Hasbeen,

What savings? you bomb out those children who don't want to be there and what do you do with them force them all to be tradies? Crumbs we have enough dodgy tradies and companies as it is.

Then there's the issue of who is going to employ them?
Have you considered the unemployment payments and the cost of running the useless job ready programs and the even more useless job clubs.

Make them so cheap they become an expendable resource? once their time is up so is their employment. Wanna guess how many times I've seen that?
part1

I remember it happening with Qantas. Wanna guess how many jobs for first year Journeymen there are in that field?

Work experience a disaster for some not all my three got appropriate spots. Mind you I used my contacts. The problem is/was that the school sent children where they could. There aren't enough takers in private industry.

As for the variation on the pay peanut get monkey approach that doesn't stack up not everyone in the world has
- a clear life path at 14/15
- not every smart person want's to teach children regardless of the money.
- if you don't have the stock now it will be 5-6 years before you do

part2
--- What do you do with the older teachers? who's going to employ them?
--- Who is going to train these money motivated smarties?
--- How are you going to determine who of the smarties are ABLE to teach?
i.e. all my children complained about not understanding foreign well qualified lecturers.
Having sat through one lecture to hear for my self, he might be brilliant but of the 7 questions he fielded none were either understood by him or his answers by the students.

After several complaints his teaching duties were changed ...pity about the students who failed. My daughter scraped through and consequently has issues about being offered masters. Despite being being the top in her year. By the way the degree she started with no longer exists as she was the only one left standing. So now the double degree she's doing gives her the maximum use of her credits but isn't really what she wanted to do.

My point there is clearly there is more to the failure than just curriculum.

What does this mean? >" the middle rank OP is 12, *with 4% of students in each rank*."<

Re your ending? When you were at school 2/3 of the things children have to learn didn't exist then. In truth the situation *is not comparable to today's circumstances*

Graham Y you have misunderstood me. I was not suggesting that science in a social context be part of the science curriculum I was suggesting the reasons for the lack of interest in science within the universities.

Popular culture mumbo jumbo new age religion whittles away at the objective and empirical evidence that gives science its credentials. You know 'science is the cause of the problem ... Scientists however do operate in a social context but that is another discussion.

An older friend who went to a catholic school when there were no books (true) and Brisbane did not have a public library ( as we know them today) and education was called Public Instruction (not so long ago) tels me the story of learning the periodic table because it was told through the history of each and why they became necessary. He has never forgotten. So how we learn, and why we learn, and wish to learn such things is important too.

Exay, the OP system, although very poor in operation, is quite simple.

Using the kids in school assessment, & the core skils test, all are rated from top to bottom.

Those in the top 4% are given an OP 1. Those between the top 5, to 8% get an OP 2. If they come between 48, & 52% of those tested, they get a 13 OP. So some with 13 OP are below the average for that year.

Some of your last post is sounding almost as arrogantly condescending as we would expect from Rudd. That makes it pretty stupid, doesn't it?

I don't know how old you think I am, but my youngest is 19, so I was still doing year 12 maths, & physics homework, just 2 years ago. Have they really discovered 2/3 of physics in 2 years, & started teaching it?

I might mention, showing the stupidity of in school assessment, judged mostly on assignments, with the smart younger one, I got excellent marks for my physics asignments, as did my wife for her english, & biology. Between us, & a little work from said smart daughter, we got an OP6. A little lower than the other 2, with their OP 2, & OP4, respectively, but they did more of their own work.

I think I have mentioned that my wife established & ran for 16 years, the P&C school textbook hire scheme, at our local high, with its 1600 kids. This put about $170,000 into the school each year, while saving the parents money. However this meant tens of thousands of books to buy cover & distribute. I have read every text book that was evaluated, or bought, for any subject that my kids were interested in studding.

I was horified to find how far the subjects had been stripped of all the hard bits. There is definately nothing added to what we studded, except in the rubish, non OP stuff.

Continued

Exay, I really don't give a dam what they do with the kids who don't wast to be there. Now we are short of labour, as I mentioned, they will mostly start work, & be happier 2 years earlier. Whats more they won't be taking up resources better applied to those who will gain from them. Child minding of 16 year olds is a really stupid activity.
The ones who count are those who want to, & can proffit by the education. It also matters to the society that these become the best they can.

If it's anything like around here, many of these so called drop outs, will be running their own successful business, often before the more academic ones are out of uni.

Another 2 years at school, & a reputation as a trouble maker doesn't help anyone get a job. A couple of years labouring, doing factory work or as a builders lavbourer will be much more help. It often also helps them to find their feet, & dirrection.

I also have no interest in running old poor teacher schools, to the cost of the kids they are supposed to be there for. Don't forget, a great many of the old ones are still the best. If they are no good, up skill, or retrain & get out. We don't need them to stuff up the lives of kids, while waiting for the pension.

I agree completely, teachers with poor english, or teaching ability should be got rid of. Yes Teachers, of all people, should be sack-able. They, not the kids are dispensable.

I also agree we have more than a little Yes Minister in some of our higher education establishments. You know, great school, if they didn't have to put up with the damn students.

One of the kids who car pools with my youngest was complaining he had been able to contact a maths tutor, since going back this year. The kid needs a little help, but the tutors never answer the phone, are never in the office, & don't respond to messages.

Like many national and international issues of late, in pursuing conciliation between widely differing views, the Australian government is damned if they do, and damned if they don’t. Again we see Rudd, Gillard and Co offending both the ‘New Right’, and the ‘Old Left’.

Perhaps those with strong views from either side should get together and make a submission about whether to include the ‘Periodic Table’ in the year 8, 9 or 10 science syllabus - or argue in concert about the irrelevance of Science as a human endeavour. It’s only a draft after all ... you have time.

Personally, I think it more appalling, and even more of a disgrace, that the bigger issues facing our education system are not widely discussed, let alone addressed!