Dear Belly,

No intent to be rude? Too late.

If I could fire myself up to do so I would take personal offence at your insinuations, but I can't so I won't.

However I wish you would stop seeing race in everything because we tend to regard such people as racist. We are talking about the state of Israel, or more specifically the actions of the Israeli government but to you it is all about the Jews and to drive it home you say “Iran a country based on pure hate”.

I have said this before on OLO and I will repeat it as often as I have to.

Iran has the highest percentage of Jews in its population of any country bar Israel in the Middle East. Its own constitution dictates that as a religious minority Jews must have representation in its parliament.

However by our standards Iran's treatment of religious minorities, women, gays etc is not good and in some cases it is quite appalling, but to single it out as the worst is hardly supported by the facts. Just compare it to Saudi Arabia our ally.

Iran does have issues with the State of Israel. But anyone who cares to remove their blinkers can not help but feel Israel is divesting its self of legitimacy at a frightening rate.

So please lets try to park notions of Jews and Arabs and talk about what the states themselves are engaging in.

Meanwhile I agree with you that if “Mossad if it did this is no better or worse than others who plan such murders”. I would wish my government had clean hands on the matter but the reported actions of our SAS leaves doubt that they do and therefore it leaves me depressed.

Everyone had better realise that we have all ingredients for another world war.We have a serious economic collapse of the West that in reality is just starting.Countries fighting over limited resources.Lies, deception by our own Govts and their perceived enemies.

Countries for centuries have used war as a diversion for home woes.The real devils in this debacle are Wall St,US Fed,London Oligarchs,and the European Central Bankers.They thought they would achieve a world govt via monetary manipulation.It blew up in their faces.China and Russia have out smarted them.The West has now no real productive capacity,and China technologically/scienticifically is out pacing the West.

The USA is left with it's enormous weapon capacity to take energy and resources.When you are left with a single tool the options are nil.

The only people who win during times of war are the bankers and the arms dealers.In both of the last world wars the bankers financed both side of these conflicts.

So all of you choose.Are you going to become aware and active thus stop this insanity or be lulled into war and chaos.

Examinator and Foxy,

I have not read Antony Loewenstein's book, but I have read several articles by him, and while he has spent much time on research, no one could claim that he is politically unbiased in this issue, and all the publications are focused on pushing a single point of view.

As far as legality is concerned, the first duty of any government is to protect its citizens. As far as the UN is concerned, the pursuit of combatants across borders while frowned upon is not illegal, but the other country also has the right to defend its borders.

The harbouring of insurgents is also illegal, in that it can be considered an act of war. (This does not apply to mobsters)

I personally have no connection whatsoever to Israel, and freely acknowledge that Israel has often been excessive in its retailiation, I cannot see any realistic alternative to its containment strategy.

As Hamas has never publically conceded that it is prepared to accept the existence of Israel, a couple of off the cuff statements by Hamas spokesmen that they would consider peace with the 1967 borders as one of the many conditions, carries no weight.

Your repeatig that this is a conflict of Israel's making does not make it so and ignores the high intensity terror campaign by Fatah from 1948 to 1967 which by no means can be laid at Israel's feet.

Since 1967 the borders have changed, but little else.

The solution can never be the complete capitulation of Israel, and idealistic dreamers like AL are only fueling unrealistic expectations.

Dear Shadow Minister,

You need to do a bit more research - I have.

My sources come not only from Antony
Loewenstein, but Dr Ilan Pappe, Senior
Lecturer at the University of Haifa, Israel,
from Yossi Melman, "Haaretz," Israeli newspaper,
from Robert Manne, Professor of Politics at
La Trobe University, Arnold Zable - another
Jewish intellectual, Alex Dafner, Yiddish
program on SBS radio, and others too numerous
to mention on this 350 word post.

I see no further point in continuing this discussion
with you Sir. We will simply have to agree to
disagree on this one. The evidence is there for
you to see - however you have to have an open mind
to be able to do that! And the evidence goes back to 1948!

Shadow,

I still think you are missing the topic and my point. As I understand you you are saying it's ok for.
- state sponsored extra judicial murder in a third country?
- Therefore, it's ok to ignore a third country's sovereign borders and laws?
- It's ok to subvert *other* countries passports system, security, trade(4-5-6-7-8-9th countries) to hide their intentions to enforce political ends in the 3rd?

It seems to me, you argument has some obvious flaws. It would seem, that at least 8-9 other countries don't agree with you, at least on the last point.
Why isn't in Australia's government allowed to defend OUR interests both terms of passports and potentially our trade and security. Or being a country in which Israel can act out their 'unique' foreign policy at ITS whim. Perhaps, like in Norway, murder the wrong person
you, or more distressing me.

BTW what legal evidence have you that the individual in question was actually involved in actions that actually killed someone?

All you have (and you are acting as judge and jury here by supporting Israel's action) is that he belonged to a violent organisation...good luck with that in any court outside of Zimbabwe etc.

Like I said your argument depends on your emotional bias.

end part one

Part 2
As for your gob smacking, understatement statement *sometimes* Israels retaliation is excessive! EXPLAIN OBJECTIVELY -
By objective I mean without preconditions or biased starting point
-their murdering the wrong Palestinian in Norway?
-the tremendous disproportionate number of civilian deaths/capital damage between the sides.
- punish all Palestinians, for the actions of a minority group (the equivalent punishing all Northern Irish Catholics because of the IRA or perhaps the RIRA).
- the clear video pictures of Peace nut being shot when there was no other local action.
- destroying hospitals and schools.
- Israel's part in the massacre of Palestinians in the Lebanese refugee camp by client militia.
- Israel is protecting key Militia Leaders in Israel today?
- Why you wouldn't support A Lebanese hit quad taking out the Israeli PM for his alleged culpability in the afore mentioned massacre.
- Zionist quasi military support for crushing Palestinian Nationalism in the 1920-48.
- why one religious group is more entitled to a homeland and those who have continual connection with the land for over 1800 years don't!
- it was taken by force and terror. Many had legal title, BTW.
- the lack of enforcement of injustices by settlers against the Palestinians.
- The in principal difference between apartheid/national socialist and Israel's justifications, tactics if we exchange race for religion?

Answer: Dodgy PR, Western guilt, US largess and money oh yes their 'god' .