So the argument is from a male POV:
1. Women should be solely responsible should a pregnancy occur
2. Women don't want sex unless for financial gain
3. Men want sex with numerous partners but hold no responsibility
4. Patriarchy was orchestrated by women for financial gain
4. For some reason women get lots of headaches

Men are just as instinctively protective and wedded to the idea of family as women. Even primitive men, as Suze said, went out and hunted food for the tribe. Fatherhood was not 'invented' as such but you don't need to define in modern terms for what might have come naturally to various tribal groups. Regardless whether primitve man knew how children were born, there appears to exist an innate or biological predisposition to protect women and children who were not as physically able to fight off marauding tribes or predators.

Supporting a child out of wedlock (or shared responsibility) is a relatively new phenomenon despite your views about the origin of patriarchy (talk about an interesting historical re-write). Up until the 70s most out of wedlock babies were adopted out, often the man unaware that he had conceived a child. The women made to feel shameful and unchaste.

I have never had casual sex but if I had and ended up pregnant I would frankly not involve the man at all. However some might accuse me of being unfair ie. the man has a right to know he has a child etc. The woman might say, well not if he does not take responsibility in helping to raise the child if your rules were to apply.

Women can't win really. We are either needy parasites that feed off men (according to some) who are just after the money or we are selfish cows who deny the rights of a father to know his child. This is all pretty old fashioned stuff given that these days both partners are usually employed for the most part except for a period of time for some when children are very young.

A side issue but a relevant one - studies about adoption reveal that there is more often than not, even with a happy upbringing with non-biological parents, a need for us to know our roots.

Sometimes adoption might be the best option where there is no other support but it is not always the right option often leading to feelings of abandonment by the children and loss by the mother (and father if he was aware).

I don't know what the answer is to be absolutely 100% fair or even if it is possible to discern what is fair and what is not. Because the issue is the child and how it will be raised, by whom and with what support.

If I got a man pregnant (hypothetically of course) I would want contact with my child and some influence on their life, for them to know their grandparents and for them to know they are loved. Men are not that much different from women. If they were, there would not be the brouhaha over Family Law if men were not equally invested in their children.

Peter Hume: <"spermatozoa* with *men*">

No I'm not - I did mean sperm; nor am I "confused". I was demonstrating that we are all capable of constructing some sort of rationale to support any behaviour we choose, out of what we accept as 'natural'. My rationale is just as viable as yours.

Peter - one thing I wonder about is, if so much of yourself is vested in whether or not you can fertilize lots of females. What else are you?

Who will you be when you can no longer achieve an erection (assuming that anyone wants your erections anyway). Viagra might help you hang on to your identity for a while - but what about when that finally doesn't work?

If men (as you portray them) are only interested in merry copulation - not family; not relationships or intimacy - where are the men placed who can't get sex; are impotent; are infertile?

What's the plan for the bloke of 60 or summin whose health is deteriorating; whose kith and kin will grant him the same amount of consideration, effort and care as he gave them (ie: none).

Peter and Squeers, I don't believe many men just 'bonk' indiscriminately with no thought to the consequences. Are they so blinded by the urge for sex?

For goodness sake, can't men who DEFINITELY' don't want to give money to support their children just say 'NO, wait a minute honey while I just put on this condom-"? If not, why not?

You seem to have no trouble trying to exert your control over women in all other ways!
And I think we all know some men who do agree to take the risk because they don't like wearing condoms.
A few seconds of pleasure for a lifetime of consequences.

No more crying now boys. You can't have your cake and eat it too!

This is the funniest thread i've seen in a long time. The girls are all in a tizz because Peter H has suggested some personal responsibility for their own decisions. Pelican you'r the funniest of all.

Noone has said "Women should be solely responsible should a pregnancy occur", simply that as the woman is the "gateleeper" it's up to her to ensure the portcullis is properly secure before lowering the drawbridge. Women now have control, thanks to the pill, IUDs, and the clear and obvious presence or absence of a condom, so pregnancy is nearly always either intentional or due to a woman's irresponsibility. If she is irresponsible, why should he be held to account? Why is it his responsibility to say "open wide and hand me the speculum, I want to check your diaphragm's in place"? If they hit it off at the nightclub and go back to her place, there's obviously no intent to have kids. If she knows she's ovulating (and who better to know) why is it not her responsibility to exercise restraint?

It's that whole notion of personal responsibility that is so hard, isn't it girls? what you want is authority (the right to determine who you have sex with) but no responsibility for the outcomes produced by exercising your authority. That pretty much sums up why feminism as it's done today is such a contemptible ideology. It doesn't foster self-determination it fosters a demand for handouts and special treatment and lots of "support", but never, ever, ever personal responsibility for women. "Girls can do anything" except take personal responsibility.

Well I am glad I continue to provide some amusement Anti.

Men are also the gatekeepers of their sperm. It has to be released somewhere with the man's permission, it is not a random event out of your control.

You mention personal responsibility but put the onus solely on women.

I am all for personal responsibility which includes who is responsible for the care of the baby - which is at the end of the day is a joint responsibility.

But I suspect this debate will continue to go around in circles as is the nature of these gender based discussions.