

Dear Examy,

I can't complain about customer service.
In my dealings with Telstra I've never had
a problem. Sure, they post notices on my
email, leave messages on my mobile, but
I usually don't pay that much attention
to them, I just delete them.

As for phone calls, have you had the persistence
of "India calling?" We even resorted to tell
them that the person they want to speak to is
in a nursing home, but they still keep calling,
so I just ask them to hold the line, walk away,
and leave them hanging and waiting, until they
eventually hang up.

Another alternative is of course, always leave the
answering machine on. When they hear the message
bank, they hang up.

However, with Telstra, I often ring up for technical
assistance on my computer, and I never have any
problems. The guys even ring back to see if everything's
working at a later time.

I'm usually very grateful for any assistance given,
I've very rarely had problems in my
dealings with people. Be it with Telstra,
Australain Government Agencies, other large regional
libraries, City Councils, University Departments,
or even theatre ticket outlets, supermarkets,
post offices, or medical facilities.
Staff usually are very co-operative and genuinely
try to help.

Yabby
My faith in the State is probably on close examination, not much different to yours. It really boils down to how strong is one's faith in the private markets to sort things out to a win-win situation.

At least with the State there are some guarantees and some accountability (even if only at election time if they stuff things beyond the point of no return).

The point is, customer service in many cases is not viewed as a worthy factor in competition for the reasons already outlined. For competition there has to be a choice, when there is not much to distinguish the players, competition is removed.

I would like to have your faith in the private sector, but historically they fall short as well but with far less accountability and no strength from ASIC or ACC often to ensure the rules are observed.

It is getting the mix right between private and public - tip the scales too much one way or the other has not worked well in any nation as yet which is why Australia despite its faults does not do too badly as a Social Democracy. What is concerning is we are moving more away from those ideals - ideals expoused once even by the Liberal Party. Customer service is one of the casualties that is really all I am saying.

*Apparently Four Corners tonight is doing something about the failure of the banking industry in the US. Worth a watch especially for those who think the system is working.*

Pelican, I watched that programme. There was not alot new, as I'd
seen the original Levin interrogation of Goldman on Bloomberg, it
ran for some hours.

It seems to me that the word "bank" confuses alot of people, for
of course so called investment banks are not actually banks and
they are generally unregulated, as distinct from savings banks, which
are heavily regulated.

What constantly amazes me, is how trusting of the "system" that
people are, then they are amazed when they get burned. Its very
sad, it really is.

There is no way that an ACC or similar can protect people from all
those sharks out there. I certainly don't trust financial advisors,
for they are paid commissions and its naive to think that people won't
act out fo self interest.

I felt really sorry for Margie Parkes the artist, but when people
invest in hedge funds and similar, they really are playing with fire.

Its not just finance, for if people go and invest in antiques, art,
persian carpets, houses or anything really and don't know what they
are doing, somebody is bound to rip them off.

So how do we teach people to be more skeptical and less trusting?
I really don't know, for it seems that they only seem to learn,
once they have been burnt.

Its been my experience that those who get burned are often greedy,
believing stories about super returns etc.

I tend to stick with direct investments in top 200 ASX listed
companies, which are poured over daily by analysts and if they
even fart, it is reported. So the scrutiny is huge, but they
are everyday companies on which most of us rely on, in our daily
transactions. The big banks, the big miners, the big retailers etc.
The idea is to pay attention to what mommy said and not put all your
eggs in one basket either.