We have a growing trend towards 'cutting out the middle man' in almost everything we do.

Online shopping, Ebay, buying directly from the markets, producers etc etc.

Sure, it's great to save money, but what cost is this going to have on our jobs market moving forward.

We already face possible losses in manufacturing, even before we introduce an ETS and, with retail now being errodded by these 'money saving' schemes, where are we headed.

Take retail and manufacturing out of the picture, what's left in the way of creating employment.

Just remember, the next time you 'buy direct' or 'on line', whos job are you placing at risk?

Rehctub this post seems to be out of character for you.

It is almost luddite.

Jobs lost from one area are jobs gains in another area and the improved productivity in the new area means a greater benefit from labor overall (its called “productivity”)..

Those who smashed the spinning jennys and the croppers (who trimmed the top of carpet pile 300 years ago) did not save their jobs.

Machines, operated by one man, move mountains where armies of men moved molehills in the past.

Automation has streamlined welding and CNC factory machines work faster with fewer rejects in metal work factories.

“Just remember, the next time you 'buy direct' or 'on line', whos job are you placing at risk?”

Well, it will not be the one of the bloke who is busy designing websites, a role which was non-existent 20 years ago

Or those who make shredding machines for the paperless office (one prediction which has seen A4 paper sales boom)

Of course, the Kodak factory in Coburg Vic., in an industry which was not invented until 150 years ago closed, unable to stop the progress of digital photography and Ericsons, makers of mobile phones (newer invention) is either there or near there now.

GSP and satellite makers are likewise replacing the makers of gimbles for compasses…. and

touch screen tills, they do more than the cash tills of old and also produce databases of sales transactions for database analysts to interrogate and interpret and update the stock systems of stores, reducing stock holding in obsolete lines and improving overall business efficiency

Crying the loss of jobs is a pointless task and we would all be worse off without the innovations which we now take for granted and whilst the dumb greenies would force as all backward to live like remote village Indians, living as subsistence vegetarian farmers

Let me tell you, it just aint gonna happen, now or ever.

We move inextricably onward. New inventions replacing old ones

New businesses and jobs replacing less productive old systems

relentlessly and ruthlessly in their path

It's not a problem as long as our aged populace continues to expand, because for every manufacturing and retail job lost there will be a services job created. Once we get past about 2030 things could be a little more serious, but the world is likely to be a very different place by then. Manufacturing productivity is enormous. The world simply doesn't need the number of workers employed at it as once was the case. Much of retail could do with a shakeup as well, especially the likes of JB Hifi, Super AMart and Harvey Norman, who are just bunging a margin on an import anyway.

I do a lot of sales via the net, perhaps you should try a website?

Simple- the employees of middle-man companies will gradually get new jobs (which may include online transactions- thus offsetting the supposed population shortage of employees we would need to fill for other expanding industries).
As most of these employees are students temporarily getting extra money before they get their intended job, I doubt they'd really care.

And quite frankly, I'll take whatever the best deal is I can find- I don't owe our middle men anything- especially considering how insanely expensive they tend to make the stuff they're selling.

Also, it means that the actual people producing the goods are making THEIR fair cut instead of giving it mostly to the middle person by selling them online.

The middlemen in many cases have feathered their own nest. Many farmers are now selling direct to the consumer (where possible) because they for too long have been stiffed by the wholesalers and large supermarkets.

If the real costs of production were equally spread over producer, wholesaler/distributor and retailer the middlemen would ensure their survival.

However, advancements in technology will always mean a shift in the nature and number of jobs.

Australia Post has boomed since Ebay and other online sites which has created more jobs. As others have said there will be a shift to more technological jobs but the simple fact is we will always need food, and locally grown/Australian grown produce is still a popular and conscious choice for many.

Rehctub, the world does not owe you a living.

Where we have a problem today, is not the cost of manufacture,
but the cost of getting products from the factory door to the
consumer, in a cost effective manner.

Let's face it, Mr Lowy did not earn billions, by charging low
rents!

There will still be jobs, they will simply change.

http://www.freshdirect.com/index.jsp

This company in New York, turns over 250 million $ a year, in
the city of New York alone, by giving consumers top food including
meat, delivered to their door. Consumers love the convenience,
no big rents are paid, people are still employed.

You ignore the changes going on around you, at your peril.

Rehctub, the world does not owe you a living.

Boy, wasn't that predictable. It's not about me, it's about future generations.

I could sell up and retire tomorrow if I chose to. I can assure you nobody owes me a living

Now I will give you an example.

Let's say you spend $300 on food stuffs.

1. You buy from three outlets, meat, fruit, groceries. You have helped create jobs for, wholesale staff, delivery drivers, shelf packers, preparation staff, sales staff, cleaners, trolly collectors, office staff.

2. You buy direct, on-line. Your purchase has helped create jobs for; Office staff, order packers and delivery drivers. Not much else really.

This is my point. The loss of manufacturing staff was only an example of what is happening and has little to do with this topic.

Col
How can you possibly think that automated machinery creates jobs. It costs jobs.

Everything from self serve petrol to computers at the TAB have cost jobs. Who knows, perhaps this will change in 20 years or so. Somethings gotta give.

rehctub:"Everything from self serve petrol to computers at the TAB have cost jobs."

And yet we have lower unemployment rates than 20 years ago, despite the massive entry of women into the workforce and despite the "loss" of jobs due to technology. That is because new types of work have become prominent. The service sector, whether IT professionals as in Col's example, or lawnmowing contractors or housecleaners or even dog-washers has expanded massively.

I often agree with you, but I think you're way off beam this time.

Those who hang behind for to long will lose the race.
Give someone a job to monitor an online store and you may just come out on the good side.

I can understand your concerns rehctub, but I think you are a little off track with your examples.

Think for a moment what is involved in setting up an online shop for the three examples you gave:

>>You buy from three outlets, meat, fruit, groceries<<

Now, tell me which of these tasks will not be required:

>>wholesale staff, delivery drivers, shelf packers, preparation staff, sales staff, cleaners, trolly collectors, office staff.<<

About the only position that is redundant in the new set-up will be the trolly collectors.

And since most of them possess at least one arts degree, you can set them to work designing, setting up and maintaining the web site through which you sell your products.

It's not all bad, you know.

Rehctub “Col - How can you possibly think that automated machinery creates jobs. It costs jobs.”

I never suggested it creates jobs (although it does) I merely observed it improves productivity

To the point about creating jobs….

Go back 300 years, pre industrial revolution versus post the industrial revolution….

Few people had table clothes or linen or wedgewood china or sheffield quality cutlery…

The benefits of the industrial revolution were to reduce the production costs of English manufactured linen, china and cutlery etc,

The reduced cost (from improved productivity) made the products supply cheaper, stimulating the demand from people who could previously not afford them.

That increased demand fed back to justify the employment of more people in those industries.

Similarly, GPS systems were available in the 1970s but were so expensive they were only used on super-tankers and very large ships.

By the 2000’s someone had developed a micro chip to harness the same technology and suddenly GSP’s were available for a few hundred dollars for anyone to buy.

Making products cheaper (reducing the cost of supply) changes the supply : demand equilibrium thus stimulating demand, which in turn increases the manufacturing, distribution, sales and retail staffing for people who sell GPS systems.

When I look at a Dick Smith or JB Hifi store, I see people selling 95% products which did not exist 20 years ago and whilst we can also buy stuff off Ebay etc. I for one would not risk aquiring highly technical devices where I had no recourse in the event of failure. Buying a shirt or tie is one thing, buying a computer from a private source without recourse or guarantee is a mugs game.

Lets not forget Transport, Couriers and the like. That's the business I should have started as soon as internet shopping started to boom.

I always think of the 'middle' man as the useless scourge on the whole process. They add little value and much cost.

Who really likes used car salesman and real estate agents?

Houlle “Who really likes used car salesman and real estate agents?”

Real estate agents are those who failed the ethics test to be a second hand car salesmen.

They exist for one good reason’

People freely choose to use their services.

You want a new car or a cheaper second hand car or buy or sell a house?....

You can use a car dealer or Real Estate agent or try to do a deal privately.

Your choice, no one makes you…

Unlike the ATO, who have the legal power to ensure your life is misery or all those pointless government departments..

the most useless of all being

Dept of Scorched Earth (DSE) – the blokes responsible for more bush fires than disgruntled country fire authority workers and professional arsonists combined

and

Dept of Hideous Stupidities (DHS) – that’s where those who claim to look after children give them back to their abusers to slaughter (but still claim to be doing a good job).

Don’t knock car dealers and real estate agents.. they charge for their services and you can either go elsewhere or do something different.. its up to you

Another good comparison are car mechanics and doctors…

What would you say to a mechanic, if you took your car in with a problem and he said

“we will try this, if it is no better by next Tuesday, come and I will charge you again for me to have another guess”

Well, it is quite obvious I am not getting my point accross. Perhaps I can't explain it properly.

By the 'middle man' I am more referring to 'sales staff' or 'the checkout staff'.

One small example is that of 'automated chechouts' now being used in selected supermarkets.

Sure, there are teething problems, but, once perfected 'they will cost jobs'.

Online shopping is another.

In retail you have staff and, we wait for customers to come in and buy. There is a lot of 'down time' for which staff are being paid. That's a good thing, it creates jobs as you may have three or four customers turn up at once so you need the staff to serve them.

My shop employs 5. Now if I took all the work involved in cutting, preparing, selling, packing and cleaning, I could do the work of all five myself, if there was no need to be polite to customers and display meats in a presentable manner and, there was no down time.

This is simmilar to what happens with 'on line shopping'. Orders are colated, cut and packed and shipped.

I could do the same amount of business and cut several jobs. But, is that a good thing in the long run?

You still haven't thought it through, rehctub.

>>Orders are colated, cut and packed and shipped. I could do the same amount of business and cut several jobs<<

Think about it again. You have a shop. You have suppliers. They deliver against the order you place. You have a place to store the product prior to its sale. You are all ready to "collate, cut, pack and ship"...

...but your door is shut. You have no customers.

How do you get customers in an online world, rehctub?

You need a web site. You need to find a way to attract people to that web site. You have to put your merchandise up on that web site. You have to make sure your prices are accurate, that you have the stock on hand that you display on the web site. You have to enable people to order, and pay, through the web site, and keep track of those payments. You also have to decide how far away your customers are, so as to add the right amount of shipping costs.

When you get an order, how do you fulfil it? Sure, you "cut and pack". But how do you ship? How far are you able to ship? Who will do it, and who will manage their delivery routes?

Then you have another problem, which is stock. Right now, you have a pretty good idea of the traffic through your shop, and their general buying patterns, so your experience tells you pretty accurately how much to keep on the shelf at any given time. And if you are out of stock, it's not a big problem, because the transaction is immediate - if it's there, you sell it, if it's not, you don't.

If you run out in an online shop, how quickly can you put up the "out of stock" sign? And if you do that too often, how many people will come back and visit you a second time?

Trust me, there are a lot of people involved in the business of online shopping.

And they all need to be paid.

*One small example is that of 'automated chechouts' now being used in selected supermarkets.
Sure, there are teething problems, but, once perfected 'they will cost jobs'.*

Shortterm perhaps Rehctub, but not long term. For what it will
mean is lower grocery prices, so consumers will have more money
in their pockets, which they spend elsewhere. That creates new
jobs, at the same time raising our standard of living. Only
gains in productivity can do that.

If you examine the books of the supermarket chains, which are
public corporations, profits only run at around 3% over all goods,
for say Coles. Overheads OTOH, total around 25%. Chains like
Aldi do it for less, because of overheads cut to the bone. Try
ringing at Aldi store, most don't even have a phone.

So all those retail staff standing around, picking their noses or
whatever, cost you the consumer money and a lower standard of living
then would otherwise be the case. That might not matter to you
personally, but it does to those on a tight budget, pensioners etc.

What many of you fail to recognise,is that the object of all Corporate Entities is to extinguish competition.

Globally the Corporate Elites have too much power.This is evident in the energy industries of petrol and gas.We are paying too much for it.

China is driving everything to the lowest common denominator.As we lose jobs in the West,so do our expectations of quality diminish with our incomes.

I'm appealing to the Italian producers of the product I buy from them, to maintain the quality or put out a generic inferior brand and give the customer choice.No,they are degrading all their product lines to compete with the Chinese.It is just insanity.The Chinese have them spooked and they will fall in line.

*This is evident in the energy industries of petrol and gas.We are paying too much for it.*

Arjay, most of the large reserves of energy, were in fact
nationalised, such as Saudi Arabia, Venezuela, Iraq etc.

I remind you that there are hundreds of small oil producers out
there, all trying to find some. It is not for the faint hearted,
as the costs are huge. They can blow 25 million $ on a hole
and find its dry.

If you think they are paid too much, you are free to take your
hard earned savings and invest them in the oil drilling game.

You might do well and you might lose your shirt. If you are not
prepared to risk your savings on drilling for oil, but want
others to do so, then clearly you have no reason to complain about
the price.

Rehctub “This is simmilar to what happens with 'on line shopping'. Orders are colated, cut and packed and shipped.

I could do the same amount of business and cut several jobs. But, is that a good thing in the long run? “

I do recall the days before supermarkets, when my mum used to go to the grocer, the butcher, the haberdasher, the baker, milk was delivered by a man with an electric cart, using recyclable glass bottles and so forth….

Rehctub, the introduction of “supermarkets” theoretically cost retail jobs.

I say theoretically because what the changes did was to treat the service component for what it is, a “competitively supplied service”, not “a sacrosanct process designed to employ people”

The only ones who have a sacrosanct right of employment are public servants (and that’s only because they have a particularly deviant perspective for which it is safer to keep them away from value-adding work)

What rehctub is describing is called “improved productivity from to improved processes”, using fewer people to do the same work, by the application of technology and automation.

It is the founding principle of “industrialization” which occurred at the time of the industrial revolution and as every luddite since has discovered, it is unstoppable.

Regarding your 5 staff, we employ people for lots of reasons, you must be making excessively good profits if you can employ people to stand around and do nothing. On the other hand, what you describe is called “customer service” and remarkably people pay for it from restaurants to retail stores and even internet purchases… like I bought things recently and they emailed me to say it had been dispatched and was on its way… customer service… part of what people pay for… along with the retailer and wholesalers “costs of breaking bulk” like cutting cattle into chops and storage in your cold room.