If we are to take any heed of the daily reporting of criminal activities, especially youth crime, as reported via the media, we should becoming very concerned.

The rapidly increasing criminal activities are becoming more violent as each day passes and all we seem to hear is : "the matter is being investigated" or "a school bullying policy is in place" or such similar drivel!

Society needs to have a good look at itself and change it`s introverted attitude toward the subject of crime and punishment, by discarding this bombastic and short-sighted attitude by the "do-gooders" and "societal snivellers" who are indirectly responsible for the current laws prohibiting the smacking of children and the use of corporal punishment as a penalty to bring wayward "children" back into line!

With the implementation of these stupid laws we have allowed and provided some of the lazy parents an excuse to avoid responsibility for the conduct and behaviour of these wayward children, who seem intent in kicking each other to death over trivialities.

It is time we reverted to sensible laws of parenting and made these apathetic parents accept the responsibility for the activities and behaviour of these out of control children, by way of implementing penalties against them for allowing their offspring to roam the streets and commit acts of vandalism and violence against other members of society.

If we don`t act NOW it is going to be too late to prevent a total breakdown in this aspect of our society and consequently young hoodlums will rule the streets!

"the current laws prohibiting the smacking of children and the use of corporal punishment as a penalty to bring wayward "children" back into line!"

- Which current laws prohibit smacking?
- Do you have evidence that it's children who are not smacked who are doing the violence?
- Have you looked at the research which indicates an association between smacking and later violence (and in some circumstances riskier sexual behaviour and or sexual violence)?
- How do you seperate the impacts of a reduction in smacking from a trend by some parents not to discipline at all?

Smacking is just one tool which is or has been used by parents. Sometimes useful to stop a dangerous situation but just one tool. Quite some time back I started a thread regarding the tools available to parents to discipline children and it got very few responses. It's interesting how often people want to talk about smacking as though it was the only or best tool available to them.

It's one tool which seems to be overreacted to on both sides, it can be abused but so to can other tools which attract less opposition (verbal assaults on kids can be very harmful).

R0bert

Oh dear. I have raised children for a short time, teenage children through Youth Justice. Some were a complete menace to society and I can promise their parents were anything but apathetic. Surely if smacking can keep them in line these beaten children should have been beautifully behaved.

And my own teens, well they’ve done everything bad but are generally lovely kids who spend most of their time being kind to smaller children in my household.

They know right from wrong and on occasion have chosen wrong. I think it’s called growing up.

But to place the blame at the feet of the parents – yeah maybe home schooled kids who have no form of media entering their homes and no contact with other humans.

Humans could be better off inside The Matrix?

Act now Crackup… no private schools, even the playing field and give the children some hope that usually only the wealthier kids have.

Those hoodlums are the children everyone ignored until they did become street kids and then they complained about them.

Okay!....I get the message! I have heard this all before from a myriad bleeding hearts, but what do you suggest, because we have to do something, and do it quickly unless we are going to descend into the dark ages again!

I am disgusted and sickened by the increasing attitude of violence we are seeing and hearing every day of the week by younger and younger children, who I am sure have a very warped sense of humanity toward there fellow beings, and I cannot condone this continual duck-shoving of responsibility when it comes to the subject of doing something constructive about the situation....I know the difference between right and wrong, because I was brought up that way, and yes I got the odd walloping or two when I breached the boundaries, well deserved and mentally acceptable as a punishment for wrong-doing! Never did I hear anybody babbling about "infringing the rights of the child" but strangely enough I managed to survive it all and loved my parents, my teachers and all of the "social educators" of the time!...( and I might emphasize the fact that we had a much more positive attitude and acceptance of our own personal responsibilities!)

This society is becoming a warped and twisted "politically correct" version of George Orwell`s 1984 system of administration, and if we continue in this direction we will all ultimately end up in a prison planet......and all because we were too stupid to see what was happening to us all!

'If we are to take any heed of the daily reporting of criminal activities, especially youth crime, as reported via the media, we should becoming very concerned'

I suggest the first sentence is the source of your problem.
My prescription, don't watch A Current Affair, or listen to Shock Jocks.

I suggest you look at the prevalence of video camera phones and a media who advertise for 'reader tips and videos', and CCTV to explain this increase in the violence we SEE.

When I was young... .:-) hohoho

Well, we didn't video our many many school fights and upload them to You-tube, and the media had journalists, rather than an entertainment ethos reliant on their employees surfing for stories on you tube.

Some headlines that didn't make it on to the news from my school days....

The day the class had the teacher pinned between the classroom wall and the open door for about an hour.

The day one of the students decided to cop a feel under the teachers skirt from behind.

The day when walking home I narrowly escaped a flick-knife blade swung at my face.

The day the bus driver had copped so much abuse he refused to make any more stops.

The many basket balls that were booted onto the main road from a great height.

The day the class spent the whole lesson taunting the teacher with cries of 'two buck gutter f&ck' after they had learned she was sleeping with a classmate.

The days spent ducking Chinese stars made in metal work before they wedged into the cupboards and walls.

Ah, the good old days, when children did what they were told
and if they didn't they copped a beating.
Pity that didn't actually work.

People forget.
There's always violent, troubled, antisocial kids.
There's always violent, troubled, antisocial adults.

Or maybe others went to private schools
where they didn't see this sort of thing,
and their biggest fear was avoiding a
special sermon with brother Mervyn.

C’mon baby deep breath. Yes society is all bad, it’s like watching Oliver Twist or something.

I don’t think making the parents accountable is that cut and dry.

I do think equalizing our children is cut and dry. Get rid of private schools and make them all public, or all private – whichever way you prefer to think of them. Stop waiting until they are on the streets yadda yadda yadda.

We can see it, everyone can see it.

Now who is the parent of foster children? The State Government.

The most “off the rails” kids we have are controlled and administered under the guardianship of the government. So start there… because if they can’t effectively raise decent humans then they have a damn cheek asking anyone else to.

Parents are too scared to ring DoCS for help in most instances; an out of control teenager can lead to all the younger children being taken as well.

Now when the foster kids turn 18 – you know, really dangerous, not governments fault anymore.

Other than my usual rant about DoCS… sports costs money and teens are bored. Where I live there is not a single decent park or basketball court a kid off the street can access. Gated schools? Kids used go to their local school to play in the weekends.

And get rid of the unsupported child allowance. What a load of crap, just means they can buy better drugs. I know of two local kids that have been “stuck in a trip” for days now. No, no one cares.

Before you wrote your first post, what did you think would work? What did you see that made you so cross?

Funny that all that physical type punishment didn't work.

Funny, because I can remember the 50s, & 60s, when it was safe for a teenager girl to catch a train home, at midnight, walk a mile, [remember them?] down the poorly lit surburban streets, & not only feel, but be, perfectly safe doing so.

May be it doesn't work, but it sure as hell, looks like it did, back then.

We hear, & see, plenty of answers which don't work in practice, but continue to refuse to apply the ones that did work, bl@@dy well, for years, & still work today, in places like Singapore.

Pied Piper and Houellebecq:

You asked me what made me "so cross" in my first post?....you see there you have it,...you really didn`t make any effort to understand exactly what I was saying! The answer to a lot of the problem in the first place is to avoid or reduce the incidence of children becoming "Wards of the State" thus this problem is alleviated to a certain extent!

There has to be a return to meting out punishment to suit the "crime". At the present time our judicial system is somewhat wanting in handing out penalties, and we are seeing the victims of crime being ignored whilst the real criminals laugh behind their hands as they cop a minor fine or get off scot-free with a simple warning and are then let loose to carry on to achieve greater heights in the crime stakes. It is a joke all round and it appears that to people like "Houellebecq" this modern or recent trend of criminality is the "norm" as illustrated by his vivid description of disgusting events occurring during his school days!

I was born before the WW2 and as a child listened to bombs dropping and played around Ack-Ack Installations ( note: played not vandalized as is the acceptable norm today!)
I may appear to be a goody two shoes in your eyes, but myself,( and I can safely speak for my other schoolmates) treated our teachers with respect and to this day all have been held in the highest regard and NEVER ever would we dream of even swearing at a teacher, ....so you can see that you yourself have illustrated quite openly that the children of your vintage have degenerated somewhat in attitudes and behaviour, and I should add that should we have behaved in the way that you described in your school,(which is still totally unacceptable) we would have received a damned good caning across the backside, and quite rightfully too! There was no running home and telling or complaining to the parents or another punishment would be applied for complaining about a well deserved "tanning".

Naaah. You're not listening.

There's schools and there's schools, you obviously went to one with nice kids.

The kids at my school got punished, often violently, but the behaviour persisted. My point isn't that it is ok, my point is that you hear about these instances more now, but you didn't when they were happening back then, and you certainly didn't see it on TV. You relate them to your school upbringing and think there has been a change, I relate them to mine, which was also in the past, and I don't see a major change.

Maybe there has been a change, but corporal punishment was prevalent, and PC thought not so much when I was at school. Most kids expected to get whacked again when they got home like you say.

The world has changed since you were a lad(ette) yes (not so much for me, as I'm young and beautiful and.. well... sprightly really), but I don't think you're gonna change it back with a few canings. It didn't work back then.

Look for another reason and solution.

Although, in economic terms, it can be quite lucrative. In the US you have privately owned gaols (I love spelling it that way, I'm sure you'd understand, wink) and they make the crims do work and make a profit. Then all you need is zero tolerance on crime, and all ya 'marginalised' and 'poor' and 'disadvantaged' as the PC brigade like to call 'em (wink) can be put to good use in the prison system. Man those yanks are inventive!

Man SJF better make sure the husbands of the world don't make a law about nagging or those wife-slaves she talks of will really have something to worry about!

Crackcup: "The rapidly increasing criminal activities are becoming more violent"

You have evidence of this, as in stats from the ABS of something? It would be a shame if we invested a whole pile of time belting kids into submission if these "rapidly increasing criminal activities" were really just "rapidly increasing media beat ups".

Crackcup: "I am disgusted and sickened by the increasing attitude of violence"

If I saw an "increasing attitude of violence" I be worried too, Crackup. However, the only thing I have seen recently arguing for a more violence society is your post.

"The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for
authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place
of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their
households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They
contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties
at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers.

ATTRIBUTION: Attributed to SOCRATES by Plato, according to William L.
Patty and Louise S. Johnson, Personality and Adjustment, p. 277
(1953)."

"The world is passing through troublous times. The young people of
today think of nothing but themselves. They have no reverence for
parents or old age. They are impatient of all restraint. They talk as
if they knew everything, and what passes for wisdom with us is
foolishness with them. As for the girls, they are forward, immodest
and unladylike in speech, behavior and dress."

From a sermon preached by Peter the Hermit in 1274 CE.

Obviously, the answer is to thrash children frequently. That will cause them to respect authority and to eschew violence.

Sorry crack up but your posts are over the top.
Yes each generation thinks theirs was better, but today full reporting makes it look much worse than it once did.
Why we would not even get to hear about some things yesterday that happened but did not get reported in the media.
Yes we have a problem, but it is complex and unlikely to be AS BAD AS THAT.
C J Morgan reminds us its nothing new.

Crack:”You asked me what made me "so cross" in my first post?....you see there you have it,...you really didn`t make any effort to understand exactly what I was saying! “

Do you want a slapping? Raise your voice or answer back one more time and by god you’ll get what for.

The Pied Piper: "Do you want a slapping?"

That would be the first OLO post that made me laugh out loud.

O tempora! O mores!

Cicero was whining about the declining morals and social norms nearly 2,000 years ago. I'm guessing the Rome of his youth was a particularly upright and moral society, then, because we have apparently been in a steady decline since then.

We can all remember how much safer, how much cleaner, how much politer society once was. Hell, I'm 26 and I can remember 'better days'. The problem is, we tend to ignore the good and observe the bad. Vandalism is not, as Crackcup suggested, "the acceptable norm today". The vast majority of kids I work with, at a high school of ill-repute, have never vandalised a thing in their lives. They don't rape people or bash them, either. I ride my bike late at night on a regular basis, sometimes returning home well after midnight, and have never felt unsafe or been attacked.

I think the real issue is that we have access to more information. Every time someone DOES get attacked while walking home at night, we all hear about it. If we hear about it twice in one month, it becomes an "epidemic" of crime, and we shake our heads at the unruly youth. I suspect that youth have always been unruly and always will be. Smack 'em by all means, but don't assume that by not smacking them you are endangering our way of life.

Those hoodlums are the children everyone ignored until they did become street kids and then they complained about them.

Now that's a load!

The parents ignored them while pissing it up at the local or gambling away their welfare cheques in many cases.

Trouble is, they, the parents are simply 'not accountable'. Meanwhile the 'do-gooders' have set about making the world a worse place for all concerned.

Take away welfare payments from parents with wayward kids.

No school, no cash!

Stop paying loosers to have more loosers!

Bring back national service. They can either be learning, earning or serving the needs of our defence forces. After all, we have highly trained service personel washing dishes, collecting garbage and scrubbing floors.

Meanwhile kids in detention cost tens of thousands each year to house, feed and entertain, all in the name of reabilitation.

Things at their disposal like play stations, pool tables, probobly foxtel for all we know. It's a joke, essecially when we have well behaved kids who do the right thing, attend schools and go hungry becasue our system would rather feed wayward kids than provide meals at schools for the decent ones.

The whole system is up side down!

We need some balls in governments, on both sides of the fence and stop paying so much attention to these do-gooders!

The real cause of this epidemic is is another epidemic. The flood of (academic) non-sensical do-gooders head the list. Another one is the insanity of television's mindless programming. Just look at national (yes, the nr 1 broadcaster of the country) TV every morning & weekends. Idiotic cartoons, that incomprehensibly stupid Play School, Rage goes non-stop & is being watched by morons who via a legal loop hole are allowed to have children. And then there is saturation sport coverage which totally prevents an intelligent youngster to watch & learn anything from a medium designed to be a source of information. Source alright ! Source of idiocy ! What hope do youngsters have to set themselves goals ? Their chances are on par of first home buyers. i.e. zilch ! What causes this epidemic ? Well, I've watched it developing & my conclusion is that the cause of it is the laxing of standards such as we see in the education system, law & oder & extremely poor quality of entertainment. And, of course, the everpresent over regulation of our daily lives. So, to all you social & economic "experts", next time some dill-witted reporter asks your comments please do society a favour & decline.

Individual:
You nailed it in one, and it is heartening to see that we do have a couple of people out there in this pseudo-yankee WallyWorld Wonderland, who can see reason through all this contrary self-righteous posturing by these 'do-gooders' who themselves cannot see the wood for the trees!

I can fully understand why society world-wide is degenerating at a rapid rate ....the answer is there in print from all the majority of "nay-sayers" who have contributed to this thread! This is the world that you want?....well believe me you are going to get exactly what you deserve in the years ahead, and then no doubt we will have listen to the bleating from you all when reality finally dawns and you are then looking for somebody else to blame!

I cannot understand how you people have managed to interpret my message as "beat the crap out of the child!".....I said that we need to exercise more control and mete out punishment to suit the crime! By the sound of you lot, your answer to the problem is to reward wayward children with a pat on the back and encourage more of it whilst blaming the elderly for being too strict and demanding whilst expecting too much responsibilty,...you lot in fact are the "do-gooders" in this highly emotive issue!

Na you're still not listening,

'I cannot understand how you people have managed to interpret my message as "beat the crap out of the child!"'

We interpret your message as there is a violence epidemic and it was better in the good ol' days.

I disagree and so do others.

individual,

Seriously man, the kids don't really watch TV. They're too busy talking to paedos on the internet and playing Grand Theft Auto.

'a medium designed to be a source of information.'
You sure? I reckon it's always been designed to be a source of entertainment.

'And, of course, the ever present over regulation of our daily lives'
Well ASBOs (anti social behaviour orders) like they have in the UK are not over regulation of our daily lives? Can I have some of what you're smoking?

Who would've thought it was the 'poor quality of entertainment'
on a medium mostly watched by older people that was the
reason for youth violence.

Can I just check – any of you dealing with a teen off the rails?

Anyone got one or had a few living in their home?

Have any of you done any good?

Because I’m going to ask you some stuff and see if you clever people can do some good. I’ll start with just the first three problems that come to mind.

How would you all deal with these in a 15 year old female orphan?

Lying
Wagging school
Having sex

Crackcup perhaps you could answer the questions I raised in my first post on this thread.

- Which current laws prohibit smacking?
- Do you have evidence that it's children who are not smacked who are doing the violence?
- Have you looked at the research which indicates an association between smacking and later violence (and in some circumstances riskier sexual behaviour and or sexual violence)?
- How do you seperate the impacts of a reduction in smacking from a trend by some parents not to discipline at all?

I'll also add one I missed in the first round but which others have pointed out
- Do you have evidence that rates (or severity) of youth violence has actually gotton worse rather than being more regularly reported?

What I find really telling in the arguments from some is that the only form of discipline they seem to want to talk about is hitting, when it comes to other strategies there seems to be a deafening silence.

How about some advocacy for specific funding for behaviour resources in schools rather than them needing to fund them by taking away from classroom teaching resources?

R0bert

Otokonoko,
I think you're on the right track.
My dad told stories of the Alphington (Melb) boys tearing palings off the fences to 'rumble' the Fairfield boys or the Collingwood boys (pre WW2)etc .

Keep in mind Melbourne had hoods and spivs in the 1890's CJ Denis's "the sentimental bloke". Who doesn't know about gangsters like "Squizy Taylor" et al in the 20's or the famous Sydney brothel/gangster madam (1930's- 1960's).
To me there are three differences between then and now.
- More people, closer together.
- greater pressure to consume and keep up with the Jones'.
- More pervasive media and its desensitising of the populace via its commercial need for sensation to gain ratings and thereby sell more advertising. This is evidenced by the change from information reporting to infotainment/Springer/reality TV (sic)and shows like current affair and 60 mins etc. Any similarity between the truth and these beat up shows are accidental.

TPP I have gone through that so will have a crack at it.
But have to be honest, I would do it differently than the last two times.
Last was with a 13 year old.
Sex? DOCs will not help, police can not, so lets be honest how old are her partners/partner?
make sure she is on the pill if the law can act against her partner make sure they do.
Waging school? not easy but ring every day, tell school she should be there never lie for her.
Lies? I just have not got a clue, never did have, every time I found myself in that position the girl Friends lie too, just have to wait and support while trying to build trust.
failed didn't I, well that makes three times.
oh PS crackup old mate you are not convincing me you know much about kids.

I’m a bit overwhelmed Belly.

Funny how DoCS don’t consider underage sex a big deal. I’m sure it is. The feeling around this situation is that I get handed something very damaged and when it continues to act damaged it must be my fault for not taking control immediately. And of course “control” must be passive at all times.

Crackup may have a suggestion.

The lies could jeopardize an entire household and it is easy for any government department to point finger rather than accept responsiblity. And Belly, my girl, she’s ready to become very unpassive and has left for the weekend for everyone’s sake.

I don’t like this drama, I like little kids and cuddles and evenings at home doing nothing at all. Having much washing to fold is dramatic enough for me these days.

Seriously man, the kids don't really watch TV.
Houllebecq,
just for info on OLO I talked to a TV Channel Chairman about 4 years ago. I asked how they actually do program planning for TV & he told me that they ask 12 year olds & if it appeals to them then that's what governs programming. I was gobsmacked ! Isn't that a little like asking delinquents' their opinion on law reform.
I have observed some really good kids sent to Public Schools and that was the end of the "good".

The Pied Piper: "Funny how DoCS don’t consider underage sex a big deal. I’m sure it is."

I found out to my surprise a few years ago that early sex and pregnancy is normal behaviour for girls with backgrounds like your charge:

http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/200305/absentee-fathers-and-teen-pregnancy

There are a few theories as to why it would be so. See the section "Childhood Deprivation and Earlier Pregnancy" here:

http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/200305/absentee-fathers-and-teen-pregnancy

I realise this no help in figuring out how to handle the situation. I can't help there - I don't have a clue.

PP; Lying
Wagging school
Having sex

I think you will find that this covers quite a percentage of 15 year old girls, not just orphins.

How do you deal with it.

Well 15 YO orphin girls probobly makes up less than .001% of 15 YO girls.

As for the rest of them. Don't allow them as much freedom, esspecailly after hours and be a responsible parent and know where and what your children are doing 24-7.

We did, and out two kids turned out just fine.

No crime, No drugs and they have respect for others, esspecially elders.

I say again. Stop financially rewarding loosers for giving birth to more loosers.

It may not solve all the problems, but it's a start!

Pied Piper,
You have my sympathy. I can't really recommend anything without knowing what the parents/family are like. Exposing her to alternatives may help. It is quite often boredom which sends them off in the unpleasent direction. Ask her what she'd really like to do & if she wants something senseless then you could suggest something different just for the sake of something different. For a city girl you could try a different show or visit shops that you normally pass by.. For a country girl try something she's never done. If funds are a problem make an effort to explain that they are limited. Introduce her to different people for a weekend etc. Just try to get her away from her comfort zone & open her eyes to to other things than just pop music & weekend saturation sport because they induce boredom on any intelligent person young or old. Young people need to be entertained, the majority don't know how to entertain themselves, they might think they do but they don't. The old saying "Variety is the Spice of Life" has a lot of merit.

RStuart, thanks. It is a weird situation but that link – it made sense as this small problem is already in existence. I would like to avoid another though.

You know what, I can see so clearly how to proceed on many levels and in my own style but I have no qualifications so every single request or suggestion is rejected.

So I guess the point is that even the people considered “parents” have no control over children. Which means Crackup shouldn’t blame them or expect any more from them than what they are “allowed” to do?

I want children to be empowered but not children that haven’t been raised to even understand the word.

And I am so pleased I made you laugh yesterday.

Hey Individual, I really wish I could be clearer…. Rehctub would have a coronary on the spot if he knew what time and tax dollars were going in to this one case.

You are right about alternatives and sport and just getting them to see other possibilities. But the government hinders this by giving them so much they see no need to move in a different direction.