Does anyone agree with me when I say that there is something very perverse about the fact John Howard lives the high life with countless overseas trips to receive accolades from his nemesis George Bush and countless frivelous perks..all at taxpayers expense.

His wife wasting taxpayer dollars on dinnersets for Kirribilli House that costs thousands of dollars and thats just the beginning of her little excessive sprees.

Thats not to mention all the other pollies who are doing the same thing.

So in light of that am I the only one who feels sick to the stomach when this Government then has the gall to make lower and middle Australia bow and scrape to make a living. IR laws that snatch away our rights and dictate that we play the game or lose your liviliehood.

Young pple forced to sign agreements or lose their jobs.

PPle on welfare (genuine recipients) scapegoated for sucking up taxpayers dollars and so deflect guilt for their own excesses..

This Governments Ebenezer Scrooge mentality is something to behold.

Am I the only one?

holyshadow, I agree with your sentiments as long as you are not just reserving the judgement for the coalition.

I've seen what Beatty does to workers in Queensland (and from what I've heard Rudd when he was Goss's hatchet man). All our pollies seem to think middle income earners are an easy mark to fund their pet projects. They can always justify it on the basis that we are better off than some and we can't afford all the tax minimisation lurks of the top end of town.

R0bert

Robert,

Thank you for your post.

Im not sure why you say i should not just target the Coalition.?

Is it against the law..?

Not sure where your coming from here.

I am well all aware state and federal Goverments are guilty of the same, but this Government..The Coalition, sure takes the cake I believe.

I guess along with the responsibilities of holding public office come what appear as "perks and privileges”

It is too simplistic to say that here is someone, leader of government and chief administrator of billions of dollars of public funds, look he gets to go on a trip to meet other national leaders.

I would go further, it is the small minded petty jealousy which leads people to suggest the electorate would be better off without such apparent “perks”.
Same too the small minded petty jealousy which encouraged Hawke and Keating to introduce fringe benefits tax, instead of looking at how best to encourage greater wealth development.

Before criticising one of the most successful national leaders in the world today, step back and look at the big picture
Dealing with entrenched work practices and union thuggery
Creating more employment opportunities
Managing significant improvement in everyone opportunities
I must admit we still have some problems with over complex tax legislation, so simplify it, abolish the pointless and mealy FBT.

It is like looking at a Turner painting.
The impression one receives by inspecting the painting up close is one of a lot of disjointed and irrational blobs of paint (like the inequality of small things)
You need to step back if you seriously want to understand the picture.

Col Rouge..

You lost me at'dealing with entrenched workplace practices and union thuggery' and 'creating more employment opportunities'..

You work for John Col?

I ascribe to the theory that we dont have to aspire to all the overt trappings of wealth to represent the pple in our electorate who need to see leaders are living in their realm. That theyre leaders understand the pain they go thru in everyday life.

The average worker is screwed over by IR reforms, interest rates, cost of living in general and all the excess, and theres plenty of it..goes into to Johns pocket to fund his wifes next dinner party or a new car for his son etc..you get my drift Im sure..20 odd yrs ago pollies drove themselves around...now they have drivers who sit and wait to ferry the honorouble this or that around on his important rounds of splurging taxpayers dollars on never ending merry go round.The excesses of the highlife making them fat and ill....they all look like heart attackmaterial.Fat happy pigs in a pen.

As for 'creating ' more employment opportunities..these figures are rubbery to say the least..permenent jobs now are rare...most pple are employed on contracts and partime positions..which means they now need 2 part time positions to make up for one fulltime position to bring in the same income to a household.These 2 part time positions are the counted as extra jobs generated by the economic success of Keatings economy, not Johns.Liberals have taken credit for the good work done by Keating 10 yrs ago , when he laid down the economic foundations for economic success.

John Howard has a lot to anwer for Col.

Election time coming up I guess we can expect to see more of your ilk in here.

Guess what, Holy; I don’t agree with you! The chip on your shoulder must be the size of a railway sleeper by now. Do you really expect overseas dignitaries to eat off supermarket tableware when they visit Australia?

I don’t like politicians any more than you do, but if you really envy what they have, why don’t you try getting into the game? First, you will have to start talking about “people” and not “pple” as you do in all of you many posts.

Just how bad are the circumstances that have made you a whinger and envious of what other people have? Do you really not understand Robert’s comment about attacking the Coalition?

Unless you have nowhere to live, nothing to eat and have to go without the essentials of life, you should look at other people in other countries and feel SHAME.

If you want more, get of your bum and earn it.

Holyshadow, I agree with you're sentiment in so far as I feel many pollies are rorting, especially with regard to superannuation, but let me ask if you saw this article:

http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/exmps-flights-of-fancy/2006/12/07/1165081092239.html

It's not just the Libs, and at least Johnny is a serving politician, whose trips generally relate to state business, or promoting you and I offshore.

As for punishing the working class, well your' hero Keating did a stellar job of that as I recall from personal experience, since both my father (a custom cabinet maker), and my fiancés father (a cabbie) lost their businesses as result of Keating's "...good work...","...when he laid down the economic foundations for economic success." Sorry but what a crock of BS!

How about when he allowed BLF thugs to waltz into my old man's factory (and plenty of others), threatening him with everything under the sun (including violence/death) if they didn't get their way? Nice people these lefties. :P
How about letting the MWU shut down the wharves coz they weren't happy with their $90k per annum package, to do less than nothing for a living? I know for a fact they did bugger all before Corrigan smashed them, coz I spent 5 years in Freight Forwarding living at the whim of those scumbags, while I earned $18k per year. Remember the aircraft refuellers, strikes every public holiday? The list goes on, but how many economically crippling strikes have we had since Labor has been gone? Not many, and do you really think that sort of industrial action did anything positive for the economy?
To me, that's not even managing the economy, let alone setting it up for success.
I digress.
At the end of the day, there are no saints in politics, and the left is no better than the right, but there will inevitably be expenses relating to the business of running the nation, and I'd rather we had a nice dinner set at Kirribilli when important visitors come here, and a nice car to transport them in. The expense is tiny compared to the size of our economy.

Surely it's empathy is what we need. Sure unions needed pulling into line, sure we need a strong economy blah blah. Community is in shreds
has competivness become a byword for failing community values, justice, fairgo and all that. The evidence is there of intolerence for different opinions, particularly if pationately put.
I don't care what John eats off so long as he leaves me something to eat and the time to eat it.
What has the labor party in SA done to we crow eaters, laws that cannot be policed whithout home invasion by policemen, collecting taxes with the pretense of saving our bloody lives, It's bl**dy bull dust.
We desperately need another Dunstan, in pink shorts.
fluff

holyshadow, the point of divergence is "I am well all aware state and federal Goverments are guilty of the same, but this Government..The Coalition, sure takes the cake I believe."

I don't accept that the coalition is worse than Labor in this stuff, similarly when I see Labor supporters screaming about Howards lies as though there was a clear difference between his lies and Labor leaders lies. Those issues seem to be ones where there is no real difference between the coalition and Labor.

I'd be rapt if we had a clear ethical difference between the parties but we don't seem to have that. All seem to treat lying the public as just part of the job. All seem to be willing to harm those they think can afford it (middle income earners). All seem to be willing to forgo any sense of fairplay if it suits them.

At the moment I see two points of difference
- Coalitions's history of paying off government debt (and I'm not wrapped in the sale of assets but that seems to be something they all do).
- Coalition seems to be at least trying to make family law fairer rather than make it worse.

There are minor differences in other places but I can't think of any where the whole package leaves one approach clearly better than the other. (I'll think of other items just after I post this).

I'll be interested to see how Garret goes with the shadow environment portfolio, maybe he cares enough to provide some real environmental policies rather than window dressing.

R0bert

“I ascribe to the theory that we don’t have to aspire to all the overt trappings of wealth”

I never thought the trappings of politics were so ostentatious as to merit comment, not even Downers attempts at vaudeville or the matching outfits which they all seem to get at the various conferences.

“The average worker is screwed over by IR reforms,”

No he is not.

I would recall the Ajax fastener blokes are complaining about the $12 million of entitlements they are “owed”. If I were them, I would complain too. However, let us consider what these “entitlements” are really, holidays, holiday pay, LSL etc.

Unions have fought for off pay-packet benefits, which end up as promises of future intentions.

Vast amounts of “promises” are held in the Long Service Leave provisions of employers, carried as a non-current liability on the balance sheets of companies, oh and not assisted by any deferred tax benefit, such provisions being exempt for deductibility.
Should the employer go broke his capacity to discharge responsibility for the provisions usually follows him down the tubes.

If the employee had been paid up front and not the future beneficiary of convoluted union deals, he would, at least, have been paid instead of having his benefits disappear upon his employers insolvency.

My view and practice has always been, pay me cash and keep your promises. Hence, I invoice what my client owe me (and enforce 7 day credit terms), instead of receiving any weekly of fortnightly or monthly pay packet.

As for “I guess we can expect to see more of your ilk in here.”

Posting rates suggestion I have been here for a lot longer than you.

So far you have notched up about 75 posts and guess what, I see I have cracked the Big M (oh what a misspent life)

If posting record is anything to go by, and it is, I am “around here” a lot more than you.

So, YES, expect to see alot of "my ilk" now and into the future.

Have a nice day.

I think it goes much deeper than this - there are people in this culture who believe in a class system. They believe in Privilege and they believe in Slavery they have simply learnt to market these concepts better. For example, John Howard is currently pushing 'a fair go' as an Australian value yet Australian law makes it legal for one extremely wealthy person to go to sleep at night and wake up in the morning a million dollars richer because of what has happened on the NYSE overnight while a single mother of 5 who works 2 jobs as well as looking after her kids might not be able to afford to pay her phone bill and so is hit with an extra charge for late payment - is that really 'a fair go'?

If the government really believed in fairness it would enact laws that provide it, instead it produces laws which support privilege and compound poverty.

I pity the envious, they gripe about incentive and achievement. The thing is they have neither. God help us if they ever put their attitudes into practise to form a Government. All would be on social welfare like themselves. We live in the lucky country and the harder one works and plans wisely the luckier one becomes. I suggest you get off your welfare butt and try working for yourself for a living you might actually be able to afford an overseas holiday every year. You might even lift your income and standard of life higher than John Howard. The top 5% of workers / investors in Australia would be earning equivalent or greater than John's Government allowance. The article posted is nothing more than envy. One of the deadly sins of humanity, deal with it!

Rob513264 “If the government really believed in fairness it would enact laws that provide it, instead it produces laws which support privilege and compound poverty.”

If it were simply about “fairness” we would all be healthy athletes, no one with a disability and no one so athletic as to produce an exemplary sporting performance.

We would all have the same IQ

We would all have some level of aesthetic taste and appreciation (instead of the morons who designed the building to the north west of Melbourne’s Federation Square, you know, the one which looks like is draped in a camouflage net).

No one would want recreational drugs.

No one would seek to pursue reckless and stupid acts.

No one would need to express their inadequacy by painting graffiti on my front wall.

Unfortunately, no laws exist which compensate for differential physical, intellectual or emotional development and ability.

For which I am relieved, a state with such power would certainly be manipulated by those who have an undue interest in social engineering to ensure we all turned out the same. “Unfairness” has some negatives, however, the its great benefit is to make people different and with difference comes individuality.

Individuality, a much underrated quality, in lower orders of flora and fauna it is also called bio-diversity and is considered a good thing.

For myself, I believe it is a good thing and I cherish not only it but my right to exercise it.

Philo, I would concur with your view, small minded envy is a very unattractive trait which does not merit being presented or represented in politics or elsewhere.

I dont support egalitarianism - I think it is unworkable and I have nothing against one person having a big house on the water while someone else has a little flat in the outer suburbs or one person driving a Ferrari while someone else can only afford a Kia.

What I do object to is one person having an chain of waterfront mansions, some they've never even been to while someone else has nowhere to sleep out of the weather or one person having an aircraft hangar full of exotic sportscars while someone else has not the bus fare to get to the doctor.

It is not that I condemn an unequal distribution of wealth, that is inevitable anyway, but that I think the imbalance has been allowed to go too far. This is bad for the culture - it is bad for the poor (obviously) but it is also bad for the rich because, as history attests, eventually the poor decide they are not going to take it anymore and they mount a revolution and it was 'the heads of the rich' that filled the baskets below the guillotine - it was the aristocracy who were lined up against the wall in Russia, etc.

The inference that poverty equals lack of effort is really offensive, the example I gave was of a single mother with 5 kids (as my mother was) who works her butt off and still cant get ahead. Successful people who are honest admit that luck played a big part in their success. This world is full of hard-working, talented people who are just scraping by because they have not been lucky. The tendency for successful people to take credit for the luck they have had is a sign of their own ignorance.

Rob513264 “I have nothing against one person having a big house..”

“What I do object to is one person having an chain of waterfront mansions etc”

So you do not object, to people benefiting from whatever effort it takes or what ever the fortunes of birth endows them, you just object to “how much” it endows them.

Unfortunately, such notions are impossible to legislate for.

1 You can either not legislate (the capitalist / libertarian system)

2 Legislate through tax to the point of expropriation. eg. Marginal tax rates of 98%, as was used by enacted by socialists in UK in 1960s/70s.

3 Adopt wholesale expropriation of assets as deployed by Lenin and then when some people started to reaccumulate and benefit through their own efforts, they can be exiled and executed, as Stalin did to the kulaks who recovered despite Lenin’s expropriations.

The problem with a policy of “regulated wealth” is “where to draw the line”. You suggest big house is OK but chain of waterfront mansions is not. So how many waterfront mansions is “acceptable”, 1 2 or 5?
Do waterfront mansions equate on par with big or small houses in non-waterfront locations?

The other point is, what happens to people who already exceed where you draw the line, do you expropriate or compensate them for the assets which they are no longer allowed to hold?

(This is sounding much like the debate on ideas I had with Spider when he presented his “New Wave Fascism” and to which he has scurried off, tail between legs and failed to attempt to answer.)

So I will put the same question to you –

First decide if you would expropriate or compensate – which?

Then

If you expropriate, what happens to the expropriated assets – how do you distribute them to supposed “deserving causes”?

If you compensate for them, How do you finance the cost of compensation?

How do you prevent people from accumulating assets and wealth through their own prudence and energy?

And how do you prevent the majority of people from voting against such draconian legislation?

MMM glad to see this topic generates so much passion.

Robert, thank you for your input..balanced and articulate as always.

Col rouge well paced and presents his arguemet with a seeming fair degree of political acumen.

Philo still reduced to sarcasm and put downs, not really interested in the topic or fact.Very witty.

Rob513264 is in tune with my thoughts exactly . Post a more complete response later on today.

Thanks to all so far....

Col
“If it were simply about “fairness” we would all be healthy athletes”
You have much greater faith in the power of legislation than I do.

“Union thuggery”
What about Management thuggery? Dismissal, harassment, retraction of negotiated conditions, police with attack dogs – ring any bells?

“And how do you prevent the majority of people from voting against such draconian legislation?”
Funny, I thought forcing people to work long hours in sweat shops for pittances was draconian – ‘sharing the wealth more evenly’ – that is a meaning of ‘draconian’ of which I am unaware. And I don’t think you can get people to vote for it. Even though only those with extreme wealth would be ‘disadvantaged’ and so the vast majority of people would benefit from it unfortunately all the owners of all the media are people of extreme wealth and so the weight of propaganda produced against these sorts of solutions would be prohibitive.

It is also interesting the subjects you do not address such as the example of the extremely hard-working person of whom there are many who cannot get out of their situation because the demands upon them exceed their ability to provide.

With respect to the redistribution of wealth – the Keynesian Clearinghouse concept works well although I don’t think this is original – the Jewish tradition which I think is called ‘Jubilee’ was probably the genesis of that although it would need to be updated (that was the practice of bringing everything back to a baseline level of wealth for everyone every seven years).

In the modern context I would suggest an escalating tax system – the higher the income, the higher the tax rate until eventually it became 100%. This would be coupled with a Cuban type system of allowing free-enterprise but only in businesses up to a certain scale. Enterprises which are macro by their nature such as mining, banking, insurance, car manufacture, etc would all be state owned. Such a system would not require legislation of property because the nature of income would be a limiting factor in itself.

Rob513264 ““Union thuggery”
What about Management thuggery?”

Employers and Employees form the two parties to a negotiation. A union is neither party to a negotiation, its role is supposedly agent for one parties.

Whilst you might claim “management thuggery” I can tell you, no sensible employer will risk losing a valued employee and those who are less sensible, will lose from the process.

The “management thuggery” you speak of does not exist, since neither party can be forced to remain in the contract. The union thuggery is derived from the very fact that they represent an external party whose power and authority is often best served and enhanced by setting the contracting parties against one another.

“Draconian” is a matter for the electorate to decide. I can assure you when people see their opportunities for personal financial advancement and reward for their personal effort expropriated by aggressive taxation, they too will consider it “draconian” and worse.

Keynsian Clearinghouse is merely newspeak for the Marxist debunked and defunct hairbrained theories to impose, on the market economy, collective central planning, subversively instead of through revolutionary means and as such could better be described as “a lie parading as deceit”.

Is there anywhere which currently uses the “Jubilee” economic model of which you speak? Just another theory which lacks the reality of practice.

Escalating Taxes – destroys incentive and innovation

Cuban limited private enterprise is an offensive system of repression which leads to an under utilization of peoples potential simply because, no incentive when effort does not translate into personal reward.

Trust me, remove reward and the dynamic forces of individuals evaporates and stagnation ensues.

The reason anyone still lives (if that is what you would call it) in Cuba is simple, the water is too cold and shore is too far and the sharks are too hungry between Cuba and Miami. For East Germans, their confinement was merely a wall and guards with guns, until the guards gave up and the people tore down the wall.

You theories have no hope, just ask an East German

“Enterprises which are macro by their nature such as mining, banking, insurance, car manufacture, etc would all be state owned. Such a system would not require legislation of property because the nature of income would be a limiting factor in itself.”

Actually, similar to the Labour party of the mid 1970s who lost government to Margaret Thatcher (electorates do know best).

The moribund nationalised industries of the UK, railways, steel, coal mining etc. Raped their consumers and argued exclusively in support of the vested interest of the hardline unionized employees. The position of those unions was so insidious as to attempt to bring down the democratically elected government.

The strength of Thatcher was tested and she won against Gormley and Scargill when the NUM exceeded their legal mandate and tried to force her and the ordinary people of UK to yield to their politically motivated blackmail.

Thatcher broke the railway monopoly on commuter transport and my travel costs dropped to 1/3 of what they were with the monopoly.

The nationalized steel industry was another basket case living off the taxes of the rest of the population.

British Telecom yet another, which is mirrored in Australia’s Telecom industry, one which still thinks it has some sort of divine right to exercise monopoly power.

I have seen the outcome of these ideas, it is not a green or pleasant vista, the “green” is similar to that seen in a stagnant pond. The red hues are from the rust on obsolete and underutilized equipment and the blues are the color of the cold from people denied the benefit of their natural innovative energy.

Finally a quote form Margaret Thatcher

“We want a society where people are free to make choices, to make mistakes, to be generous and compassionate. This is what we mean by a moral society; not a society where the state is responsible for everything, and no one is responsible for the state.”

She was right and history keeps proving her right.

Whenever Col regales us with that quotation from Thatcher, I berate myself for not recognising the obvious compassion and generosity evident in the opinions he expresses in this forum, and in his manner of expressing them.

Posted by Col Rouge, Sunday, 17 December 2006 7:10:53 PM
“Whilst you might claim “management thuggery” I can tell you, no sensible employer will risk losing a valued employee and those who are less sensible, will lose from the process.”
Unfortunately many employers are not particularly sensible.

”The “management thuggery” you speak of does not exist, since neither party can be forced to remain in the contract.”
More capitalist sophistry – someone with a job and commitments to family and mortgage can be forced to remain in the job because of economic pressures – like the Cowra abattoir worker said, ‘John Howard says “get another job” but out here there aren't any other jobs to get.’

“Keynsian Clearinghouse is merely newspeak”
Keynes was born in 1883 you have a very generous interpretation of “new”.

“Jubilee” … Just another theory which lacks the reality of practice.”
It was actually practiced and for quite a long time.

“…simply because, no incentive when effort does not translate into personal reward. Trust me, remove reward and the dynamic forces of individuals evaporates and stagnation ensues.”

I would like to point out that an enormous number of people do an enormous amount of work on a voluntary basis in this Australian culture. It should be particularly poignant at the moment when so many bushfires are being fought around the country and our bushfire-fighters are unpaid volunteers – I had a mate die fighting a fire in Wentworth Falls nearly 30 years ago – your assertion that people will do nothing unless there is money at the end of it is utterly offensive. Your assertion only betrays what motivates YOU – not what motivates everyone else. You display your own self-centred, self-interested and self-absorbed nature in the characteristics you attribute to everyone else – I am betting you don’t do any volunteer work – would that be right?

Rob513264 “Unfortunately many employers are not particularly sensible.”

Yet “sensible” enough to organize employment for their employees

Alternatively we could ask what “sense” is there in remaining in the employ by someone who lacks sensibility?

“Keynsian Clearinghouse is merely newspeak
Keynes was born in 1883 you have a very generous interpretation of “new”.”

And “Newspeak” was used by George Orwell in his book “1984”, which was written in 1948. The date of Keynes birth is irrelevant to the comment.

““Jubilee”
….It was actually practiced and for quite a long time.”

So was human sacrifice, do you have any contemporary examples or is it simply the stuff of myth and legend, used to amuse or scare in stories for small children.

As for “I would like to point out that an enormous number of people do an enormous amount of work on a voluntary basis in this Australian culture.”

As dearest Margaret said, in my previous quotation “people are free to make choices, to make mistakes, to be generous and compassionate.”

Regarding “your assertion that people will do nothing unless there is money at the end of it is utterly offensive”

I have always found people who determine to judge me “utterly offensive”. Peoples lives can be divided into time compartments, that time needed for sleep, that for family and friends, that for relaxation, self development and that for “work”.
My reference to “monetary incentive and reward for effort” was, as you already know, specifically to “work”.

I repeat, pointless aggressive taxation destroys incentive, to the detriment of the individual and thus the community overall (recalling a “community” is merely the collective noun for a lot of individuals).

As for “I am betting you don’t do any volunteer work – would that be right”

You are wrong.

What I do, like most of the others, I do to suit myself, not for any acclaim or glory.

I suggest if that is the best you can do in terms of attempted character assassination, find another role which suits your intellect and fits with your character profile. Try collecting your own bellybutton fluff.

Posted by Col Rouge, Tuesday, 19 December 2006 9:14:00 AM
“So was human sacrifice”
Wow, ‘redistributing wealth’ and ‘human sacrifice’ – now there’s a valid comparison. I didn’t realize I was in communion with an intellect so subtle as could grasp such a tenuous connection.

“I am betting you don’t do any volunteer work … You are wrong.”
I am glad I am wrong on this – presuming that your response implies that you do actually do some voluntary work - although the lack of specifics in your response did sound 'potentially dubious' to my mind's ear.

The issue I raised in citing 'volunteer work' was not ‘people’s freedom to choose’ but their ‘motivation in the absence of monetary reward’. The technique you consistently employ of applying the evidence supplied to issues other than those on which they are being challenged is barely adolescent.

“if that is the best you can do in terms of attempted character assassination…”
Assassination would be redundant for someone who so consistently shoots themselves in the foot.

Rob513264 “Wow, ‘redistributing wealth’ and ‘human sacrifice’ – now there’s a valid comparison.”

The comparison is simple and not “wowserish” at all; neither have any contemporary support or examples to give them currency.

Most particularly your notion of “Jubilee” has only been practiced in recent times in UK, a celebration of her Majesties 50 years on the throne of England and the British Empire (As represented by the Commonwealth), such as it is. It had stuff all to do with wealth redistribution.

I do not answer to the woefully ignorant who question my veracity because of their own lack the manners in accepting my response regarding volunteer work. That you doubt me confirms your own untrustworthy nature and lack of character.

Regarding “‘motivation in the absence of monetary reward.”
As Dearest Margaret said and I keep quoting

““people are free to make choices, to make mistakes, to be generous and compassionate.”

volunteer work and the ‘motivation in the absence of monetary reward.” Is merely one way in which some people express their “Compassion” and “generosity” of spirit.

You are probably having issues dealing with such concepts, so foreign they seem to be to you.

“Assassination would be redundant for someone who so consistently shoots themselves in the foot.”

Oh the churlish snipes of the wannabe. You could probably shoot yourself in the head with a shot gun and still not hit a vital organ.