The American Academy of Pediatrics:
"Recommends that its members actively seek to dissuade families from carrying out harmful forms of FGC." 26 April 2010
What does this mean?
"Most forms of FGC are decidedly harmful, and pediatricians should decline to perform them, even in the absence of any legal constraints. However, the ritual nick suggested by some pediatricians is not physically harmful and is much less extensive than routine newborn male genital cutting. There is reason to believe that offering such a compromise may build trust between hospitals and immigrant communities, save some girls from undergoing disfiguring and lifethreatening procedures in their native countries, and play a role in the eventual eradication of FGC. It might be more effective if federal and state laws enabled pediatricians to reach out to families by offering a ritual nick as a possible compromise to avoid greater harm."
http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/reprint/peds.2010-0187v1.pdf
In short, the AAP recommends "ritual nicking" to those seeking FGM for their daughter.
I can and can't believe that this is happening in the West.
I can believe it because it seems a logical extension of multicultural madness.
I can't believe it because I hoped I was wrong on where this madness is leading.
But there you have it.
An association dedicated to caring for children is recommending that its practitioners harm children, as a sop to multiculturalism.
Are we going down the wrong track or is this progress?

Well it is not progress Proxy as one would assume. The only way I can see this in a positive light (positive may be the wrong word) is that it puts these practices in the hands of trained surgeons rather than backyard mutilators. But it isn't good enough - what an awful state of affairs for the child in either scenario.

Male circumcision is equally as unnecessary and has also been carried out in the West.

It is disgraceful that these practices are still condoned. I believe FGM has nothing to do with religious practices more to do with primitive partriarchies with medieval attitudes towards women's sexuality.

The sheding of blood uas required for the covering of sin. God killed an animal to provide a covering for Adam and Eve Gen 3-21. In Gen 22 God provided the lamb for the offering and instatuted the blessing to all who believe and obey. The Circumcism was initated by God to seal the covernant he made with Abraham to bless him and his decendants if they listened and obeyed in Gen 17 with the sheding of blood. In this age God has decreed a new and much better covernent with the sheding of the blood of his son Jesus. The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world so the sheding of our childrens blood is no longer required as God imparts the blessing as we believe and be baptised Mark 16-16 and Col 2-11.So childrens circumcisim in this modern age is not a requirement of God but the tradition of man and unless done for health reasons avails nothing lasting. Ps one of the ways of identifying a cult is the requirement of the sheding of blood. For God so Loved us that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3-16 So if we believe and obey God cuts his covernant with us in the waters of baptism today not in a circumcism made with human hands. Impossible for man. Possible for God. God Is good Mat 19-17.

Proxy,

The suggestion that a "ritual nick" is done is not a procedure supported by the academy, rather a discussion point in extreme circumstances where the alternative is the parents taking the child back for the "authentic treatment" in their home countries.

This is a similar dilemma to:

If you could, would it be morally acceptable to kill Hitler before he rose to power?

This practice is barbaric and should be outlawed in all decent countries.
Never mind if I could kill hitler, this practice is equivalent of placing a burqua on the girls head and nailing it there.
Totally barbaric.

I have recently had a young Samoan man working for me. He is going to need some time off shortly because he is the first-born boy in his family and tradition dictates that he must submit to being tattooed - starting at his waist and continuing over every inch of skin down to his mid-thigh. It's been modified - the orginal requirement covered the full legs.

I myself was circumcised as a child.

Where is the chorus of indignation at these practises?

I suppose I have to say that I don't condone the practice of FGM or I'll have the usual mental midgets accusing me of wanting to slash clitorises all over the place. I find that quite tedious.

Proxy,

Are you outraged that the AAP suggest that "only
pricking or incising the clitoral skin as sufficient to satisfy cultural requirements" by a medical practitioner should be legal to prevent anything from a cliterectomy to infibulation? Or is this just an attempt to gather more evidence that we are allowing the dreaded Islamic hordes free reign and demonstrating the evils of multiculturalism?

Why not outrage that Samoans must get tattooed or that people can get their children's ears pierced? Both these are purely cultural harm (ie. no medical potential benefit cf. immunisation), are more severe in damage and perfectly legal.

Sorry to be suspicious minded but I can't help wondering if the prick or nick is your main concern.

You've outed him mjpb.

>>Or is this just an attempt to gather more evidence that we are allowing the dreaded Islamic hordes free reign and demonstrating the evils of multiculturalism?<<

Proxy starts these threads for exactly that purpose.

He tried it with http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=3614, but instead of expressing horror at the presence of Islam on a UN committee, the posters insisted on talking about wimminz issues.

He tried to bring it back on track here http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=3614#86794, but it slipped away from him again.

That must have been frustrating for him, so he started this one.

Don't tell him we're onto his little game though, will you?

mjpb,
<<Sorry to be suspicious minded but I can't help wondering if the prick or nick is your main concern.>>
It's all the pricks that concern me.

Anti: "Where is the chorus of indignation at these practises? "

There is, but this thread was about FGM. If you start a thread about the forced tatooing of children or male circumcision I am sure the outrage will be plentiful even for you.

Thanks for acknowledging that women and girls should not have to endure this practice, even if it was not immediately obvious at the beginning of your post.

I don't know where Proxy expected this thread to go by Putting a US discussion paper forward that recomends education.

I am more interested in FGM here in Aus and i can tell you that we have been doing the education bit for 16 years and the incidence is reportedly higher now, so education is not working if we wish to stop the practice.

Ok it is illegal in all states but no charges have ever ben made. When I asked the health Minister that she replied that there are 'cultural considerations'. I find it ridiculous that people are charged with cock fighting offences, a cultural activity, but no one is charged for mutilating little Aussie girls. The practice is barbaric and should be stopped now.

Do we need a girl to die from shock, bleeding or infection before something is done.

My lobbying to MPs has been on two fronts. (a) Charge the parents with child abuse, and (b) Stop immigration of those cultures that practice FGM.

It should be intolerable that we turn a blind eye. Did not the PM say some time back about something. "To do nothing is to condone it".

If we continue as we are in relation to FGM, some advocate will be saying that as we do not enforce the laws we condone it should remove the laws making it illegal. Is that what we want?

Banjo,
Good on you for actually doing something about this issue.
I agree with both your points:
(a) Charge the parents with child abuse, and
(b) Stop immigration of those cultures that practice FGM.
I would add:
(c) Deport those found to be taking part in this barbarism.
I believe that the message would soon get through.
However, I fear that champions of "human rights" would soon hop on the bandwagon to stop the laws being enforced.
But where are all the HR chumps now?
My guess is that they're paralysed by cognitive dissonance.
Admitting that FGM is a problem would challenge their core beliefs on cultural relativism.

Proxy,
We cannot deport Australian citizens. The most we can do to citizens is to impose stiff penalties that could include the removal of the mutilated child.

In relation to those of permanent resident status, the laws are very specific about deportation. Basicly, I think, a crime has to be committed that gets a penalty of 2 years Jail. Even then some have had the courts overule the deportation.

Most parents that are currently carrying out FGM on their daughters are citizens. In fact I have been informed that women that had FGM done to them as girls here, are now having their own daughters done.

Cultural practices are difficult to change by education

Dear Bango, Sounds like Australia is between a rock an a hard place as only the truth you know sets you free and as a nation we reject the truth as an option and nothing else works.

Pelican:"There is, but this thread was about FGM. "

Actually, I've never read or heard a single word condemning those traditional tattoos as barbaric or suggesting that they should be banned. Occasionally someone will say something about male circumscision, but rarely.

The combination of traditional practise with Islam seems to be a terrible provocation to some.

Proxy,

Your comments "(b) Stop immigration of those cultures that practice FGM.
I would add: (c) Deport those found to be taking part in this barbarism."

Show that your concern is really a pretext for bigotry.

Anti

>> Actually, I've never read or heard a single word condemning those traditional tattoos as barbaric or suggesting that they should be banned. <<

As Pelican stated - there is nothing to prevent you from starting a topic regarding traditional tattooing.

>> Occasionally someone will say something about male circumscision, but rarely. <<

This topic is presented regularly, however, again you are an independent adult, start a topic about that as well.

Back to Topic.

Banning cultures wherein a small percentage indulge in FGM is not going to solve the problem either here in Australia or in the countries of origin. What is required here, is enacting the laws against such abuse (as was noted, people are charged for arranging dog and cock fights). And to support world wide campaigns such as those by Amnesty International decrying the abuse of women and children.

Banjo

Your lobbying is an excellent example of what is required. There is nothing to prevent, in this day of instant communication, any of us expressing concern to our local leaders as well as those in other countries.

Shadow Minister,
My broad concern is the introduction into Australia of dysfunctional "cultures",
as I believe it is counter to Australia's long-term interests.
FGM is just one of the many pathologies which some of these "cultures" bring along as baggage.
It just so happens that one particular "culture" brings with it so many pathologies
that the costs far outweigh the benefits, which are.....

(Brief benefit/cost analysis)

Benefits:
making progressives feel good about themselves,
falafels,
uum...
nearly forgot "diversity"!
uum...

Costs/pathologies:
honour killings,
terrorist threats,
terrorist acts,
female genital mutilation,
inhumane halal slaughtering,
ghettoisation,
welfare dependence/fraud,
high incarceration rates,
polygamy,
segregated prayer rooms (in universities!),
letterbox "ladies" robbing banks,
threats to free speech,
death threats to cartoonists, publishers, authors, film makers,
attempted murders of cartoonists (Westergaard),
murders of film makers (van Gogh),
beheading of infidels (Pearl),
etc, etc

Which rational country would invite these sorts of problems to its shores?
The answer is simple for those who will clear the scales from their eyes.

"“All the jurisprudents, since the advent of Islam and for 14 centuries or more, are in consensus that female circumcision is permitted by Islam. But they were divided with regard to its status in shari’a. Some said that female circumcision is required by shari’a, just like male circumcision. Some said this is the mainstream practice, while others said it is a noble act. But throughout the history of Islam, nobody has ever said that performing female circumcision is a crime. There has been a religious ruling on this for 14 centuries.”
Muhammad Al-Mussayar, Islamic scholar at Al-Azhar University,
the most prestigious and influential institution in the Islamic world"
http://biggovernment.com/pgeller/2010/05/10/sanctioning-barbarity-american-academy-of-pediatrics-and-the-new-york-times/

Severin,
The reason I advocate stopping the immigration of the people of those cultures that practice FGM is that I believe new arrivals 'refresh' the cultural practice and thwart or efforts to eliminate it.

I think the same applies to other alien cultural issues. Take the extreme hatred that exists between the Croats and Serbs as an example. That type of hatred is totally alien to us and as fast as our society begins to water the hatred down, new arrivals refresh the old hatreds. This is even more so when we have multicultural advocates preaching that it is fine for immigrants to carry on their former cultures. It seems that MC advocates do not see the baggage of some cultures or if they do, they accept it and expect us to accomodate it.

There are some alien cultural aspects we should never accept and FGM is one of the foremost. Sadly it appears that our politicians and the public turn a blind eye and condone FGM.

The malevolent affliction of torture, abuse and mutilation based assault against children is the mainstay of your cowardly and diseased australian society. The torture of children by mutilating their genitals is performed for the SOLE purpose of adults enjoying inflicting serious harm of children, while at the same time using the ritual as a smoke-screen to delude themselves that they are morally decent and somehow not harming children.

Mutilating the gentitals of children is sick, insane and obviously child abuse, yet you all "debate" the matter as if there is anything left to decide.

This is another PROOF that australian society decrees children to be sub-human abuse slaves. All one has to do is ask "would an adult who was grabbed of the street and forced to have his genitals mutilated be seen the same way?"

For more information on the Truth, visit www.Truthmedia.8k.com

I note that with the arrival of "Seer Travis", this thread has finally reached its target market.

Congratulations Proxy. Your devotion to anti-Islamic rhetoric has finally paid off.

Pericles,
It will take me some time to look at your arguments, analyse the pros and cons of your refutations and follow your logic to see how you've come to your interesting conclusions.
I'll get back to you.

Pericles,

I don't know what to say about that situation but the original theory does not seem to have been debunked. I sure hope your wrong because Proxy would have a very enthusiastic supporter if you are right.

Seer Travis,

I have a feeling that we won't fully relate to each others perspective but perhaps I could understand yours better if it was unpacked more.

You appear to be rather negative about psychiatrists, lawyers, and the family unit. I am curious as to how you think things should be. Is there any country that you think would be a good role model and if so why?

You are critical of the discssion to date. You do realize that noone condones FGM? Some express a helplessness in trying to get action. However if children were dragged off the street and subject to FGM I doubt there would be any problem getting officials to take action. Only a tiny proportion of parents would enjoy harming their children. Irrespective of religion I'm sure parents virtually universally want to protect their kids from harm. The problem is those who don't view it that way and instead believe it to be a religious obligation.

In any case as I have said I suspect protecting daughters isn't the motive of this thread.

mjpb,
<<Irrespective of religion I'm sure parents virtually universally want to protect their kids from harm. The problem is those who don't view it that way and instead believe it to be a religious obligation.
In any case as I have said I suspect protecting daughters isn't the motive of this thread.>>
The motive of this thread was to draw attention to the problem of our society increasingly accommodating dysfunctional "cultural" practices as the seemingly inevitable result of our bizarre multicultural policies.
The first part of your quote above, funnily enough, draws attention to another "cultural practice" I have mentioned earlier: honour killing. A practice that is also gaining a foothold in the West as a result of slavish adherence to flawed policy.
There is a remarkably simple answer to these problems and,
as previously noted, it is not education.

>Seer Travis,
That is an acceptable way to address Me.

>I have a feeling that we won't fully relate to each others >perspective but perhaps I could understand yours better if it was >unpacked more.
There is plenty of information at My website, and you can email Me from there with any further requests for lengthy analysis of any issue, or ask any question. You will ALWAYS receive the ultimate answer if I deem you mail worthy of a reply.

>You appear to be rather negative about psychiatrists, lawyers, and >the family unit.

I am not "negative", I simply reveal the Forbidden Truth on these matters in an objective and impartial manner.

>I am curious as to how you think things should be.Is there any >country that you think would be a good role model and if so why?
There has never been a single legitimate Truth-based human society in all of history. That is because all societal leaders wield their power via pandering to the mental diseases and psychological weaknesses inherent in human beings.

In the limited space here, society should be based on Truth.

>You are critical of the discssion to date. You do realize that noone >condones FGM?
No, it is a wide-spread practice that is supported and facilitated by society. Of course, the citizen-slaves psychologically need to delude themselves that they are moral and decent, and may actually believe they are for eradicating such a practice. Most humans are not legitimately against such practices. There are some who are against it for real, but not many.

>Some express a helplessness in trying to get action.
Society has brainwashed you all to feel helpless and powerless.

PART II forthcoming....

>However if children were dragged off the street and subject to FGM I >doubt there would be any problem getting officials to take action.

Correct. That is because of the insane societal decree that children are the "property" and child-slaves of their parent slave-owners. When a adult does the EXACT SAME ACTION to a child that is a "stranger", then society would charge this victim-creation with illegitimate criminal charges.

However, children are already imprisoned and subjected to mutilation every day with full legal and cultural societal support simply because they happen to be the biological creator of that child. This is the insane hypocrisy of society at work.

>Only a tiny proportion of parents would enjoy harming their children.
Incorrect. Nearly all parents harm their children. The question is to what extent. You fail to realize the Truth that this enjoyment is subconscious, having been suppressed because of the self-deluding need of the citizen-slaves to pretend they are morally decent and sane.

>Irrespective of religion I'm sure parents virtually universally want >to protect their kids from harm. The problem is those who don't view >it that way and instead believe it to be a religious obligation.
Wrong. The family unit is DESIGNED deliberately to harm children, and parents use this societal offering to gain cathartic release by abusing children.

>In any case as I have said I suspect protecting daughters isn't the >motive of this thread.
Of course it is not.

For more information visit www.Truthmedia.8k.com

My what a megative twisted kingdom you lot live in where most parents would harm their children where the lust of the flesh is worshiped, death to be welcomed, children divorce their parents, children sacreficed to the lust for money, where greed is honoured, lies put forward rather than the truth. Have any of you ever thought who who is the piper you follow. As for me and my house love rules and Jesus is our King, and his will & testiment is our inheritance.

Sorry, Proxy. I simply don't believe you.

>>The motive of this thread was to draw attention to the problem of our society increasingly accommodating dysfunctional "cultural" practices as the seemingly inevitable result of our bizarre multicultural policies.<<

The motive of this thread was to give you a platform from which to promulgate your fear and loathing of Islam.

You are fooling no-one.

No! Well he had me fooled, anyway ;)

Pericles,

"Fear and loathing" is a perfectly rational response to Islam.
At least you didn't say Muslims. I am able to separate the two.
My concern is as I stated.
The declining state of Europe due to the ascendant influence of Islam is empirically observable.
I don't want my children, or any future Australians, to inherit those problems.
Maybe you need to study Islam a bit more and get out of the multicultural lemming mindset.

I quote from Vijay Kumar:

"America was conceived as a free constitutional republic that is of the people, by the people, and for the people. Islam was conceived as a totalitarian theocracy that is of Islam, by Islam, and for Islam. The Quran is the antithesis of the United States Constitution. They are ideological opposites of each other in their most basic purposes and goals.

The purpose of our Constitution is to secure and guarantee to all people the greatest possible freedom. The purpose of Islam is for all people to submit to Islam, and only Islam-not just spiritually, but politically and secularly, in every aspect of law and life.

Our constitutional republic is built upon the foundation of separation of church and state, with a representative form of government that derives all of its power from the will of the people, framed by a Constitution that is the supreme law of the land.

Islam is built on a foundation of church and state being one, an inseparable autocratic form of government that derives all of its power solely from the will of Allah, framed exclusively by Islamic law-which Islam holds to be divine, supreme, and immutable.

So the danger that Islam poses to America is that Islam, at its core, is ideologically at war with our Constitution. It is a declared war against everything our Constitution stands for. This is a war of polarized ideologies, and they are irreconcilable.

Every conflict we have with Muslims and Islamic nations everywhere around the world arises from that one very simple fact. All other "explanations" are wrong, and so lead to no solutions, only endless turmoil."
http://www.politicalislam.com/blog/interview-with-vijay-kumar/

"The American Academy of Pediatrics has reversed its decision last month regarding the practice of female circumcision by immigrants from some African, Middle Eastern and Asian cultures."
http://www.newsrealblog.com/2010/05/27/success-american-academy-of-pediatrics-shamed-into-reversal-of-female-genital-mutilation-policy/

"Doctors consider 'less severe' female circumcision

By Timothy McDonald

The body representing Australia's obstetricians and gynaecologists is considering whether to support a less extreme version of female circumcision known as a ritual nick....."

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/05/28/2911991.htm

The American Academy of Pediatrics has finally seen the light and now
"the Royal Australian New Zealand College of Obstetricians will next month
discuss backing "ritual nicks", a modified form of genital mutilation."

"Push to let Australian doctors mutilate genitals of baby girls"
http://www.news.com.au/national/push-to-let-australian-doctors-mutilate-genitals-of-baby-girls/story-e6frfkvr-1225872274181

When will this multicultural madness end?

Will all female genital mutilators and multicultural apologists please emigrate to where your madcap views are shared.

I posted this on the other FGM thread, but it seems apposite here too:

I think that laws against FGM should be enforced, and further that the mooted 'ritual nick' should not be countenanced in Australia. I gather that it's been rejected in the US now, so it's unlikely to be adopted here anyway.

My position derives from the interests of the children who are subject to these anachronistic, unnecessary and quite barbaric practices.

Of course, the same arguments can be applied to male children, who are still commonly circumcised for 'health' reasons in Australian hospitals.

I was circumcised when I was born, but my now adult son wasn't, basically since the hospital policy at the time was anti-circumcision and neither his mother nor I could think of a good reason for him to be surgically mutilated. Twenty years later he seems to be suffering no ill-effects from having a foreskin.

Mind you, I've never noticed any ill-effects from not having one. But how would I know?

Seriously, I think that any form of genital (or other) surgery on children should be performed only on strictly medical grounds. Religious tolerance shouldn't extend to child abuse, and neither should the cultural practice of routinely mutilating boys' genitals for spurious 'health' reasons be condoned, IMHO.

I find myself in the bizarre situation of agreeing with CJ Morgan.