The cover story is selling government assets brings cost savings to taxpayers.
Is that true?
We are also told we get better faster service, and the lie it is cheaper.
In NSW under Labor or Liberal it actually brings casualisation to workers.
Bigger costs to consumers.
And bigger profits to those who buy our property.
See already big increases in power bought about by increases in electricity ,to allow a lost government to sell it, so its buyers make more money.
See also the sale of NSW lottery's that sale sweetened by wait for it, gift of 200.000 million in unclaimed prize money.
Betcha thought it was our money, that it would end up subsidizing tax payers not share holders.
The idea workers are the problem aims at poor management and even worse ministers, if true why not fix it?
it is a lie we own much but will sell it who ever governs because privatization is the new blindness.

And it's also a lie that they're even doing it for OUR sake.
I think Bob Carr sufficiently outlines the lifecycle of the Australian (especially NSW) career politician, and why they're actually in politics.

And absolutely correct- privatization is a gigantic scam. Just a way for politicians and their business partners to make a cash out of something they didn't actually have to pay for building up (we did that), and of course hold a monopoly on (as you can't exactly pick and choose which sewerage system you use).

Even if the mob we sold our lotteries to actually paid us properly- the revenue it made would have paid for the cost we sold it for in less than two years, according to the papers.

Every syllable you write is true King Hazza, while I think Carr was our last leader of worth he too lied about privatization.
Our current leader may be ok we will never know, she has no team.
Privatization is often by stealth.
Natural attrition is one way.
As experienced workers retire they are replaced with?contractors.
Growing ever more short of workers, by planned lies, more contractors come in.
NSW Rail is a secc pit, contracts let and paid to family members, often the work did not exist.
Plant owned by working rail staff getting the work, or staff paid bribes to see who gets contracts.
No way this slight of hand, can only be sheeted home to rail.
RTA NSW at least is taking great risk in contracting to firms that do not appear to have the resources to do the job.
To firms who get lock up compounds on RTA land to operate from free from experence of having a depot.
In fact years ago the RTA made a choice to begin enterprise agreements.
Trading of productivity increases and better work out comes for wage rises.
Selected by my peers I became a state Single Bargaining Unit delegate.
RTA trained us to death, and during that training let they keys drop in our laps.
They told us why governments follow advice of public servants and privatize.
Continued

This following policy has not changed then under Nick Grenier next Carr, with Max the AXE Max Moore Wilton as CEO.
Contractors the RTA informed us, may cost more in the short term, do a less than good job[ true you know madness but true]
However in time enough contract firms will grow, acquire skills[at our costs] to actively compete with one another.
Productivity we heard would in time increase and costs fall, enough to pay for initial waste.
We must understand that lie, road construction contracts blow out massively, RTA has more than once been forced to finish work that failed AND pay wages for those firms.
Every day foolish contracts are drawn up for Sydney firms to work in country towns taking local firms work.
AND getting paid accommodation costs for imported workers.
The mantra contracting out fixes anything is evidence we should contract out some Polly's and almost every public servant who holds a managers roll.

Very interesting Belly, and very eye opening (although I did have my suspicions of something along those lines, it's nice to get a detailed analysis).

Probably one of the few conditions I'd support a Bill of Rights is one that states no public asset may be sold without passing through a referendum accessible to the relevant public (on city, state or federal level).

Otherwise our only option is to take note of which public servants, politicians and parties endorse the policy (sadly quite a lot) and start shifting our votes- even if they still win, if the shift is dramatic enough they mightn't be so quick to try it out.

Dear Belly,

With privatisation greed takes over and
the worker (taxpayer) ends up paying for
everything - at a higher cost.

What happens when all public assets have been
sold off - what will they find to sell next?
(The workers and the taxpayers?).

Australia used to have the benefits that
Denmark and Austria have - for example
the state used to take ownership of strategic
industries such as railways, airlines, mines,
banks, radio,TV, tleephone systems, medical
services,universities, and important
manufacturing enterprises such as chemicals
and steel. The economy used to be
regulated in accordance with national priorities.

Today - we're moving closer to an American model.
Be selling off our nationalized industries and
services to private owners. We shall end up in
the same mess as the US is currenlt in - driven
by free enterprise - where the rich get richer -
and poverty is rampant.

To me, privatisation is like a homebuyer complaining that the mortgage is too high, then selling the house and giving away the proceeds to friends and supporters and later renting the same house at a higher cost than before.

It's the theft of public assets by a group of individuals for the sake of short-term political gain and ideology.

Despite so-called enlightened private ownership and management, Telstra, the Commonwealth Bank and QANTAS have not exactly been success stories as far as the consumer goes. When it comes to services, Efficient is not the same as Effective.

The push for privatisation and other fads like Public-Private Partnerships were actually policies promoted and encouraged by International bodies like the WTO and weren't dreamed up independently by local politicians.

Give me the top 6 anti union posters in this forum, followed by the top 6 anti ALP ones.
Let the group grow, give me 6 of the strongest supporters of both sides of the house.
Give them the powers of a Royal commission and let them look only at NSW.
After months every one of them would see and vote as one, privatization costs tax payers more for less.
And at times looks very much like the worst Asian country for kick backs and out right corruption.
Look at Victoria , yes that man got them out of debt, but sold rail even Ambulances England sold its water, gas electricity,
NSW intends to let non medical people drive Ambulances, here on blood highway the Pacific.
We must cut costs, give better services, employ only the very best.
But we continue to be beaten up by people we voted for, selling our power stations, not yet we fought and won but with only a hint of ALP in the coming Parliament it is gone.
Look see why power went up, to make it attractive to buyers.
To thieve from rate payers.
no nothing to do with climate change increased costs to profit private buyers.
I have more.

I am a unionist, proudly till death.
My view is unions exist only for members and fairness, that every fair days pay warrants a fair days work.
A flat spot in my life bought me to the then DMR now RTA in the 1970s
It was a very active place over 8.000 workers in NSW.
Work got done, drains cleaned every year batters graded , true road protection.
You could walk in to any office and see idleness house plans being drawn up not much work.
No understanding of the tasks they managed or the workers.
A change came in the 1990,s, some one at last shook the office tree.
EBA came out door staff lead in vital changes lets do it once do it right was the workers theme.
It died, office strangulation had its way.
Long ago I had became union delegate, long ago found office staff did not want to hear had no need to hear or perform.
I remember head union delegate put a crews request to management, can you sack the laborer who is drunk every day? who is in the shed now to drunk to move?
My answer? do not be so bloody silly the union would never allow it!
Not true it was our request.
ever believe other than this governments want to privatize, do not want workers to improve or be trained weeds are left in government gardens to let those who fail to understand truth say the garden must be re dug.
Give me the biggest red neck who can manage, put him in charge of ANY government run thing, he will sack more public servants than workers.
Who could not do better?
Privatization is an open door to bribery and higher costs surely if we try to keep it in our hands truly try it can work?
Former government managers are now? selling services to the old bosses, greed is endemic self interest and greed from those we let run free is shameful.

True Wobbles- and let's not forget the "success" stories like Lane Cove Road (and the tunnel beneath), and Sydney Airport (whose only outstanding features are forcing people to pay through the nose to park there).

Foxy- I think Australia will fare worse than America if we privatized- because we as citizens and consumers are simply ripped off in every sector, including purchases (our fast-food, beer, movie tickets, music, games and supermarket products are WAY more expensive, and our companies are fewer with larger monopolies)- it makes no difference to our privatized assets (except that the owners would know Australians are used to getting ripped off to the point they don't even believe in any other way)- but it will simply add to our troubles.

Belly- that's pretty sad- although not surprising considering what kind of selected senior reps in public service are placed in the positions and why...

Dear Belly,

I can understand your concern.

However, I'm even more concerned about
the current Front-Bench of the Opposition.
They seem to represent more conservative
views. Views that believe that neither
government nor associations of working people
(unions), should be able to restrict the
proper application of capital (money) in the
economy. People, in their view, either sink or
swim. And if they sink, well that's too bad.
Because in their view, welfare is not good
for business.

Still, we're in critical times and Australia requires
a reassessment of the relationship between labour
and capital, a reassessment which takes into account the
politics of industrial democracy, profit and job sharing,
and long term planning which allows for the proper
proetection and preservation of our environment.

What we don't need is the "kick-the-worker-today-and-
take-the-money-tomorrow," attitude that comes from
some of the people who are currently at work around
the place.

The only way in which the country can work properly
is for management and labout to co-operate with one
another, not condemn one another. But the sad truth
is that condemnation appears to be the only language
the current Opposition appear to understand. I'm sorry
that Malcolm Turnbull has decided to leave politics.
He was a good man - and would have made an excellent
leader of the Opposition.

Dear King Hazza,

I agree - Australia would be worse off than America -
were it to continue to go down the privatization route.
Our population is far smaller. People are less prepared to
take risks and we're at least thirty years behind the US.

So do you think if the government had responsibility to produce all goods and services, this would be more economical?

But if it's not true as to the whole, what makes it true as to part?

I also believe that the benefits of privatisation are a myth.

The point you make Foxy about the current front bench of the opposition was also true of the former Howard Govt.

Driven by it's own dogma, it's free enterprise ideology allowed it to set the dogs on workers, remove instruments such as pricing surveillance and wage indexation.These instruments curtailed inflation very effectively, basically kept business honest and helped to maintain a consensus between workers and their bosses.

"Selling the farm" was another part of this doctrine resulting in today's private monopolies of essential services and utilities. Prices rise without constraint while wages remain static.

I heard a current opposition member jibe across the floor in parliament that "we wont be able to do that again (meaning sell the farm) to get us out of debt". He was damn right there is nothing left to sell.

State Labor Govts equally guilty. But Kennett was the classic with this, and when we say selling assets we do so euphemistically.

When businesses are offered failure clauses, guaranteed by the taxpayer (if their ventures fail), that is not selling. It was "the Golden Goose". How would you like a business proposition that guaranteed a profit regardless?. Only the privileged few get access to such propositions.

You put things so well Foxy and totally agree Belly.

I think capitalism may be workable with sufficient regulatory instruments in place protecting the citizens and the environment from the natural tendency of business to act out of it's own self interest.

Dear Jardine,

Look back in history before privatisation
started to evolve and determine for yourself
whether public utilities and services were
more efficient or less. Why is it now that
everyone complains so much?

*Why is it now that
everyone complains so much?*

Foxy, because people have short and flawed memories. When the
Govt owned Telecom, they were charging me 9$ an hour in 1995,
for internet access. That is like 20$ an hour today! Those lazy
pricks sat in their offices and did not care, for they had a
monopoly.

When the Govt last owned the Commonwealth Bank, their spread
(difference between what they paid and charged for loans) was
around 4% plus. Today banks work on half that.

But I do concede, privatisation can be done well, or it can be
done crappily. It depends on the rules that go with it.
Our politicians are clearly not able to do it well, so I prefer
to trust the competition within private enterprise. Its flawed,
but not the debacle we see in many Govt enterprises.

There are good reasons why NSW want to flog off their power stations.
Whoever buys them will have to literally invest many billions of
new capital to bring them up to scratch. Somebody will have to
pay for that, ie the consumers of energy. This way the Govt can
blame private enterprise, rather then wear the political flack of
large power increases

I to think privatization is wrong.

The governements don't own the assetts, the people, the tax payers own them, as it is their taxes that have provided the funding to obtain or create the assett in the first place.

Now I have no real problems in 'leasing' the assetts to private operators who will at least get a fair days work for their fair days pay.

Now I am generalising here, but Let's face it, who recons council or railway workers, on the hole, work hard?

Privatization has become the governments way of offsetting their failures and to repay debt.

By all means sell the eggs,(leasing) but not the chicken.

We could all be debt free if we chose to sell off our assetts. But then what?

It sucks and hopefully it will cost Anna Lie her job.

Every view has Merritt including the truth in yabbys post.
I however can talk from insiders view, government management is the failure, those who should be in control are passengers.
From CEO to local area management failure is expected.
They say out door staff is the problem, sabotage their efforts require failure, and think they an survive managing nice contractors.
CONTRACTORS lead to corruption.
I have been out of bed for hours, could not sleep,yesterday I revisited a government works depot.
3 weeks ago an operator said these words
* I fear for my life every time I put that machine on the ramp, it has no mirrors I Have asked for them for two years*.
top management? said we will look into it?
yesterday no mirrors!
it is tagged out of service, if that worker had died in those weeks?
WHY are government endeavors loaded down with managers of this quality.
yabby if I got you, or me, the job of making it run better we could do it, why cannot they?
Planed required failure conversion to firms sometimes owned by former employees politicians, bribe payers.
No rubbish about unions or workers please time and again both have commited to change to secure jobs but been betrayed.

Jardine- pretty simple actually- there can be no question that it is most definitely NOT excessive as far as infrastructure is concerned.

Yabby- do you think it's because Telstra might have dropped most of its maintenance workers in favor of low-pay advertisers to harass people- hence why its services are so woefully poor, that it's so slow and reluctant to continue building and repairing infrastucture (which rural people are still waiting for), and yet it seems to rigorously call us every month with an offer that is substantially more expensive and lower-performance than even our rip-off Optus offer is (I'm convincing the rest of my household to change).

That's the thing with privatization- the person in charge *might* be a better manager than the person running it before (who is NOT a member of government but employed by them to manage it)- but then again:
-He might not
-He and his business partners and shareholders intend to make a profit above the simple costs of maintaining the system and paying wages.
-Maintenance and service costs can also be reduced by simply cutting down on maintenance and services
-The people in charge tend not to be accountable
-'Competition' often doesn't apply because the company owns the infrastructure (Telstra owns most landline networks, other groups may own roads, power infrastructure or plumbing).

And of course, the company you sell it to might be Macquarie Bank.

*I however can talk from insiders view, government management is the failure*

Belly, I agree with you, the problem is at the management level.
Nobody holds management accountable for their poor performance.
politicians are commonly more concerned with political implications,
many who work for Govt have learned that if they do nothing and
take no chances, they have a well paid meal ticket for life.

Its virtually impossible to fire a Govt employee. So as nobody
has any incentive to change the system, which is often a Govt
monopoly, nothing happens and bad judgement continues with no
ramifications.

The big cost in all these things is not profit, if you look at most
balance sheets, that is a very small % of the total. It is waste.
Time wasted, materials wasted, manpower hours which costs heaps,
nobody has any incentive to improve efficiency or change anything,
so nothing changes.

Exactly the same thing can happen in large corporations, if they
have monopoly kind of powers. But eventually those coporations will
be bought out and revamped, something which won't happen with
Govt ownership.

Yet some Govt organisations can perform ok, when a gun is put to
their head and management is changed. I gather that is what happened
to Australia Post. They were told that they would be flogged off,
if they never got their act together, which gave them a very
good reason to change and improve.

yabby in some of what you say you are right, not all.
Once government things like rail road mail even health was not meant to profit.
Young men from my southern highlands hamlet knew they had a job.
in state rail.
many would be lucky to get another job it was the plan, give jobs to country folk for life.
It did not work.
history will tell others it had to change but it did long ago.
Along with underproduction workers came those who never stopped working, nick names like the robot or the machine, men who gave all.
Numbers, governments wanted to reduce numbers, you and I yabby would have used the chance to empty the rubbish bin, yes I am unionist.
Not these foolish ones, the best the vital to get it done went first.
think about this, a record is kept of every quarrier ever used by the RTA every place it is used.
A firm contracted by the RTA to refind those lost records by surveying the roads, hired a 40 year service ex RTA worker who simple as it seems remembered they got half a million for that
We can both get real people in management rolls and get it done, some public servants are useless rejects from real work.

I can not both remain in work and openly comment on my job.
If I could, one day I will, a story about a current blindly stupid plan to betray NSW and those who care for our environment would stun most.
Here in OLO people of far more talent than me exist.
Look for a moment at privatization from another point of view.
if given the task and just the power CEO s have why could we not turn these things around.
it is wrong to say unions will not let you, above my head is my award for leadership in a changed workplace, earned while senior delegate.
those unions unwilling to let change in are going to die.
those managers holding it back, bringing in contractors, are murdering government endeavors.

Government run agencies (departments), are as
good as the elected government and the management
entrusted to run these agencies. If the people
are not happy with the operation of the agencies
they have a right to vote and elect a government
who will remedy the situation.

In private enterprise there is no such option.
The only people who have a say in running the
enterprise are the shareholders and the directors
whose only interest is big profit at any cost.

Comparing the two options, the only choice the people
have is by voting for the government that will undertake
positive action. From time to time governments do cut
back, re-vamp, re-organise, amalgamate and pass new
legislations to stream-line government departments.

Foxy afraid it is not that easy.
It was a Liberal state government that started the improvement like EBA.
They however hit the same rock the incoming NSW conservative government will, the public servants running these things have little skill/understanding, far too much self confidence.
And for the most part have jobs for life, you get promoted in the public service if you muck up enough things.

Foxy, the very idea of privatisation, is that you actually create
competition, so that people do have choices, as distinct from
govt monopolies.

When Telstra had a monopoly, you had one phone company. Now you
can choose between all sorts of ISPs, mobile phone operators etc.
That has been good for consumers.

So the secret of good privatisation is for Govt to do it well, ie
create that healthy competition. They don't always achieve it.

Even libraries need competition, so that our librarians don't
go to sleep on the job, at taxpayers expense.

Give it 5-10 years and I'll be surprised if some company can't do
the libarary thinggy far more efficiently and cost effectively,
through an ebook kind of solution. Even Rupert Murdoch acknowledges
that the days of his printing presses are doomed.

yabby your words are the very heart of government policys in this area.
Both forms of government currently hold exactly that view.
Once we pork barreled, in tough times jobs in such things made to help community's created little life rafts.
We now know it did not deliver better services or products, we no longer believe what we once did.
Contracting out in America, with its county system not states, is pure crime.
And here in our state, horrible but true, it often is too.
How many know contracts have been awarded based on friendships? on relationships with former or future work mates.
Or that costs are almost always higher product less.
It is true the very public servants who drown government workers efforts stay,they sit as unaware as ever in rich surrounds managing the may hem called contractors, free lunch's and all.
Give NSW Forests to a business man, parks to another RTA a third task them to make it work and the first off the ships would save billions in tea and bickies ,and office space.

Maybe it is because I worked in that government job.
Maybe because I now look after the interest of workers in them.
But truly I had hopes the thread would develop the ideas of reform,accountability, better management, better work out comes.
But as in real life it just did not happen, well not in forests NSW,
Never, not ever have they asked workers for ideas, ways to reduce costs, improve productivity.
Oh yes some ideas offered without invitation have been grasped, held on to for a year then placed on the table by management as their idea?
We can do better we do not contract out our defense forces.
One day we may, some place just in the last two weeks I read Australia's managers are a bit behind the rest.
Well not all of them we have some great ones, even within the public sector but in that dark place, with jobs for life live totally useless people who hide their failures by saying it is the work force,
NSW readers are invited to watch the current fiasco of contracting out key policing Jobs to, the very contractors who are meant to be policed.