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The Forum > General Discussion > Time for a new National Firearms Agreement

Time for a new National Firearms Agreement

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ChrisPer, I just looked up the link you gave. The abstract statement was,
'The findings of the report show that since 1997 licensed firearm owners have not been responsible for over 90 per cent of firearm related homicides. Most firearms used to commit homicide were not registered and their owners not licensed.'
Firstly, this equates to less than 10% of firearm homicides, not 15%.
Unfortunately, at the webpage your link points to, when I click on the references, the message both times is 'Sorry. What you’re looking for isn’t here at the moment'. I downloaded the paper, though and found nothing to support any claims of licence holders commiting murder with registered firearms since 1996 (even Monash wasn't mentioned). What was mentioned was a study done by the Home Office in 1996 where it was stated that 15% (could this be where you got your figure?) of firearms used in homicides in the period 1992-4 were 'legally held by someone—either the perpetrator, the victim, or an original owner from whom the firearm had been stolen'. Not exactly the same as 'About 15% of gun murders are by legal owners', more like 15% of guns used in murders belong to legal owners who may have had them stolen etc. Also, as this study was in England and Wales and pre-1996, how is it relevant?
After reviewing these statements, I still ask why the Monash shooting is the only one mentioned when the subject of homicide by licensed shooters and registered guns comes up. Does no-one else wonder why there are never any other examples given? Do these 'other examples' exist? Or can I go back to believing that the Monash shooting is the only incident since 1996?
I'm still open to actual evidence.
Posted by Austin Powerless, Tuesday, 11 May 2010 11:48:38 AM
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Sorry Austin, I pulled that 15% from memory, in response to the suggestion that whatsisface at Monash was the only licensed shooter to commit murder.

My apologies that its really 10%. The link just worked for me, and right next to the sentence you quoted:"Of the 117 homicide offenders who used firearms to commit homicide, only 11 (9.4%) homicide offenders were licensed firearms owners with registered firearms."

That rather undermines your "Pity that you never mentioned that he was (and still is) the ONLY licensed shooter ever to have committed gun crime. Don't let the facts get in the way of your theories, eh?"

Gun crime is a much bigger category than murder. It includes items like armed robbery, malicious wounding, assault, going armed so as to cause fear, poaching, and armed trespass while in possession of an aardvark for purposes of sexual immorality. It includes peppering the arse of burglars with a shotgun when you catch them in the act, too.

The gun control groups and their fellow travellers are only interested in restricting legitimate shooters, and only interested in crime they can blame legitimate shooters for. I have found over the last 14 years that arguing from facts doesn't get us anywhere, but getting the facts wrong is even less helpful.
Posted by ChrisPer, Wednesday, 12 May 2010 1:19:28 PM
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ChrisPer, I still can't access the links at
'References
Media release: Licensed gun owners not responsible for firearm homicides
Information on how to order this publication'
All I get is
'Sorry. What you’re looking for isn’t here at the moment.
The AIC website is being redeveloped and the page you requested is currently unavailable.'
The report that you referred me to stated that over 90% of firearms homicides were committed by unlicenes perpetrotors using unregistered guns. It did not state how much over 90% - was it 90.15, was it 99.9%?
Just ask yourself, why is it that only the Monash shooting is ever mentioned in connection to a gun murder by a licensed shooter? Have you heard or read of the supposed others? If so, where?
I think that the statements on there being other licensed gun-murderers is purely propaganda put out by the conspiracy theorists who think that they are in danger from legal gun owners.
No-one I have asked and no amount of research I have carried out has ever pointed to these other licensed murderers who have killed with registerd guns.
Posted by Austin Powerless, Thursday, 13 May 2010 11:41:46 AM
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Sorry about your link probs Austin, you might like to try going to the AIC website directly and selecting 'publications', 'Trends and Issues', and finding no.151 in the series.

As to the rest of your comment, I unfortunately knew two murderers in my life. One would certainly have got a gun license if he had applied, but he didn't that I am aware of. The other was a sort-of farmer, licensed to own a couple of rifles, and he used one of those and an illegal handgun to murder a policeman. I am aware of two other family murder-suicides in WA (over several decades) involving conflicts with stepchildren, and to the best of my knowledge both were licenced owners. I hate to dwell on this, because my interst is analysisng and defending the evidence for legal owners being trustworthy. You should be doing a little research for yourself.
Posted by ChrisPer, Thursday, 13 May 2010 6:44:34 PM
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Seventeen pages and not one shred of evidence at all of any benefit from John Howard's buy-back or his redundant gun laws and gun registry.

However there is plenty of evidence that his political stunt redirected police resources, both manpower and computing, into the worthless busywork of bureaucratic paper-shuffling and in the surveillance and random inspections at the homes of ordinary citizens who had already been found to be law-abiding and of good character.

Without even counting the twenty plus new taxes and fees introduced and maintained since, that is a billion dollars of taxes blown and still counting.
Posted by Cornflower, Thursday, 13 May 2010 11:14:58 PM
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ChrisPer, I did more than a little research myself, as stated in my previous post.
I have stated over and over that the Monash shooting is the only one mentioned when the subject of gun murders by licensed shooters using registered firearms rises - certainly since 1996.
The two murderers that you mentioned you knew don't fit the bill either. The first was someone who you think didn't have a license while the other used an illegal handgun. As for the two cases in WA, you, yourself, can only state that the perpetrators were licensed to the best of your knowledge. As that's only hearsay, it appears that my original statement stands and the only murder by a licensed shooter using a registered gun was at Monash.
No amount of research has come up with any information to challenge this. I can only research the facts that are there - if there is no information out there I can only draw the conclusion that there is nothing to report.
Posted by Austin Powerless, Friday, 14 May 2010 7:12:02 PM
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