The dilemma of an increasingly incompetent work force, homeless people, ignorant policy makers, ignorant authorities, useless or rather pointless bureaucrats etc. etc. would unquestionably be curbed by the introduction of a National (not military) Service. Teachers should have to spend a minimum of two years in the real world before getting anywhere near a class room. Employers would be far more inclined to hire young people who had prior exposure to responsibility. Homeless youths at least gain an understanding that a sense of responsibility would very likely keep them off the streets. The whole country would benefit from a more responsible Public Service. Law & Order would be less of an issue. The list of benefits just goes on. We have 35 years of evidence that the absence of National Service has a negative effect on society. What have young people to lose by two years of learning responsibility ? We can't continue to hope for technology to solve our problems.

Homeless youths are there because they're irresponsible?. Where does mental health, child abuse, and drug addiction fit into this little synopsis?.

Obama wants a citizen army just as strong just as powerful as the professional military.This is a way of subjuating the masses under the threat of economic breakdown.They are pushing for wars as a solution to economic woes,get more control of us and the expand the empire.It is pure facism.It is the same scenario over and over again that gave us the two world wars.We are just too stupid to realise it.

Tell them to stick their national service where the sun don't shine.It is a oligarchical ruse to give more power to the few.

Homeless youths are there because they're irresponsible?
Stg,
no, they're there because they don't have enough sense of responsibility. Irresponsibility is something peculiar to academics & bureaucrats & do-gooders. i.e. people who should have to do National Service to lessen the burden of their incompetence & uselessness on the rest of us taxpayers.

Homeless youths are there because they're irresponsible?. Where does mental health, child abuse, and drug addiction fit into this little synopsis?.

As I have said before, we are all provided with an equal oportunity to fail. Hiding behind some excuse just doesn't cut the mustard for me i'm affraid. We can all find something in our past that was disturbing.

If NS was to rid our shopping malls and parks of unrully youth, then I'm all for giving it a go.

After all, what's happening now clearly isn't working, so why not try.

I don't like the idea of national service:
(which I assume as either volunteer work, 'employed' jobs, military or peace corps/aid work).

1- it forces many young people, who may have already been well disciplined to waste a few months/years of their life really just putting in a token effort- especially bad if they were actually planning some kind of business enterprise (and many do from a young age). It would be like forcing everyone to go to JAIL for a few months just so they know what it's like.

2- It is highly dubious that some arbitrarily-assigned services will be particularly guaranteed to provide an improved outlook on life- let alone become 'the real world' (what does that even mean? What's so 'not-real' about the day-to-day life the average Australian lives?)

3- Conscripts forced into their position against their will tend not to work as seriously as proper employees or volunteers who actually elected to do the service. This might not be so bad for building up 'volunteer' numbers and cheap labor (illegal), but if this topic WERE specifically about military/security or peacekeeping/aid/assistance it's a poor assignment indeed- especially if our real personnel had to rely on their help.

4- Did I mention human/civil rights?

All because of a tiny minority of troubled youth (even look at the statistics- youth crime rates are low- youth RE-OFFENSE rates TINY).

Child abuse, mental health, and addiction is a cop out?. *shakes head*

Thank God you guys aren't child workers.

Ok, individual, I'll bite.

>>We have 35 years of evidence that the absence of National Service has a negative effect on society<<

I'd be interested to understand the nature of this evidence.

Any chance of a reference?

King Hassa:
I have to disagree with you regarding National Service.

Like all military organizations it has the ability to bring the person with a superior standard down to a median level and conversely bring up a person with a lower standard to that same median level.
The person with the superior standard can further his or her future by taking advantage of the higher skill level occupations offered internally by the Service.

It has the ability to instill the self-discipline and self-worthiness in a person lacking in these particular attributes, which itself appears to be a problem relatively commonplace in today`s society.

In its early phase, it teaches young people to accept directions by a superior and the penalties for disobedience. It teaches pride in appearance, punctuality in attendance, the ability to work together as a group, accepting and sharing responsibilty for the outcome of a given task, as well as the group penalty for failure!

National Service serves to educate the uneducated by teaching or re-inforcing the basic education skills. A member can also learn the basics of Trade Skills which can be used in the civilian field or to access further advancement within the permanent Defence Forces.

It creates a pool of personnel, trained in military expertise that can be called upon in the event of any military threat against our country, and most importantly it solves a substantial part of the unemployment situation, by employing these persons who would otherwise be unemployed, and a non-productive section of Australian society

It sounds good in theory Crackup but there is a considerable margin of error to prevent it from carrying out in practice.

Putting aside of course the fact that the vast majority of people seem to have little difficulty actually performing all of the feats national service is meant to do, and would simply be taken away from whatever discourses they had actually intended to do for a long period of time.

So really the only appropriate course of action to test this theory is a voluntary 'national-service-for-the-dole' program- where participants must agree to national service to get dole payments (assuming they won't just go for the other, much more attractive variants, which they aught have right to).

And another question that needs to be asked- WHAT services?
Military? Undergoing a training program? Domestic stationing? Overseas deployment?
Apprenticeship? Volunteer work? Paid employment? UN-paid employment? Forcefully assigned a job or career path that nobody wants to do and thus has a higher demand for workers?

You can clearly see a substantial violation of people's rights and liberties- solely to address a very presumptuous social assumption which would have a hard time being proven.

Finally...someone with courage to raise National Service.

I fully agree with you Individual regarding National Service. I was talking to family about National Service years ago, wondering why the government had not acted upon it or few others.

Too late for my daughter now as she is 19yrs and son 16yrs. He's done hard physical work for 5 yrs now and trained up in so many areas, although he would thrive as a participant of national service.

I would be over the moon to become involved in getting National Service up and running, Individual, particularly for teenage girls to be compulsory participants. I deal with them regularly of all ages and backgrounds. The positives outweighing any negatives if organised methodically.

I am happy to do a great deal of ground work and assist if you wish to introduce and push this concept Individual.

Or obtain funding for some more boot camps in other states a great plus!

Crackup: you gave the full explanations of my thoughts regarding National Service.

'self discipline', 'ownership issues', responsibility for one's own self and actions, self-esteem raised to enjoy self worth, nothing but positives for Aussie teens.

The parents of a few 15yr old girls am dealing with at present would be only too quick despatching their daughters [some sons] away to participate in National Service or boot camps regularly or during the school holidays. Friends of friends going through nightmares with their 15-17 yr old kids. 3 x business couples together not separated [loving parents] enduring disrespect, totally over the top selfish behaviour displayed by their kids, knowing only too well their 'rights' and overstepping boundaries for their own safety and well being. Damage to their parents property not getting their way, running away from home with an older boyfriend, the lists always endless.

Love exhibited by these parents assisted with the boundaries UNTIL puberty sets in, along with peer pressure significantly affecting many of these kids.

Yes to National Service!! on behalf of many parents I constantly communicate with regarding their 15-17 yr olds.

Am sorry Crackcup [typo when addressing your name].

I'd be interested to understand the nature of this evidence.
Pericles,
you've answered your own question unless of course you're still very young. Look around & observe the utter uselessness of so many who, instead of helping to build this nation are inexcusable parasites simply due to the lack of discipline & responsibility that those of us who pay for our oxygen, are getting tired of supporting.
Can I ask you a question in return ? What do you see wrong with a young person having to put in some effort to go through life ? There're many young people who do that. My motto is help those who need help but don't do things for those who are too lazy.

Again Individual, I'm looking around but struggling to see very many of such people- as most people I can see tend to, funnily enough, get jobs or study eventually anyway; so for the vast majority (and I mean VAST) of Australians, national service is just a waste of time.

Hence Pericles' request for some evidence that the population in general needs NS, and what in NS is supposed to change them for the better.

In other words, NS seems little but a vague cure for a seemingly imagined social problem.

King Hazza,
All I can reply to your observations is that you are very,very fortunate indeed not to live in a part of this country where young people chose to be unemployable. To those who don't think people should not have to perform tasks they don't want to do I can only say go out & talk to those millions of workers who'd rather do something different. Choice of work is a priviledge that simply no society can afford for everyone.

To All:

I would like to add one very important stipulation to my enthustastic recommendation for the implemntation of National Service!

It must NOT be used simply to create a pool of "cannon fodder" for the bolstering of Australia`s involvement in "illegal actions" ie the invasion of Iraq.

The Government of the day and each successive Government must accept and guarantee that the young people trained via National Service will not be "wasted" on cavalier expeditions, in support of other nations vested interests, again, "Weapons of Mass Deception"

"Choice of work is a priviledge that simply no society can afford for everyone."
But it will be "everyone" being robbed of their choice just for the few too lazy to get of their bums.
You could have NS-for-the-dole; a more voluntary system that actually targets those who need it (again, the minority who needs it, as I'm sure any check of employment statistics would tell), instead of a blanket conscription, to (theoretically) instill a positive attitude?

Again, WHAT services are they performing?

Wow, great idea!

Take a bunch of disaffected unemployed kids off the street for a few years, teach them how to kill with their bare hands and them dump them back into society.

It's an even worse option than transporting them across the country and sending them down the mines.

Most aren't there because they choose to be. Employers don't want to pay to give the young new skills when they can just make the older employees work years longer or bring in people from overseas when needed.

But it will be "everyone" being robbed of their choice,
King Hazza,
No not all. Everyone will get the opportunity to make a far more informed choice with the benefit of having been exposed to the responsibilities of life. Don't forget, we have individual rights slogans blasted at us from every direction but I have yet to hear something about individual responsibility.
Wobbles,
teach them how to kill with their bare hands.
A perfect & classical example. Had you attended NS you'd never make a statement like that. We advocate National Service not military Service. That is the prime difference between understanding & not understanding.

Youth of today are out of control. There needs to be a system of accountability. So a national service scheme that involves lifes skills, as well as an informed and practical experience that they could one day be called upon to defend our very existence.
Elder people who say youth violations are very low, low to what, should there be any youth violations.

King Hazza's thoughts reflect mine on this so I won't repeat his already great comments on this subject.

For those young people who are unsure about signing up to a longer contract with the Defence services or thinking about a career in Defence, can always get a taste through the ADF Gap Year program - which is purely voluntary.

http://www.defencejobs.gov.au/education/gapyear/

Wobbles:
"Take a bunch of disaffected kids off the street for a few years, teach them how to kill with their bare hands and then dump them back into society"

A bunch of "disaffected kids" on the streets would most probably be heavily involved in street crime, drug use or dealing, or even muggings and the like! Where do these "kids" go from there, except down the sewers eventually ending up on the morticians slab, to become another social sad statistic.

National Service can give some of these kids who are receptive enough to the process, the opportunity to extricate themselves from a lifestyle of degradation and eventual premature death, whilst at the same time learning a basic set of values and trade skills that may have been out of reach due to their own particular environmental lifestyle, or of their own choosing.

The issue of kids learning to kill with their bare hands,..what is the difference between these kids and the other kids who join the Defence Forces and are taught the rudimentary skills of military survival?...Do we see these ex Defence Force members running amok and killing everyone who offends them?...I think not!

Maybe I shouldn't have used the term National Service. What I am advocating is a service to the nation which requires about-to-become-adult youths to be exposed to the realities of nation/society building & the associated responsibilities. What we've had for 35 years is a government sanctioned relaxation of individual responsibility which has resulted in the incredulous "everybody owes me" mentality of today. Can anyone (academic fruitcakes excepted) put up an argument against the validity of making individuals accepting responsibility for their actions ? If anyone can, let them put their hand-out earned money where their mouths are.
To survive as a reasonably functioning society we absolutely must have young people to engage in vital but unpopular activities so they realise how people are fed & clothed everyday day on this planet. Even more eye-opening will be the realisation of how we can afford the so often taken for granted luxury of compassion.

Well at least young people have a choice, between mining and killing people. Lets face it, the music these days sounds like a jaw crusher, and the drugs make you just want to kill kill kill. Of course, I can have a laugh about such ideas both due to their inanity and my age, which is kind of cool. I'm not old enough to write cranky letters to the editor about "the youth of today" or the price of a wheelbarrow full of potatoes during the war.

Sigh, Individual;
"Can anyone (academic fruitcakes excepted) put up an argument against the validity of making individuals accepting responsibility for their actions ?"
This attitude suggests absolutely zero intent to actually check or listen to academic or generally more factual studies on young delinquency and crime, but prefer to take it for granted that overall, the youth of today have abandoned all morals and are running amok.

And I've told you, about three times, it AINT. Stop buying into Today Tonight and try some research- including to actually going anywhere you might run into teenagers and see for yourself. The vast majority of this target group you INSIST need help are in fact, largely willing AND autonomously active to get jobs, looking after themselves and living responsibly with intent to study or pursue a trade. Those that don't come from family backgrounds that were already what you have described- and even the majority of those from such backgrounds gradually aim for the more positive standards anyway.

And to answer the question of why our defense forces don't run amok after being trained to kill- our defense forces are high-quality and low-number for a REASON- all recruits are quizzed and scanned to ensure only those with high mental competence and stability are chosen- the EXACT opposite of the delinquents some keep insisting need to be taught the same.

Sorry, this whole thing is getting silly- so many demands based on unfounded assumptions that even the vaguest research or asking relevant persons would disprove.

academic or generally more factual studies .
King Hazza,
Don't you realise that most of the social problems we have are due to academic experts' philosophies ? It's academics' recommendations that are always implemented not blue collar workers'. When have you ever seen blue collar workers' or self employed peoples' recommendation implemented ? It's always academic experts that just as ignorant bureaucrats listen to, never people who know ! Our social problems are a direct result of this. A compulsory exposure to responsibility will reduce the incidence of this idiocy. Just imagine how much an ignorant academic could benefit from such a learning curve.
May I suggest we get a group of unemployed & put them to work in any field with labour shortage & study the result of that. You'd get a real result not just a theory. The outcome would be that they will have spent time doing something they don't like but not wasted that time learning nothing.

I agree, Hazza. This seems like a half-baked solution to a problem that doesn't really exist, except in small pockets of disadvantage. I live in the bush, and the teenagers I know and encounter in my community are virtually all either studying or working. Where I live there isn't really a shortage of unskilled and seasonal work, but what are noticeably absent are apprenticeships and jobs with a career path.

My late teen son lives in Brisbane, where he goes to uni and works part-time - as do virtually all of his friends. They are responsible young people who don't do drugs and tend to only drink socially, and have very active social lives that involve everything from sport to theatre to role-playing games.

This proposal seems to be more of a vehicle for individual to express his antipathy towards "academics" and the young people he encounters, rather than any kind of coherent program to improve young people's responsible participation in society.

Individual's idea (a boring refrain) comes straight out of establishment. The initiator of this thread is not conversant with the possibility that this world could be other than it is. He doesn't realise that the world we're born into is not some divine plan, God-made and inevitably capitalist. He just wants to feed the system, the best of all possible worlds. He has no comprehension that some people see beyond an utterly catered life. When he leaves this world, it'll be, for him, like he was leaving a restaurant; he'll puff himself up and pronounce ponderously on the plumb pudding and the pusilanimous poltroon proffering profiteroles: "a stint in the army would sort him out!".
National service is despicable. If there was a just cause, the men and women of every generation (including myself) would rally round. But the only just cause at the moment is national-examination and reform, for which national service would be a convenient tourniquet. The poltroon in the restaurant would no doubt make an excellent chocolate soldier, whom we could use to celebrate the century to come, and inspire the next generation of fodder.

to express his antipathy towards "academics"
CJ Morgan,
You've just floored me ! What no accusation of racism ? You're slipping ! Surely there must be some racist element in my post ?
As per your usual standard you're contradicting yourself again with this line in your reply. "rather than any kind of coherent program to improve young people's responsible participation in society". What on God's earth have we been debating about ? To improve young peoples' participation in society !
Call it antipathy or whatever else but can you give me just one (1) instance where a policy proposed by a working background "expert" has been implemented ?
Squeers,
You're most welcome to pay more taxes to keep supporting those who feel they're too special to have to pull their own weight.
It saddens me to have to defend a commitment to decency on this special day.

Dear Individual,

I think it may be worth giving it a try.
Because as Rehctub said, what we currently
have isn't working.

I remember friends of ours who had problems
with their son, they ended up paying very
high fees to send him to some sort of
military academy overseas. It straightened him out.

At least its worth a trial.

I think that the poor souls out there who are so vehemently opposed to the whole concept of a National Service or similar, simply have an ingrained fear that they or their ilk may one day have to stand up and be counted in any future conflict that may threaten this country.

I agree with you Individual that it is a sad situation indeed when one has to try to defend what so many achieved and sacrificed in years gone by in defence of these ungrateful paltroons, who are now living in a free country, free due to the very many who lost their lives to bring freedom to these clowns who cannot see the wood for the trees,.....I wonder what they are doing today?

In case any of you may feel offense at my statements, I would advise that I personally served Australia as a member of the Defence Forces for 21 years of my life, so I consider that I am qualified to offer my opinion on the matter!

Foxy:
<I remember friends of ours who had problems
with their son, they ended up paying very
high fees to send him to some sort of
military academy overseas. It straightened him out.>

Perhaps you're right... But what about the girls, eh? A stint in boot camp might be just the thing, what! It might discourage homosexuality among the ranks too. Nothing like a military wedding don't you know!
Maybe we could all have a military uniform under the bed? And if we don't actually see military service, we could wear it at Anzac day parades, and on Australia day, dripping with medals--and scare the bejesus out of the greenies and lefties and boaties, and especially those who commit the unforgivable sacrilege of not committing to a lifetime of acquisition for its own sake.

Speak for yourself Crackup and individual about the intent of naysayers, but I am FAR from one who would cower from a summons by Australia's Defense Force if this country needed fighters, and not even particularly predisposed to not bother till then to at least sign myself up for the reserves.
And despite that, I'm STILL telling you it's a dumb idea to introduce NS in Australia.

If you were to employ an unemployed person that wanted the job, that person would most likely WORK.
Again, NS-for-the dole would be appropriate as it would directly target those that may actually warrant NS- but most people get all the positive outlook they need from normal society- to which NS would just be a redundant hinderance.

As for 'academics'- they implement policies all the time- as do blue-collar citizens implement industrial policies, inventions and such to their respective industries. But the whole deal with academics is they are simply called upon to RESEARCH. But even then, it's not even just the 'academics'- check out employment statistics, dole statistics, and crime rates and anyone else would tell you the same thing- that's about as close to proof you can get.
Even with the ratio of employment to working-age citizens- you would need to keep in mind how many might be studying, on disability pension, or, most likely, have a breadwinner/homemaker relationship in their household.

Dear Squeers,

What's the matter?
This is the second post of yours that I've read today
where I don't know if you're serious or pulling
my leg.

All I was suggesting - is give it a trial.
And it could well be extended to not be
gender focused but applicable to all.

Uniforms under beds?
That's a most inappropriate comment
coming on Anzac Day.

Those uniforms were
earned through blood, sweat, and tears.
We owe a tremendous debt to uniforms
in this country. If it wasn't for uniforms -
our history might well have been very different.

Foxy,
there is nothing at all the matter. My comments on this thread, and elsewhere, have been perfectly consistent, on topic and serious (is non-conformity on the usual sacred cows so incomprehensible for you that there must be something 'wrong' when someone refuses to whistle in tune?). I did a stint in the army twenty five years ago and come from a military family; I am thus well versed in the ideological swill of militarism and patriotism. Much as I have infinite sympathy for all those who suffer and die in war (especially the innocent), I despise the shameless popularisation of patriotism in recent decades, which effectively censors just criticism of Australia's participation in all wars past and present.
I find patriotism nauseating.
It is not the young people that are at fault and in need of a dose of military brainwashing; it's the system that's at fault and in need of reform. Apologies for thinking for myself.

Complete rubbish, individual.

For a start, you haven't specified what you mean by "National Service". You say that your suggestion isn't restricted to military service, like the last experience Australia had of national service (i.e. conscription to fight a pointless war on behalf of someone else). However, you don't provide any details of what you envisage as 'national service', beyond vague muttering about young people doing unpleasant stuff they dion't want to do.

What sort of work do you have in mind? Have you taken into account that it's probably work that people are already paid to do - and if so, what becomes of them?

What do you mean by "a working background 'expert'" anyway? If you think that academics don't work, you obviously know nothing about their jobs and the conditions under which they work. If you mean uneducated and disgruntled manual workers like yourself, perhaps the lack of any detail for implementing your vague ideas might be a clue as to why they aren't taken up.

Get real, mate. Australia is a much bigger and more complex society than you apparently experience in your daily life - and very, very few Australians would support the reintroduction of 'national service', particularly in the unspecified form that you have so far provided.

CJ Morgan,
why bother ah, never mind.

We are all flaming worried about our future taxes are we not? Mmmm....gather you and Hazza do not have much time for the concept of youth acquiring 'life AND SURVIVAL skills' CJ.

For the young people of 16-18 yrs who already take ownership of their lives; they would not have anything to be concerned about if National Service is introduced and implemented during a short period of time. Ditto for those young people between 16-18yrs who are sensible and responsible.

There would be far more positives than negatives, learning many life skills via a National Service program as opposed to 16-18 year olds who have not been taught life or survival skills ie bush cooking, bush first aid, bush medical care [including improvisations with lack of resources]. Knowledge is power for Australian kids and for the wider community, some of these my 15 yr old on the farm has learned and teaching his mates. Who knows? One little life or survival skill may save his mates' lives travelling overseas or here one day.

How many 16-18 yr olds know the safest and healthiest ways to survive in the mountains when lost for a week? How many kids know where and how to forage for food when lost? How to cook with limited resources? How to find fresh water?

Many kids did not attend scouts or have the opportunity to learn 'basic' skills that Australian adults likewise have not acquired.

How many teachers annually take kids into mountains, become lost, develop hypothermia, become dehydrated, disoriented, lose a few students, as a result of not knowing life survival skills AND not preparing for mountain treks using common sense or 'thinking' ahead for common 'what if' outcomes of those trips.

Many of these mental health illnesses common in young people would be assisted also, by addressing self esteem issues, that alone would save all of the worried little taxpayers a few dollars down the track.

Sorry WAU, that hardly justifies NS at all.

So, people that don't need NS, who might have been able to plan their lives, must instead put it aside so they can learn bush-tucker skills in the off chance that they might decide to go trekking deep into the outback? And this is supposed to translate into employment outlook by....

This might come as a big shock but most people- especially city dwellers, would never be in a situation to rely on those skills- even if there were a wartime draft (when they could learn then), as much as many people inland would not be put in a situation where they would need to know how to swim in oceanic currents in the off-chance they would be stationed in the Navy (ignoring the fact that the navy would most likely demand extensive existing experience with oceanic swimming- not to mention boating).

Not to mention learning a trade and consulting municipal services is just as much a life skill as finding food and conserving energy out in the wild.

I'm starting to think that the social decay that needs to be sorted out is actually just disgust at urbanite incompetency at survival skills.

And I'm not sure why you started bringing up taxes- as CJ and myself are more concerned about rights and liberty, as we have both repeatedly explained.

This is my second post King Hazza; an addition to my first comments part of which are:

Benefits of 'self discipline', 'ownership issues', responsibility for one's own self and actions, self-esteem raised, nothing but positives for Aussie teens.

Raising self esteem in many young people via a National Service program may well assist also in a downturn of mental health issues [in young people]was an extension of my first posting.

Bush tucker aspect was the least important reason outlined.

Every one is interested in where their taxes are going; some more than most. Some a bit precious about those coffers going back into young people; our future generation.

Disgust at urbanites? No King Hazza I mix with urbanites daily during my work and non-voluntary work, live and have lived in all dwellings. You may be surprised if you could see where my bum is now parked.

Liberties?

If the National Service program is ever put together and trialled effectively, I would be most interested in seeing a poll conducted on the numbers of 15-18 year olds who would readily agree with National Service if introduced as a short period and a one-off.

You may be surprised at the positive reaction for direction and eagerness in knowing that their self esteem will be raised after the completion of a National Service program.

Should read voluntary work; not 'non-voluntary' work [most of which is with 'young people 15-22yrs]!

King Hazza,
A NS focusing on daily essential services activities will produce an appreciation for anyone who is performing those tasks even for only a short period. An unwelcome experience is an experience & experience is what counts (sorry academics) in forging any individual's mentality. You can write & talk about vital but unpleasant work but this will never open one's mind to reality. Only experience does that. My proposal is just that. Get young people to work in essential services such as health, law & order, farming, railway maintenance, water & waste water treatment, road work etc etc. You'd be surprised how many will actually seek employment in those industries once they've been exposed to them. Despite this push to go to Uni which btw. does not solve our dilemma (just look around) many young people are more inclined to perform manual tasks which offer more satisfaction of achievement than the artificially popularised academia. If a young person does not achieve leaving certificate standard (I mean a real one) than they should have the option of doing an apprenticeship, use their natural talents to make a living, work as labourers or any work which does not require more education but leaves their opportunities open to become people paying for their oxygen. Stop forcing useless & unnecessary education down young peoples' throats. Most successful people don't come from academia, they come from experience & common sense. NS will provide the the first rung on the ladder to working life. Education for education's sake is merely a slippery ramp leading to a conveyor belt loading incompetence.

But most young people HAVE self-discipline, self-esteem etc.
So again, NS would be redundant and unnecessary at best, and at worst, a huge interruption into their lives.

If most young people willingly volunteer in their own time (doing something they actually picked, and in a time they could spare), then it further outlines why volunteer work NS is also unnecessary.

"Life skills" are just as much learnt in the workforce, TAFE colleges, trade schools and apprenticeship roles- which those willing would have to put off just to learn 'discipline' which they already had, and 'life skills' they may never have use of.

So the "young people (generally) would benefit" is outright wrong.

Again, if these services do indeed straighten out the troubled ones- make it a requirement for work-for-the-dole benefits- so it actually specifically targets THEM.

And I'm still doing most of the narrowing of criteria here- you guys still have not specified what NS will involve- other than a few very vague and subjective outcomes, and learning bush tucker.

King Hazza:

The concept of a National Service is as follows,....a period of approximately 12 weeks Recruit Training to teach each individual the difference between his ( where you see "his" interpret as "his/her" ) right foot and his left foot.

The skills of learning to tie his shoelaces, shave his face daily, make his bed and do as he is told, when he is told. He is taught not to pick his nose and spit in public. These are basic "skills" that all young people should be taught by their parents, but unfortunately seem to be lacking in a great deal of the youth of today.

The recruit is taught basic survival skills, knowledge and use of weaponry and is generally versed in all the basic facets of warfare.

At the completion of this 3 month period he has attained sufficient skills to soldier on should the situation arise.

The N S Recruit can now embark on an upgrade of his basic education,attaining an acceptable level of English, Maths and Physics. This can generally be achieved in a period of 6 weeks or so. The recruit is then in a position to select or be guided into a Trade of choice. ( The choices are wide and varied, but generally fit into the military machine.)

Unless the Recruit is a total dummy, he will have aquired the skills of a basic trade after a period of two years and would be given the option of taking up a trade profession in civilian enterprise, or alternatively utilizing his new-found skills by becoming a member of the Permanent Defence Force.

Whichever direction the N S Recruit may choose after his two years, would certainly have to be better than his sitting on his block, getting paid for watching TV, or generally moping around the local shopping centres, or looking for some poor old codger to mug for his pension money!

Okay guys, thanks for the laugh.

I wasn't *entirely* sure you were all having me on, but I'm quite satisfied now, thanks (especially you Crackup)!

Although individual- are you saying that NS/work is indeed an effort to prevent someone getting an extended education and make them fill an unpopular career path?

Dear Squeers,

I'm glad that you've taken the trouble to
explain your position. I now understand
where you're coming from. I think that we
can all agree on the futility of war. However,
I think what Individual is suggesting in this
thread is some sort of Government program to
provide life skills for troubled youths that are
currently being overlooked in our society.
National Service was his suggestion.
Perhaps you could come up with a better one?

King Hazza,
Yes a lot of young people display self esteem & discipline. Nobody seeks NS/work to be an effort to prevent someone getting an extended education and make them fill an unpopular career path? That is an exceptionally divisive & ignorant statement. NS will provide positive peer pressure apart from the not obvious to you benefits to society.
We need to to focus on all young people to get the start they deserve & this includes a sense of responsibility. Those who already are that way inclined will not be so selfish as to not wish to pass this mentality on to others. Only selfish "everybody owes me" types object to this part of nation/society building. We alway complain about the imbalance of wages well, with a better understanding of how society works these young people will become less ignorant adults than many of their parents today.

Foxy, I just DID suggest a better alternative myself- replacing uniform NS with a dole/welfare option of NS. That is, if people actually tried to get on the Dole, they may be required to sign up for NS. I don't actually endorse it, it's simply a smarter version of what is being proposed as it exclusively singles out the individuals who allegedly actually need it.

Individual- if you weren't implying that NS is a positive because it draws people away from the 'academia' and 'unnecessary education' of college that they would have otherwise picked, you sure had a funny way of phrasing it.

And how, pray, is YOUR NS education/training program not 'forcing useless and unnecessary education down their throats'?
And I hope you aren't simplifying the world into people that would happily join NS and see it as an important requirement, or selfish "everybody owes me" types. If not, please retract that statement I just quoted.

And all the talk about learning life skills- we already have that- school, university, TAFE, scouts and apprentice/trainee programs.
Take your pick- as almost every single person DOES.

And do tell- what exactly IS 'real world experience' that most are lacking, that would help them, say, become an engineer or financial analyst in the city? Or how would NS in ANY way help people aiming to be such people if they were already fully capable of doing it already?

Excellent and highly relevant concept for this and the next generation Individual; Wonderful if government gives a green light on National Service based upon all aspects you have enlightened us with.

But Hazza, they'll be able to tell the difference between their right and left feet, to tie their shoelaces, shave their faces daily, make their beds, do as they are told, when they are told and not to pick their noses and spit in public!

What a joke. Virtually all the young people I encounter know how to do all that stuff already - except I imagine young women might find shaving their faces daily superfluous. They know how to do what they're told too, so long as they're told respectfully and appropriately.

So what does that leave? Oh that's right - the boy scout stuff and how to fire a gun. Hang on, most of the young people around here know that stuff too.

Seriously, I can imagine that this sort of training might be useful to recidivist juvenile delinquents - except perhaps the weapons training - but you can't seriously be suggesting that the majority of young people would benefit appreciably from learning skills they already know.

You can give people discipline without a gun in hand and showing how to kill people.In this present climate it is the last thing we need .Do not encourage the war mongerers.

Israel is currently pushing for the invasion of Iran.They have got Congress to bring in sanctions which could eventually lead the war.We have all the conditions that brought about WW2.So don't think that it can't happen.

Lifeskills, Hmmm?
Sounds a bit formulaic.
But then, life 'is' formulaic for some people, isn't it?
Life isn't about self-discovery, unless it's under controlled conditions ...
The army! The goose-step can be liberating. Seeing all those formerly independent spirits in a perfect drill formation gives me goose bumps, especially when they're accompanied by plenty of phallic symbolism. Kim Jong-il seems to get a kick out of it. You won't see any of those guys picking their noses!
Of course the military has no doubt changed since I was a lad. Back then, life skills meant getting pissed, out bush or in town, fighting and being able to load an SLR magazine in a few seconds, or firing so many bullets per second into a bladder full of fake blood that it literally exploded. Fantastic!
And then of course you learned how to hate properly, not just slope-heads and fags, but all 'others'.
And mate, ain't the ladies suckers for a uniform--it covers the most heinous sins with a layer of respectability. They'll do anything for a man in uniform!
And of course the poor ol' bullet-stopper is so blown away by all the bullcrap, he thinks there must be something in it, and all the degrading, dehumanising, contemptuous rubbish he's been rebelling against is actually what made a man of him! He occupies the high ground now, from which he can survey the surrounding field with suitable contempt--the civies love him for it, he's a life member of the RSL and even has a kind of uneasy self-respect that seemed to pop up out of no-where.
I have one ambition for my kids, that they don't join the military!
Working for the dole is a good idea as long as it's neither demeaning nor inflationary.

Oh Stop CJ! I assure you there are plenty of poor young lads who need careful instruction on shaving their faces with military precision, or they may well cut themselves!
And you have *clearly* overlooked an important point about firing a gun- just because most people know how to do it, the problem is they can't do it PROPERLY!
Honestly it's clear there IS a problem that warrants NS after all!

You too Arjay! You can't possibly compare us to Israel. For one thing, they are surrounded by hostile nations, unlike ourselves!
(oh wait a minute- forget that last line- Indonesia may well be plotting against us as we type- perhaps that's why there are so many advocates)!

And Squeers- I think you've hit the nail on the head- it seems not so much learning 'life skills' as much as discourses important to a set group feel we need to follow.

You are more intelligent socially than those two put together Individual, keep rising above them as you have done. I would not bother replying to their apparent lack of knowledge in areas of youth. Completely oblivious to what is going on around them in society. Wrapped up in their own little social and financial worlds regarding 'youth' ACROSS THE BOARD - AROUND Australia.

Why bother commenting on the thread guys if you do not feel threatened by where your taxes are going? Why comment when it is clear neither of you mix with youth and really know what the hell a high percentage of youth today are going through ie 15-18 yr olds.

WAU, I wouldn't be so quick to presume myself or anyone else against NS to be in a position of ignorance and isolation from the social problems to which you IMPLY, as I can tell you it would be as accurate as your presumption of heavy enough social decay warranting a blanket NS scheme (which is, the exact OPPOSITE).

I can only speak for myself as to what my experience actually is (and I assure you, it's close enough).

But don't be surprised if the other guys are quite similarly well acquainted (such as Squeers).