http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8356771.stm

This article discusses the options facing Obama about more troops to Afghanistan.
They range from McCrystal's 40000 which is to balance the ratio between soldiers to people instead of territory . This is based on military theory of the Malaya campaign against Chinese insurgents nearly 60 years ago in jungles.

30000 option favoured by Gates but this they expect another 10000 from Nato under section 5 self defense section.

20000 option for specific missions etc

10000 option to push Karzai into sorting out corruption and structure of his govt etc. However another article On another site questions the sense and sensibility of a western style democracy in a tribal based culture....look at the messes in places like PNG and Africa.
Give that none of us are experts what do you think anyway?

Troll title much?

If the problem's coming from the neighbours it doesn't matter how many troops you put in there. The problem won't go away.

The Afghans have never lost a war and never been conquered. Looks like they are keeping their record intact.
When will people learn?

Actually mikk they've lost wars and got conquered almost every time- including this time.
It's just that they gradually launch a successful rebellion and fought off the invaders/occupiers successfully later on.

I heard a Background Briefing (ABC Radio National) on the history of Afghanistan the other day. It wasn't just that no-one have ever held the country for any length of time. It was if you look at how things panned out in for previous conquerors we are going down the same road.

It turned out even the Soviets did a better job than we have so far. They at least installed a stable government that was favourable to them. It was a military dictatorship of course. It worked because that style of government seems to suite the Afghans. It appears democracy doesn't, and so we are chasing an impossible dream.

Chasing impossibly dreams only ends up in disappointment and disaster.

The military planers are planing to be in Afghanistan in ten years time.

What's in Afghanistan?
HEROIN !
Before the US led invasion the Taliban eliminated some 90% of popy fields in areas under their control.
Since the occupation, the heroin production has more than doubled, to some 7 thousand tons per year,which represent 90% of the total world production.
To grow enough poppies to produce that amount, you need some 500 000 hectares of land.
You could see those bright purple flowers from the moon if you look the right direction, so how come that all the US spy satellites and drone planes cant find them?
During the whole of the “war” not a single missile hit the heroin labs, where the heroin is being refined.
These labs need vast amounts of “catalyst” which is being shipped in by tanker after tanker from abroad.
There's no dual purpose for this chemical, so how come the US military is allowing the importation of it?
Not even a mouse gets in or out of Afghanistan without someone from US military let it, so how come some 300 truckloads of heroin a year is getting out.
This heroin would be worth billions of dollars, who is getting all the money?
All this information being so easily available on the UN website how come our leaders are ignorant about it?
How come that we as a nation don't have a massive debate about our involvement in this scam.
Obama has his job cut out trying to get out of Afghanistan, because whoever is making billions out of heroin trade must be high ranking oficial, whatever position he (they) is in.
Can Obama wipe out coruption ?

Some interesting comments, thank you.

I'm curious which one of the possible strategies people think will be most effective and why? Keep in mind the country people are very much in the clan mentality. They also support a feudal war lord system because they provide some security that a centralized govt can't.

Both these mind sets encourages corruption. PNG and some African countries have similar issues.

Opium poppies represent two issues and a lack of viable options.
- they are the most lucrative cash crop the people can be in
- and the warlords demand it for the same reason and often hand out the seed.

One can't dismiss the fact that this environment allows the rebuilding of terrorist training grounds and manipulation by unscrupulous with hidden agendas (including the US).

It isn't surprising that these people resist violently anything that could be interpreted as neo-colonialism. The people want the same as we do a safe, emotionally comfortable environment in which to raise their families and live.

These various troop options will increase the conflict and therefore refugees. When coupled with a potentially racially discriminative military dominated govt in Sri Lanka (more refugees) one wonders what we can do

"On 1 January 1842 following some unusual thinking by Elphinstone, that may have had something to do with the poor defensibility of the cantonement, an agreement was reached that provided for the safe exodus of the British garrison and its dependants from Afghanistan. Five days later, the retreat began, The departing British contingent numbered around 16,000, of about 3,600 military personnel, and over 12,000 civilian camp followers; the military force consisted mostly of Indian units and one British battalion, the 44th.

Despite the safe-conduct they had been granted, as they struggled through the snowbound passes, the British were attacked by Ghilzai warriors. The evacuees were harassed down the 30 miles (48 km) of treacherous gorges and passes lying along the Kabul River between Kabul and Gandamak, and massacred at the Gandamak pass before reaching the besieged garrison at Jalalabad. The force had been reduced to fewer than forty men by a retreat from Kabul that had become, towards the end, a running battle through two feet of snow. The ground was frozen, the men had no shelter and had little food for weeks. Only a dozen of the men had working muskets, the officers their pistols and a few unbroken swords. The only Briton known to have escaped was Dr. William Brydon, though a few others were captured."

King Hazza,
who came off second best IYHO.?

skeptik
have you hear about MK-Ultra?

Well I am glad it is not me trying to make the right decision.
Re the poppies, from what I have read, the processing factories were
not in Afghanistan but in Pakistan.

As to what military measures to take, and not being in any way an
expert, would it not be a safer alternative, if the Karzie government
cannot fix the corruption, to change to an air warfare mode ?
I suspect that the civilian casualties would be greater, but if the
civilians cannot fix their governments, nor their warlords why should
we stick our necks out ?

If their culture supports corruption, as being the way it is, then let
them live with it while we look after our own interests by attacking
the poppy fields, Taliban and Al Quaider from the air.

The Taliban removed the heroin trade when they were in control
but reinstated it when the they were tossed out.

I can smell a Yankee apologists here.
You blokes just can't bring your selves to admit that it is a US administration who alloves the coruption to thrive.
Is it Taliban who's importing hundreds of tankers of "cattalist" and the US military just can't find them, is that what you saying?
It is Taliban who is cultivating the fields, and the US military is just to soft to wipe those fields out. Is that right? The Us bombers wipe out whole vilages, "drones" are blowing up donkees, because it looks as if they carry Benladin, but they are to soft to deprive few druglords of their income?
These vicked Taliban people manage to take hudreds of truckloads of heroin out, and US just can figure out how they do it.
Oh wait there's more, this Taliban rascals have their heroin labs so well hiden that no matter how hard the US is trying, they just can't find them.
Nedles to say that these vicked Taliban people manage to get this heroin all the way to US and other coutries and even though the US Gov. spend millions on drug enfocement agencies,it just keep comming in. Clever Taliban, wouldn't you say so?
At last, but not least the Northern Aliance was and still is a bunch of drug lords, who were instaled by US as a new "democratic" Gov. of Afghanistan.
Don't you find it peculiar that in "free democratic" elections there's not one party which would stand on platform of imediate withdraval of US forces?
Obama Obama the worthiest "peacemaker" on planet. Watch for his next trick. Walking on watter.O what a man.